Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 14, 2014, 11:23 AM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 14, 2014, 11:23 AM
So, I've been playing with this idea for awhile now and I'd like to put it out there to see how much interest there is in it. Basically Bass wants to get something started IC that will include as many people as possible. Regardless personal opinions. It includes funding and organizing a league for gladiators to fight and win prizes (IE: Items) and gold. Considering he's a battle priest, this makes the most sense.
If I can get 10 people interested in being players, and 5 epics interested in owning a team, we can get this going and start another IC thread to orchestrate a set-up and schedule. This is a minimum. If we have more people than this interested, we'll adjust the stats as necessary.
Owners:
Players:
UPDATE: We've reached our bare minimum. We're still taking more people that will be interested, feel free to post.
- The levels are anyone 20 and below can participate, though if the teams are mis-matched either by level or ECL handicaps will be discussed on a case by case basis. The League council will discuss further.
- Epic level characters can indeed be involved, in that they are welcome to start teams. 250k gold to be paid to the league for each team, this gold being used toward payouts.
- Each team will consist of one fighter/rogue class like build and one caster build.
- Each team can have no more than 3 PC's.
- Should a level 20 become epic during the regular season, they must forfeit their place on the team. If they become epic during a play off series, they are allowed to finish out the series.
- Team owners are responsible for naming their team.
- Each team owner will have a vote on the league council, which will count toward league rulings / guidelines and the approval of new members to the league.
- Initial creation of the league will involve a draft period, where team owners will pick from a pool of players.
- Team owners are allowed to trade players up until play-off series begins.
- Anyone epic level can own a team, so long as they have no less than 2 and no more than 3 players on said team.
If I can get 10 people interested in being players, and 5 epics interested in owning a team, we can get this going and start another IC thread to orchestrate a set-up and schedule. This is a minimum. If we have more people than this interested, we'll adjust the stats as necessary.
Owners:
- Marziima
- Sophia
- Peppyr
- Ife
- Hydaro
Players:
- Voss
- Amizel Dulsaerna
- Sin-Mat
- Nikki
- Geno
- Galas
- Mouse
- Velenya
- Nikolai
- Danax Kallos
UPDATE: We've reached our bare minimum. We're still taking more people that will be interested, feel free to post.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 14, 2014, 11:34 AM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 14, 2014, 11:34 AM
I'll sign up marziima as an owner if need be. Otherwise I'm comfortable handling pvp topside if a dm is needed.
Hopefully I get my pc fixed today.
Hopefully I get my pc fixed today.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: on Oct 14, 2014, 02:12 PM
Post by: on Oct 14, 2014, 02:12 PM
Sophia would like to own a team, because epic levels.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: sinisteromnibus on Oct 14, 2014, 02:22 PM
Post by: sinisteromnibus on Oct 14, 2014, 02:22 PM
Voss would participate as a player. 14 fighter build (18 after ecl). Also, this seems like a fun idea and makes sense for a Tempuran. Kudos on thinking it up.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 14, 2014, 03:23 PM
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 14, 2014, 03:23 PM
If non-epics can own a team, Ife can be a tentative owner? She's got enough to fund/sponsor a team.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Edge on Oct 14, 2014, 03:44 PM
Post by: Edge on Oct 14, 2014, 03:44 PM
Kestal has no interest in owning a team, but if you need judges or coordinators, she's your gal.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Yaldabaoth on Oct 14, 2014, 05:02 PM
Post by: Yaldabaoth on Oct 14, 2014, 05:02 PM
Sin-Mat-Ikali would be interested. Level 14 (17 with ECL) rogueish fighterish type
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Goat on Oct 14, 2014, 06:51 PM
Post by: Goat on Oct 14, 2014, 06:51 PM
Peppyr would totally own a team, or be a judge, or be a vendor!
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 14, 2014, 07:50 PM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 14, 2014, 07:50 PM
onivel does that mean TEAM GARAGOS needs to find a sponsor?
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 15, 2014, 04:29 PM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 15, 2014, 04:29 PM
By the way guys, anyone can join this if they want. It's another attempt to get everyone I can involved in RP that more than a few have said I restrict to my 'clique'.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Valimar Dragonbane on Oct 15, 2014, 05:34 PM
Post by: Valimar Dragonbane on Oct 15, 2014, 05:34 PM
I'd toss my hat into the ring with one of my characters, if I could figure out which of them would be interested in arena based combat. I'll edit this later once I've had a good look through my vault.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Deleted on Oct 15, 2014, 05:56 PM
Post by: Deleted on Oct 15, 2014, 05:56 PM
Cara would sponsor a team. She has two rules... finish what you start, and don't lose. 
Edit: Hrm... or... well, I have a tempermental Tormish caster who might back up her Tempurran buddy if he gets interested. Hold off on signups for now.
