Cormyr and the Dalelands

We have revised the rules for Paladin and Monk mutliclassing.

Please see the first post: Here.

In-game journals will be updated to reflect these changes with the next update.


We have tried to keep these new guidelines as simple and easy to understand as possible while still not violating the tone of the setting.  If you have any specific questions, do not hesitate to ask.

I presume the "No Paladin and Monk on same character" is provided an exception by the Yondalla/Hin Fist order listing?

I think in that one particular case, the paladin and monk levels should be able to "stack" with each other in terms of determining if they make up a majority of the character, as long as one is equal to at least half of the other.

10 paladin/10 monk would be legit.

7 paladin/4 monk/9 cleric would be legit

8 paladin/10 hospitaler/2 monk would not be legit.

The cheesiest level 30 thing I can think of using the above restriction is something like 9/10 monk, 5/6 paladin, 15 cleric. Some power potential there, but 15 CR is an easy dispel. And if they've otherwise put up with a pretty awful class combination long enough to get to level 30, I think they deserve it.

This is a little more complicated than the new rule, but it's also a very, very situational Order/class combination. The other option is to require that they keep monk and paladin equal.. and 10 paladin/10 monk (or even 15/15 at epic) should not be inflicted upon anyone.

I do have a question:  What if someone is telling a story in which a fighter, or other class, is working towards being a paladin?  Say the hypothetical fighter is level 12; he would not be allowed to take paladin levels, as he would end up being fighter 12/paladin 1 for a decent time, and would only balance out levels at 24th character level.  Would something such as this be allowed?  How would this be handled?

It would probably require some kind of application first and foremost, and be handled from that point on on a case-by-case basis. There's also the option of a rebuild to bring the character into line with the rules, by exchanging most or all of their Fighter levels for Paladin levels (somewhat similar to what Kestal went through, losing her Fighter/Sorc/Blackguard build for a pure Paladin one).

I'd be inclined to agree with Edge.

Also, regarding my question regarding the one specific order, forget what I said about the "Half of other class level" BS. For that one particular case, just let the monk and paladin levels stack together for purposes of determining requirements. There's not really anything particularly over the top powerful that can come out of such.

16-19 monk, 1-4 paladin? Whatever.
14-20 paladin, 1-6 monk? Whatever.
Some combination of paladin + monk that's >= 10 + 9-10 cleric? Whatever.

So one could apply for gaining paladin levels without an instant rebuild sort of like the unlockable prestige class process?

Well like I said, it'd need to be discussed on a case-by-case basis more likely than not. Characters rebuilding into Paladins (or Monks, for that matter) is far from a common occurrence.

That's what I assumed happened when people applied for the locked prestige classes, so I think we're on the same page.

But just to make sure, the order of events would be:
Request Permission to level in paladin -> Discussion of this particular case between admins, player and admins possibly too -> Decision is made -> level into paladin, or don't based on the decision.

Throwing in my 2 cents for clarity's sake here, tenor:

I'm pretty sure that this request would need to be made -after- the character has been created and rped in the game world for a while (at least a few levels) instead of putting the application in at character creation because becoming a paladin when you started out as something else seems a lot like falling as a paladin to me. If you create a character with this specific goal in mind for them, it's sort of like forcing rp and hedging your character's interactions and reactions such that you consciously guide your character to an outcome that would be more fulfilling and poignant for everyone if it came about as a natural consequence of unplanned interactions in the game world.

In short: if you create a character and decide before that character has ever interacted with the game world or anyone in it in any way that said character is going to 'become a paladin' it -could- seem to the admins that you're simply making a character with the express intent to bypass this new rule on multiclassing. However, if you have no intention for such upon character creation and allow interactions in the game world to influence the character - potentially guiding them to -or- away from that path - I imagine that would be seen as less subversive and more an earnest attempt at establishing a unique story with the character that is driven by roleplay and interaction within the world rather than conceived solely within your own mind.

