Cormyr and the Dalelands

As it is, Druids have one real gimmick on the server that revolves around being a bubble of death to things without death spell immunity.

Some options that wouldn't require hak updates (I believe?) would be altering a few shapes as far as merged items go, and adjusting magic fang/greater magic fang: Elemental Shape really only merges helmet, armor, and shield currently. It could stand to include gloves, and possibly jewelry. While elemental shape is fairly decent in several regards (air elemental has fairly substantial AC, and decent attack) it is not really comparable to anything else with similar level investment.

The primary reason glove merging would be best is if some enterprising scripting also improved the likes of Greater Magic Fang to augment gloves for the fact that it should.



The note about lethal/nonlethal could be ignored since NWN never made that distinction.


I'm Allatum, I play a druid and am greedy for any improvement whatsoever.

Can I add it would be nice if they got the same token certain folks get that allows them to altar shape at will... at least at the correct level to represent Mask of a Thousand faces. It wouldn't add any real power boost to the class but it would be nice still.

Shifted forms and their properties are actually tied to the polymorph.2da, so there is not much I can do there with just a standard update.


The Magic Fang change could happen, though I'd need to check that it can self target, as players don't normally have natural weapons and thus would normally not have reasons to cast it on themselves.  If it cannot, then that will also need hak line alterations.

It can, I believe? I could pull scripts from another server for reference and PM you if you'd like? The script in question changes it to work on gloves (as bracers can't have attack, damage, or enchantment bonuses on them.)

I noticed entangle, grease, and murderous mist don't function. Does this mean that stonehold and storm of vengence are also not functioning? I don't see my druid shape shifting and the like, but it may be nice if their spellbook could gain some beef if their signature spells aren't able to function. But I don't know exactly what their spells are or if the ones in the player help section is up to date.

Because of the scripts our server uses, many AOE Duration spells - such as the ones you listed along with things like Cloudkill and Black Tentacles - either do not work or do not work completely property. Unfortunately, there's not really anything we can do about that, as far as I'm aware.

Storm of Vengeance seems to be the exception to this rule, it seems to work fine.

Those spells all work just fine.  Though Murderous Mist may have an issue I don't recall.

I've never seen them work, myself. I recalled something regarding the heartbeat effects not going off properly due to our scripts. Otherwise my mages would definitely be using Grease and BT more often >_>

Oh, well, I'm not sure. I've ran goblins in Hullack a bunch in the passed few days, and I tried using all those spells, and after maybe several dozen spammy tries, I think I got one entanglement roll. It's ok, though, I just did not know or understand. Murderous Mist gives concealment to enemies and allies as the spell says, but it does not roll for damage initially, per round, or for blind.

I was just curious because many of druids best spells/ high level spells are per/round, so I wanted to know if I should change my conjuration focuses to something else, maybe.

I know I've used grease with it working fine.   All of our persistent AoEs seem to have network based lag.  I do not know why.  It isn't like we've altered them in any way.

Mmm, that's alright then. For more caster oriented druids then, would it be possible to buff their companions? Nature's favor seems really powerful, but I think it caps out on a dire tiger summon(summons seem really powerful here), but a druid's companion would be an easier way to scale a "summon" without adding more. Or maybe more high level animal based summons instead of all the elemental options at higher levels?

Otherwise, it seems as the OP suggested in that many of their "reliable" spells are gimmicky death spells (drown, finger, slay, this uh, bubble of death thing, whirlwind, etc). Then again, it may be my fault as a character builder. Druids are pretty strong as melee, and I chose to forgo that possibility and go full caster(6str gnome =().

I have no plans to adjust either Druid or Ranger Animal Companions, or Wizard Familiars.  Doing so involves altering 30 creature templates (one per possible level) for -each- companion or familiar type.

Ok, thanks for the insight.