Edit: Hrm... or... well, I have a tempermental Tormish caster who might back up her Tempurran buddy if he gets interested. Hold off on signups for now.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 15, 2014, 06:27 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 15, 2014, 06:27 PM
I could have w.m. sponsor team nice and polite!
I can fill in with characters or topside as needed. I'm worried about casters though unless you got some good ideas on that. Normally caster fights on this server is won by whoever jumps the count first.
I can fill in with characters or topside as needed. I'm worried about casters though unless you got some good ideas on that. Normally caster fights on this server is won by whoever jumps the count first.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 15, 2014, 06:38 PM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 15, 2014, 06:38 PM
I intend for the teams to all have a caster and a melee type, so it comes down to tactics more than simply who ever gets the jump. And like I mentioned, if a high level team faces a low level team, there'll be handicaps imposed, that way it's not ridiculously one sided. I aim mostly for this to be something people 14 - 18 can get involved in as players, and epics aren't left out with the opportunity to own teams. Trouble I'm seeing now, is the lack of interest by mid level characters to join as players.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 15, 2014, 06:54 PM
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 15, 2014, 06:54 PM
WELL: To help out your cause, I can say that /if/ Ptolema is an adequate level by the time this happens, I will volunteer her in place of Ife as owner. Is that fair?
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 15, 2014, 07:03 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 15, 2014, 07:03 PM
I can spawn mobs topside if things get too uneven. Can even have groups out trying to wrangle beasts for it.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 15, 2014, 07:36 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 15, 2014, 07:36 PM
Aelie would be happy to serve as a judge or commentator if needed, and could also help beast-wrangle if you want to go along that route.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 10:19 AM
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 10:19 AM
I'm down for some team Garagos Action as Nikki (lvl 14 Cleric)
I'd also be down for some Team White Cloak action as Geno (lvl 14 Fighter).
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Arya on Oct 16, 2014, 10:26 AM
Post by: Arya on Oct 16, 2014, 10:26 AM
Daeatria only sometimes shows off her talent in combat in such big group events. And not because I suck at builds - it is because of some serious IC reasons about her fighting style (as some who traveled with her would likely know). So if you have a social-related role that Bass would love for her, I am open, if my schedule is at the time. :-)
Sincerely,
Arya
Sincerely,
Arya
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Ogre Time Yay on Oct 16, 2014, 11:16 AM
Post by: Ogre Time Yay on Oct 16, 2014, 11:16 AM
Hydaro might want to sign up as team owner, mostly to test his students at the Academy. Would also help with lessons, if his students lose in PvP he'd get a better understanding of what he would need to teach them.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 16, 2014, 11:32 AM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 16, 2014, 11:32 AM
I'd also be down for some Team White Cloak action as Geno (lvl 14 Fighter).
Just so you know, if your two teams get pitted against one another you'd leave the other short handed. Might want to make sure these two teams have 3 players, just in case!
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 11:36 AM
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 11:36 AM
Yeah... The White Cloak team would have a few who could sub in for Geno.
More likely I would only enter one PC so it'd be one or the other.
Oni
More likely I would only enter one PC so it'd be one or the other.
Oni
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 16, 2014, 12:28 PM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 16, 2014, 12:28 PM
I'd also be down for some Team White Cloak action as Geno (lvl 14 Fighter).
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 16, 2014, 12:45 PM
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 16, 2014, 12:45 PM
I think if you're already participating with one character, you shouldn't be able to participate with another? It seems to make the most sense in encouraging diversity of players.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 12:48 PM
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 12:48 PM
That and wouldn't Nikolai and Dominique both count as "warrior" types? Unless there were restrictions like "you can only cast spells" or stuff like that.
Dom would count as a "caster" class being a Cleric.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 12:55 PM
Post by: onivel on Oct 16, 2014, 12:55 PM
That's really up to the creator of the event. He is speaking of a lack of participants which is why I offered up both options. I wasn't really going to participate to start with as these sort of things usually aren't my forte. I am generally horrible in PvP. I simply don't build PCs for it.
But for my own sake, as I said earlier, I would most likely limit myself to one or the other even if such rules were not implemented.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Valimar Dragonbane on Oct 16, 2014, 01:07 PM
Post by: Valimar Dragonbane on Oct 16, 2014, 01:07 PM
After some consideration, I'll toss Galas in on this. I think he can get behind some fortune and glory. He's also relatively low (currently level 10, may be 11 when this starts).
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: ClockworkMayhem on Oct 16, 2014, 02:05 PM
Post by: ClockworkMayhem on Oct 16, 2014, 02:05 PM
Put Mouse down for team Peppyr! Not the greatest at PVP, but I'll give it a shot. <3
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 16, 2014, 02:54 PM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 16, 2014, 02:54 PM
But for my own sake, as I said earlier, I would most likely limit myself to one or the other even if such rules were not implemented.
