Cormyr and the Dalelands

So I'm coming back around to this topic, because it needs reiterating, again.
Where to start? Honestly I'm not sure anymore, so bear with me here.

There's a lot that builds into this, and I'm not going to go into the specifics, but let me try and clarify a few things here.

The first is that everyone playing here - we're all adults, and we need to act like it. I and Vincent cannot be called in to settle every minor disagreement. This is a shared game world we're all playing in, and there's a reason the two primary rules are "Common Sense" and "Respect". It feels like both have been in short supply of late. And while yes, I can step in when I'm needed to arbitrate, my patience, and my time, is ultimately a finite thing. The more it burns down the less energy and interest I have in playing, let alone trying to take on big projects like adding areas, features, running events, or scripts. I speak only for myself in this, though I'm pretty sure it's much the same for Vincent, and I know it's mostly that way for the DMs who'd rather be storytelling than breaking up arguments.

The second is that I'm going to reiterate that we're not going to ban people simply because others don't like their character IC. It's not that sort of server, though I think people may have somehow gotten the mistaken impression that it is. Characters don't have to get along, and indeed, some level of rivalry/antagonism is something I see as highly desirable. What's not desirable is the fact that it seems to instantly proceed to OOC hate of the player behind the character.

Now, certainly we're wary of the kinds of OOC bullying I remember from the old pre-CD days on MD. If we get to feeling like a player/character is taking that tack, we'll handle it... but let me state that nothing I've seen in any of CD's recent past even comes close to that sort of hostility. Having an argument in a common area, even one that turns to RP fighting (or even engine combat) is vastly different than being constantly hunted by someone who believes your character is wrongly played/doesn't belong and has decided to 'take justice into their own hands' because the admins won't.

Where does it end? I wish I knew. This isn't something I can easily untwine by removing one player, because this whole problem, and the underlying attitudes behind it, seem to be pervasive throughout the server culture somehow... and I'd prefer to not just shut the place down and try to start over, since I don't think there'd be much starting over at that point.

I have a good idea where this is stemming from.  And I have ever since joining this server been more than willing to accept IC consequences for IC actions.  I've been forced to inform people of this in tells a few times of late.  My character does get punished, when he does stupid shit.  People may disagree, but I'll remind you he was once a Knight and is no longer.  I wasn't ooc'ly punished, much to the dismay of a few I'm certain.  I'm intimately aware my play can trouble people at time, and I attempt to give those people a great deal of leeway in response.  Sometimes, patience run out.  I apologize to anyone who's feeling bullied or ooc'ly antagonized by me or my character.  I don't go out of my way to do so; though I will admit there are times when I feel it is IC'ly warranted.

Just do as you want, as long as you don't break rules.  

As someone who was antagonized for a long time for decisions I made and characters I played,(Elf still only RPs with Marziima with threats and death glares! He must hate me!) I can say there are alternatives around it, and the server is a million times better and more friendly to newer players than it previously was. However, as the average server population is lower, this family can split comfortably into one or two groups at times and may not be easily accessible to everyone. This isn't something that can be fixed, but if you're relatively new to the server, please take this issue OOC with the players if you can. Most of us -want- to help you and -want- to RP with you even if your character is the opposite. We'll fine -something- that works, even if we have to roll another character or make up something to give some common ground.

tldr; please approach us OOCly if you're frustrated ICly. If people can help you they will. If they don't, try someone else. We want all the players we can get. Unless you're awful.

Oops. Should I be here? ;-)


~Arya

Postscript: Will come up with something more serious when I get home from work...

IC conflict is fine.Enjoyable even (though not for some) its when it crosses the border into OOC harassment that I have problems with. No I don't think a single instance should result in banning, but repeated instances should invoke a scaled response that yes can lead to banning.

OOC comments regarding the way a player plays their PC, questioning whether a player is " Retarded " or similar comments either in open of tells do not belong on this or any server.


Have respect, get respect. Give none, don't expect any in return.

Okay, so as the person on the other side of the coin as Dom and the one that seems to be the sounding board for most of the complaints people have about him, let's try to work this out productively.

We all know Bass is a troll, an asshole, and a bully.  They are, arguably, defining traits of his character.  And asshole characters aren't all bad - I play one myself on another server and find a lot of success with it.  The problem is that people tend to interpret his out-of-character actions through the prism of Bass's in-character actions because they don't know him well enough to think he's doing anything other than being a dick to them as a player, something not helped by the fact he occasionally does things that are extremely easy to misinterpret as OOC hostility or harassment campaigns.  I should know, I've been the target of one in the distant past, and I did take it as an OOC harassment campaign because Bass and his followers at the time (Aetrus and Janga) would seem to go out of their way to find Aelie and bother her even if she wasn't doing anything.  Especially if she wasn't doing anything.  Why?  Because I considered it IC on Aelie's part to respond to them, thus continuing the cycle of trolling until eventually I got too frustrated to bother with it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that different people have different tolerances for certain types of behavior.  What's good IC fun to some people is something other people don't want to deal with OOCly, and these people may not speak up about it immediately if they suspect the first group isn't going to listen or even if it breaks character.  If you push people too hard with antagonistic behavior or overreact to minor slights when all they want to do is log in and have fun, then they're going to assume you're targeting them specifically and they're going to get upset.  Example, me.  I'm a paranoid sort so I'm very quick to assume OOC motivations for a lot of things and I tend to see enemies where they're not, so I have a very low tolerance for player antagonism before I start feeling targeted.  Depressed players who are playing for an escape may not tolerate any sort of antagonistic behavior well since it's dragging drama into something they want to have fun playing.  Further, someone so offended is going to complain to their friends about it and it's only going to spread like some sort of virus, splitting the server into 'for' and 'against' groups until one group leaves in anger and frustration.  This causes a -lot- of problems and misunderstandings, since the people who hear about the bad things going on may be totally disconnected from the people who can do anything about it, and because of the presumption of OOC intent they're not very likely to talk about it since everyone knows acknowledging a 'troll' is getting to you is essentially an admission of defeat.

Another problem occurs, interestingly, with IC groups.  If a group is big enough and contains enough people, then anyone not in that group gets left out of anything.  There was a perfect example tonight, with Bass gathering a hunting expedition.  He invited everyone nearby...  except for my character.  Now, here's the thing - Even though I know he had an IC reason to not invite her (half-fiend and aasimar) it still pissed me off because I knew it meant I was going to have absolutely nothing to do until that group got back because everyone else was in it.  This breeds resentment when it happens often enough because it looks like an attempt to isolate someone and bore them off the server.  This is one of the more specific complaints I've heard lately from others as well, so it bears mentioning.

I know one player who has almost definitely quit and three more who are seriously thinking about it simply because of this ongoing problem.  I have a definite interest in getting this resolved for the continued health of the server.  So, let's talk it out.

I have absolutely no idea what's going on here, but allow me to offer some advice:


1.  Pretty much all people will be fairly receptive to something like:

"Hello Friend, I do not care for this line of RP, how about we do [insert other idea] or maybe you have an alternate idea?  Just not my cup of tea, yaknow?  Lets meet in the OOC room and talk it out."


2.  Get over your own stubbornness in disliking that person/character or assuming that they're not willing to be friendly and send that tell!



I came to this server back in beta (7 years ago?).  Problem began to arise for two of the people I arrived with and they didn't do either of these things despite my suggestions to do so.  They were both eventually banned, which is quite an accomplishment for CD.  

I agreed with most of your post up until this part. You told me the group was way too big for you to come along. If you really wanted to go, you could've asked. I don't know the relationship between the parties, but it's better to ask if you want to go somewhere. I still have to do it all the time, or I'll ask just for clarity if I'm assumed to be invited anyway.

I understand not being invited or understanding my characters(RWs) aren't welcome in outings, but it's still better to present the situation vocally, ICly, sometimes. Even if it's met with a no or some kind of insult, it's a small gateway to progressive RP in a relationship type of way. You could eventually chip your way into a group or change opinions or others things. At least, that's me being hopeful.

Maybe I'm too compassionate and willing to RP with almost everyone regardless of what character I'm on, but it doesn't start most of the time unless someone approaches the other.

-Edit- I apologize if that seemed rude to call you out. We've spoken intensively on this subject in the past, and you know that me being honest with you is in the best intentions. I love you.

I did initially, since we all know I don't like large groups.  Then, after you left to go get ready, I changed my mind after looking at the player list and realizing the dilemma I'd be in so I did ask to go, only to be immediately shut down.  That annoyed me.

Edit:  The honesty is appreciated.    And just as a CYA maneuver, I screenshotted it.  No hypocrisy for me! 

Another point while I'm editing.  Since I posted the first thing I've had someone 'correct' me to say they were insulted and made to feel unwelcome in a blatantly OOC way at one time or another, which furthers their perceptions that it's not just an IC issue.  Not the first time I've heard that complaint either.

So, I am going to speak about this topic now that I have arrived home from work, and have some coherence in me. 

Much of my lack of playing in Arabel has been due to a busy work schedule, thus I end up only RPing with a handful of people until things let up IRL.  However, another part of why I have not been spending my player-time in Arabel is the fact that...quite frankly, no one can get along OOCly.  Some IC antagonism is expected, but lately, I have been feeling that there is some hostile roleplay that is OOCly motivated.  And truth be told, it is not one party or another.  There are some who are taking roleplay in-character, as OOC slights, and retaliating accordingly. These people are not even checking in or trying to seek feedback on the situation; no one is communicating, so problems are festering.  I can feel it in a lot of interactions there, no matter their form.

There also seems to be grudge holding over perceived slights (that might or might not even be there).  And again, no one is talking to each other. A ton of backbiting is going on. The more I hear of this going on, the more I can only wonder...what is being said about me, by some of these people? 

I love CD, and I really do not want anything bad to happen to it.  But with some of the stress going on at work, I cannot play in an environment like this, and am only barely able to DM more than play in one like it.  Without mentioning names, here are some more specific examples of what I have noticed, and none of it seems to be resolved.

1. One or more person has issued complaints to the admins with expectation for punishment to come, yet had not tried to communicate with those who s/he thought slighted him/her, to see what was going on, first.

2. Others are upset that there is apparently OOC harassment going on, but there has been no screenshots or proof that this harassment is going on.  Thus I am left helpless and telling them to keep records/screens/etc and report it to the admins.

3.  And apparently, people are assembling in different groups, wanting one side or the other to be punished now.  Grudges are also being held far longer than necessary.

I would like to see all of these issues resolved.  I am sorry, but I cannot have much sympathy for number "1.", and while I can understand some hesitation or forgetfulness on addressing "2.," it needs done if more direct action is expected.  "3."...well, for every finger pointed, three are pointing back. This needs stopped.  So much tension, hatred, and jealousy should not be in a game server.  If anything, we all are coming here to have fun.  At the least, I would like to think so.

There really only is a handful of people I have ever disliked on this server. So I really feel awful when I see people I enjoy playing with being angry/hateful/etc toward each other.

Sincerely,
Arya

Let me also toss in something here.

Alone save for Vincent, I've been here for pretty much the entire lifespan of CD.

All of this has happened before, again and again.

We've tried affixing blame, we've tried chatting nicely with people, we've banned people, we've tried a lot of stuff that hasn't worked.

The Cycle goes something like this:

Server builds population, stuff goes on, groups form, activity builds.
Conflicts start popping up.
IC conflict bleeds into OOC conflicts, Player X dislikes Player Y, Group A/VariousPlayers/etc thinks Group B is an elitist clique, and so forth.
We try to intervene, first to try and smooth things over, then more strongly as that fails to solve anything.
Stuff happens, we ban someone or permakill a character to enforce consequences or something.
People quit because we cracked down on their friend, and others quit because they think we didn't do enough or didn't do it fast enough.
Server population dies off, stuff stops happening. Eventually the cycle starts over again.

But over time, the average population has dwindled with every cycle, to the point that now our high point is well below what the 'low' once was. And we can't keep repeating it and keep things going.

My overall point is this:

Player count is up. Interesting stuff is happening IC.

Why the fuck can't people get along and try to make the game a better place rather than constantly pointing fingers at your fellow players?

I'm going to come out and say this now.   Yes, I avoid certain people.  I have IC and OOC reasons for doing so, I don't look at a new player and say "You're so Underpowered, no thanks" ... I look at people's RP and how they react to what goes on with Bass and if they're easy going?  They are assimilated into the group of people I enjoy playing with.  I continuously seek out new players, in fact who are fun to be around, and aren't bitter vets.  Because at some point bitter vets turn me into a curmudgeon and I hate life.  I don't like hating life.