Recent events/interactions my character has been involved in have led me to feel that creating a character on CD with the express intent to have them move into or out of one of the divine-based classes (cleric, monk, paladin, blackguard, druid, etc) before they've ever even interacted on the server tends to be viewed as a nonstarter for rp and the involvement of others with the development of your character. Whereas when these events transpire as a direct result of your rp and interaction with others:

EX: paladin spends a lot of time around a half-fiend, finds said half-fiend to be unexpectedly not-so evil -> paladin begins to question his own views on good/evil and morality and doesn't realize the half-fiend is putting on an act to cause him to question himself -> paladin's doubt diminishes his faith, his god grows displeased causing paladin to doubt even more -> paladin falls and has no one to turn to but half-fiend -> half-fiend encourages paladin to become a blackguard to evil deity -> ex-paladin becomes new blackguard

Instead of looking like someone is just mechanically interested in gaining the benefits of paladin without abiding the class restrictions (not saying that's your intent, merely commenting on the ease of making this assumption), the above scenario shows roleplay with other characters and/or npcs along the way which shows the staff you're interested in the story aspect of things - not just your own story but also the part you can play in the stories of others.

Again, just my opinion here.

This was in reference to characters which had already existed for some time in the game world, as otherwise, it would be a matter of about 3 days of hunting to equal out paladin and other levels.  

The situation which you surmise to be acceptable was exactly the kind of situation of which I was speaking, so I think...  everyone's on the same page.

Though to be fair:  All half-fiends are evil, and any paladin in need of a reminder should seek out clerical aid immediately.

Nope. Risen fiends are thing. Are they the norm? Of course not. But they happen.

To be more blunt - You are wrong.

You're welcome to have characters think so ICly, but, as a matter of things which can and have happened in the game, you're wrong.

+2 to what Fire Wraith said.

~Arya

Playing a half fiend for me has been a very fine line.  First, I differ from the peacocking loud mouths and would rather do something far more subtle.  Is it evil?  Who is to say, they haven't done much evil yet, and the only dastardly thing was offer mercy.  Fall in love, and out of love, and live a very sedentary normal life.  Maybe it's a neat spin?

To be quite blunt:  Special Snowflakes aside, half-fiends are evil unless the requisite alignment/subtype changing rituals for outsiders have been waived here.

And if they have, that should be posted, as otherwise, there is no way to change your alignment as an outsider (unless we're assuming -always evil- PCs lead a life of good pre-creation so that they don't have to work through a life's-worth of evil deeds).

Alternatively, maybe we really don't care about the limits of the setting, so long as our stories are compelling to someone.  But, if we're going to ignore some of the rules, where do we draw the line?


It would be quite nice to have a listing of rules that have been altered/eliminated/changed to fit the admins' view of the server.  Because, otherwise, those of us that play by the rules, come out looking like we're wrong all the time (we very might well be as the rules seem to not be hard and fast).

To be blunt.

You are wrong here.

Half-planars start at specific alignments, but that can change.  Half-fiends can better themselves, and rise up, Half-celestials can fall to darkness.  This is not unique to CD.

Players like you, Tenor, are the reason so many people among the D&D and PF playerbase hate the Alignment grid. Treating alignment like a chain-locked straightjacket that you refuse to bend against strangles story opportunities and limits the abilities of GMs and players alike to tell a tale.

I'll be blunt. I've never heard of the rituals you so desperately are clinging to here before. Ever. Every single result of alignment change I've ever seen among half-outsider AND FULL OUTSIDERS has been due to in-character behaviors. D&D and Pathfinder settings are FILLED with stories of fallen angels and, somewhat less prominently but in my mind far more memorable, risen fiends. Of the former of course we have the likes of Asmodeus, Malkizid, Trias, the entire original batch of erinyes, and so forth; of the latter we have Fall-From-Grace the LN Succubus and Fhjull Forked-Tongue the LN Cornugon from Planescape Torment, Arueshalae the CG Succubus from Pathfinder's Wrath of the Righteous campaign, and the ex-devil who metamorphosed into a celestial upon his rising (whose name sadly I cannot remember) from the Pathfinder novel The Redemption Engine by James Sutter. (This book also contains two fallen celestials, for that matter.)

NONE of those listed characters, good or evil alike, is listed as having their alignment altered by a ritual, magic item, curse, or other effect (with the possible exception of Fhjull, his situation is somewhat vague) - every single one of them changed because of their actions and behaviors and beliefs being altered through experiences, persuasion, or deceit.

If the makers of the games can't even be arsed to bother sticking with a so-called "rule" about how all planar and half-planar creatures are alignment-locked unless special magic or rituals or curses or items are used, likely because sticking to such an idiotic rule would hamstring so many potential stories before they even got started, we here at CD see no reason to do likewise. It's far more interesting to us, and to the majority of our playerbase, to allow planar and half-planar creatures the opportunity to struggle against their very intrinsic nature of the story turns them that way, to allow fiends and half-fiends to rise and celestials and half-celestials to fall, purely through the power of roleplay.