>Plays a cleric
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Edge on Oct 16, 2014, 03:07 PM
Post by: Edge on Oct 16, 2014, 03:07 PM
But for my own sake, as I said earlier, I would most likely limit myself to one or the other even if such rules were not implemented.
>Plays a cleric
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: FaeFae on Oct 16, 2014, 03:13 PM
Post by: FaeFae on Oct 16, 2014, 03:13 PM
I will sign up with my level 11 corpse-to-be. Put me on whichever team you hate. 
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 16, 2014, 03:18 PM
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 16, 2014, 03:18 PM
From what I understood of the original post, it'll function like a Fantasy Draft where Owners choose between the combatants to form the teams? I may have misunderstood.
EDIT: Seems so! "Initial creation of the league will involve a draft period, where team owners will pick from a pool of players."
That's actually pretty neat
EDIT: Seems so! "Initial creation of the league will involve a draft period, where team owners will pick from a pool of players."
That's actually pretty neat
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 16, 2014, 09:23 PM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 16, 2014, 09:23 PM
Your comment here seems to imply you believe that simply being a cleric is enough to have an auto-win for combat. You would be very incorrect.
"Initial creation of the league will involve a draft period, where team owners will pick from a pool of players."
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Edge on Oct 16, 2014, 10:18 PM
Post by: Edge on Oct 16, 2014, 10:18 PM
Man. I must just plain suck at picking spells then. My cleric is easily the worst off of my characters when it comes to combat, compared to my paladin and my AT.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 16, 2014, 10:56 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 16, 2014, 10:56 PM
Clerics can press two buttons and have more AB and damage than an equal level fighter.
They aren't as strong magic wise as a wizard, but they can out heal any magic damage spam a wizard can toss at them.
But none of that matters, really. If you're built for pvp, you'll have an advantage in these sorts of things. If you're built for dungeons, you'll have a disadvantage. Those are just givens. Doesn't matter, let's arepee.
They aren't as strong magic wise as a wizard, but they can out heal any magic damage spam a wizard can toss at them.
But none of that matters, really. If you're built for pvp, you'll have an advantage in these sorts of things. If you're built for dungeons, you'll have a disadvantage. Those are just givens. Doesn't matter, let's arepee.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Arya on Oct 17, 2014, 12:49 AM
Post by: Arya on Oct 17, 2014, 12:49 AM
Mmmm, arepeez.
<.<
~Arya
<.<
~Arya
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 17, 2014, 06:44 AM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 17, 2014, 06:44 AM
They aren't as strong magic wise as a wizard, but they can out heal any magic damage spam a wizard can toss at them.
But none of that matters, really. If you're built for pvp, you'll have an advantage in these sorts of things. If you're built for dungeons, you'll have a disadvantage. Those are just givens. Doesn't matter, let's arepee.
There are ways to incapacitate or otherwise make clerics completely useless; that said, at least they have melee to fall back on.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: on Oct 17, 2014, 07:28 AM
Post by: on Oct 17, 2014, 07:28 AM
Sophia would disagree, but eh. Depends on the cleric. We up for getting this thing on the road or what?
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 17, 2014, 07:42 AM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 17, 2014, 07:42 AM
She'd be surprised if she fought him again, and still 4 levels higher.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Ogre Time Yay on Oct 17, 2014, 08:39 AM
Post by: Ogre Time Yay on Oct 17, 2014, 08:39 AM
Might have to back Hydaro out of this, it doesn't look like there are enough players that are a part of the White Cloak thing that would be willing to do the arena thing as it would fall outside of many of the current members character personalities (from what it seems like so far, at least).
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: on Oct 17, 2014, 08:42 AM
Post by: on Oct 17, 2014, 08:42 AM
Yes, she was, still worthy fight. And that's a shame Hyde, you've been fun in that sort of RP before. But you're moving away from it and I respect that.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 17, 2014, 12:15 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 17, 2014, 12:15 PM
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Deleted on Oct 17, 2014, 12:17 PM
Post by: Deleted on Oct 17, 2014, 12:17 PM
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 17, 2014, 01:53 PM
Post by: onivel on Oct 17, 2014, 01:53 PM
Case in point.. I have 2 PCs involved with the White Cloaks... Simkin and Geno. Geno is all over it, hell he fights with his brothers "just because". Simkin would prefer not to, seeing practice sparring as a necessary evil and causing actual harm to someone as an act for the greater good.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 17, 2014, 03:15 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 17, 2014, 03:15 PM
I doubt these will be fights to the death. I see it as more as just something for PCs to get together and do.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 19, 2014, 11:19 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 19, 2014, 11:19 PM
One thing I'd propose, if these are to be mechanical fights, would be a limit or ban on certain well-known types of cheese. House rules, if you will, in the interests of making the fights more fighty and less 'who presses the win button first.' Some proposed guidelines (which I know shaft rogues a bit):
Don't spam HIPS. It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against. Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown. Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight. They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against. Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith. It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena. A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity. It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness. It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything. Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level. Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll. 'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.
Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.
Don't spam HIPS. It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against. Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown. Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight. They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against. Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith. It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena. A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity. It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness. It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything. Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level. Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll. 'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.
Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 19, 2014, 11:29 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 19, 2014, 11:29 PM
If you're using Knockdown more than one attempt per round(your first roll), you're doing it wrong.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 19, 2014, 11:34 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 19, 2014, 11:34 PM
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Edge on Oct 20, 2014, 06:25 AM
Post by: Edge on Oct 20, 2014, 06:25 AM
I'm not sure that works, as using KD on an already-down opponent doesn't increase the duration. I suppose it's a good way to make sure the first roll once they get up is a KD attempt though.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 20, 2014, 07:51 AM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 20, 2014, 07:51 AM
Red Mage used to DM a PvP server (where I was brought over from) so he is familiar with all forms of PvP cheese.
Trylo also missed spamming disarm...because people actually take that, y'know?
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 07:56 AM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 07:56 AM
Nah, it's still not good. If you use knockdown on your first attack per round(or last if you're hasted), you'll keep them knocked down on cooldown. Using it more than once per round is just wasting potential dps.
A level 16 fighter may have 30 AB unbuffed. A level 16 opponent may have 42 AC unbuffed but no discipline. If the level 16 fighter is using knockdown every attack per round, they are giving up one attack per round for free when they could at least be rolling to do damage.
30/25/20/15 against 42 becomes
26/21/16/11 if you're spamming.
This problem gets worse when you consider expertise is really common. The only benefit to using knockdown on maybe the second attack per round too is AB/AC are really inflated on the server while discipline can be impossible to match. Meaning if you don't chase AB inflation with AC stacking, you'll never resist a knockdown roll passed level 12, likely.
TLDR; At mid to high levels, if you can actually hit someone passed their AC here, you're pretty much guaranteed to beat their discipline.
A level 16 fighter may have 30 AB unbuffed. A level 16 opponent may have 42 AC unbuffed but no discipline. If the level 16 fighter is using knockdown every attack per round, they are giving up one attack per round for free when they could at least be rolling to do damage.
30/25/20/15 against 42 becomes
26/21/16/11 if you're spamming.
This problem gets worse when you consider expertise is really common. The only benefit to using knockdown on maybe the second attack per round too is AB/AC are really inflated on the server while discipline can be impossible to match. Meaning if you don't chase AB inflation with AC stacking, you'll never resist a knockdown roll passed level 12, likely.
TLDR; At mid to high levels, if you can actually hit someone passed their AC here, you're pretty much guaranteed to beat their discipline.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: SOC_Tessa on Oct 20, 2014, 10:58 AM
Post by: SOC_Tessa on Oct 20, 2014, 10:58 AM
What if you have Improved Knockdown? Doesn't that effectively negate the -4 penalty and thus cause any potential loss in damage while spamming it to be a wash?
The discipline issue isn't server specific. It was a poorly handled way to handle combat maneuvers and I swear BioWare only implemented it the vanilla design so that fighter types had somewhere to stick their class skill points. I agree that past a certain point, it just doesn't keep up and you are better off relying on AC (and if your AC is higher than your Discipline, which it most certainly is, when you get hit you'll likely fail that check anyway). I always wondered why the itemization on caster items seem to uncommonly carry spellcraft modifiers (belts and robes), but very little of the tank type items offer discipline without it being an exclusive feature of the item. I'm not saying it should be easy to stack up, but it should at least keep up somewhat reasonably well with the AB/AC levels.
The discipline issue isn't server specific. It was a poorly handled way to handle combat maneuvers and I swear BioWare only implemented it the vanilla design so that fighter types had somewhere to stick their class skill points. I agree that past a certain point, it just doesn't keep up and you are better off relying on AC (and if your AC is higher than your Discipline, which it most certainly is, when you get hit you'll likely fail that check anyway). I always wondered why the itemization on caster items seem to uncommonly carry spellcraft modifiers (belts and robes), but very little of the tank type items offer discipline without it being an exclusive feature of the item. I'm not saying it should be easy to stack up, but it should at least keep up somewhat reasonably well with the AB/AC levels.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Deleted on Oct 20, 2014, 11:39 AM
Post by: Deleted on Oct 20, 2014, 11:39 AM
Don't spam HIPS. It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against. Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown. Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight. They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against. Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith. It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena. A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity. It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness. It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything. Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level. Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll. 'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.
Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.