I wont take blame for 'stealing' the player-base though.  I don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.  The reason the majority of people went with me, and then to Stonehaven isn't because I forced them.  It's because it's where we prefer to play.  We're not a clique as so many are accusing us.  We just enjoy the care-free, judgement-free RP of one another.  We toss out dick jokes.  IC'ly.  It's fun.  People don't like it and those people aren't sought after for our attention.  I don't want to sit through a 40 minute diatribe about how awesome someone's character is.  I don't want to sit and have people egg me into a verbal contest, only to have them get incredibly upset with me ooc'ly when I respond.  I want to joke around, I want to toss barbs back and forth, and I want to enjoy my time on the server.  Honestly, I've heard and had to deal with it all on C/D.  I still come back.  People harass the players I RP with about how shitty of a person I am.  They still play with me.  People harass me about how shitty of a person I am and how I should change my RP.  I wont.  I keep 99% of what goes on in CD IC, until that 1% takes everything out of character and assumes I'm some maniac behind the screen, who's only goal is to make them feel bad OOC'ly.

NWN is a dead game.  There it is.  It's dead.  There are hundreds of thousands of other games out there.  I'm well aware of this, and I go out of my way to try and make sure people are having fun around me.  If they're not, I retreat to Stonehaven.  I can't help it if the majority of the server finds themselves there with me.  I try to involve anyone that has a reason to RP with Bass; anyone.  Vincent has a few characters I try to go out of my way to involve.  So does Red Mage.  Recently Jared returned, and Remmy and I didn't get along at all on MD.  We've been RP'ing together almost every day.  Bass isn't any nicer to him than most, yet he sticks it out and you know what?  Jared will eventually earn his place with Bass and the fuck-about will stop.  Not because of his mechanics or his levels.  But because he's putting in effort to get past the sour exterior.  A lot of other people have done this as well.  People that hate Bass, tend not to even try.  And chalk me up as a shitty person.  Well.  I'll keep my shitty antics in Stonehaven, but it's not my fault when the square is practically dead every night.

And I invite certain people out on adventures for the same reason I -never- sign up for events.  Because those people I invite, are willing to put up with the toxic character I play.  I refuse to force it on anyone else.

EDIT:  And in case anyone hasn't noticed it yet, I put -zero- credibility on levels or what gear you have.  I couldn't care less if you can spam HIPS and kill my character; if your IC actions dissuade me from interacting with you in a positive light, well, that's just how it is.  If you're level 3 and have an interesting way about your RP (Male or female) I'm going to try to involve you in things.  It's how I've always been here.

I refuse to dick ride, but I will say something here.

Way back when I first made Voss I heard from more than one person that I should be careful not to rp him at all as "this asshole Bass" did.

I was like: "Wow...who is this guy and what's so bad?" I heard a -lot- of stuff out of character about Bass's player before I ever even saw his character on the server. It was pretty disgusting.

My first interaction with Bass on Voss we were both sitting in the square - just rping. Bass went out of his way to approach Voss for no other reason than he had taken the time to read my bio and saw that Voss used axes - and he used axes. The player went out of their way to find common ground and explore it by getting interested in mine. He stepped outside of his own story for a moment to become a part of mine.

That one little act was actually the first time anyone had done anything like that with Voss (with the exception of my fiancee who plays next to me and has inside info. <.< - and made me add this!). Voss and Bass clashed at first, but then the strangest thing happened.

Through rp they kept finding more and more common ground, and soon their power struggles became grudging respect...which turned into true respect...which turned into mutual admiration - that's right. If rp is to be judged, an epic level half-balor Chosen of Tempus -admires- a level 12 barbarian.

To this day I have yet to see another instance of this when there's such a vast difference in levels, and to be honest it impressed me because it reminded me that CD isn't just about mechanics or your build. It's about your -character-. Who they are and what makes them that way. Level shouldn't come into play at all on that account since it's just numbers and mechanics.

I didn't want to chime in here, but yeah, Dom puts it bluntly but truly. Before I started playing with Bass and then through him with Rhea, I had not once had an interaction with a character above level 16 that didn't make my characters feel like they'd just wasted time. And nearly every interaction with my characters that involved one of these 'bitter vets' he mentions has been unpleasant In-character, and that's fine. I don't judge, and my characters respond accordingly...

But then it seems to move ooc and I start getting tells about "why do all my characters hate theirs for no reason." Well, they hate your character because he or she is consistently an asshole and realistically most people don't want to have anything to do with someone who treats them like an asshole -for no apparent reason-.

Bass is an asshole, but I've yet to see him act that out without cause, and so my -one- character that has gotten to know him respects him.

OOC I have immense respect for the player because despite the fact that as a newer player with no experience on the server people were already bad-mouthing him as a player to me he's still here. He has every right to be a "bitter vet" and to complain about people not liking his character, but he doesn't. He takes IC consequences IC and because he does the rp is imaginative, meaningful, purposeful, and creative (as well as immature and zany a lot of the time), and the saddest part is if people could rp conflict without letting it bleed into ooc they'd have more fun with and around Bass (the character).

He'd make an awesome antagonist if the protagonists would stop bitching at the author every time he hurts their feelings. I mean...really? Did Superman ever cry to the comic book writer about Lex Luthor trolling him? Do the X-Men try to get their enemies deleted from the universe by their writers whenever Magneto lays the smackdown on a weaker member? Did Frodo ask Tolkien to make Sauron play nice?

No.

The heroes in our favorite stories accept that the villains are villains and expect nothing less. They don't have a concept of "out of character" and if you want to make truly great stories with your characters you shouldn't allow yourself to either when considering the motivations of other -characters-.

And when dealing with other -players- ooc you should just remember the server rules of common sense and respect. It's simple.

Lies and slander, sir.

You're lies and slander, madam.

I am. Those are my aliases.

It is not. In print it's libel.

That's my third alias. Seriously, if this keeps up, I'm going to have to come up with new ones.

More on-topic again, I think the real killer in this whole mess - More than any IC or even many OOC actions by individual players - is the expectation that nothing will change.  Again speaking as the 'complaint sponge' for a number of friends and players I know, I will say there's a general perception among more than a few players that trying to resolve the problem does nothing but make you a bigger target.  There's a belief that it takes more iron-clad proof to get someone disciplined on CD than it does to get someone convicted in a real-life court of law, so going to the staff is useless, and this is furthered by the belief that the players they see as victimizing them enjoy doing so on an OOC level so approaching them only encourages them.  This leaves some people with the mindset of 'I will be bullied every time I log in and nobody will do anything about it,'  in turn leading to the development of an online version of the 'snitches get stitches' attitude, where people who have strong evidence or even proof are afraid to say anything because they think not only will it get ignored but it will then come back at them as even nastier abuse.

I'm sure that if all of us could get together someday and just have a calm, peaceful conversation where we could hash everything out and come to an understanding things would be a lot better for everyone.  Unfortunately, I don't see that really happening - The battle lines, such as they are, were drawn weeks ago and the ingrained attitudes people on both sides have developed are going to be hard to shake.  So, let's start small.  

Dom, I think you and I need to have a chat sometime. I know Bass hates every one of my major characters (Mista because she's a goody-good doormat, Xen'traya because Aesa, and Aelie because, uh, I don't even remember how that one began) and I've never really interacted with you on any other character you play, so there's a lot of dirty laundry here.  I think we need to talk, just to clear up the lingering years-long animosity between the two of us.  

I'll be in touch.

Post redacted

This.  I think everyone can really learn from this. 

By extension, I think open dialogue with each other is part of this common sense and respect (ironically, common sense is not common anymore >.>).  Taddling on each other in an attempt to get someone in trouble usually just leads to perceived senses of betrayal.  It is behaviour that generally goes on, in my opinion, with groups under the age of 18+.  

At least in kindergarten kids were honest about the taddling and precluded it with an, "Ummmmm, I'm telling on you!"  <.<  

I know we are taught all of these protocols and such in everyday society, and rarely are we taught to be direct and polite with each other - it's either be super rude, or keeping things and talking about them to others... But being -polite- but -direct- usually goes a long ways. It is an art to work on, and everything is a work in progress.  I would rather work with someone on issues (even if they have an issue with what I suggest is the solution!)... than have these festering grudges and getting angry that nothing is done.  I only allow myself a day at most to be angry over stuff in a game, and I am usually over that sort of stuff in the hour. In extreme cases, a few months, but those people had to be really, deliberately assholes OOCly. Despite corrective attempts.

On the note of antagonistic RP... sometimes, I do avoid it, but I do not go out and punish the people who participate in it.  I am rather practical about it and just do not participate in it. And I generally still get along with those people OOCly.  Until I get evidence of otherwise, I assume it is IC.  And I am still helpful as staff, if I cannot be playerside. My real issue only comes with OOCly motivated antagonistic RP veiled as IC. -That- piece is what needs to stop.

Sincerely,
Arya

This is my concern as well, and I've heard enough things from enough different people to be worried that it might actually be going on.  Especially since it's not easy to tell the difference unless you really know the person doing it, which I don't.

To bring up an example from another server I play on, I have a highly rude, self-righteous, arrogant, obnoxious asshole of a PC who is not only possessed of an extremely negative personality but also has incredibly high stats and is mechanically obnoxious to fight.  I dare say this character manages to be worse than Bass at his least bearable (that I've seen).  A Chaotic Evil drow Black Dragon Disciple antipaladin can be pretty unpleasant after all.  Other PCs -hate- this character for her grandstanding, her arrogance, her cultural insensitivity, her greed, and her general bastardness, plus the fact they can't just kill or intimidate her because she's too powerful.  But I don't get any heat OOCly for it because everyone I interact with there knows me.  Even as my character is heaping threats and verbal abuse on another character who can't retaliate, the player and I will be cracking jokes in tells, discussing stuff we did on alts earlier on Skype, or chatting in IRC with them and their friends.  Because that knowledge is there we all get along despite the antagonism.  I know what lines not to cross and they know what reactions will anger me as opposed to the character, so we can play around each others' dislikes and play off each others' strengths - Positive RP for all.

To contrast this example is another player on the server who played a similar character, a half-orc frenzied berserker who led a mercenary company.  He was actually more pleasant than my character, but he garnered a lot of IC disrespect and later became one of the most disliked people on the server OOCly.  What went wrong?  People assumed he had OOC motivations for everything, usually centered on increasing his own power and influence.  And because the few OOC interactions people had with him showed the same signs of rude behavior and self-promotion it became widely-believed that this was just how he was and this was what motivated him, and people began to treat the player with much the same disdain as his character.  This then spread to other characters he played, resulting in most of the server generally avoiding him, which resulted in him constantly trying to get involved again, which led to more negative interactions between him and other players, which just made things worse in an epic death-spiral that resulted in so many hurt feelings and so much needless antagonism that only five years later are things beginning to settle out again.

Because the OOC knowledge of and camaraderie between players doesn't always exist between antagonists on CD, it becomes hard to tell what is meant strictly IC and what might be an OOC pot-shot.  And as I stated earlier, some people (like me!) are, for one reason or another, quick to assume OOC intent - If the person antagonizing them doesn't know that then they might wind up accidentally starting or feeding an OOC grudge, and all it takes at that point is one OOC loss of patience or one OOC statement that could be taken as a deliberate slight or insult and it's game on.  This is further complicated by CD's relatively small size, which makes antagonistic pairs run into each other a lot more than they might on a much bigger server.

I would just like to make a new post to add this vital thought:  I like walls of text.  Thank you.

Wall of Text
School evocation [text]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time several standard actions
Components S, M (powdered quartz), W (lots and lots of W)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration until the wall goes into the archives (D)
Saving Throw not a chance; Spell Resistance no
A wall of text creates a visible wall of pure text. The wall cannot move and is not easily destroyed. A wall of text is immune to dispel magic and flag, although a postmonster's disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of text can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which thankfully destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of text has density 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of WTF instantly destroys a wall of text.

Shamelessly stolen from this guy.

This was exactly what I was talking about!  Bravo!

My not-so-little two cents:

We all invest our time, interest, and creativity to this server.  When so much time is spent on a character, it is easy to take negative things that happen toward that character as attacks/consequences against you as a player.  When faced with IC antagonism, we begin applying the characteristics of the character to the player.  Yet, when asked why we're so very sure these conflicts are OOC motivated, we struggle to come up with concrete examples.  Because we feel these incidents are personally directed, it is nigh impossible to step back and apply logic and distance to the situation.

If this happens, it's time to step back.  Ask the other player for breathing room--a mutual silent treatment, for example.  Give that other character space and don't engage in interactions with them unless you're willing to accept the IC consequences.

I could go into a long list of the passive-aggressive, self-fulfilling RP/actions that "prove" these IC conflicts are OOC (when they're not), but there's not enough Snapple in the world to convince me to open THAT can of worms.

Conflicts happen.  It's the truth of any extended period of interpersonal interaction.  It's how we respond as players to these conflicts that can make or break a server.

Side note:  Edge and I have y'all beat.  Our first characters had death sentences leveled at them by the Tormish faction on a server before they were even created in-game.  How's THAT for antagonistic?   (My first character, his second.)

First; I deal with posts like this every time I'm active and drawing attention toward Stonehaven, rather than people mulling about in the square to be antagonized or bullied by epics.  Case and point?  2 epics bullying a lowbie bard for his interest in talking to dragons and learning songs from them.  Case and point?  An epic mage forcing a lowbie fighter into a pvp scenario and then 'smelling'  meta-gamed out the ass information.  I'm not joking, this player claimed their HUMAN mage could SMELL something on this person.  Smell it.  The real problem is people don't want to imagine their characters as infallible or that they can be outwitted.  The real problem is people think every story should revolve around them.  Then the issue is the fact blunt and simply: most of the time those characters are boring.