I've found that Lightening is fun for a caster Druid, especially since Vince altered damage spells so they level up as well, and Natures Beauty remains a must have for all caster Druids, it remains useful in many dungeons, since a lot of mobs and even some specials have low Will saves. ((Especially good against roguey type badguys)) All in through your going to have to accept that your not as scary as a wizard or a cleric. Druid remains the weakest of the Caster classes I think. On the other hand, I find playing a Druid the most fun, when chances to roleplay it come up, a Druid has a different PoV to most chars

I'm going to ask again about an Appearance change Widget to represent the Druids Mask of a Thousand Faces ability as a simpler addition it doesn't really add any combat prowess but it seems a fun roleplay aid.

I normally try to avoid conversations like this on the forums since it often divides some players with staff, especially staff who work every hard for what the server has, but I'd like to throw some overview from my perspective so far playing a druid. I'd like to start with this disclaimer, however.

I am not a high level. I can see the custom spell list, but I don't know all the end game dungeons or high level spell lists. I do not know if druids rely on grouping with other casters to synergize what they have. I've tested some spells recently with a player and spoken with them about Druids. That's pretty much it. I am not a scripter. I know this isn't a triple A mmo with a team devoted to balancing.

Overall, druids lack any synergy with their own spells. Each of their strengths are hamstrung by spells that do not work or spells that are completely absent or untouched. Solutions to their problems seem unworkable or too much work. It would be nice if we could put our heads together to make them continue to be unique without feeling as though we're making a sacrifice for our preference of roleplay and character creation. Let's try to work on buffs that do not make druids similiar to other casters, but maybe something that amplifies druid's current kit which would less likely create some drastic overhaul for admins.

With that said, I'd like to post what I've found so far, and I'd like to restate that I do so with some hesitation and I do so with respect to the current build of the server and its workers.



I'm not sure how to script a "switch" to fix the heartbeat issues plaguing the current AoE spells that rely on per round calculations to function, but I know it can be done. I believe this is the only server I've seen that has had the problem, but I've only played on a handful of servers since 2002-2003. Since Vincent has said he isn't sure how to fix it, let's try and figure out other ways to strengthen druids while not excluding build diversity. I will go through my small spellbook and list some spells I think are usuable and bold others I think are usuable by have a synergy problem with how currently druids operate.

Level 1 spells: Endure Elements, Summon Creature 1, Ultra Vision, Camouflage, Sunscorch, and Nature's Favor are usable spells. At level 9, most of them because pretty lack luster besides Endure Elements and Nature's Favor. There aren't any cantrips to take advantage of metamagic, so it's a pretty uneventful spell circle and the one that could see the most improvement for utility, I think.

Level 2 spells: This spell level is perfect! All of the spells are usuable and have great RP variety. I see many custom spells added and vanilla spells added to make the class comparable to others who can buff stats and the like. This seems to be my busiest spell level, and spell slot rings help much with that.

Level 3 spells: Call Lightning, Protection from Elements, Quillfire, Summon Creature III, Elemental Weapon, Icelance, and Spikes seem to be the real winners here. Call lightning is obviously one of the druid spells that sees the most applause, even at later levels. It's a great, party friendly spell, and I believe it's fine. Quillfire is a great spell as well, but I believe it could benefit from the scaling damage buff that other spells have taken advantage of. The Direwolf is great, and it's where I noticed summons were really beefy, but like any summon, its utility and "useability" is gated by the character level and its design, so its generally unused by the next spell level. Icelance seems to be a useful spell, but it is missing a school tag, so I'm not sure what to focus. Spikes is a great spell in counter to GMW.

Level 4 spells: Again, all of the spells could see play here(besides Murderous Mist, unless that was changed to just be a fireball type spell with a blind). However, at higher levels, I could see only Freedom and Stoneskin seeing play. Languor has potential for greatness, but I'm not sure the DC on it could be useful at higher levels or not. Trash in dungeons tend to die very fast, and bosses tend to be immune to stat decreases or have high saves to avoid mind spells/ death spells. Flame Stike could see play if only for its small divine damage portion, but that's not the best design or beneficial to the class or party(since they may take that divine damage too if aim is off). 

