Cormyr and the Dalelands

I did a super fun dungeon dive earlier today at Deepgrave with a lvl 14 PC and two level 16 PCs.  I'll admit we didn't think to look on the forum first and we went right in, cleared out a few floors and then my PC was unfortunately locked out of the lowest level floor while the two higher level PCs could go in.  Needless to say, they couldn't survive without my PC, and it was precarious anyways to leave one PC alone to wait in an area where the respawn rate was pretty high... so we all retreated.

I would love to suggest one of the following to avoid this awkward situation again:

1) Have a warning sign marker that includes any level lock limits so players know ahead of time.  I suppose we could check the forum, but it's hard to tab out sometimes (especially on a mac) just to check a dungeon level.  An in game sign with OOC info would be super helpful.  In Deepgrave, there are already signs in the first room, so you'd just need to append the OOC info to it.

2) Remove the level 15 lock on Deepgrave or bump it to 20 or something.  It was challenging for our group of three, but it wasn't overwhelming.  We were having a blast until we couldn't try the lower level and had to split.

3) If there is a level limit in the middle of the dungeon, make an exit portal accessible for the lower level PCs who will need to leave the party. Don't make them wander back alone to find a place to teleport out.  It's awkward enough IC to do that, even worse OOC to see party members die trying to follow the rules.  If you fear abuse of the exit portal, maybe script it so it's only usable by certain levels.

Hope these suggestions are helpful.  Deepgrave is a great dungeon run, for those who haven't tried it.

There was/has been a lot of arguments both for and against against the level lock system, and a few people were abusing it to run lowbies through higher level dungeons. IE, a level 3-5 being set to invisibly follow a group that's tackling gnolls. This was a solution to the problem.

I think these are good suggestions. Most players have them all memorized by now, though it's easy enough to forget them now and again. I think Deepgrave is one of the few to have an internal level lock. Lady Wyvernspur's Crypt used to have two, but I'm not sure if it still does (One at the beginning and one before the boss.)

Not helpful, just agreeing that your ideas seem good. +1

~BR

I passed along a suggestion not too long ago that the level locks should be based upon the level of loot the dungeon is capable of dropping. I am openly not a fan of the level lock system and will go ahead and put a few my my ideas here instead of another thread.

1- The level lock system is currently set in such a way that it is rather difficult for people to want to challenge themselves by going to somewhere more dangerous. CD is a server where you do have to play smart and do have to find your own way of tackling every dungeon and most people have a different way of succeeding in these dungeons, presently, the level locks tend to be at a point where you cannot enter a dungeon until you're pretty much set for the challenges you will face inside. That can be a touch dull if it gets too easy.

2- Character levels are all over the place on CD. Lots of people have alts, and some of us prefer just to focus on one or two characters. Higher level characters will make friendships with lower levels and they want to go out and have fun together in these dungeons. The lock system a lot of the time ends up halting trips with wide level ranges that are purely meant for fun and becomes a thirty minute discussion of who can enter what dungeon and what would still provide a fun challenge. This just railroads RP and turns things into a mostly OOC discussion as you try to figure out where best to go. Nothing is more infuriating than getting to a dungeon and suddenly realizing one person is left out because of the locks.

3- With how CDs level system is designed, only the most 'non grindy' characters will reach their RP EXP requirement before their allotted monster EXP value. In the end it makes very little difference what the level gain is at level 12+ cause you will inevitably be hitting the monster exp before the RP requirement. The speed of level progression only will be influenced at lower levels.

4- We already cannot hold the loot we find if it is above our tier. So the loot issue is nonexistent.

5- I have talked to a rather large amount of the player base and conducted a small survey about ways to help improve CD. Of the fourteen people I asked, thirteen said that they felt the level lock system wasn't so much of a hindrance, but it felt like everyone was being punished because of the actions of a smaller group.

6- A lot of these levels are all over the place and it is a lot to memorize and tends to end up with someone stopping to pull up the list to figure out where a party can go. More uniformity would be a good thing.

With this in mind, I present two suggestions:

1- The locks could be based off of the loot obtained in the dungeon. If a dungeon drops T4, the limit would be 13 as that is when you can hold T4 loot. If it drops T5, the limit is 17. This gives characters a little more freedom at the higher.