Sure that character (And there are many I'm thinking about) may jump on board every event the server offers, but that doesn't equate to them being any more interesting.  From my point of view.  I'm a firm believer as well that epics should be trying to encourage lower level characters to do things, no stifling their play with "LOOK AT ME I'M HIGHER LEVEL AND YOU WILL BOW TO ME" attitudes.  That said, people that antagonize epics time and time again, aren't going to enjoy playing that character much.  IC consequences for IC actions.  

So saying the 'battle lines' were drawn weeks ago, is a horrible misconception.  The 'battle lines' were drawn when I first stepped foot into the square with Bass and he refused to kiss certain epic ass.  

As far as our Chat, we've had them and continue to have them and will have more in the future I'm sure.  The outcome is always the same.  Neither of us appears to have an issue with the other and we go about our day.  My IC reasons behind disliking Mista?  Are IC.  Xen'traya?  Also IC.  Aelie?  Again, IC.  But if you'd like a general breakdown of why my character doesn't care for them.  Sure.  

He sees Mista as a waste of time and energy; she made up her mind on who and what Bass is, because he has horns.  Acceptable.  Her attempt to join him on an adventure was of convenience.  He doesn't do fair-weather associates.

Xen'traya is seen as a traitor.  You know the reasons behind that and the implications are potentially Meta-gamy.  So I wont go into further detail.

Aelie not only jumped on Victoria's band-wagon when she would mindlessly yammer on and on about how horrible Bass was, but she also did the exact same thing when Bass had issues with Aesa.  AND TO TOP IT OFF, she's a blatant ally of Aesa's.   In case you were wondering, it's never been a secret Bass dislikes Aesa.

Now, everyone that seems to be complaining to you is complaining about my bullying.  Regardless whom these people are, and I'm pretty sure I know who they are, let's have a run down of how OOC'ly I've gone out of my way to change my character to try in some futile way to appease the server.

Issue: Was Chaotic Evil.  Did evil things.  Was evil.  Was told it was too evil.  Told to tone it down.  Told to fuck off, kill myself and any manner of other things.  All OOC by the way.  In tells.  (I don't run to the Admins with any issues I have with players.  They have better things to do with their time than have me tattling about silly nonsense on the internet.  Some people should take that into consideration.)

Solution:  I took 9 months and role-played as a fallen cleric.  9.  (Some people waited longer; sorry about that Darvins)  I asked politely for a fallen token, and then spent that time IC'ly searching for a new deity.  I spent countless hours with half a dozen characters, even some Bass couldn't stand, learning of which deity would have been best for him.  Tempus was eventually settled upon.  I also, when capped (Which means got zero xp for it) devised an idea with Wicked and Destructo12 that would go on to involve almost a dozen characters (some of whom got epic because of the event) in earning Tempus' favor.  

Result:  Bass is still too much of an asshole.  He should be banned for making our feelings hurt IC'ly.

Let's move on.

Issue:  Mechanically built too powerfully.  A half-demon cleric, blackguard who used the Netherese spellblade (The dispel one) was too op and on one hit dispelled all scrolls/potions from people.  That wasn't acceptable and EVEN THOUGH ONLY PVP'D TWICE, BOTH TIMES IN THE ARENA, ... it wasn't allowing others to be on an even footing.

Solution:  I chose to have him rebuilt into a cleric/fighter and RP altered to step away from a demon lord and serve a CN deity.   A CN deity that doesn't condone blackguards.  Also, a CN deity that demanded he use ONLY his battleaxe.  I dropped things like Divine Shield / Divine might.  I dropped Improved expertise.  I avoided situations where pvp would determine the outcome of a heated argument.

Result:  Oh, well ... the ECL is just stupid and shouldn't be played in that manner; they're villians so they should just lay down and take what we give them.

I'll offer one more in an attempt to be brief.

Issue:  Spending too much time in the square alienating, bullying, and all around assholing on people.  Hiding behind guards and mechanics that force players to feel powerless against me/Bass, because he isn't breaking rules, but just verbally accosting people.  It was said the only reason I 'got away' with things is because of anything from sexual favors to donating large sums of money to the admins.  All hilarious accusations and entirely baseless.  I'm broke as a joke; sometimes I can barely pay my cable bill.  Large sums of money.  Yeah.  Okay.

Solution:  I gather a few people that don't seem to mind my form of RP and I get along with really well ooc'ly, and we conspire to create a new place for us to spend time.  A haven for our preferred form of Roleplay.  Stonehaven is born and after just over two years of RP without any form of DM interaction short of a wonderfully done piece with Sidhe of Bass becoming a Knight of Marliir; the area was put in the module.  For those wondering how it's even possible for Bass to have been considered a knight, I assure you it wasn't easy.  And it took a great deal of effort on many player's parts.  Anyway, Stonehaven came in and people liked it.  A lot of people.

Result:  Oh noes, you've split the server; now everyone goes to Stonehaven to RP except for a choice few.  Huh.  I leave the server center and try to play elsewhere, not forcing my RP on people and they choose to come to Stonehaven.  Interesting.  Clearly that's my fault and I should be punished.  Or, as I was told ... give it to another player who clearly deserved it more.  Or, as I was told ... let it become a ruin in another player's epic drama to become evil.  Or, as I was told ... hand it over to DM control so everyone could go there.  A little known fact, ... I invited everyone there.  I've never told anyone they couldn't come to Stonehaven, or play there.  People that choose not to seem to either have an issue with me ooc'ly or can't stand Bass IC'ly.  I can't change that, so I don't dwell on it.

At any rate, I've rambled longer than I anticipated.  Sadly, I'll end up getting bored with all the ooc hate again.  Not that it ever bothers me, mind you.  It just gets boring after awhile.  Then, with conflict simmering and everyone singing camp fire songs together in the square, interest will wane.  Population will drop off.  And people will complain about it being dead.  Oh, another little known fact?  Since I started playing C/D after leaving MD/GC, I've never played on another server.  I logged into Sinfar a few times to try to get people to come RP with me on C/D, but I never actively played elsewhere.  I was invited no less than a dozen times to other servers, with promises of everything from being on the DM team to assisting adminning.  If what FW and Vincent have to put up with is any indication on what I was looking at?  I'd burn my computer first.  So when I take a break, it's not to play elsewhere or draw players to another server.  It's to avoid another cycle of whinging that happens -every- time I start becoming more active and doing things.

In closing; years long animosity?  I don't have any animosity for you.  There are two people I couldn't possibly care any less for that have ever played on this server, and I'm positive they know whom they are.  Neither are active as far as I've seen.  I don't dislike anyone else ooc'ly on this server, and I often go out of my way to speak with them if they approach me first.  Problem is, if your intent is to ooc'ly change my mind on how to play my 4 year old character?  You might as well save it, because I have no time for that.  I don't tell people how to play theirs in any manner ooc or ic, I'd appreciate it if people would stop thinking they have the right to do so to me.

For the most part I would echo DM Rebel's notions of co-optitude. The server's not balanced at all for combat PvP so it should not be a driving factor. On the other hand opposition takes many other forms (and fighting can happen more secondarily).

My only wish is that we try not to scare away newcomers too much. Neither should we get into a bit of a group mentality where newcomers either conform and join "my" group, or remain subject to what might be an uncomfortable amount of bullying or antagonism which might otherwise be acceptable. I think this is something that happens by itself for the most part, from being buddies and seeing somebody new pop up. It's happened before, with different groups (some of which I may once upon a time been a part of myself). So it's more of a general concern than anything else.

It's also important to remember not all newcomers come the same way. Coming alone is much harder than coming with someone you know to be your support when you're facing that iceberg you're going to need to break to get into some fun RP.


It is  also far from obvious to someone new who only sees one group, if picked on by them a little, that this is the "position" or whim of a small group, and not... like, everyone's opinion of them. This is all the more true given the high proportion of players that are also DMs. It can lend an air of official disapproval. It's easy to say that newcomers should be wary of drawing conclusions so hastily but it can't hurt to work on it from the other side too.

Some points.

1)  Since Aelie was one of the epics 'bullying' that bard...  No,  She wasn't bullying him.  She was making fun of his ultimate goal as she understood it because it was, in her eyes, a completely laughable one, like trying to get Tempus and Sune married by writing an awesome fanfic.  She was telling him it wasn't going to happen as he thought because, well, reality doesn't work that way.  The fact she misunderstood what his goal actually was wound up being important, and once she learned that she pretty much stopped bugging him because things made more sense.  This relates to my earlier point of dueling perceptions - I didn't see it as bullying but perhaps that player did, and if they did I didn't know about it.  As for the 'sniff test' I can't say I remember that one - I don't think I was there for it.  And boring characters?  Yeah, I know Aelie is boring for most people.  That's why you haven't seen her much - I don't know what to do with her so I'm trying to develop another, more interesting character.  Whether or not I'm succeeding is a whole different story.

2)  I have to take some amusement about your line of antagonizing epics, considering you antagonized the hell out of an epic or near-epic Aelie when you were level 8-10 and the only things that stopped her from hunting Bass down and killing him until the character was no longer viable to play were the server PvP rules of the day (they're much more lenient now) and the fact I'd feel like a scumbag OOCly for ambush-killing someone half my level.  Essentially, you're saying that you refused to kiss epic ass and you antagonized them.  But those epics let you go anyway even though you gave them motive and opportunity to kill you.  Now that you are the epic, It feels like you're turning around and bullying lower-levels that antagonize you, not giving them the same chance you yourself were given.  Whether or not this is true (and if so, how true) is all down to perception, but the perception is there.

3)  As for our chats...  We don't actually talk all that much OOCly.  We go back and forth on the forums occasionally, like now, or sometimes swap a tell or two, but we don't communicate much outside of that.  Perhaps we should do so more.

4)  I don't know why Bass started hating Aelie.  She and Victoria never really got along well until near the end of SK's playtime here - They were enemies longer than they were friends.  So far as I can remember, Bass more or less started harassing her because she was an (near?) epic and an easy target, which is what led to her always siding against him, first with Victoria then with Aesa.  She didn't start hating him until after he went after her and stayed after her for several weeks, often getting other people to join in to boot.  Even now, she's not directly antagonistic towards him so much as she just doesn't like him.  She's even fine with most of his friends.  As for Xen, I have a different understanding of it, but you're right that it's not something to be brought up here.  We'll talk about it later in private.

5)  I don't have any issues with a lot of your changes and I appreciate that you made them.  The questline you did to earn Tempus's favor was quite well-done, as I remember it.  Though it's a bit hard to complain about using only battleaxes when you got such a nice one...    I wasn't aware with any of your rebuilds or relevels (I don't follow that stuff) and most of the time I criticize him isn't due to his build (I know he's got flaws) but more due to the fact Bass is the most prominent ECL character people are likely to know and I have an issue with the way ECL races are handled on CD in general (I think they're too common and too easy to get).  And even then, I'm much, much more likely to pick on half-dragons.

6)  Stonehaven.  I remember you telling a few people they weren't welcome there, actually, usually people Bass had serious issues with (Aesa).  I'm still not sure if Aelie is allowed there or not, because I've been there once or twice but also heard a few times she wouldn't be welcome there (all IC).  The majority of the complaints I've seen about it were that it was becoming something of a clique, and often the only available RP at certain times of day was going on there, leaving the unwelcome (by fact or by thought) out in the cold.

I'd like to say I'm willing to RP with anyone(except one person who doesn't play anymore). I typically go where the RP is on my characters. If I log on and the server is empty or I have to scour for a hour to find a small group of people, then 99% of the time I'll just log off and do something else.

I've been in Stonehaven recently because there's welcoming people there who are good at RPing their characters. My characters aren't always a perfect fit, but that's ok. In fact, I prefer it that way than making something tailored for a specific group. I like the conflict. I even like disagreeing with people in stonehaven about other people or situations. It's entertaining RP to me. And I go where the entertaining RP is. If I wanted to just chat with people I was chummy with, I wouldn't log in at all and just do it over Skype or something.

So feel free to approach any of my characters. I'm even willing to log onto another character, go topside, or even create a new character for you if you need! I'm all about the story telling. Three out of six of my characters on my main account are nothing more than plot tools for furthering other people's personal stories(Marz, W.M., Cataline). They have their history and desires, but they are things that can only come about not from a DM but from getting involved with other people.

It's been suggested that I'm treated differently by the Stonehaven group because I am a DM. I can assure that's not true. I butt heads with the DM staff far more than I do than with other players, because I am stubborn, and I care for the server. I may not always have the best ideas, but good luck convincing me I don't! Bass and I haven't always gotten along. In fact, I despised the player from the way Bass treated my main after I went on a break. I went a long time being bitter, but I really didn't know the player at all. I still don't, to be honest, but now that I only play for RP and stories, it doesn't matter if I know his a/s/l, or anything. I just need to know he and the players around me are willing to explore and expand stories and creative influence with me.