Rather than all this, just ban scrolls and wands/rods/items with spells.
I am so tired of people calling HiPS and Knockdown cheesy, instead of being legitimate tactics.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 11:41 AM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 11:41 AM
Improved Knockdown only removes body size advantage against knockdown. All playable races are the same size (ie: a Halfling doesn't need improved knockdown to knockdown a human without penalty). A Halfling and a human both with improved knockdown would roll the same against a Hill Giant, though where they would be immune to vanilla knockdown.
The suggestion was for spamming the ability, not using it. The server doesn't penalize using it like most other servers.
The suggestion was for spamming the ability, not using it. The server doesn't penalize using it like most other servers.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 12:19 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 12:19 PM
Oct 20, 2014 11:39:34 GMT -5 @belladonna said:
Don't spam HIPS. It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against. Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown. Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight. They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against. Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith. It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena. A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity. It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness. It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything. Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level. Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll. 'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.
Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.
Rather than all this, just ban scrolls and wands/rods/items with spells.
I am so tired of people calling HiPS and Knockdown cheesy, instead of being legitimate tactics.
Well, that depends. HiPS is bad is you're doing it multiple times per round since spot/listen checks are only rolled once per round. I'm not sure there are enough Spot/Listen items to match the Hide/MS items though, so it probably doesn't matter.
I've seen this style of match run extremely well in the past. I'll show you what they used:
CHALLENGES
Fights are started by one fighter challenging another. Standard terms are assumed unless the fighters agree on something else.
STANDARD CHALLENGE TERMS
- Three magics only (or potions, wand charge, item spell etc)
- Magics cast on yourself only; buff/weapon/defense/healing/dmg shields etc
- No summons (or familiars, animal companions)
- No 9th circle spells (mostly for Shapechange)
- Player can use one RP Pause per match, use it wisely and strategically (see below)
- Fight til RP Yield or Death (Fray does provide raising)
Special considerations that count as one spell
- Bards. Bard Song
- Monks. Empty Body and Wholeness of Body
- Shifters. Shape change
BEGINNING FIGHTS
- Fights being with Darkness spell cast from a scroll (3 rounds)
- Spend the darkness time preparing, hiding, casting spells etc. (keeps people guessing)
- Fight begins once the darkness lifts
- Don't forget to hostile your opponent
ENDING FIGHTS
- Death is not usually the desired outcome (death if often RP'd as KO)
- If a character is Near Death and withdrawing let them go
- RP Yields should be respected (see below in Roleplaying Fights)
ROLEPLAYING FIGHTS
Easier said than done in most cases, but RP is encouraged before, after, and during fights. Keep things interesting. Use talk binds and voice emotes. If you're locked in a hack and slash, emote or talk smack; its meant to be a seedy affair. Part of the purpose of The Fray is to see if its possible to inject RP into and around PvP situations, and still keep things fun and flowing. We're going to experiment with using binds to help facilitate some RP. Help us figure it how best to do it!
Bind: "// OOC:Yield!"
Indicates submission, yielder forfeits match. Both combatants must cease attacks immediately. Yielder then must RP appropriately allowing victor his due. Hits may still land unintentionally after message so it may not always work out.
ex. *grunts dropping to one knee after the last mighty blow drove him down* Enough! I yield... this fight is yours.
Alternately combatants can agree to only fight to a particular wounded level (i.e. Badly Wounded or Near Death) prior to match, with loser emoting defeat.
Bind: "// OOC:RP Pause!"
Each combatant gets one RP Pause during match, to be used at discretion. Are meant to be used strategically. Once signaled, opponents must cease attack and back off to allow for RP message before fighting commences.
ex. *absorbs the impact of the strike rolling some distance away, smirks and rises dusting himself off* Good hit. I expect you think you have this in the bag. I beg to differ. *quickly quaffs his last potion*
ex. *sidesteps and ends up nearby breathing heavy* That all you got? Better say your prayers Orc. You're about to meet your god. *bull rushes back in*
Pauser initiates combat again by using spell/potion/item (at which point opponent may attack), or by emoting hostilities (must emote before clicking to attack to give opponent chance to ready as well).
DIRTY TRICKS
Dirty tricks can and should be used. These may or may not be noticed by Fray Overseers, or the gathered crowd and will be RP'd as seen fit. Could be overlooked, result in match forfeit, or even provoke hostility, be prepared. Typically if you see someone "cheating" and it could logically be hidden send them a tell and ask for opposing roll so others are not necessarily alerted.
SPICING THINGS UP
Fray Overseers may at any time intervene as they see fit to keep things entertaining. This may mean lobbing in a Choking Powder or Black Rock [dispel item], or simply calling for a break in the action for the fighters to catch their breaths and adjust strategy.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 20, 2014, 12:19 PM
Post by: onivel on Oct 20, 2014, 12:19 PM
The suggestion was for spamming the ability, not using it. The server doesn't penalize using it like most other servers.