2- apply level locks so that low level characters only cannot get inside. The RP EXP requirement sets the progression rate at a certain pace, and the main concern seems to be dragging people along so they can blast from level 3 to level 8-9 in a day with running all of the in game quests. Once you start having those larger RP EXP requirements, the monster EXP becomes easier and easier to hit in a day, even if soloing. So any dungeon that is capable of T4 loot cannot be entered by anyone level 10 and under, or something.

You're partially correct.  You can hold loot up to one tier higher than your current tier.  This really is problematic because we only allowed the level 12-15 group to hold T4s because of the off chance of finding one in the dungeons that are designed for those levels.  You should not be trying to have a full set of gear ready to go the moment you can equip it.  You're supposed to gain the gear during the levels which you can equip it.  Quite honestly, we are more inclined to instead remove the ability to hold a tier higher of gear than move the dungeon locks.

And don't even get me started with the giving away of gear/twinking of friends.  (A rant for another topic, I'm afraid.)

To reiterate, we had multiple players, including DMs that would run characters that were too low level (even as low as level 9/10/11) characters through near-epic and epic level dungeons.  This is why the locks were put into place in the first place.  We got tired of the repeated reminders, again even to those people who should know better or who have been on the server for years, about taking people to too-high level places.

We may make some changes... either a journal entry or sign post is a good idea... to clarify some things.

But as I have said before, what does it really matter if they get ran through a dungeon and their monster exp is completed on day one? They are still stuck waiting for the ticking clock that is RP EXP and would he hitting their monster exp cap in the first day anyways, it takes less and less time to hit that number as you grow in levels (until post level 25 when it slows down massively). We have people hitting level 8 a few hours after creation just by soloing already because they know this server and know how best to go about things.

On that note,has anyone ever tried explaining all of these limits to a new player and seeing their reaction? It is kind of off outting to new people alone, and cost us some old players already.

CD has more restrictions than any other server I have ever been on already by a long shot. MORE restrictions and systems to make sure players stay in line is not going to help things.

The alternative before was that we relied on people to not do things they weren't supposed to do, like run newbies through top tier dungeons and give them the loot (or the ridiculous amounts of coin). Do you know why we changed that system? Because it relied on people to guess what they could and couldn't do, or to read up on a bunch of things, and we decided it would be a lot easier to just automate it, meaning the game wouldn't let you do things you're not supposed to.

You're basically arguing against one of the core design tenets, that people aren't supposed to be geared to the hilt at crazy low levels. Would it be nice if we could just trust people not to? Sure, it would. But we don't want to have to be policing it, and experience has told us time and again that if we don't put in restrictions, they -will- be violated, which ruins the experience for everyone else.

You are completely misunderstanding the point of the level locks, Korlash. It's not there to stop players from getting tons of XP, as you said that can be done in low-level dungeons in a day or two by a veteran player. It's there - to be quite blunt about it - to stop them from getting hold of items that are above the level the admins want them to be able to possess them.


Actually, we are quite aware. Because to be quite frank, those players were exactly the kind of people who made us put these systems in in the first place. The kinds of people who would run their super-low-level friends through high-level dungeons at near-zero risk to get them high-level items. And while yes, the swift leveling-up of brand-new characters via this method was somewhat annoying, the main problem of it was the tagging-along of these low-level characters into high-level areas where they are utterly incapable of contributing to the challenge of the dungeon, and the utter imbalance caused by allowing them access to high-level equipment.

As FW said, we tried the route of trusting players to follow the item guidelines and, long story short, we got burned for it. So we're doing things the hard way now, and using scripts and rules to force cooperation, since the playerbase - or at least the more troublesome members in it - have proven that they can't be trusted to obey the rules without automated enforcement in place.

I'll let you in on a little secret, a bit of a glimpse into the Admin conversations. We have, repeatedly considered removing the ability to carry items above your tier, making it so you can't even OWN an item until you can equip it. Because the problem of high-level players acquiring gear for their low-level friends and kitting them out multiple levels in advance of them reaching the appropriate tier as well as the former problem of high-level players carting their low-level friends through powerful dungeons to acquire said items has gotten so rampant and all our attempts to curtail it have repeatedly failed.