Irony: assuming someone is talking about your character when they're not.

Bigger irony: assuming someone is talking about their character when they're not.

Biggest irony: assuming everything revolves around you and then wondering why you keep getting the feeling no one wants to deal with you.  

There was another server I played on briefly that had a rule: "Stories are built upon characters, not a character. Remember that you can play a role in someone else's story and both of you can have fun just as easily as they can be a part of yours."

I like that rule and have carried it with me every time I've joined a new server. Some people will simply never understand this concept that the world is bigger than them - in real life or in a game world. It's sad, but thus is life.

For my part: I refuse to deal with any character that cannot adhere at least in part to the rule I mentioned above. Why? Because the thought, effort, time, and even tears sometimes that I put into creating stories and personalities for my characters deserves far more respect than to see them treated as a piece of furniture simply occupying space upon the grand stage that some idiot has created for themselves to puff out their chest and flex their e-peen. A human being that lacks the capacity of thought it requires to understand empathy for others or consider differing perspectives without becoming offended is not someone I want to deal with - regardless of the potential rewards.

I wouldn't work for this person IRL.

I wouldn't drink with this person IRL.

I wouldn't talk to this person IRL.

I won't game with this person in the place I go to escape IRL.

You know why Aelie is boring to play and be around? It's really not even your fault, trylo. It's common sense. No story sustains itself and lasts forever. You've played out your ideas and concepts fully from what I've seen and now you're struggling to find something else to define her, but you can't. You won't until you learn how to look beyond your character and find the humility and dignity to be willing to consider the role that Aelie can play in someone else's story beyond her ability to be "an epic and powerful caster." You can't find Aelie's real personality on any deep level because I don't think it's there. If you've played her the way you have in the few interactions with my characters, you've never allowed that depth to develop because you've never allowed another character to really deeply impact her or change her from what your OOC goals are. It's sad, and I'm sorry you've let this happen to your beloved character, but there it is.

In any case, it seems to me as a newcomer like Piyale mentioned that CD has certain very insular communities within it, and when I first got here, yeah, I honestly felt just like furniture. My character's goals and ideals were automatically less just because my level didn't have 2 digits in it. Certain characters - characters who had wisdom scores in the high 20s or 30s - made absolutely no attempt to use that perception to divulge anything about mine. They simply made an assumption and rped off that - and to a one they alienated my character to the point that In-Character he decided that anyone who referred to themselves as some important local figure (either as a councilmember or epic adventurer or dragonslayer or high-ranking paladin) - had caught crazy somewhere along the way and he didn't want to deal with them. Then he found a druid who -did- try to perceive what was beneath the surface. I enjoyed those interactions a great deal with him, and even today I recall them fondly as I've moved on to other concepts.

The characters I have enjoyed the most on CD so far have been the ones that other characters have taken an interest in and the ones who I see as being poignant enough that others are drawn to them and their story and want to become a part of it. Nimuri was a character I had a great story for and had a killer build (by 20 she would have more ac than the shadow dragon if what I've been told is true). But I've abandoned her because as great as her story seemed to me...it became clear very quickly that no one else cared for it and I'll not have the interactions that drive characterization with her that I'd like. This isn't the fault of others. It's mine. I wasn't able to make her interesting enough for others to want to dig deeper and get involved.

This is how I characterize. The onus is on you to make your characters interesting, and when you do they will have those meaningful interactions that are more than just "square chatter". And in those interactions both your character and those around them will grow and change, finding new paths and new directions - and new ideas - you'd never even considered. Art mirrors life, after all, and roleplaying is storyweaving. It's an art.

I've had 3 characters here. Just 3. Of them I consider 2 failures because of my inability to make them interesting enough that people would dig into them. I could've still tried to force them as characters - ground dungeons and begged DMs for events and hitch-hiked on as many as I could - and likely eventually hit max level. But then what? No matter what the character does eventually it just becomes boasting if they tell everyone else how awesome they are. Think about it. How do you feel when someone just lists off their accomplishments and deeds? Do you like being talked at rather than talk to? Most people don't.

Voss is my first success here in my opinion. People - enemies and friends - have delved deeply into him, tried to understand him. They've tried to find weaknesses and test strengths, tried to figure out what makes him tick and what can tear him apart. The perceptive foe of his that has responded to his roleplay with a fullness of IC thought has everything they need to take him down. The ally that has questioned him and his motives, delved into his past and prodded for his future has everything they need to trust him and rely on him. I'm honored that people have had these interactions with him, and I try to give others the same feeling - the same interest that has been shown to him I pass on. I feel like Dom tries this as well, and as a result Bass gets the focus he does. There are just such a large number of characters that have been drawn into Bass's story that among the good apples there are bound to be a number of bad ones that can't separate the story from the writer. If Dom were really such an out-of-character problem these bad apples would ignore and avoid him in any and all ways. They wouldn't choose to recognize anything he does as relevant or respond to it OOCly or ICly.

But they don't. The cycle continues and they're drawn again and again into OOC conflict with the player because they're too blind to see that they've been ensnared in the story. It's easy to point fingers at OOC motivations, but at the end of the day the actions your character takes are entirely up to you. You accept the consequences both IC and OOC. As a player you can break the rules and deal with the punishment. As a character you can cut someone down in the square - not breaking any server rule - and your character can face the punishment. The irony in all this is that the people who get irked at Bass choose to keep interacting with him in some way, shape, or form - and this is an OOC decision that leads to their own OOC grief. If he somehow manages to take every character on the server to Stonehaven for rp because their players want them to engage in that rp that's likely another telling sign that this player - through this character - is attempting to engage the entire server in meaningful, character-driving rp.

Boy ain't that the truth. Kestal started out as my off-character, the one I played when the characters I normally played (at the time, just Cyrillia) didn't have any of their normal traveling companions online. Then she hooked up with the Blue Thorns and eventually became not only my main character for several years but possibly one of my favorite characters of all time.

Anyone who quotes Neil Gaiman in their signature automatically has my respect sir, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only nutball that sees characters as parts of a story rather than extensions of myself.

To juxtapose some of the text walls, I'd like to add that IC conflict, antagonism, and general social debauchery can go a long way in enhancing the development of a character (and the characters they interact with). There's nothing inherently wrong in being a "bad guy". It just takes some measure of responsibility!

The flipside of "joining" really hard (see: too hard) is that it makes your PC about as interesting as a paper hat. Insofar as anyone that wants to RP anything decision-based, or political or whatever may as well get it from the horse's mouth.

Wow, that was rather stunningly rude.  What'd I do to offend you?

I could only think of one person who gave Tavaris more crap than Aelie did, so I assumed the other one had to be her.  My fault, I suppose.

As for Aelie and depth, I'll bite.  The problem isn't so much that the depth isn't there, it's that the people who found it, the people who explored it, the people who helped shape the character...  they're all gone.  The plots and schemes and entire fields that Aelie was involved in, they're dead and buried.  The DMs have left, the characters have retired, and nobody has any interest in them anymore.  The depth is there - The few long-timers out there who have seen it will note she isn't as simple as she seems - but there's no suitable outlet for it.  She is pretty shallow in general social interaction, but if that's all she has to do that's all that will ever be seen.  Focus has shifted away from her areas of expertise and she can't roleplay with herself.  Best to just sideline her until I see opportunities to get involved again and reinvent her in a meaningful way, yes?

As stressful as some of the old storylines were, I have to agree with Trylo, there are some PCs who may seem shallow and uninteresting to many players, especially newer players, because those characters poured their efforts into plots and relationships and stories which are at this point, just history.

I myself feel like Veir, my paladin, has very little in the way of means to get involved in things ever since the entirety of his original unit in the Purple Dragons has left the server, and there have been multiple reorganizations of the faction since, and also since the people who shaped his climb up to where he is are for the most part gone now too.

Jillian Goodbarrel, an old PC, was a decent influence on him, and shaped a lot of his early RP.  Tyrus, a mean green fighting machine, with a softer side; he and Veir had many conversations that were quiet and very divisive, but almost never hostile.  Even Victoria, crazy cleric of Torm, had an impact on Veir, and had a great deal to do with his story.  And who can forget the War Wizard that was basically his constant traveling companion.  And, to a man, they're all gone from CD now.

His biggest adversaries, they're also gone.  Lilly Trayl, in the beginning, was someone who was involved in some very organic RP with Veir, where they began as the most hostile enemies, and eventually became friends after a fashion.  An evil, man-eating werewolf, bane of many people's existence, had a big impact upon Veir's story too.

To many new players though, I'd bet Veir seems like the stereotypical old PC, with little in the way of depth, and little in the way of involvement in storylines.

My point, longwinded as it is, is that PCs, especially older PCs might not be involved with the newer storylines, and might not develop and change as much, because they've already developed and changed into the form they have settled into.  And that's okay, but it is a bit sad that the other PCs they put so much effort into building stories with are gone.

My character is old; reiterated the group I rp with time and time again.  Yet I still do what I can to raise up newer players through RP and story-telling.  Why?  Because I don't want to be in the lime-light.  In fact I've never wanted that.  I just play to have fun.  And very often put emphasis on placing others on the center stage.  Just because your pc is old, doesn't mean they can't get involved with new stories.  You just need to put forth the effort.

That's not really the point I was making.  To each his own, it's just that people should understand that PCs may have had a lot of development and changes they never saw.  What seems statis when viewed through a lens of a short period of interactions may not be static when viewed as a part of the PC's lifespan.

I'm not going to take sides in any of this.

Part of the problem is simply that there are sides, to begin with.

Let's be clear about a few things.

-Nobody can tell you how to play your character.
-Nobody can kill off your character.

Nobody, that is, except the Admins, and we try to allow as much reasonable leeway on the first part, and do our best to avoid the latter.

So, as long as there's no actual serious harassment going on - and I mean serious, not just "Player X's character said mean things to me" - what's the problem that we don't address?

There's 24 people on right now as of Midnight EST.  Even for a Friday, that's better than we've had all summer. There's lots of people to play with, lots of stories to be had and made. This world is yours to shape - and there's tons of corners to make your own. Nobody has a monopoly on a concept, or faction, or anything. Find some likeminded people and build something.

This. This, I think, is the point being missed.

So all your characters' buddies are gone. Tell me...when you reach some great accomplishment in your life...when you find that pinnacle and you think, "There's no way things can get better than this," do you stop everything and just give up on ever doing more? Do you look at the people around you and decide, "Meh, I've done stuff with people before. They're gone. No reason to bother forming any meaningful ties with someone new"?

If you do, well, I feel an extraordinary amount of pity for you. If your character is at that point? You probably should retire them. But if you feel there's more story for them, you have to, if you'll pardon me for saying so, get off your ass and make it happen. You don't need DMs for this.

+1 to this, too, sir.

Effort and depth.  A lot of what I find interesting about a character is what isn't said and how that could play into an existing conversation.  I won't get into detail about my chars, far too much of it I want you to guess and ponder at, and if your wrong?  That's even better.

Effort and the drive to see.  What it is you see?  What stares back at you?

On the subject of antagonism.  My chars have had their fare share, and every so often, my chars get into arguments and win or lose, fight or get rolled, it's part of life.  Very rarely though have I had the inclination to be hostile.  Apologies if i ever have, hope there's time and space to heal, I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone to be.  My two cents is this: If it seems to be, it isn't.  It's likely a whole other can of worms.

The onus is on the player to both take an interest in other characters and make their own characters interesting. If your character feels ignored or old then you have either failed to take an interest in others with your interactions or have failed to make your character approachable and interesting in some form or fashion. It's really that simple.

Accountability is important, and since we can hold no one accountable for ourselves for our fun in this game it becomes even more simple. Not pleased with your interactions? Look to what -you- can do to improve them -before- you start trying to figure out what others can do to placate you. This should apply to any character of any age or status.

At the same time, though, some character aspects require a vehicle to present themselves - Because of the way things work on this particular server you can't always just make things happen in certain directions.  I'll use Aelie as an example again because I obviously have good examples there.  She really enjoys dabbling with politics, thus her being Arabel's longest-serving Council member, and she's on good terms with a lot of noble houses.  One would think in the current political climate of Cormyr this would lead to a lot of interesting and meaningful RP possibilities.  But since all government affairs are DM-controlled, I have no vehicle for political RP unless a DM is active and willing to delve into it.  Right now, none are - The political end of things is on hold and has been for a while.  I have no chance to involve myself let alone get other people involved because there's nobody at the helm.

The second example I'll cite is the Violet Flame.  I really, really want to do something with the Violet Flame again.  The problem here isn't DM activity, since the Flame is player-run, the problem is OOC politics between the various members. Chiefly, as much as I'd like to change with it, restructure it, and do it all over again, my character isn't in charge of it.  A number of us old-timers remember the huge problems that happened when someone who wasn't in charge of a player faction 'took the helm' and steered it in a new and fun direction, then someone who had rank over them came back and everything went to hell.  This is what killed off the Talon Company player-run Purple Dragon faction for good - The conflict between the higher-ranking but largely-inactive people and the lower-ranking but active ones wound up creating a drama storm (one of the worst I've ever seen on CD) nobody wanted to deal with and the leadership burnt out completely.  This has happened to me three different times with the Violet Flame already - I try to change things and the old leader mysteriously reappears and shuts it down - and I'm not sure I care enough to go for number four without overwhelming support from not just players but also staff.