Also I thought the size category wasn't in place to determine if you hit... it was given as a bonus or penalty to resist on the discipline roll ( ie bigger size opponents get bonus to resist and smaller get penalty to resist.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: SOC_Tessa on Oct 20, 2014, 01:39 PM
Post by: SOC_Tessa on Oct 20, 2014, 01:39 PM
Ah yes, I did cross my wires of thought. It is indeed a flat -4 on the attack roll and the size category is purely to determine how hard it is to resist via a discipline check (+-4 per difference in size, and unable to knock down opponents more than one size category above you). Improved bumps up what you can knock down and makes it easier to knock down what you already could. Didn't mean to derail things with spread of misinformation, carry on.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 01:56 PM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 01:56 PM
Better yet why don't we just make it a popularity contest; two characters enter, then the audience votes and the loser gets laughed at on the forums whilst the winner gets the Dubya.
I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right? So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28. It makes the most canonical sense, right?
/sarcasm
These aren't fights to the death, they are to the knockout. The last team with a member standing gets the win. As far as Trylo's restrictions are concerned, that's where my suggestion which depends on the team to be balanced. 2 level 20's against 2 level 12's; well the team with the 20's will be given handicaps to make it more even and entertaining. There's no need for judges; the team owners will work with Bass to determine rulings as is fair. If a team owner wants a promoter or financier then they're welcome to have such.
Once the team owners posted in Original post have messaged me with their team names, I'll start a new thread for the draft.
I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right? So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28. It makes the most canonical sense, right?
/sarcasm
These aren't fights to the death, they are to the knockout. The last team with a member standing gets the win. As far as Trylo's restrictions are concerned, that's where my suggestion which depends on the team to be balanced. 2 level 20's against 2 level 12's; well the team with the 20's will be given handicaps to make it more even and entertaining. There's no need for judges; the team owners will work with Bass to determine rulings as is fair. If a team owner wants a promoter or financier then they're welcome to have such.
Once the team owners posted in Original post have messaged me with their team names, I'll start a new thread for the draft.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 02:16 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 02:16 PM
I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right? So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28. It makes the most canonical sense, right?
/sarcasm
I know this may blow you away, but my post was not malicious in any way whatsoever. Sorry for posting something I've seen work in the past. Nothing you said even remotely applies to what I said either. Their method was simply to add a bit more flavour into PvP situations (they are still mechanical PvP battles), which clearly you're not interested in, which is also fine. Personally, if I can steal from somewhere that has done something with success in the past, then I'll do it.
There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:
"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."
A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 02:24 PM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 02:24 PM
I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right? So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28. It makes the most canonical sense, right?
/sarcasm
There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:
"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."
A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 20, 2014, 02:27 PM
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 20, 2014, 02:27 PM
How can we have team names when we haven't chosen the teams? Can we make a name after?
I can't call it Voss and the Vossettes, if I didn't draft Voss
(But that would still be funny)
I can't call it Voss and the Vossettes, if I didn't draft Voss
(But that would still be funny)
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 02:29 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 02:29 PM
There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:
"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."
A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.
Then I apologize to jumping to a conclusions as I didn't see anyone else discussing anything similar in between that post and your last one so I thought you were referring to mine.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 02:29 PM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 02:29 PM
Well, generally a team is a brand all it's own; since you could trade Voss for a more powerful combatant, etc. For instance, the Dallas Cowboys aren't the Dallas Troy Aikmen, or the Dallas Emmit Smiths. The team doesn't and likely shouldn't focus on your players.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 20, 2014, 02:30 PM
Post by: bknuckles on Oct 20, 2014, 02:30 PM
That makes sense. Okay, I'll think of a team name!
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Remmy on Oct 20, 2014, 02:56 PM
Post by: Remmy on Oct 20, 2014, 02:56 PM
Oct 20, 2014 11:39:34 GMT -5 @belladonna said:
No. No. No.Rather than all this, just ban scrolls and wands/rods/items with spells.
I am so tired of people calling HiPS and Knockdown cheesy, instead of being legitimate tactics.
HiPS allows for being within 10 feet of a shadow (not your own) to count as one of these modifiers to start the process, but the Shadowdancer is just using the shadows to -start- the hiding process, she isn't actually hiding IN the shadow. She isn't Peter Pan's shadow. She has physical form and can still be harmed if something damages her square. NWN cannot easily replicate this, and mechanically the implementation of HiPS can be abused in a variety of other ways. Again, going back to rules the person to be hiding would have to disengage from combat, flee from it (likely provoking an attack of opportunity) and then hide, which is a move action. NWN seems to allow you to click the button even if you are striking or being struck and then resume attacking a moment later. If you were the target of a person and you click hide their combat just shuts off entirely and they become flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attacks until they click on you again. And I believe they can begin hiding when they are being targeted by a hostile spell, canceling it and potentially wasting the spell in progress (I could be -totally- wrong on that, so if I am please correct me, someone). This is one of the ways that a person with HiPS can cheese the system, constantly dipping in for a moment to render their target flat-footed and sneak attack them to death, if they have them, which frankly most who take Shadowdancer do.