The only reasons we haven't actually done so yet are a reluctance to punish the entire playerbase for the misdeeds of a few small but immensely-prolific handfuls, not wanting to burden Vincent with yet more script work when he has dungeons he'd like to build and haks he's trying to work on, and wanting to keep that ability for players to get surprisingly lucky and find an item a tier-up in a lower-level dungeon by pure chance. That latter which - if we had to tighten the item possession rules as we are repeatedly and repeatedly tempted to do due to this constant and in some cases rather blatant flaunting of the server's design and intent - would be a possible lucky benefit that would have to be simply completely removed, as it would become incompatible with the server's design after this revision.

We've been pushed to this point over the years and this is the line that will not be crossed. The level locks are never going away. Period. End of Line. Get used to it.

Again, I have not suggested removing the restrictions, but simply tweaking the numbers.

I am saying I think they could be more uniform and lessened a little. The idea I am most fond of it that it is based off of the loot. A few examples, Stonelands Ogres for instance is set at level 14, that one I would just drop by one. Gnolls is set at 19 or 20, which at that point, you're set for that place, but level 17s who are still within the approved loot range you have set and even power range of a level 20 now are not allowed entry.  The Tower of Ruin is set at 13, I think, and that is the perfect place for that dungeon.

Once more, I am -not- suggesting removing the level restrictions on dungeons, but simply opening a discussion on how to improve it to better please everyone and offering suggestions. My main suggestion of it being based off of the loot dropped was even thought of with your own ideas in mind and to work with those systems and restrictions. I have not -once- suggested removing it as you say I have twice now.

If we tweak the numbers any, it will be to tweak them up, not down.

It would be easier to modify the loot drops at that point instead, if you move the numbers up, a lot of these dungeons will become far too easy. It then becomes a problem of people soloing these dungeons more often because while the level they can access it goes up, the threat does not. I know there are some dungeons that could use a rebalance, but redoing all of them would be a huge bit of work, and as has been said before Vince is loaded down as is with new content, the haks, and debugging, not to mention RL.

Look.  At this point, 3 admins have said no.  We've stated our reasons, and the design philosophy behind our server and its dungeons.  Let it go.

Now, to the point of providing an in-game resource (as Lakhena so thoughtfully suggested):

I like the idea.  The thing I've debated is the best method for providing such.

Journal entries often get ignored (since we have plethora already).

Signs require poor Vincent to go through to every dungeon and add them.

What about an "Adventuring Guide" purchasable from the Eyes and Ears?  Something that breaks down by "what's appropriate for my skill?"

Love the idea of a buyable book. it also gives those unfamiliar with the server an idea of where to go looking that is appropriate for them.

I second the book idea... I've been accompanying a completely new player around with a new alt... it's been tough for us both since I can't remember any of the dungeons and we can't seem to find the right ones for our level.  We've been smacked around wandering into the wrong places.... and apparently missing the places we should be going to.

+2 to what Onivel and Lakhena said. I believe Lakhena's post was on the point with the stakes involved with the new system, especially for those who had been gone for a long time and were used to a very different environment.

It would be good to think of ways to help players integrate. The book could probably even be provided by default in the Eyes and Ears once the person gets a charter, ICly described as a guide based on scouts, research, etc on the most recommended places. Then the OOC commentary to supplement how it operates mechanically.

I am currently trying to get a final project for a class out of the way, and have another project that is important for me, but maybe someone on staff could compile such an item to be imported/added to people's inventories from here on?

Sincerely,
Arya

I feel some elaboration is in order, this is nagging at me a little and perhaps I should explain why this is an important issue in my eyes. I have been on three servers in the past that have implemented similar systems, or wanted to. The two that did bring such systems in were Deepingdale Moonsea and Shadows of Tilverton. Both of those servers went six feet under, admittedly from a rather long list of problems, but at the core, it was the restrictions placed on players that started nagging at them (And SoT's staff running around doing their best Doctor Rockso impersonations) and I do not wish to see history repeat itself with CD, I like it here.

I did not randomly come up with these ideas and just presented them here, I had spent a month talking with many players, staff members, and even asked for input from administration on current events on the server that led to these additions when brainstorming these ideas. In short, I did my homework so as not to waste anyone's time. The issues presented here are rather commonly known, any veteran player of CD knows about these issues and the administration's concerns with them and can even name the chief offenders, none of it is a secret. That is partly why I want to see this system not be a cause for friction or a reason that people getting upset.