Sometimes there are OOC influences that can prevent a character from expressing things in an IC manner.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.

I was that bad guy once! Glad to see you pop back in. Maybe we'll get to rekindle some of that blood-feud. 

So, time for my two cents as one of those "bitter vets." ^{(holy shit has it really been 6 years? I feel old now.)}

Trylo's sentiments about characters being dead and gone pretty much ring true for characters of mine, namely Felix. For a long time I was just bitter and bitchy about everything and provided nothing of real consequence (which, shocker, led people like Bass to call him out on it and make him a target). Once I stopped doing that, I stopped being a target for IC mockery. I also imagine that it was really unpleasant for people to be around me OOCly since I was just bitchy all the time. So I only played if some of those old characters showed back up. The only "good" decision I've made for him was semi-retiring him during my hiatus a few years ago after he got married so I would stop focusing on finishing his personal story. While I'm glad so many people in the past were invested in helping him, it was no longer relevant and I had to let go. Since then I've had several DMs offer to pick it up for me and I've declined it every time because it wasn't a healthy goal to have.

Nikolai, despite being one of my most enjoyable characters to play, is actually a pretty terrible character in that he completely relies on other people's reactions for me to enjoy playing. This is precisely that sort of "shoving RP down other people's throats" thing that's unhealthy. Eventually people stop reacting to the novelty and surprise, he's boring to play because while he does have deeper motivations 1) They're self-centered because *spoiler alert* he's a sociopath and 2) would not bode well for his longevity.

And while it's good to become invested in other people's characters, it's important to not become TOO invested. I stopped playing Brian because his identity was so entwined with Sha'lyah's he became impossible to play afterwards.

My most interesting character, Merriwether, is an absolute chore for me to play because (gods forbid) I actually have to think when playing him and I can't just shenanigans 100% of the time. This is why I don't really pop in much anymore because while I love the character, I just want to screw around when I get on since I lack the energy to flesh out stories.

So the moral of the story is: Don't be me.

Don't make the same mistakes I've made and just play to have fun. There are no winners and losers here. If that's the mindset that you have then everyone loses, including yourself. This isn't a problem that will just blow over, it's something that can (and will) destroy the server in a game that's already hard to enough to keep going with the dwindling playerbase.

So if you have a problem with someone, swallow your pride and hug it the fuck out. Hug until you can no longer breathe and begin to turn as blue as an Asari. Don't be bitter, angry, and hold grudges, and judge people (read: reasons I don't feel comfortable playing, I'd rather not pollute the server with my toxicity). If you can't find yourself capable of doing that, please seek out a psychological professional in your area. Because we love you and want you to feel better.

Yes, I understand that politics are important to some characters -  I also get a DM is needed for that. I get that player-run factions run into issues with ooc politics, and you can't always rely on people to behave like adults about it.

But tell me...are these the only things that matter to your character? Seriously? Is that the extent of her depth? Her career...and...her career? She's got two talents...and there's nothing else worth expressing?

I mean, I'm not doubting that a character can be that flat and still make it to epics. I'm not. But I would hope that isn't the case. From the calibre of roleplay I have seen demonstrated on this server time and again from those I have come to love playing with, I have to believe that this is not the norm.

So if you're struggling because Aelie is politically and magically inclined...maybe try developing other aspects of her personality.

And yes, I realize that Aelie was just one example - but this can be applied to any and all characters. If you can't find those aspects that make them enjoyable not only to you, but to those you play with - set them aside until you can, or retire them. Easier said than done, I know, because we do get attached to those characters we've invested a lot of time in, but consider this - you do those treasured creations of yours a disservice by allowing them to outlive their glory too long.

You're right that I do the character a disservice by keeping her around long after she's had anything to do, which is why I'm not really playing her.  But you also do a disservice to me by insulting a character as 'flat' when you've only interacted with them in one setting a handful of times.  Any character seems flat when you haven't made an effort to see any depth from them, and I'm not going to come onto the forums and explain everything to you OOCly just to prove a point either.  I'm just giving examples of how elements I could use, and want to use, to continue to develop the character are being shut down by OOC issues beyond my control.

You misunderstand. If anything, I was giving you an opportunity to show that Aelie does have more depth to her than you indicate here. I said that I don't doubt a character could be that flat and still made it to epics, but that I would hope this is not the case. I've made no assumptions about your character - I just pointed out to you that if you don't want her to be flat, the onus is on you to change it.

If none of my characters have had an opportunity to see more of Aelie than they have, that's as much on you as it is me - because the opportunities to interact have been there, and they've been declined in some fashion or other - often by you being afk in a heavily trafficked roleplay area. If you don't want Aelie to be a placeholder - do something about her. Whinging about the disservice I've done to you by insinuating something I haven't isn't likely to solve your problem.

Yeah this topic is like a train that started in LA headed for NY.. and somehow is now moving towards Shanghai.

My phone is about to die. I'm drunk as fuck at dinner. I just want to remind people.  Player organizations die all the time.   Don't like they way the player organization is being handled that you're currently in?  Uhhhhh.  Make your own. Steal members. Do shit.

Stop blaming others for your inability to spark interest in something you want to do. Stop trying to steal someone else's idea. Start your own. Entwine them if you want or don't. The opportunity is there regardless.

Bass left clockwork for that very reason.  Now he runs with the Stonehaven crew and guess what?  Clockwork is practically unheard of. It's not the organizations that matter but those they revolve around. I'm done for now. Food is here. I'll be on to fuck shit up later.

As regards to player guilds, troupes, factions, et cetera, this is basically how it works:

1) Nobody has a monopoly on a concept.

What this means is that we're not going to say 'sorry, there's an existing faction of that type, you have to join it.' While we'd certainly prefer people cooperate, given the small size of the player base, we'd rather have two groups doing the same thing than let anything get stale because the existing faction has grown moribund. It's been our experience that inevitably one of the two will die out and leave the more active one, or they'll merge, and the system achieves equilibrium on its own.

2) No particular player has a greater "right" to any faction than any other.

Going along with the previous one, no single player ever has any sort of OOC veto power over any faction, no matter what they've done. IC is IC, and if someone has IC support as leader of a faction, then expect them to stay that way, but OOC only works on what the players want, and everyone is equal in that sense.

3) No placeholding.

If you have a position in a faction, and leave the server or otherwise go inactive for a long period of time, you don't have a right to expect that you keep your old position. That doesn't mean people ICly won't restore you to it, simply that you have no OOC right to expect it. We fully expect that if someone else stepped up to keep the faction going after you left, then that person is the one who should have any sort of IC precedence, in our opinion (for what that's worth). You want your position back? Work to reacquire it ICly.

In the case of the Violet Flame, that's entirely up to the players. Convince your fellow interested sorts, and if all or a majority of the active sorts want to do X, then the staff is going to go with that. Various DMs' involved characters may have opinions, but the staff isn't going to step in and say "No, you can't change your leadership or faction structure".

I agree to an extent on all of those points.  But, what I'm getting at is ... let's use Stonehaven for instance.  Bass doesn't in any official manner control or rule there, based on the OOC Ruling that no PC can rule a place.  Understandable.  But if for what ever reason Bass chose to move his attention elsewhere.  It's unlikely the place would survive; it's not the location that draws people to it, it's Bass and the people he draws to it, that is the gravitating force.

Same with Violet Flame as far as I'm aware; when there's a charismatic figure-head working to do things with people, people are eager to interact there.  When it's a bunch of 'leadership' infighting about who has the biggest wand, people get bored with it quickly.

That's generally how things end up working. If the active player/players leave, and no one steps up to take their place, the group dies off.

It's basically by design, because if people have lost interest, well, better for the staff to focus on running stuff around the groups people are interested in, rather than trying to artificially inflate it for dead ones.

I'm gone for a week and this happens. What even.

Yup, your fault!

Clockwork was dead. I tried to revive it and ended up with a a small group of players. Half of them got run off the server for various reasons. I was left with a mostly dead group again. It ended up being a tough RL time for me and I could not put in the time to get it going again. I invited Bass a footstep in, I got further tied up with RL stuff and was mostly away from the server for several weeks. When I was able to get going again, Bass tried to strong arm Tene into handing it over. She didn't give in. Bass left to Stonehaven which was already being formed.

I didn't have time or energy to go back into rebuilding it so I passed its control on to Belorian. Up to here where it went form there.


Yes, guilds/troupes whatever have life cycles. Some grow, some fade. Sometimes you can hit it with the defibrillator and jump start it. Sometimes you just don't get a rhythm back. At the end of the day though, it takes a committed group, not a single person to make it work. 

Okay time for my two cents. Bass is an asshole. Dom is not Bass if you think that you really need to step back and speak to him ooc for a while. Now on that subject i have three pc's i play on CD for my pc's i take a part of myself and put them into the pc and take it to an extreme. Kyle, Cecilia and Alice. Two don't get on with Bass.

Kyle is my i suppose sense of injustice he has had a real crappy life up until he was an adult. Kyle thinks he is an asshole as he doesn't like how he treats other people and so just generally avoids him especially after a comment he made about his daughter that was.. really out of line.. the thing was even Bass knew when he said it that even for him it was really out of line. But i understood that was Bass and not Dom saying those things to me.

Ce is frankly a bitch as much as bass is an asshole she dislkes him i dont' make any secret of that. There are many reasons for that some are OOC and i don't want to go into cause of the metagaming but basically ce doesn't like men a whole lot. She really doesn't like men who are Assholes. Bass is loud he is obnoxious and he is the kind of man ce hates and wants brought low. But this is all IC ce is a bitch i try not to be in real life. If ce had the opportunity and couild get away with it for free (i have told dom this ooc on several occasions) she would kill him. Her hatred has just gotten to that point. Though it's difficult to do that when you can't stand being near someone so it makes it intresting for her to have another goal.

Alice is my quirky sense of humour. She is well.. probalby mental.

Now in reagrds to Stonehaven. Bass worked hard on getting that off the ground. I respect him for that i know what it's like it's not easy to get a project going. Ce worked long and hard to get her club built and i am hoping to get an opening for it soon. It took a lot of work. And by the way for people who think Aelie is boring i don't think i could have gotten the club built if Ce hadn't bothered to enlist the help of the councilors. Aelie was one who did a lot of work to help Ce. She will always be grateful for that.

If you think someone is being nasty to you try and speak to them with a level head. People over react and jump to conclusions.

Fire is my friend now.. though actually for a long while he and I didn't get on and the first time i was on this server after a disagreement with him i left it was a few years before i came back. I am glad i did. And i am glad of the things i have been able to build here. I am also glad of some of the friends i have made while i have played here too.

He didn't try to strong-arm her.  He was the reason there was any active members.  The proof is in the pudding, as when he left ... interest dropped off completely.  My point is, there are some characters that are so gravitational that no matter what they're involved with, the group forms itself naturally.  I don't even put a name on what's going on with Stonehaven.  There's a reason we don't as a group.  It's malleable.  We don't expect people that don't live there to help if we needed it, but we don't generally refrain from inviting some of them along with us on excursions regardless.  

Bass is one such character.  Requiem was as well.  So was Peldszar.  Runai is also one such character (I've never even RP'd with him, but I know when he's around actively, there's an influx in elven RP).  So no, it doesn't take a committed group, but one person to be willing to put ideas out there and try to draw people to their story.

Is this still a thread about antagonism, or can we rename it to The Virtues and Pitfalls of Stonehaven et al?

Factional disagreements and jealousy have historically been a significant component of drama on CD. Note that I'm not saying that's the case here, merely pointing out that it is something that people take seriously as an area of concern.

And what I'm then trying to point out is that it really shouldn't be, because the only thing that makes factions what they are is player interest.

Yes, factions that are active tend to attract people who want to be involved with active groups. Chicken and egg, and all that. Conversely it can be hard to get things going when it's already at a dead stop, but that doesn't mean that there's anything stopping you.

Yes, when Bass left the ones Bass brought with him left with him. That's not the point. You missed my point entirely and actually helped make it for me. My point was that for long term survival of a group you need more than just a Bass, a Peldszar or a Runai. It takes more than a single person committed to the group to make it last. At least in Stonehaven you have a core of multiple people who are pushing to make it work which is why it will likely survive more long term than others when RL or whatever takes one away for a while. Its why like groups such as the Blue Thorns lasted for as long as they did. We had a larger group who all wanted to keep it together. Even when the two initial founders left, it kept on for quite a while until slowly attrition of members and OOC issues caused members to leave making it fade away.

If I was admin I'd just ban all of you.

Players, ha!  PWs would be great if it wasn't for all the damn players!

*shakes cane*

If play an a-hole character you can be the victim of your own success very easily.

You play a real mean, real nasty, total a-hole character, to the hilt. Worth an Academy Award. And guess what? People will belive in it. Your act becomes reality. Your excellent RP skills are your undoing.