Further NWN has armed Shadowdancers with this amazing ability without putting in any of the truly effective countermeasures that would negate it. You cannot cast daylight on an object and plant it in an arena and suddenly render the shadowdancer unable to use that ability, nor other light spells, unless you RP it and the shadowdancer on the other end actually pays attention and goes along with it. If they do then bless their heart... but I have seen countless shadowdancer players since the PrC was added who would not give two shits about it and would keep going. Even if you have massive spot the ability to hide on a whim beats it, as the spot check is only once per round, and a quick SD will spring their next attack before then.
tl;dr: Hide in plain sight itself is not cheesy in of itself but has been used in a cheesy manner for years and NWN has not effectively provided any of the legitimate counters to it, nor altered spot to do so, even if you could pump it as high as a rogue can get their skill.
Note: I like rogues, and I am not calling for any changes to be made for shadowdancers. They are a wonderful class and in a lot of cases the RP provided by them has been interesting. I am just pointing out that in a strictly PvP setting they can be abused greatly. Also those wands/rods/items/scrolls are some of the ways to try and beat a shadowdancer, or level the playing field with many caster classes. They are in the same boat as HiPS, not cheesy themselves, but can potentially be used for such.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 20, 2014, 03:10 PM
Post by: onivel on Oct 20, 2014, 03:10 PM
There is this wonderful spell called Glitterdust that F's over HiPSers very nicely. Best thing is you don't need to be a caster for it as there is an easily accessible item IG that can be used by anyone for the effect.
Oni - Player of a squishy HiPSer
Oni - Player of a squishy HiPSer
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 20, 2014, 03:37 PM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Oct 20, 2014, 03:37 PM
There's also scripts in play that give you a massive Hide penalty if you hide within 1-2 rounds (can't remember) after coming out of stealth, so abusing it is much more difficult.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 03:41 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 03:41 PM
I have three reasons for proposing rules. I don't especially care what rules the League has or doesn't have (as I will not be participating beyond Aelie being a potential supporter/announcer) but I did want to acknowledge three factors of good gladiatorial matches.
1) X should not be required ONLY because it's the only way to counter Y. Glitterdust, for instance. If it's the only possible counter to HiPS spam then it becomes mandatory when facing someone with HiPS but is otherwise pretty useless in all circumstances (except for blinding people with single-digit Will saves).
2) If you're making it a spectator event, the fight should be fun to watch. This is my only complaint with Darkness, really - It makes the fight difficult to spectate because even with Ultravision everything is black.
3) Blatant cheese should be ruled against unless everyone can do it. Word of Faith fits here. An AoE Blind with no save auto-wins a fight, especially if spammed, but only clerics can do it. If you're fighting a team with a cleric using this tactic and you don't have one yourself, you're almost guaranteed to lose. That's just no fun.
1) X should not be required ONLY because it's the only way to counter Y. Glitterdust, for instance. If it's the only possible counter to HiPS spam then it becomes mandatory when facing someone with HiPS but is otherwise pretty useless in all circumstances (except for blinding people with single-digit Will saves).
2) If you're making it a spectator event, the fight should be fun to watch. This is my only complaint with Darkness, really - It makes the fight difficult to spectate because even with Ultravision everything is black.
3) Blatant cheese should be ruled against unless everyone can do it. Word of Faith fits here. An AoE Blind with no save auto-wins a fight, especially if spammed, but only clerics can do it. If you're fighting a team with a cleric using this tactic and you don't have one yourself, you're almost guaranteed to lose. That's just no fun.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 03:41 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 03:41 PM
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 03:57 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 03:57 PM
Hide with HiPS.
Move in. Listen/spot check fails, player is hidden.
Swing first flurry.
HiPS.
Move in. No check for the rest of the round/other two flurries.
By round 2 you'll probably be hooped as you'll fail the next check.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Deleted on Oct 20, 2014, 04:08 PM
Post by: Deleted on Oct 20, 2014, 04:08 PM
Fine. Ban HiPS. But then also ban healing potions/kits, cure spells, knockdown (as already mentioned), any auto-hit spells (IGMS), all displacement spells, all summon spells, etc etc etc. Because each of these requires limited methods to counter/avoid them. Fair is fair, after all.
/sarcasm
Seriously, guys, where do you draw the line?