Level 5 spells: A strange level of spells. This is where druidic spellslots start to really suffer. Cure Critical Wounds is pretty much off the table due to the restriction on spell slots. Death Ward is probably also off the table since I imagine there's scrolls and the like that can cover that. Slay Living is a great spell, but it has the stink of necromancy on it. Spell Resistance seems to be the obvious choice for this circle, but its a bit situational. The Dire Bear summon has had a permanent home for me so far. Wall of Fire is fun, but it only triggers once, and that's when an enemy walks through it. With some party coordination, this maaay see play, but I'm sure initiating with one ice storm will net you more secure and higher numbers. Inferno is a great spell, its downplay is that it has spell resistance checks and tends to be useless on trash and impossible to use on bosses. It's weaker than combust's damage, but you only need it to stick once to get its full damage. Vine Mine seems to only be useful to giving more bonus to the Hide skill. Monstrous and Trollish regeneration last too few rounds when healkits are plentiful and cheap. Baleful Polymorph is interesting; I think this is a flavorful and neat spell. Stormshield seems to be completely absent of practical use except for grouping under a dragon's breath or an electrical trap. And in general, it would be much smarter to spread out. It doesn't function as it says it does on the forum's custom spell list(absorb damage then let it back out), and in general, a single protection from elements surpasses it in every way. 

Things I didn't mention: AoE spells(we get it!). Magic Fangs/ Awaken(companions, as stated above, are remaining untouched, so let's accept they aren't going to be combat viable even at level 3; my poor badger got destroyed by rats.) All the Hide buffs/ One against nature. Great spells, and I had to take a rogue level to take advantage of them; I wish I didn't, but I feel it's important to survive in combat while using healing kits on people without access to invisibility or sanctuary. Shapeshift spells. These seems purely for RP. I'm not sure why a druid would want to shapeshift into a werewolf or werecat, but regardless, its stats were poor, even buffed, compared to a fighter of equal level. 

Bolded spells: I put these in bold, because they highlight what I said earlier about synergy within the class. Nature's Favor is an extremely good spell; and it's one that scales into higher levels fine. However, after level 6 spells, druids run out of animal friends to buff. Their companions remain around dire wolf strength, and while dire tigers can be buffed very well; I'm sure their AC and AB(immunities, resists, SR, attacks per round, saves) will pale in comparion to higher level summons. 

Spikes is a powerful spell, but I almost feel punished as a player who didn't chose a tall legged race, because it only affects clubs and quarterstaves. I can never take use of it, unless I reroll human. One weapon is unavailable, and the other uses strength modifier. The spell seems to be a staple for druids to make them competitive to melee clerics or fighter types while buffed and maybe after dispelled, but it has a strange race restriction, and I don't think I've ever seen a martial character make use of clubs or quarterstaves, so I don't think it's a completely altruistic spell.

Languor, as mentioned, is one of druids many spells that function on disabling enemies. Since we're not including Druid's AoE spells(grease and stonehold especially), spells like Languor seem more important for utility. But it's likely they won't see play due to immunities on bosses. If there's one troublesome spawn that spams KD with high AB, then it could be great! But I don't know if those things exist without lots of buffs, deathward, shadowshield, or construct/ undead. 

Overall, much of the druid's spellbook seems to be a placeholder waiting on a fix or untouched because of a lack of druidic presence on the server. They are punished by unfunctioning spells that druids have always relied on to be relevant in combat and a lack of spell variety and slots. This makes caster druids inferior in damage to wizards(not a terrible thing, but the comparison tilts me a bit) and utility to clerics(largely the same buffs but far less spell slots/ prayers and the like). Generally the class fantasy(I'm sorry WoW-fans) is wizards damage the battlefield, clerics aid the party in doing their jobs better and fix mistakes, and druids control the battlefield. Right now, druids lack any identity as a caster, seem to be race-restricted from their best melee buff, and shapeshifting in general is a poor alternative for going melee unless you need a specific immunity against a boss while you both fish for natural 20s.