I think the reason people might hate Dom (even not knowing him) is that they only got interaction from him through the IC RP of Bass. Which is -by design- very mean. It would take quite a lot of balancing to even it out. By being OOCly kind to the other players, or by playing other, non a-hole characters. To project not only the mean, bad-tempered side. If somebody saw the movie 'Tropical Storm' he could remember the advice Robert Downey Jr. gave to Ben Stiller: don't be a 100% retarded. Words to live by.

Please don't even start to say 'this is only a game' and 'this should not be taken so seriously'. People are not working that way. If they were, there would be no such things as racism or prejudice on Earth, which is obviously not so. If somebody gets only negative experiences, negative emotions, these will rub on him, even if it is only a game. And slowly it changes his perception.

I have no OOC issue with Dom. Sindel and Bass had some IC situations, which I consider strictly IC. My only advice to him: try to project more positive emotions into your RP to even out the negative flood, which is Bass. Take more OOC effort to be kind to the other players, or maybe play a character who is a kind fellow. That could help restore the balance. Do not change Bass, it would mean the death of that concept. But there are other ways to get the balance of perception restored.

For the other players: try to steel yourself a bit. I fully understand that it can be hard to handle this and 99% of the people actually can't walk away unscatched from such a flood of negativity, even if it is only in a game. But at least you should try it.

Wheaton's Law.

Some of us RP it.  Others just are.

The people that seem convinced I'm a dick ooc'ly are those that are constantly trying to change the way I RP and assume my refusal to do so, is me being a dick.  I'm not sorry for the way in which I defend myself, when someone can't be assed to differentiate between IC and OOC.

Can someone summarize where we started to where we are now to see what kind of progress this has made?

I can be guilty of walking away scratched/hurt from time to time. I have little problems steeling against isolated negativity, but if an entire group in one sitting levels that negativity (even knowing it is IC), it's hard to handle it without enough measure of positivism to offset it.

It's hard to describe, being as I've rarely hit any points of outright exclusion on the server. It's sort of like feeling like being a scene extra and rather than enhancing a scene, maybe it was better off if you weren't involved. Getting the feeling you were included along on something out of a sense of obligation to invite you rather than actually being wanted along.

There are great suggestions in this thread, despite being a beaten horse, but many can be easier said than done.

I'm an extreme introvert. The comfort level is not there to even send an out of character message if I'm not sent one first. I have difficulty asking for things, stating opinions, or even showing that anything is ever wrong. I oft put up a false face when I'm bothered, attempting to "steel" it. It's not easy for my personality to "form a group and do something" as I'm naturally inclined to follow instead of lead. This naturally leads me to cling to my comfort zones and familiar faces. It's also why my original CD character is a concept that is so far removed from me - someone constantly excitable, eager to meet new faces, outgoing and almost void of discrimination. It works when I get the momentum, but when I meet an overly rigid wall of resistance, I find I can't keep up the character portrayal and find myself withdrawn and quieted as I unconsciously channel "me".

That's on me, I suppose, and my problem for being socially inept and awkward. Maybe not even solvable or relatable, but I suppose I just wanted to point out that there are people naturally ill suited to solve the problem in suggested ways just as there are those who can easily do so.

Presumably nowhere, since I'm pretty sure the prime offenders would just avoid this thread with a passion.

Pretty much.

I don't think it's respectful to sign up for a quest, proceed to openly antagonize the group from the get-go, and then leave the options of:
-quit the group ("You knew who was signed up for the quest, so you shouldn't have come")
-take the abuse in-character and letting those forceful characters take over (not fun for the group as a whole)
-stand up to the antagonism, only to see it used as a convenient vehicle to PvP
-split the party (read: never split the party)

Our DMs spend time to think up, develop a story, spend time to create all the quest-specific assets, and spend time to run these preparations and interact with a group of players all at once. It's disrespectful to crap on that and derail it because you personally feel like egging someone on in order to have some PvP.

I was hesitant to join up because of some those who signed on, but I took the chance that things wouldn't derail based on the full compliment of players. Lesson learned, I suppose.

I think it's disrespectful for people that can't be assed to sign up on a forum for a quest, bitch and moan about joining it only to be intentionally an irritation toward characters that signed up for it in advance.  This in no way refers to you personally.

As for my part, I play a toxic character.  I didn't use it as a convenient vehicle to pvp.  But if the shoe fits, I'm gonna wear that fucking thing till the sole falls off.  I bowed out of an event that was turning my toxic character to act against what I intended for.  I'm not going to degrade my RP to put up with people I have zero tolerance for.  IC or OOC.  I apologize if my doing as I was asked, ruined an event for anyone else that was pre-signed on.  The others?  I couldn't care less.

This was the very epitome of why I don't bother signing on to events on C/D.  It was also my first sign on, as stated.  It will be the last.

Precisely my feelings as well. IF the character that created the initial conflict in the first place had originally been in the roster for the event it would be easier to side with those who say characters should be protected from the in-character repercussions of their actions, but let's look at what -actually- happened in two very good examples.

1. Voss kills any potential captives, making interrogation difficult - if not impossible. This, in turn, pisses off Zoey who had been trying to take a captive. Zoey responds to Voss' in-character actions with threatening pvp against him. As a player I -could- have complained OOC that Zoey is a higher level than me and I feel like my RP is being confined by virtue of the fact that pvp with Zoey blocks off avenues for my character to behave as he (and I) want him to. Should it be expected that Zoey just magically changes her mind and decides "Oh, it's fine. Go ahead and kill them. I wanted to kill you a few moments ago but I don't anymore. Not sure why, but there you have it." No more than it should be expected for a paladin not to slay a fiend that's killing a baby in front of him. Some things simply break the setting and the RP of other characters far too much to be allowed. Had Zoey PVPed Voss and Voss lost you know what I'd do? Have him behave like she wants! Why? Because realistically as a character he's not going to keep pushing a conflict he can't win because HE'S NOT A FUCKING IDIOT. (seriously, even with 10 wis death is a pretty persuasive argument.)

2. Bass revives the slain captain for interrogation. The interrogation is going well and the captain is divulging his secrets without any real resistance. Behind Bass stands tenor_general's character Ana who keeps gesturing and trying to get the captain's attention. Obviously the captain is going to notice her - and stop paying attention to the interrogation, causing the whole group to waste precious time (this is something multiple members of the group had already mentioned they were concerned about). So, Bass turns around and warns her not to interfere. A verbal warning making his intention to follow up that warning with violence if it is not heeded. At -this- point tenor's character had an in-character choice to make. Either the character could ignore Bass's warning and risk the consequences or heed it, allow the interrogation to finish quicker (making the whole party happier since the event seemed somewhat time-sensitive), and seek other less conflict oriented ways of engaging in the event (anything from turning the party against Bass to doing what one character - Raina - did and looking for alternative clues or methods for completing the task). As a player which would you choose? Well, in this case the player chose to test Bass' warning and he followed through just as he had warned he would do. And even then, he stopped short of killing her and backed off. At this point the rational, logical continuation of the event would be for the character that just got bloodied to either seek revenge for the slight, bow down and back off to quietly brood and potentially come up with a way to unmake him, or decide this man is unstable and walk away from the event, losing a little bit of rp xp but maintaining the character's consistency. Is that what happened? Nope. Instead it appears the player's first response was to immediately take up an out-of-character complaint with the DM that ultimately derailed the event to the point where -every- player involved was left only with the option of compromising their character's personality and rp or walking away.

Voss walked away because as a player I will never put my character in a situation where a reaction that has been consistent in his rp up until that point is ruled an invalid option for completely ooc reasons. As a player I would rather miss out on a little bit of dm-granted xp or even dm-granted items for the sake of maintaining the consistency of my character and the story I'm building with and for him. I believe the others who walked away did so for the same reason because when a DM says "we continue without pvp" and you're in a party as an evil character and it's full of good characters who you can pretty assuredly beat you're not going to back down unless someone makes you.

I understand why the DM made the choice and I don't question it, but the DM also gave an option of "this is my ruling - if you don't like it, leave." So, I left...and Bass left...and Mouse left...and Velenya left...and Jared left. Why? Well, for two of the characters our roleplay had basically been determined for us beyond our control and why bother playing if our characters are just going to be hijacked? For the other three? Well, at least two of them trust Bass and Voss and kinda felt that they didn't want to stick around with a bunch of people they don't know and can't trust. For the last, well, he follows Velenya wherever she goes. That was 5 players out of what? 13 or more?

That still leaves the DM with at least 7 or 8 players - an amount most DMs wouldn't have more than in the party to begin with and for some reason these five players leaving caused the event to end? How is that?

If the DM decided to end the event with those players leaving they did so as a -choice- not because they were forced. Much like none of us left the event because we were forced. We -chose- not to compromise rp for the sake of a little bit of dm xp. And I'd make the same choice again any day. Not only that, but on the forums and in tells in game it was understood by us and the DM that pvp was entirely possible and eve -likely- given the roster signed up for the event. And that was before people who weren't on the original roster began showing up.

The take away?

Once again, certain players try to hide behind OOC shields to protect them from the consequences of In-character actions and shatter the immersion of every player around them for the sake of getting their way. You know what kind of PVP breaks rp and shuts your character out of reacting? When a player simply hostiles you, walks up, and kills you. No talking, no warnings, no threats. You know what kind of PVP I have yet to see take place on any of my characters? THAT kind. Bass -warned- that character before he ever took action. He gave that character a -choice- and promised consequences depending on the choice made. That is not a higher level pushing pvp. That's you making a choice to engage in pvp when your character could have avoided it. If your character is dead-set on doing whatever it is they're told to stop, then they've accepted the consequences. You must as well. If you're not able to accept those consequences then you should not play your character in such a way as to suggest that they do. (In short, if you're going to cry OOC when a character keeps their promise to you, don't force them to keep it.)

I want everyone to consider something from this event. Had the DM ruled differently, what would've happened? Bass and Voss would've continued to be a potential pvp threat, and Bass - the more experienced, epic-level character - would lead the party through whatever trials they faced to a successful finish. Would there be conflict? Undoubtedly, but up until that point Bass had led and kept the party in motion and if his rp was so blocking to others in the party why is it that the ranger managed to go off on her own and find an alternative solution while everyone was squabbling? Why is it that only -the- person he warned in-character was subject to pvp and not every character that he professed a dislike or annoyance for?

Had the DM ruled differently at most 3 people would've left the event from what it seemed to me. And honestly, it's likely none of those 3 would because they've demonstrated that to them the rp xp from the event was more important than remaining true to their character (based on the fact that these players would rather throw ooc hate at other players than recognize the choice that was given and made and why it was made). Would the event still have ended? No way to know. Would fewer people have felt like they wasted their time? Absolutely. Would the DM be more satisfied? I believe so. Would immersion have been shattered so completely as it had been for the satisfaction of a single player's ego? I doubt it.

In short: I don't blame the DM for what happened. A choice was given and made. If said DM expected the players to compromise their character's rp for the sake of event xp...then I guess it's clear now that with some people that just won't happen. Someone during the event mentioned that it was the DM's event so they chose how everything happened. I wanted to argue then, but I didn't. So I will here. A DM does not tell the characters how to rp - that is not their job. Their job is to provide the characters with stimuli to react to. That's why it's called an "event" and not a "rehearsal." When a DM says: "No PvP for the rest of this event" - they are telling characters how they must react to the stimuli and overstepping their bounds. However, if a DM chooses to do this in their own event, then by every right they can. But when players leave because they make this choice they have as much right to complain about it as players who complain about the in-character consequences their characters bring on themselves do.

Oh, and before anyone cries clique or "your group plays together all the time so you're just looking out for one another" I have screenshots from the entire thing as it happened. Anyone curious to see them to make your own judgments feel free to let me know. That's how confident I am that BS doesn't smell like roses or look like gold.

Once upon a time, it was said that the ultimate goal of CD was to provide fun for a maximum number of people.

I'm just going to say one thing:  For me, this really doesn't justify walls of text.  Stuff happened, people have their opinions, there are facts to the series of events, and it's over.  

As far as Ana's actions, if you are 100% sure you know her motivations and assumptions, by all means ascribe motives to her actions.  If you're not because you don't play her or interact with her often, then perhaps assumptions are not the best way to go.

I was having fun and saw absolutely nothing wrong with the RP as was presented. I have been integrating very slowly with the Stonehaven crew for over a month now, and knew of them for almost one before that. My guy is an outsider who is grating to some of them because he has differing views and the like, but he has not been chased off nor unfairly treated, OOC'ly. If he steps out of line IC'ly he gets swatted down, IC'ly. I am perfectly happy with this. IC actions have IC consequences and despite being "toxic" Bass is not as hard to to play with unless you directly, repeatedly antagonize him for no reason or are a a nuisance to the player OOC'ly and let that bleed into IC interactions. I am not saying that it happened here, but I know it has happened in the past and when that happens it does become an aggravating problem.

Nothing that happened there was bad or OOC'ly disruptive in of itself.