/sarcasm
Seriously, guys, where do you draw the line?
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 04:18 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 04:18 PM
Ban fighting. It's the only way. Jeez, I regret bringing up the subject of rules at all.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 04:36 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 04:36 PM
The suggestion was for spamming the ability, not using it. The server doesn't penalize using it like most other servers.
Also I thought the size category wasn't in place to determine if you hit... it was given as a bonus or penalty to resist on the discipline roll ( ie bigger size opponents get bonus to resist and smaller get penalty to resist.
And yeah, the hide penalty really means nothing even with glitterdust. You can have 0 hide afterward and still use HiPS effectively against someone with 20 spot if the person using it knows how to use it.
There should just be some common courtesy rules, in my opinion. We cannot balance PvP on this server at all. It's not a PvP server and there are too many things that haven't been altered or are auto-win buttons or templates. There just needs to be a way to make the RP take the center stage instead of builds/ tactics/ exploits.
-Edit- And yes, HiPS can waste a spell per day if it's a targetable spell. Only ground-targetable spells are reliable against them(gust of wind, greater thunderclap, icestorms)
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: ClockworkMayhem on Oct 20, 2014, 05:00 PM
Post by: ClockworkMayhem on Oct 20, 2014, 05:00 PM
Honestly, the best counter to HiPS is a high spot/listen. Glitterdust isn't exactly a hard counter to HiPS if the character in question has a really good H/MS; at least not in the experiences I've had, but then, the only ones that have tested this against Mouse cast it from the music box or the scroll - does caster level matter on this? I know some spells have been altered from the spell descriptions, slightly (at least, I've been told so), and not all the descriptions have been changed to reflect it. Is Glitterdust one of these?
Another good one, as RM mentioned, are ground-targetable AoE spells, but they should be picked carefully, as some are definitely better than others.
Another good one, as RM mentioned, are ground-targetable AoE spells, but they should be picked carefully, as some are definitely better than others.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 05:15 PM
Post by: The Red Mage on Oct 20, 2014, 05:15 PM
Glitterdust doesn't scale, no. The DC is only for blind. It does the -50 to hide automatically.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 05:21 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Oct 20, 2014, 05:21 PM
A common issue with Spot/Listen vs. Hide/MS is that Hide/MS gear tends to be both more plentiful and carry higher bonuses than Spot/Listen gear, meaning that on a high-magic high-gear server like CD it's very easy for Hide/MS to completely run away from what Spot/Listen can realistically detect. It's what makes Glitterdust so important.
Anyway, this is probably best moved to a separate thread. This is getting off-topic, and I apologize for that.
Anyway, this is probably best moved to a separate thread. This is getting off-topic, and I apologize for that.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 05:45 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 05:45 PM
Oct 20, 2014 16:08:05 GMT -5 @belladonna said:
Fine. Ban HiPS. But then also ban healing potions/kits, cure spells, knockdown (as already mentioned), any auto-hit spells (IGMS), all displacement spells, all summon spells, etc etc etc. Because each of these requires limited methods to counter/avoid them. Fair is fair, after all./sarcasm
Seriously, guys, where do you draw the line?
No one said to ban it, but being aware of how it operates mechanically is important if you want to make an informed decision on it either way. My point was that you better make flurry2 and flurry3 of that first round count because you could be in trouble afterwards.
Banning it because you heard it was bad is certainly not the answer (which is/was done in countless places), nor is allowing a free for all (CD took the middle ground with the skill mods on quick use; which, from a scripting sense, is the best work-around to the hard coded nature of the ability).
In the end it's all Dom's decision on how it goes.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: Valimar Dragonbane on Oct 20, 2014, 05:46 PM
Post by: Valimar Dragonbane on Oct 20, 2014, 05:46 PM
Getting back on topic, is the intent to have the owners pick the combatants in game, or just via the thread?
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 05:51 PM
Post by: The Nameless Bard on Oct 20, 2014, 05:51 PM
You can probably add my Thayan Knight character to list (Danax Kallos, Fighter7), but he'll probably be the lowest level and a pure fighter, so maybe not much use. I can fill a spot on a team if that's all you need to compete though.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 07:10 PM
Post by: dom101 on Oct 20, 2014, 07:10 PM
Plan on doing a draft style start for the league. Then trades can be made or w/e where team owners can discuss / haggle / promise favors to other team owners to situate the best team they think they can manage.
We'll do it on the forums, since I doubt we'll get these specific 15 people together at any given time.
Once I have names for all the teams, we'll get that started.
Title: Gladiator League
Post by: onivel on Oct 21, 2014, 09:13 AM
Post by: onivel on Oct 21, 2014, 09:13 AM
I notice you have Nikki and Geno listed. I'm fine to play one or the other. I guess whichever gets picked first depending if they want a cleric or a wall.