What can be done? Well, lots could be changed. But I'd like some input from people who are much smarter than me about these things. I'm playing a 6 strength caster druid who almost solely relies on her bear with nature's fury and a spot casted spell resistance in case a caster pops up. I have a gut wrenching feeling that's not going to be viable later on since, both, parties tend to frown on summons, and I won't be able to beef up higher level summons the same way. So, I'm not using all of my charater's tools. I can't see Frana turning into a bear, really, or a water elemental. But some characters love shapeshifting!

My little suggestions are changing higher levels summons to include the same tag that checks for alignment on planar summons. Give Druid a specific tag that lets them summon an stronger animal type that lets them take advantage of their druid specific buff to make up for the fact their missing their companion in combat at higher levels.  

Maybe let Spikes target a mace or a sickle or another "small" weapon that smaller races could make use of. 

In general, let's not be afraid to change spells to make them more useful on the server or delete spells that aren't functioning. Right now, it's definitely trying to cram a square peg into a round hole with druidic spells, but it doesn't have to be. The spellbook sort of reminds me of having a giant spice rack that signifies an endless amount of flavor and unique combinations but only knowing how to make mac'n'cheese. Haha. Maybe it's best to just leave the salt and pepper by the stove.

And? Not all Necromancy spells are evil. Slay Living doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. There's no rule against druids using necromantic or death effects. Otherwise the spell wouldn't be on their list.

This is a personal pet peeve of mine that a lot of the NWN playerbase and the D&D community in general seems to have this mistaken idea that Necromancy, as a school, is all evil.


This isn't my experience. Wizards tend to be the battlefield-control types in 3e/3.5 D&D/Pathfinder. Wall spells, Black Tentacles, Pit spells (PF only), Grease, Web, Cloudkill, these are the classic battlefield-control magics and they're all Wiz/Sorc spells. Sure, you can play a blaster mage, and they're a lot of fun. But they're not the most efficient use of a wizard, at least in PnP, compared to having them be the battlefield-control guy.

Not that any of that really matters in this context, as the best battlefield-control spells in PnP either don't exist in NWN or don't work very well. See again Black Tentacles, Grease, Web, Entangle, and so forth not working so great due to something on our server, and even when they do work the NWN version of them is less than impressive.

The main problem with Druids in NWN is that they don't have access to 99% of the stuff in PnP that makes them great, and/or what they do have is severely nerfed in NWN. Primarily Wild Shape is the best example: it's nowhere near as awesome in NWN compared to how it works in PnP. A lot of their best spells are not in NWN, and because of the way they work they can't be added, the spell's effects just won't work properly in the NWN engine. Summons don't work as well as they do in PnP because NWN limits you to only one summon and you can't buff your animal companion with gear, which causes them to really lose usefulness before around levels 10-12.

A lot of the trouble of fixing druids just comes to the fact that no one has any idea what to do with them. Just pulling from PnP won't work, and we're logically reluctant to just make up things out of whole cloth.

Actually, as far as I'm aware, Spikes was altered to affect Scimitars and Sickles as well.

 I just tested, and it doesn't. But thank you for your insight!




Ah, of course there isn't a rule against it. There are many druidic deities. I don't know if there are house rules or server specific rules, nor do I know if I'm correct in my assumption, but I've always assumed praying for negative energy spells which come from the negative energy plane to a non-evil deity wouldn't be favorable, even if the deity has plentiful capability of granting them and the druid him/herself using them. I love infestation of maggots! I think that spell is great, but it's often a pvp only spell, as most things die long, long before all the saving throw failures. Thanks for your input, though. I appreciate it.

Please don't hesitate to post thoughts and ideas. We certainly don't want anyone to feel like they can't add in their thoughts. Ultimately, we're all just a bunch of people playing a game. Ultimately, it does fall to those of us who are admins to make choices about things, because someone has to, and we're the ones who'd do the work to make any changes anyway.