And Notarurk those kind of posts are not helpful. These kinds of things need to be discussed when they happen or they just lead to resentment which causes flare ups in the future. Fun is subjective, as is what ruins that fun. There was no ruining of fun for a "maximum number of people," to my knowledge.

It's not helpful to remind everyone of what a basic principle of the game is? If you think it was pointed at anyone in particular, that's your business.

My point is that, in the past, people have been told to suck it up, when maintaining a general amount of harmony or a maximum amount of enjoyment for as many people as possible, required getting off one's high horse of RP standards.

I've had this principle pointed out to me many times. Many others have as well. It's likely that it will have to happen again.

Discussing is fine, but, people need to take it easy, too.

There is a continued problem of taking IC conflict and consequences as OOC.  If you have an issue in a DM event with the way a situation was handled don't drag it OOC and don't drag out a long argument with the DM.  I do believe that we have now circled back around to the original issue.  This is not a limited incident, and it is certainly not limited to interactions with Bass (or his "crew").

This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine.  Even without being there, the fact that a player (any player) took the consequence to a DM during the event to attempt to change the interaction is disrespectful to the DM and other players.  I have been known to kick players from events for similar actions.  If you have an issue, and don't like my immediate ruling, you may bring it up later.  I'm here to tell a story.  If you derail the plottrain due to IC actions, I will respond with IC consequences.  If you derail the event for OOC bickering, I will boot you from the event.  End of story.  I am not here to babysit you.  If you join in an event KNOWING another player/character with whom you do not get along is already involved, you need to reread an earlier post.


The only victim in this incident is Daphne, who I will be lending my Vorpal Drama-bane Maul of Smiting.  (Good grief woman, what were you thinking taking a quest with THAT MANY characters involved? j/k)

Just as a follow-up to what I posted earlier: The fact that we actually have honest to goodness sign-up sheets for plots means this server isn't meant to be "hardcore".

Allow me to sum up some issues with the whole quest. My views, my opinions, my thoughts. As usual, they will be summed up in easy to argue bullet points.

1) Anyone invited by the DM to the quest has just as valid a reason to be there as anybody else. It doesn't matter if they signed up on the forums a month ahead of time or if they asked the DM five minutes beforehand and the DM said 'Sure, come along!' The only advantage conferred by signing up is that you're guaranteed a spot in the quest. Late-comers and last-minute substitutes are going to happen as long as no-shows do.

2) One problem I got a tell or two about involved players on lower-level characters feeling they were being totally shut out of interaction with the actual quest by the near-constant threats, intimidation, and implied violence coming out of high effective level PCs. Pushing the quest down a particular path and implying that anyone who doesn't listen to you deserves to die, even if totally in-character, makes people feel unwelcome and unwanted OOCly - As Notaturk said, we're not exactly a hardcore RP server here - and discourages interaction, especially if the person doing the intimidating can kill the person receiving it with no real difficulty. You say IC actions should have IC consequences, and yes, they should. But I also argue that it's the duty of high-level PCs not to swing their mechanical advantages around and browbeat low-level PCs, since then the high-levels are effectively immune to IC consequences themselves.

3)  Epic level characters are both a blessing and a curse to a quest.  On one hand they provide immense power and capability to a group.  On the other hand, it's all too easy for them to start dominating a quest with their massive mechanical power, top-tier equipment, and godly dice rolls.  This is something I've often had to struggle with on Aelie, who faces the same problem.  As a personal opinion, I feel that if an epic PC gets in a group with a lot of sub-epic characters they should be doing what they can to include and involve all the lower-levels rather than personally leading the charge and doing as much of it as possible themselves.  Yes it's faster and more efficient for the epic to bumrush everything, but it leaves a lot of people feeling like window-dressing.  Add PvP potential into the mix and that only amplifies things.

*  This is more informational than an argument, but open PvP is actually relatively new to this server.  Two years ago having a quest break down because of PvP issues would have been entirely unheard of - Conflicts still occurred but were handled differently.  There are still a lot of us old-timers that will be surprised and even a bit offended by people freely exercising mechanical PvP because we're just not used to it, and a lot of DMs that just don't like seeing it happen.  In my own personal experience, no matter the game or the skill of the players involved mechanical PvP tends to create a lot of drama unless handled perfectly between two consenting parties, so I try to avoid it if at all possible.

forums.cormyrdalelands.com/index.php?topic=8



People joining quests spontaneously happens from time to time. Some DMs are open to it, others stick strictly to their sign ups. If there was a perceived issue with particular players, it shouldn't have been allowed to run course as long as it did. However, the problem then becomes "who do you exclude?" I signed on with Raina while the event was still empty of players. Zoey, who was one of the group the conflict and "intentional irritation" came from, signed up in advance as well.

I understand how Bass acts as a character, how Voss does and how much of a "might is right" Lord of the Flies thing they have going on. That's perfectly fine as a model and great if you are all having fun. I only take issue when it bleeds over to cover the enjoyment of others. Your line of reasoning is that Bass was in charge by virtue of being the most powerful and it was fine for anyone to challenge him and accept the consequences or leave. That was my issue exactly. At the behest of "maintaining rp integrity" it was fine to bully the other characters. I don't know how many times I've read over and over how this is a cooperative server, how ECL or level shouldn't matter, but you cannot say what happened today was not the result of strong-arming.



So it's "leave my event because I want to role play my way and you're in the way"?





Is there evidence that any player made an OOC complaint about the PvP, or is this undue mudslinging? I would argue myself that the plot was derailed from the constant threats being thrown IC left and right (and there was a single OOC one I caught that was in reference to player, not character intelligence). A DM is not running an event to babysit or watch pvp arena warfare. They are there with a story and an agenda. Apologies if you feel this compromises your character, but some massaging needs to be done or overlooked for the sake of everyone's enjoyment.



We didn't leave the event. The DM decided to postpone it (to an as of yet determined date) because of how horribly derailed it had gotten. It was supposed to be about a hired group investigating a strange plague and not the "Bass and Friends Happy Time Fun Show". Integrity, again, is fine, but it has to be tempered knowing that the story isn't just yours, but a collaborative effort.



With every future party decision having to be run by the "more experienced, epic level character" first or suffering his disdain or wrath? This wasn't a war scenario, it was an investigation. One of the popular DM checks and balances in PnP is the concept of sharing the spotlight. During a game session (in this case an event), a DM should aim to let everyone have a chance to shine in some way. Maybe the group rogue can handle that rusty lock? Maybe the ranger can ask the animals what they saw? Big bad boss enemy? Barbarian has it covered. But try as a DM might to create these opportunities, the players still need to recognize them and know when to step back and pass the spotlight. That's how collaborative storytelling works.

That doesn't mean you have to stop being an asshole in character, but it is more respectful to know when to back down and perhaps tick a check box in your head to sulk about it or get even later.



I did that as per DM direction in response to a skill check, and the whole thing actually flared up in the short span I stepped away from the group. But it was an over-boiling pot from the start, and if things hadn't flared up then, they surely would have later.



I cannot speak for everyone, but I mainly go to events to enjoy myself and the story the DM put together. I'm not going "for the sake of event xp".



This sums it up succinctly. If your character behaving a disruptive way is going rain on the parade of the majority of the group, maybe it is best to find an alternative approach that still fits your character.



Did you miss the part where the group broke apart, the DM called off the event and everyone shuffled offline because of the sour taste it left?

I am the DM of the talked about quest. I HATE conflict especially among friends. I am a new DM and also a human. I am Positive I made a mistake, and for that I am sorry and will continue to learn and grow in my DMing. 

That being said. Some of the words and tones on this post are very aggressive and in some areas quite hurtfull. Also some of the things stated never happened. 

I am more than open to talk about what happend and explain what happened on my end from my point of view. I also encourage anyone who feels the need to refer to the admins if it is felt needed over this issue.

At this time all I want is for there to be no conflicts in and out of character.  

Thank you for your understanding, Nevermore

So to sum it up for you in tl;dr.  You're better than me in every possible way, and never 'take charge' of a quest or brow-beat lower level players.  Got it.  As I said, which I believe will be good for every future quest that certain people slog their vapid characters into at any chance; I will not make another attempt to get into an announced quest (Unless directly invited by those involved).  I apologize that I went out of my way, conferred with said DM about it before hand that conflict was a real possibility and was told it would be handled appropriately IC; then attempted to join a group event.  I am more than happy to resume hanging in my own little RP corner, taking fairy-ticks in order to mechanically advance.  Some of us don't need DM XP to feel fulfilled.  And just because you, yourself aren't involved in 'hard core rp' (what ever that even means?) doesn't mean some people don't (however silly the theory) take their ability to be consistent with their RP seriously.  Even in DM events.  I wont dumb down the ideals I have of my character, because people can't handle being in that character's presence.  No matter how much RP XP is being offered.  People knew Bass was involved in the event as he was one of those that 'so pointlessly' signed up.  The fact that they're even remotely surprised by how he/I acted in the event, is quite hilarious to me.  That's like going into a dungeon with a dragon and being amazed he bothered fighting back!  YOU KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.  

At least to his credit, Tenor didn't seem overly stressed about the situation (AND IT INVOLVED HIM DIRECTLY) ... he may have said something in tells to another, but as far as I saw, it wasn't anything that surprised him.  And I appreciate that more than I may be able to let on at the moment.

Regardless, I tried to add some fun to the event and utterly failed through actions and reactions.  I apologize to Nevermore if my RP caused a derailing and ultimately ruined her event.  I was told my character would be given hard-coded restrictions in said event, and I chose to leave.  I can't claim responsibility for how any others reacted to this situation.  I would have preferred if those four that left with me had stayed involved, and I told them as much.  I've never placed a priority on gaining RP XP, but I would like to see those that enjoy RP with me aren't restricted from interacting with others.  Or forced to abstain from gaining RP Xp because of my influence, however indirectly.

Minor Correction here... with Voss's ECL he is higher than Zoey. And I was fully prepared for IC consequences when I had her threaten him because she was rightfully pissed off. I also was a little OOCly pissed off as you stated you did something would have opposed instead of stating you were trying to do something in which case we could have made opposed rolls for it. Next time you plan to do something, please give someone the courtesy of trying to oppose the action instead of simply stating it. You could have stated " Voss then tries to cleave the guys head off " instead of just stating he did so. That left me no room to try to oppose the action and borders on god modding. I rolled with it and assumed then that she failed to notice his intent and simply followed up with her next course of action which was to threaten him. That said, in future I hope you do take things such as this in consideration as it borders on godmodding. 

As far as the quest goes.... I told the DM it was their quest.. their ruling. We needed to abide or drop. The DM will always have my support in such decisions even if I disagree with it.

This.  Thank you.

Incidentally.. considering how the event broke apart I am considering it to have never happened unless you wish to proceed otherwise.

Quite the opposite Dom, I have a bit of a problem with taking over quests Aelie's involved in and I have to constantly remind myself to ease up on it.  It's hard, especially when you're really focused on getting the job done because you can do it a lot better than everyone else.

Maybe I'm mistaken that your quoting my post means you're aiming most of this at me, but you also seem to misinterpret my involvement in this particular situation - Aside from a passing comment or two to a friend during the buildup to the inevitable, I didn't actually get involved until well after everything had exploded onto the OOC plane.  People were posting opinions here and I gave mine hoping to avert an explosion like this in the future.  You know perfectly well I have a habit of speaking for other people.  I personally probably would have left the quest after the first PvP action simply because my character is an obnoxious do-gooder and wouldn't be able to tolerate being in the presence of people acting that way.  She was already considering leaving when everything happened and rendered the whole thing moot.

I chose to drop from the event; I even mentioned to the DM that I would bow out if she only asked.  I wasn't intent on even forcing the ruling.  And I fully support her decision, regardless whether or not I agree with it.  

When you take part in a DM event, that DM is in charge.  Period.

That means actions you want to take, need to be cleared through the DM.

Furthermore, if you can't 'tolerate' others in the event, either don't sign up, or keep your shit together and get through it.

This is very simple.  We are all on the same side here. We are here to have fun, tell stories etc.  IC conflicts are going to happen. KEEP THEM IC.

Look.  I have been here since the beginning. 9 years.  And you know what? After 9 years I am TIRED of this kind of drama.  Get along, have fun with your stories.  Stop fighting amongst yourselves.

This this this this THIS. I am sick and tired of coming onto the forums every evening and seeing the same bunch of people whining and complaining and fighting. This is why I left in the first place, and every time I see it, it makes me wonder if it was really worth it to come back.

There are some seriously aggressive posts here.  Maybe take a break and relax before posting.  They don't really help anyone.

I wasn't there, but there has been some good advice given for all events:

• Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Events have a lot of moving parts and dominating the entire thing, while may be IC for your character, means you're OOCly ignoring the golden rule of the server.  Let others players shine too.  This is also about dialing back on your aggressive PCs if you want to be involved with other people outside of your IC friends.  
• Events are supposed to be fun.  PvP is generally not fun (well maybe for the winning player), so try to consider other people in these DM events (specifically the DM).  Not everyone can roll Player v player combat into the middle of an event.  Consider that the DM is taking time out of their day to run something (that should be) fun for your character.
  
