Cormyr and the Dalelands

I figured I would slip this one in since the HAK update is still being worked on.  Half-Elves.  There is the long running joke about how crap they are compared to all other races.  Is there any possibility this race could get some small benefits to make them a more worthwhile option?  It would be nice to see more of them around, what with the server having a half-elf city and all.  Obviously giving them +1 dex, -1 con is right out, but what about giving them something more from the human side?  As it is, all they are is a watered down elf without stat adjustments.  Maybe give them the human bonus feat or the skill point adjustment?

Mmmmm skill points.

Both the free feat, and the skill thing humans get are hard coded things tied to that race.  I sadly cannot give them to Half-Elf without causing a ton of LETO work.  At least as far as I'm aware.

Maybe they could be given a feat for free? Luck of Heroes. Something. Wouldn't quite raise them to the goodness than is the human base race, but it'd be something. Any change would likely be hard to implement, though do agree that.. Some kind of bonus would be nice. The few feats they get do not equal the quality of either elf or human traits.

What the OP said. And anything to mechanically get them on par with the standard races is good. It would also give more incentive to play half-elves over elves. I know sometimes folks pick the latter over the former for mechanics, which is okay as we all sort of do that... but again, it would really be nice to see halfies more! >.>
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...Honestly would not be against just getting rid of half-elf and just having folks pick half-elf as a subtype for elf or human, and let folks decide which blood wins out more, with only background things such as age to help flesh out the half-elf-ness.

A thought if it was not an arm and a leg to do.


Best,
Arya

The main issue with "play elf or human and say you're half" is that Half-Elves, mechanically, are considered both Elf and Human for various things. So keeping them a distinct race is a necessity.

Lacking any better ideas, I looked over to PF's version of Half-Elf to see what they added differently from 3.5's. The primary difference is getting a free Skill Focus at 1st level, which they can trade for Weapon Proficiency (Elf) if they're raised by their Elven parent instead of their Human one, or for the specific Drow racial proficiencies (which NWN doesn't have a feat for) and/or Drow spell-like abilities if they're Half-Drow.

I don't particularly see this as a bad option to add, myself. It'd have to be leto'd in post-creation, of course.

Which is the main issue.  Most adjustments would require a leto.

The exception being if we just granted them a static feat.  Ie: not something they get a choice over.  That I can put in a script catch for that'll just do it on Log-in.

I love these ideas! I definitely think it would be a nice way to offset the, erm, diluted "advantages" of the existing half-elf race.

Would this be a manageable direction, or would this create an ungodly amount of LETO requests, etc.?

At the moment I don't think it would be a huge problem, but that's mostly because Half-Elf PCs aren't common. It wouldn't make them the only base race that requires a LETO to start - Strongheart Halflings, for example, require one.

Could the bonus skill points be kludged with an INT boost given by the subrace setter? Or does that open a new can of worms re: balance?

You'd end up with a race with a (minimum) +2 stat bonus and no penalty, which is normally not something available to ECL 0 races in 3.5.

Ah, fair!

This could actually be done as a script/conversation addition in the character start area, no hak mods or Leto needed? At the race picker for half elf, just give a list of potential bonus feats at startup and/or 4 bonus skill points, let the player pick one, presto! Yes?

The skillpoints thing is a flat out no-go, as you'd have to have a leto or conversation with an npc every level, and we'd have to figure out some way of ensuring it isn't grabbed twice for the same level or anything like that. Not worth the hassle.

Adding feats is a bit easier, but it's ultimately a Vincent call.

Obviously we just give them the Quick To Master feat.

You know, the bonus feat that gives you a bonus feat. The epitome of BioWare's coding prowess!

I'll show myself the door.

I'd suggest Elf Weapon Proficiency or +2 persuade/sense motive/search on skin to represent their PnP benefits.

They already get the search bonus, as well as a spot and listen bonus, but I'd forgotten they also were supposed to get other racial skills. It's not much but it is probably something they should be having.

Not sure that would be enough to call it a proper equalization, still leaving them relatively subpar compared to all the other races, but it's a step in the right direction.

An inferior spot/listen bonus.  +1 instead of +2.

What about Silver Palm, to represent the above mentioned PnP balance...? Or would that cause issues as a 1st-level feat?

I only meant for the initial +4 skill points as an option. They aren't human, thus the choice to have the initial +4 skill points to start could reflect that.

Since skill focus is a flat, all for one +3 to a skill, I could see 4 additional flexible points at creation to be worth a choice vs. a feat.

I'm personally not a fan of giving out extra skill points at a one-time-only situation. If they're not getting them every level, I'm not wanting to give them at all.

EDIT: To explain a bit better at a time when it's not midnight and I'm not in the process of heading to bed....