We do also change our minds about things. There are many things in the game now that were rejected by the admins in the past for one reason or another, only for us to decide over time that "you know, that's actually not such a bad idea after all." Thus, don't be too worried if we don't agree with you right at the moment. It doesn't mean we don't hear you. I certainly don't think any less of anyone who's posted here (or in similar threads) as a result of that, even if I may not agree with their suggestions or view of issues.

Really about the only thing that annoys us is repeatedly banging away at the same thing after we've explained why it won't work. In some cases that's not because of the contents so much as getting tired of repeating ourselves.

I've been looking over sources for spells, and the easiest to translate seem to be these:

www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm

www.anmanindustries.com/anman/stuff/dndconvertable/DrdSpells.pdf

Things I think could be interesting without depending on heartbeat:

2nd level: Fire Trap. I think this spell could be useful in a variety of ways.

3rd level: Wind Wall. This could be an interesting aura spell similiar to how Stormshield is scripted. It could give a small flat reduction to piercing weapons or concealment to arrows(like protection from arrows?).

5th level: Wall of Thorns. Vine Mine could be changed into this. It could be a trap or symbol based spell that does acidic damage with a chance to paralyze.

And the nature guardian spells could be merged into the current summons, and use a "druid" tag similiar to how the planar ones use an alignment tag. There are legendary(epic HD) animals like bears and tigers that are a step above dire tigers and bears. Their size catagory could be bumped up one catagory and stats adjusted. They'd still have all the vulnerabilities a non planar summon would have, but they'd have the unique benefits of being buffed by druid-only spells.

That's a house rule at best, but more likely a common misunderstanding or mis-assumption. With a few very specific exceptions like Eldath with her pacifism, such spells are not anathema to most druids or druidic deities, or spellcasters in general unless they have a personal reason for disliking or fearing death magic or negative energy.

Negative energy and the NEP are not evil in and of themselves, they're neutral forces, no more than positive energy and the PEP are good (and you can die just as easily from the inhospitable climate on both planes). The commonly-held idea that negative energy itself is evil because of how undead thrive off it, living things wither under it, evil clerics channel it, and several [Evil] spells make use of it is a long- and widely-held mistaken belief.

That's interesting and useful information. Thank you for that. 

Unfortunately, most wall spells won't work right in NWN.    Any that should be solid, block movement, LoS, etc, we really can't do.

Others might be doable, but there aren't really any visuals for them that would give any sort of accurate representation of the AoE.

Any feedback on higher level summons or adding a small weapon to the Spike spell?

A hak-less server I once played on had a totem Druid mechanic, you could opt to forego the standard shapechange ability in exchange for single, totem form. This form physically grew with level (example from small  wolf to big wolf to dire, etc) and had different forms (Mirroring all the companion types) and a stronger progression than standard forms in trade for versatility. It also changed the form of all summon creature spells to the totem form (not their specs, just morphed their shape and renamed them upon summon) and determined which summon you could choose at level up. It was pretty impressive to see a totem Druid stalking around with their companion and a summon all looking like a small pack.

There were no changes that were required on the client side, since it was hak-less, though I'm not aware of the scripting required for such a feature. It is apparently possibly entirely thru scripting however.  

I do like the thought of giving the Druid an alter self widget at 14th to mimic the thousand faces ability.

Could we mimic another signature p&p Druid ability, that of spontaneous Summon Creature, by giving them a widget that levels up with the PC, that would give them X number of Summon Creature I-IX as appropriate? The idea of a Druid as a force of nature, commanding a swarm of allies against an enemy is a powerful image, even if more image than power.

To keep this short and simple (i'm on my phone) the main issue with implementation on something like that is scripting. We'd have to either cook it up from scratch whole-cloth - and our scripter's plate is VERY full right now - or have someone provide the scripts from another server and hope they don't explode anything of ours when added.

If you can get your hands on the scripts and pass them to the admins, we might be able to look at something.

Something like that would be two parts actually.  All of the scripts, as well as the needed creature templates.  The short of it is, it's a lot of work to implement something like that.