• Don't make assumptions.  If someone engaged in PvP with out asking the DM, I'd get them out of the event fairly quick regardless if another player complained or not (unless I really knew everyone involved pretty well).  It's not a surprise that it derailed the event. 
• Just for event XP.  I would wager that people like the fun of the even over event XP.  Seems to be a rather jarring comment.
• Listen to the DM.  Don't take it personally.  

Maybe I'm too out of touch with the way NWN works these days, but this seems like basic common sense that we used to operate on.  

+1 to each bullet. And the last comment, that is how we used to roll to. Not sure what is going on CD right now that there OOC choices (aka character creation of character that are by nature conflicting) which are made to generate IC conflict.

(It wasn't.)

Minor correction here: Voss's ECL is ooc info and shouldn't really factor into your rp if credence is to be given to the multiple posts of late -by admins- about ecls and their role on the server. I respect that you were "fully prepared for IC consequences" but considering I've had you personally attempt to tell me how to rp my character before in the past you'll understand if I don't take you seriously when you leap to the defense of players attempting to do the same. As far as "god-modding" goes, I have to disagree with you here. She rendered the man unconscious - I saw no roll to do that. Furthermore, exactly how would she stop Voss from cutting his head off? The man is unconscious, which means any attack on him is a coup de grace. Pray tell how your character is going to have any chance of stopping Voss from making any form of attack? I consciously did this in order to expedite what was a foregone conclusion (that the man would be undeniably dead) while limiting the potential for pvp. How's that? Well, unlike some I understand that pvp from words is far easier to stop than pvp from actions. I figured Zoey would threaten and Voss would react but has the option to do so without going into full pvp - a bit of verbal sparring and posturing and then we all move on our way since there's an epic cleric who can raise the dead anyway...

But let's say we had done things your way. You and I then hijack the event and spam the dm channel with rolls that contribute nothing to everyone else's fun. If Voss takes a threatening action against the downed man and Zoey intervenes we then engage in pvp - which drags the event even -more- off-topic and bogs the DM down even more when she was already overwhelmed by the number and temperament of the party. If this is truly an example of godmodding then as I did with your last botched "dm call" about how my character rps I'll defer to an admin for their take on the matter given both of our descriptions of what happened and my rationale.

Lastly, another correction to your post: you didn't tell "the DM" it was their quest. You told the party - or you told both. Which, honestly, if I was the DM I'd probably be a bit insulted to have a player presume they need to remind me that the quest I'd organized, planned, and prepared was in fact mine. It's somewhat condescending. That said, we chose to make our case to the DM to appeal their decision - in full transparency to the party so that others who disagreed could make it a discussion and not bombard the dm with tales in typical cloak and dagger tactics for conflict resolution. What did we receive in return? Simply that mantra of yours rather than any form of open discourse. I'm assuming it's likely the DM was being badgered in tells to the point where they felt the choice they made was the only one and hardly had a chance to see or consider opposed viewpoints. Even so, do notice that Bass and Voss left the event without fuss after that DM ruling. We said nothing to anyone afterwards - not the DM or players - in-character or ooc. We accepted the ruling without another word on it and I still support her ruling, even if I disagree. Hell, I even thanked her afterwards and wished her luck in the rest of the event (and no, I wasn't being snarky).

Yet, the -real- issue here is that immediately after this decision was made by the DM and by us someone - or someones - felt the need to drag it here to the forums to become an OOC mess that does nothing but shame us all along with the server in general. This mess being out here in the open for all to see serves no purpose but to continue to hurt the DM - who was very upset by the whole thing - and satisfy the egos of the same people who seem to consistently sacrifice others for the sake of said egos.

It's disgusting, and to be perfectly honest any person who wishes to have anything to do with someone like that can content themselves to have nothing to do with me IC or OOC in the future. I have no tolerance for such selfishness or petty immaturity in a place where we're all supposed to be adults.

Nevermore did the best she could with what she had, and I do not blame her for a single thing that transpired. Yeah, she may have made some mistakes with the party size or not considering just how volatile different personalities could be, but ultimately this did not happen and come to be the debacle that it is because of anything nevermore, dom101, myself, or anyone else who walked away from the event did. It became such a debacle because some people have no class, dignity, or tact to speak of. And you know who you are.

I am requesting - begging - as a player here who wants -everyone- to be able to have fun. If you are one of these people, please grow the up or find a server that expects to cater to your needs and no one else's.

I brought up the ECL because you brought up Zoey's level. You, by ignoring your ECL, in the comparison you misrepresented the case.

As far as what could I have done, attempted to deflect the strike, imposed myself in its way, a number of other similar types of things could have been done. Yes, we would have had to do rolls, and I am sorry if that would have slowed it down for you. Yes it could have gone a number of different ways. Not all of which would have lead to full on PVP.  I too would have tried to keep it from going into full on PVP for the sake of the group, but if it occurred I was prepared to do so. 

As for the talk to the DM, I DID tell them as they asked me for advise as another DM. I told them it was their choice what to do and I would support them no matter what. Please do not tell me what I did or did not do. I did not step in and tell Nevermore what to do, I simply reaffirmed Nevermore that they had backup no matter what they decided and offered my thoughts from my point of view (My reply was on DM channel so is not shown in screenie ... Zoey's line win the screenie was also supposed to go to DM channel as well)





I am sorry asking you to stop saying "C*NT" every 5 minutes because it is exceedingly offensive is considered telling you how to RP. 

You're not exactly being constructive here with comments like that.

Alright, for FUCK'S SAKE.

Look.

Do I need to shut the server down for a few days so people can get their shit together and at least PRETEND to act like adults?

No, I have extended apologies to those involved that I can.  I'll be avoiding extended RP with the server as a whole as I tend to do when something like this happens.  And I'm sorry it was brought to the forums rather than handled discreetly as was attempted by a few of us with Nevermore.

I'm bowing out for a few days myself.  This has gotten entirely out of control and my argumentativeness is NOT helping anything.

Similarly I apologize for this mess on the forums. It makes us all look bad. I've apologized to nevermore and assured her what she did was right. I extend an apology as well to the players on the original roster because the event was made less fun by what transpired.

Have you asked the same of yourself?

Why is it that if folks don't agree with your idea of fun ICly that they are the one's that have to have their needs specifically catered to elsewhere?

Look I'll be honest, I grew up cutting my teeth and throughout all my time gaming with 1 core precept and rule: These RPG games (DnD especially) are about collaboration and cooperation.

That onus was on every player. And if you decided to make one that made cooperation and collaboration difficult for whatever reason that sh*t was on you. Not me, not the other players at the table, you. PERIOD.

From my first taste here CD SEEMED like that place. Now I'm not so sure. It seems like the onus is on everyone else to just let the antagonistic characters do whatever, regardless of how it infringes on someone else's definition of fun. So far those choices have been avoid it (essentially bow out of quests and areas where antagonist RP is frequently occuring), engage it (which will end in PvP which not all enjoy) or OOCly ignore it to get through the quest. Hmm sounds a bit like other characters been reduced to just being an NPC in an antagonistic character's single player game. That sucks.

But again,
There are plenty of other venues if you want to play an antagonistic character that prefers to settle IC disputes via violence or intimidation. Why does CD have to be that place?

As the issue is still being discussed, I just want to say that I do take full responsibility for my actions and for the outcome of this quest. I would be very honored if we could learn from and get past it at this point. 

I do also want to let you know. I did ask Onivel for help as he is my superior on the being an experience DM. I thanked him completely while I was overwelmed and trying to cope. I have spoken with my highers and have learned what was wrong and how to improve it in the future. 

I thank you all for considering to reflect on these words and events and urge us all to come back to a realm of respect. I have been speaking with involved parties and will continue to do so. 

Thank you again, Nevermore

How about because that's part of the design?

Let me chime in and say what CD is and isn't.

It's not a place where people are all supposed to work together and be friends ICly.

It's not a place where people aren't allowed to play antagonistic or villainous characters.

It is a place where people are expected to play nice on an OOC level, even if their characters are diametrically opposed, because the point of the game isn't about who "wins", it's about creating a compelling story - something that has room for both good and bad, villain and hero.

Nobody is expected to just "let" themselves be trampled on, and we take great pains to prevent anyone from being able to go so far as to do that, no matter what part of the alignment spectrum they fall on. That doesn't mean that IC conflicts can't be resolved through whatever methods are acceptable to the players involved.

Umm...no one has disagreed with my idea of fun ICly or otherwise openly...as it tends to be "treat others courteously and understand that there are other stories besides your own". I -have- fun on the server most of the time, and those around me seem to as well with the exception of infrequent interactions such as these that get way more ooc attention than they deserve.

And since the rest of your post actually echoes one of mine from a previous thread I'm not really sure what else to say. I recall attempting to give your character a chance to rp with mine so you could form these opinions that you've based off what you've seen solely ooc...and you didn't seem inclined to take me up for whatever reason. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but until you've actually dealt with the characters in-character maybe it's better to just let things be. The irony in all this is Voss doesn't typically resort to violence and intimidation as most seem to think he does. And by most I mean those who have not rped with him once beyond 15 minutes.

Again, I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but having talked to you ooc before in game I wish to invite you ooc again -as I've done IC - to the opportunity to get to know more about a character instead of making assumptions.

At this point, I am kind of with Edge on the topic.  I really want people to start getting along and talking things out, instead of assuming the other person is some horrible monster. I am looking forward to closure on this within the next days, however that looks.  

I have faith it will not require some of the drastic measures contemplated here. :-)

Sincerely,
Arya

Postscript: no leaving, Edge. >:-( Or I will be sad!

What my characters saw was sufficient to know that they wouldn't want to know those antagonistic characters IC or know those antagonistic characters in any way other than to be wary of. That had nothing to do with OOC assumptions, of which I've made none, I've made assertions based on what has been brought forth in this thread and argued essentially a hypothetical position to get to a more concise answer. Which Firewraith answered concisely.

I've never had a problem with the antagonistic characters on the server directly, because my characters see them interact for about three lines of dialogue in the square and think better of further association and certainly would in no way want to have them watching their backs. For good or for ill that is how my PC responded to those characters. All IC. 

I've dodged quests involving those same PCs, as I think its rude to sign up for a quest then bow out because the characters involved aren't those my character would trust ICly enough to travel with them. Or at least there haven't been any quests that ICly my character would care/motivate my character enough to deal with that level of distrust. Or provide other motivations to observe those characters. Again all IC aside from OOC courtesy for the other players on the server, myself and the DM. I see this however as a problem that could emerge for other players.

And it is rare that I interact OOCly, truly the only times I do are to clarify some server specific point of lore,
or during a quest with a DM. There are a few I chat with about lore in general OOCly but I like to maintain my immersion ICly and chatting OOC detracts from that at times.

Honestly, I'd rather people arrange to not be in the same quests if it's going to devolve into a gigantic argument that derails the DM's plans. I don't think that sort of thing is really fun for anyone involved, and is best avoided. Having to arrange around that is a lesser evil, in my mind, at that point.

Ideally though, it wouldn't come to that in the first place, and we wouldn't be trying to shoehorn everyone into the same adventure. Failing that, some more agreement and working together to resolve the IC issues without it turning into a big OOC argument - which from what I've seen of the screenshots so far, it was even before it came to a head - would be the next best thing. But failing those, yes.

I think those in attendance had a fairly nice productive conversation in OOC last night.

I've gotten like five messages from different places promising everything from bribes to bodily harm if I leave. Relax guys, I'm not going anywhere yet.

I'd like to also state how happy the kobolds would be if you left.  Because, you know they run the troll outfit with type writers beneath the earth.  

I disagree arya! I wish more people treated others like the monsters they really are instead of the unusually attractive half monster with a black book on blushing brides.

And this post is a good example of how exhausted this thread is now. It's undeniable ecl are mechanical powerhouses and there's clear evidence that spans back years and years regarding which ecl are chosen to compliment foreplanned, desired builds. But cd is just a sandbox that let's people have fun within this setting. Do I think the setting is being taken advantage of or wish it were different? Yeah, I do. I wish it were more hard core and fundamental, and if there was ever a server for me out there like that, I would've went there.

But this is what I got. And I want everyone who participates creatively to make my free time here interesting to have fun. It isn't their fault I enjoy playing with handicaps so the game is more challenging and enjoyable to me. It isn't their fault I have prejudices against their character ideas because I've seen it already. But it is my fault if I never give then a chance to relax, play, and try my best to get involved anyway. That's all me.

And fuck fixing typoes on a phone. Deal with it.

Honestly that's more what I'd originally envisioned (in roleplay terms). There's a lot of things in CD that were built around the assumption that various things would be approached in a more 'hardcore' fashion than they are presently. It's evolved over time though, and CD is what it is because of the community, not because I (or the other admins) have forced it to be. There are some things on which we absolutely draw the line, but we also try to choose our battles in that space. I've seen far too many servers where the staff tried to hold back the tide, and force their player community to do things and act in ways that weren't fun for everyone... and I didn't want us to go that way.

Just realized that I posted on the wrong thread. Whoops.