The thing that makes the human skill point bonus so good is that it comes at every level. You get the bonus 4 at level 1 because everything at level 1 is multiplied by 4 in 3.5. This allows you to max out a skill that you might not have touched or might have only dabbled in with another race, or to dabble into one or more extra skills over the course of your leveling.

Giving half-elves a one time bonus of 4 skill points is a bad idea for two reasons - one it gives them at level 1, where you can only put a maximum of 4 points in any skill, so the ability to dabble is preemptively extremely limited, and two it sets a precedent that later levels will not meet, leading to confusion about why extra skill points were gained at first level but never show up again.

As for comparing them to Skill Focus.... it's not equivalent at all, actually. The bonus of Skill Focus is that, like any other feat or any items, it goes above the limitations of ranks in a skill for your level. Say for example you put Skill Focus (Hide) on a roguish character, then max out your Hide skill at level 1; that gives you, before stats, item bonuses, and penalties, a +7 to your Hide score. (4 max ranks + 3 from Skill Focus.) Trying to do the same with bonus skill points is not possible because of the limitations of spending points per level; you'd be limited to the +4 granted from ranks alone.

The other benefit of Skill Focus is that it lets some characters get a leg up toward prereqs at a later point, much like a Human bonus feat often does. For example, a would-be Half-Elf Archmage suddenly has a free feat toward their PrC, as Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is a requirement for the class. This is something, obviously, that a handful of bonus skill points won't do.

The long and short of it is that just handing Half-Elves a one-time bonus of 4 skill points isn't a very good compromise for a handful of reasons. I think we can find a much better solution to improving them.

I'll stick my hat into this one.

So we have multiple sub-races now for the half-elves, would it be uncalled for to give them a +2 stat boost depending on their choice of sub-race?

This would give them the position of being the only standard race that gets a +2 with no 'downside' stat, but since other races also get other serious goodies (humans get the feats and skills, halflings get small sized, lucky, the possibility even of a bonus feat, elves proficiency and keen senses, etc...)

Here would be a basic suggestion for it.

Wild half-elf: +2 Str
Wood half-elf: +2 Dex
Sun half-elf: +2 Int
Moon Half-elf: +2 Cha

With everything else staying the same, this I think 'bumps' half-elf mechanically into being viable; however, I'll shoot my own foot here and say I'm playing a Half-elf right now, and I don't really feel all that gimped, really when it comes down to it I pick a race based on backstory and not stats. Without any changes I'd still consider half-elves fine.

My one complaint with this suggestion, all balance and such issues aside, is that the stat bonuses should probably stick to what their full-elven counterpart gets. Meaning Moon Half-Elf would be the one to get the +2 Dex, as the Moon Elf stats are +2 DEX, -2 CON.

Wood Half-Elf would get +2 STR or DEX (Wood Elf is +2 STR, +2 DEX, –2 INT, –2 CON).

Wild Half-Elf would get +2 DEX as well (Wild Elf is +2 DEX, -2 INT).

My bad, was trying only to spread out the possible stats - and I wasn't exactly using references up above.

More pitching the idea to put that train of thought in the discussion.

If we did something on the lines of stat boosts, I think a +1 would probably fit better, if we weren't giving them a negative. +1 would at least be useful, though without being so much so that everyone starts wanting to play them instead of various other ECL0 or 1 races that feature a +2 boost.

I'm not personally opposed to odd numbered stat boosts, but there is a reason the 3.x designers avoided them.  Because the modifiers only increase or decrease on even numbered stats, it's slightly easier to cheese with odd numbered boosts.  For example, turning a 17 str and 9 cha into 18 str and 8 cha respectively is all benefit and no downside.  That said, with the plethora of templates available, there's much crazier things that can be achieved.

Having a +1 on a chosen stat is not bad on the long run, as a PC gets total +5 stat points before the epic levels (at lvl 4,8,12,16,and 20), so with the racial +1 it gets +6 which is +3 in ability modifiers (if all of them is heaped on one stat).

A +2 modifier on a stat is an immediate boost, a +1 is a boost in the long run.

As a person who loves half-elves, I'd love for this to be a thing. I've played them a fair bit, but it was always a choice to be sub-optimal, giving up raw character power or usefulness in exchange for the benefit of getting to RP one of the most interesting races in the multiverse.

The +1 stat boni would be excellent, if it can be done without investing time from DMs. If all elven races are considered, there would be options for most stats, with the only exceptions being Wisdom and Constitution. Of course Sun- and Star- elves tend not to make half-elves, but at that point it is up to a player to come up with a good background.

On that subject, by the 1380s Sildeyuir should be close to total collapse and the Star Elves having to flee back to Aglarond in increasing numbers? Just - random lore fridge moment here.

As that's lore after our cutoff date (DR 1372) we ignore it. Sildeyuir will hang in there until we decide otherwise, preferably when a DM gets a good idea for a plot or event tied to it.

That does sound way cooler than just saying "it's slowly going poof between scenes"