I pressed the issue on this thread not because I wanted to cram it down people's throats, but because I saw that perhaps there was a misconception, as it seemed people believed I was suggesting removing the level locks entirely. This made me question if I was being clear enough in my suggestions, perhaps I was not. I am not the best at explaining things. I come across rather strong handed, I blame the autism (YAY!). I am not in any way attempting to make anyone's lives harder. So this is my apology if I came across too strong, but my only intention is to see that CD kicks ass.

As for the ideas presented here about getting the word out about the locks, it should be something that players who are new to the server can easily find. When an adventurer first gets their charter, perhaps this book is also given to them with the guild charter item instead of being obtainable from a separate source. Given how much stuff is already in the journals, it would easily be over looked there.

Couldn't the Guild Charter item itself be made into an unlimited times a day usable item that has a simple listing of the dungeons with the level limits? I don't think that would be incredibly hard to create would it?

That would require another script, I think.

I'd rather see the dungeon guide as something listing dungeons by tier for appropriate levels.

(Edit:  Quotes have been provided for context.  I'm aware this seems sort of off-topic otherwise.)

Okay...  Bit of a moment of honesty...  And we all hate those, especially when coming from me.

What I'm seeing here is a disconnect between the admins' reasons and the players' complaints.  The players don't like being restricted as to what content they can run and the admins don't like the result of people getting loot before they're ready.  The players want the restrictions loosened while the admins want to tighten them up, for completely different reasons.

This is going to end badly.

While it's good to see the admins are taking the loot problem seriously, because it is a problem, this is the wrong way to do it.  It took me two minutes of thinking to find multiple ways that level 16/20 characters can still kit themselves out in full purple/orange within hours of going over the threshold, and let's be honest, level 16s and 20s are what we're worried about here.  And none of these ways are against the rules.

Ultimately, the problem isn't the fact that higher-level characters can take lower-level characters into dungeons.  The problem is that loot is too common.  A party can waltz into gnolls, run it once, and come out with an orange or two and several pages of purples.  They'll sell most of them to the shop where other characters can buy them.  Or they can hang onto the good ones and sell or gift them to other players, like some of us already do.  For the aspiring character, it'd be as simple as asking them to hold onto a few good items for when they hit the appropriate level then buying them for a perfectly fair sum of gold because money is not and has never been a problem for the dedicated dungeon-runner on CD (except for solo-heavy UMD-reliant characters, because scrolls and potions are expensive).  And that's also because of how common loot is.  The average gnoll run returns half a million gold and takes a good group half an hour.  The King's Forest orcs are extremely profitable and can be farmed by a decent party in blue gear.  Restricting what dungeons people can go into isn't going to solve the problem, all it's going to do is hinder new players who don't have the connections vets do and won't have anyone to sell them stuff when they hit the threshold levels.

So what I'm seeing, unfortunately, is a solution that will upset players without actually solving the problem.  And that's a lose-lose.  If you want to attack the problem attack it at the root and either make loot less plentiful in the first place or restrict the ability to trade loot.

I think people were initially discussing having items that can help people with dungeon crawls. If we want to discuss loot frequency and suggestions for that, maybe another thread for it?

Sincerely,
Arya

On the topic of an item telling us what the dungeons are and the level restrictions on such, I'd be supportive of having something like this ingame.  My only concern would be that the level bandings are somewhat arbitrary and may not reflect either the difficulty of the dungeon or the loot therein.  As an example, compare Wyvernspur Crypt (15-20) to Bloodfang Gnolls (20+) and most people I run with will tell you Wyvernspur is harder.  It's certainly a league above Ogre Lord's Redoubt (14-18) despite the two dungeons having similar loot and level banding.  We'd have to work together and collaborate to iron these kinks out before we start enforcing them as rules.

Yus, pls. Makes it a semi-IC resource.

Alright folks.  After giving all of this some thought, I have come up with an adjustment that the admins have agreed upon.

So, with my next update, the following changes are going to take place:

As a reference, the Dungeon List is: Here


Currently two groups on that list are locked down, the High and Epic dungeons. However, the level ranges, especially on the former tend to vary quite a bit, and there's just some inconsistencies throughout.
That in mind, as of my next update, the level lock for all dungeons in the High tier will be 12.  The level lock for all dungeons in the Epic tier will be 17.