In short, once again, you are WRONG.

There are plenty of other examples, some of which have been listed, for why it is possible, albeit rare for full Outsiders to shift alignment, there are many other creatures that are listed as "always ," yet you can easily look about and find examples of creatures in adventure modules, city listings, and other sources that defy this rule. Those listings are for the average example of their kind. On C/D, and in D&D antagonists and protagonists are far from the normal, average examples of their races in many cases, and as such have greater flexibility even under D&D's rather archaic alignment grid, because ultimately all listings are just guidelines, not rules binding the hands of a DM.

Further Half-Outsiders, while again listed under those alignments, are usually part mortal, can be native to Prime worlds, and need to eat, sleep, and breathe as any mortal would, unlike most of their Outsider parents. Outsiders are inflexible save for the one in a million, while the essence of a mortal is free will and the ability to change if so desired. It is for this reason more than any others that Half-Fiends can rise, Half-Celestials can fall, and children of Law and Chaos can switch sides.

We're detracting from the original topic.  Paladins.  And monks and multiclassing.  Just thought I'd point that out.  Now, since I've never done a paladin, yet, because I find the Rp difficult, well I won't add to that.  However, I do play monks, and I can tell you that by itself the class can do a lot but it matters if you stick with it rather than go to other classes to receive benefits.

...You know, it is overly aggressive, snarky, pious people like you that makes it so hard for decent roleplayers to play on this server - and people of this nature who drives them away.  Not only do I see you you argue the rules that are clearly OPINIONS of yours (in the name of 'rules' or 'canon'), and refuse to take into account counter-examples in the lore, but you also condescend people who disagree with you.  And it is done aggressively, and with all attempts to shame the opposition and make them feel awful for having their stance, despite -their- argument support.  

All I have ever seen of you beyond this thread at this point, is passive-aggressive bullying.  I am not fond of bullies, and I am certainly not fond of bullies who rule-lawyer their way into having their way.  

~Arya

*slow clap*

Seconding arya strongly.

Furthermore, It's mindsets like yours, tenor, that gives lawful good the bad reputation it has among roleplayers. Too many people have run into stuckup, selfrighteous depictions of paladins and other lg characters and consider them the only way to play the alignment, and it makes rping lg a pain for those of us who understand there are other ways to portray such.

PMs sent to avoid derailing the thread any further.

*Whispers*

I like the update.

Thanks guys.

GET OUT OF HERE WITH YOUR MEASURED AND RESPECTFUL COMMENTARY!

My commentary measures two inches more respectfully than his does, just saying.

Back on topic: I think the mutliclassing changes are good and the new system is fair and provides an opportunity for a much more diverse range of rp from characters primarily monk-based or paladin-based. That said, I expect there -may- end up being a few combinations even in this system that need to be kept in check. We likely won't know these combinations until people start making characters with this new system and play around with it a bit.

I particularly like that divine champion or cleric levels count towards part of the majority. I may have missed it in the thread, but do things like Divine Seeker, Druid, Heirophant, Disciple of Meph, Divine Disciple, Doomguide, Heartwarder, Hospitaler, Silverstar of Selune, and Windwalker also count towards the majority (add in with paladin or monk levels) by virtue of being heavily divine-based classes or is it just specifically limited to a smaller list than all of these? Also, Blackguard as a PrC works a tad different than monk or paladin so I'm assuming it is exempt from the majority rule? Would it count towards your monk majority if you take a monk/blackguard build?

Sorry for all the questions. Just wanted to clarify things and get the thread a little back on topic.

I wouldn't think that Windwalker does, since Shaundakul is a chaotic deity and most of his clerics are likewise aligned.  That would be up to the powers-what-be.

My understanding was that divine prcs of your deity would count for paladins. Base classes would not.

Monk doesn't have secondary classes like that.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

For paladins, the following classes should apply:

Divine Champion: Counts for paladin levels in regards to smite, thus continues the class.
Divine Disciple: Continues paladin spell progression.
Hospitaler: Continues paladin spell, lay on hands, turning progression
Harper Priest: Continues paladin spell progression.

All of the others either have conflicting alignment requirements and/oror do not continue any abilities of the paladin or monk classes. However, I would suggest that thematically Divine Seeker is a good fit for at least monk if not both monk and paladin, from a thematic standpoint.