Further, I am making some minor adjustments to the ILR code, specifically the carry limits, or level at which you can carry loot that is a tier above your current one.  Tier 4 (purple) items will now require level 14 to pick up.  Tier 5 (gold) items will require level 18.  


These two changes will allow more freedom in dungeon selection for mixed level groups, while also addressing the issue of lower levels building up kits of gear for the higher tiers.
As a final note, there is the possibility that one or two dungeons move around within that dungeon list, due to balance adjustments.  Any such changes will be reflected in my update logs as they occur.

Vince, I love your ideas. And it feels like a nice happy medium for some of the stuff brought up. Especially for addressing the concerns you wanted to address.

Initially I opposed item restrictions due to their inability to deal with DM story items. But as it seems that has been resolved, not an issue at all now!


Sincerely,
Arya

The presented solution is pretty much what I had suggested, but further streamlined. I like it.

I can get on board with this solution.  I've a few ideas on dungeons that could use a bump, and I'd like to get a group to try some others, but that's for another thread.

Just to be sure...

My lvl 16 rogue has an orange belt (won it in an auction a long time ago mistaking the tiers). It's been sitting in his sack forever (because: ooops). I know he can't equip it, but will moving it in the inventory drop the item on the ground? I really don't have much need to move it; I just want to make sure it doesn't go kerlop on the ground

More on topic, I like the changes that were decided on. While I tend to be way too introverted when I play (even when I try to play non-introverted characters), it's nice to have some more options when there is a bigger level imbalance between my level and a newer player that I may meet. I've never really had an issue with this in the past (because: introverted and need to be pushed a bit to talk to people) but I can understand why this is a bigger deal to others

If you are carrying gear currently and are then outside of pickup range on it after the next update, (18 for orange gear), that item will drop from your inventory on next login, unless I'm mistaken as to how the OnAccquire fires.

Oooh ouch. Good to know. It's in a container, if that makes any difference at all.

Is there a way this can be removed from my inventory and given back later or otherwise some way that I can keep what I got or retrieve it when he hits the appropriate level?

I think it would be wise for the rules to account for people like Kymus - Fact is, some people who have these items got them before the discussion or implementation of the system.  Just taking their stuff away is a low-work solution for the staff, certainly, but it's also rather rude to the affected players.  Surely we could find some manner of compromise?

The trick would be doing it without people taking advantage of it, but I think those of us who sell high-tier items would be able to identify who those people are. 

This isn't a new rule. This rule has been in place since December 2015.  The fact that people continue to hold items for characters that are too low level, or worse give higher tier items to lower level characters, is why I moved the rule from the admin announcements into the actual rules thread.

What Bella said.

While I do always enjoy the idea of folks getting replacement of illegal items with legal items, I feel like doing what was suggested otherwise might lead to risk of abuse. It is true we need to try giving folks the benefit of the doubt, bit there is still the balance of also holding individuals accountable for when they are trying to take advantage of it. Sadly, it happens, and as it is staff, players, and I feel safe to say the admins are trying to make sure we look for the good in others despite things.

In short, Trylo, I like the intentions presented in your post, but I feel like beyond maybe trading illegal items out for legal ones, the practice of what you are suggesting in the thread can open a big can of worms. :-)

So it needs taken with care. 

Sincerely,
Arya

I was discussing this with FaeFae, and I think I see the issue I had with this.  Namely, I tend to check the rules thread when I look for what the rules are, and it wasn't there until recently (Thanks Bella).  I was still in the previous 'anything from the tier above you is okay' mindset - It was simple and easy to remember.  But this issue has been fixed now, so all is well.

Do support the idea of a downgrade on an existing item, though.

Pretty much what was said on the issue of item levels restrictions and what they will be changed to be. And what folks can hold onto once they come into place.

Merchant PCs or people roleplaying some trades obviously are going to be holding items, but they are not for specific people, and require trades of sort for what they offer. If the least, they also can only provide trade for items folks can hold onto, really.  I know I have gotten rid of items by having characters give them away with the price of a quest or payment of some kind, but I always aim for the trinkets people can legally hold onto - and nothing more than that. 

Bottom line: no holding onto items for friends. 


Sincerely,
Arya