Title: Rule Clarification about "Muling", please?
Post by: lackofimagination on Jul 04, 2022, 03:07 PM
Post by: lackofimagination on Jul 04, 2022, 03:07 PM
Hello,
I know the Staff of C&D has much better to do than rule lawyering and that we should, in general, be able to refer to common sense to figure what's right and what's wrong to do on the server, yet, recently I have heard several things about "muling" which, to me, happened to sound contradictory, or going against some very fundamental roleplayed acts.
Some things that I would consider "muling", I've been told are "authorised" while some things I believe should be just fine seem to have the potential to earn a "muling flag".
So, sorry to once again bring a potentially tedious subject, but I would appreciate either a "Rule clarification" or a "Rule change" in order to raise awareness and bring everyone on the same page as to what is accepted and what isn't on the server.
Where the roleplay stops and the game system exploitation begins. And doing so in hope that no one on the server ends up losing items and levels without having known that they were doing something wrong in the Staff's eyes.
I originally intended on quoting in this post the "rule" and all the amendements and addendums done to it, but it seems alot of what I've seen over the past few days have been on discord. I would also not want to turn this into a "pointing fingers at" thread, so, instead of "Quoting" with who said what and where, I will simply state what I currently know.
This mean there will be mistakes, misunderstandings and misinterpretations and that I ask the staff to please read my post as being "written in good faith, by a player of the server who does not have insider clues" and help come to a clear definition of how we should handle item transfers, gifts, player merchants/smugglers, faction quartermasters and the likes.
So, first "What is Muling" and "What is Twinking".
Generally accepted definition of muling is using a MMORPG character, or NPC companion in a tabletop RPG, to store extra inventory for the owner's primary character.
In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving the low-level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable.
I am pretty sure I did read somewhere (probably on on a Discord server announcement) that "Muling is strictly forbidden on CD", it is supposedly not a bannable offense, but you are ment to lose, at the very least "some exps and the transfered items", or from what I've heard "One or more full levels and up to all your items. for both your characters involved in the transaction and for "the mule", the person who helped you with the transfer".
On the other hand, I've read that "Selling something from one of your characters and buying it from the NPC vendor (Liesel in Arabel, the Yulash or the Swordhaven vendors, but there are certainly others) with your other character is fine". I asked directly and was told "Crafting a stack of scrolls with one of my characters, selling said stack of scrolls to a NPC vendor, and then buying it back with another of my characters is fine". (which I personally thought was one of the main things the "strict no muling" policy was aiming at avoiding).
With just these informations, I would simply raise a hand and say "Wait a second. So, the actual team's concern is not outright Muling, but is the possibility of alternate characters receiving equipment well in advance of what they normally should? On a semantic side, Muling isn't really the problem, Twinking is, and it isn't strictly forbidden, it is Taxed, and evading the tax is what is strictly forbidden."
I know the Staff of C&D has much better to do than rule lawyering and that we should, in general, be able to refer to common sense to figure what's right and what's wrong to do on the server, yet, recently I have heard several things about "muling" which, to me, happened to sound contradictory, or going against some very fundamental roleplayed acts.
Some things that I would consider "muling", I've been told are "authorised" while some things I believe should be just fine seem to have the potential to earn a "muling flag".
So, sorry to once again bring a potentially tedious subject, but I would appreciate either a "Rule clarification" or a "Rule change" in order to raise awareness and bring everyone on the same page as to what is accepted and what isn't on the server.
Where the roleplay stops and the game system exploitation begins. And doing so in hope that no one on the server ends up losing items and levels without having known that they were doing something wrong in the Staff's eyes.
I originally intended on quoting in this post the "rule" and all the amendements and addendums done to it, but it seems alot of what I've seen over the past few days have been on discord. I would also not want to turn this into a "pointing fingers at" thread, so, instead of "Quoting" with who said what and where, I will simply state what I currently know.
This mean there will be mistakes, misunderstandings and misinterpretations and that I ask the staff to please read my post as being "written in good faith, by a player of the server who does not have insider clues" and help come to a clear definition of how we should handle item transfers, gifts, player merchants/smugglers, faction quartermasters and the likes.
So, first "What is Muling" and "What is Twinking".
Generally accepted definition of muling is using a MMORPG character, or NPC companion in a tabletop RPG, to store extra inventory for the owner's primary character.
In MMORPGs, twinking refers to a character gaining equipment with the assistance of a higher level character, particularly by giving the low-level character higher level equipment that is otherwise unattainable.
I am pretty sure I did read somewhere (probably on on a Discord server announcement) that "Muling is strictly forbidden on CD", it is supposedly not a bannable offense, but you are ment to lose, at the very least "some exps and the transfered items", or from what I've heard "One or more full levels and up to all your items. for both your characters involved in the transaction and for "the mule", the person who helped you with the transfer".
On the other hand, I've read that "Selling something from one of your characters and buying it from the NPC vendor (Liesel in Arabel, the Yulash or the Swordhaven vendors, but there are certainly others) with your other character is fine". I asked directly and was told "Crafting a stack of scrolls with one of my characters, selling said stack of scrolls to a NPC vendor, and then buying it back with another of my characters is fine". (which I personally thought was one of the main things the "strict no muling" policy was aiming at avoiding).
With just these informations, I would simply raise a hand and say "Wait a second. So, the actual team's concern is not outright Muling, but is the possibility of alternate characters receiving equipment well in advance of what they normally should? On a semantic side, Muling isn't really the problem, Twinking is, and it isn't strictly forbidden, it is Taxed, and evading the tax is what is strictly forbidden."
But then, I also read somewhere else in the discord "grabbing an item for a friend that wasn't present but could carry it and passing it is okay as long as the item didn't come from a dungeon that player was in your party with on another PC, which would be muling."
Aaaand suddenly my brain melts. Let me try and present a few examples and point, according to the rules as they are currently presented, what's okay and what isn't... and why the whole situation looks confusing to me and I believe would need being ironed out.
Assume player A runs an epic dungeon with player B, at the end of the dungeon, they split loot. Player A's character knows player B's character, but is also in the same faction as one of player B's lower level alt. Some Purple Item dropped that player A knows is always useful, instead of selling it, they keep it and later give it to player C who is Quartermaster of said faction, and, wanting to be an efficient Quartermaster, player C forks the item to player B's lower level alt.
According to current ruling, all four characters should lose items and a full level for Muling, regardless or not of B having even been -aware- of the item dropping. Actually, you can even remove player B from the epic dungeon run, if player A picks up an item and gives it to their faction Quartermaster who then hands the item down to someone who wouldn't have access to the same vendor tier as player A's character, all three are punishable. If the alt isn't "lower vendor tier" but B was in the run, they're still all four punishable. We're not even talking about the epic loot that dropped in the run, we're talking about one or two tier lower gear which is pretty much considered as "vendor fodder" by the characters who ran the dungeon.
On the other hand... if you run a dungeon with, say, a level 26 character, with a level 17 and a level 18 friends, you see an item drop that you'd like to fork to one of your lower level alts, you just need to choose carefully at the end of your run which one of your friends is going to sell the item to the NPC vendor, log on your alt, buy it, and you're fine?
I can make the first example even more simple and crude. Assume player A with their level 20 character roleplays giving fencing lessons to player B's freshly level 15 character, at the end of their roleplay, since A's character recently upgraded to a T5 weapon, they want to conclude the session by gifting player B's character with their old T4 weapon. Both characters aren't in the same vendor bracket, this is "Muling".
Assume another of player A's level 15 character has found a fancy sword that they didn't sell to a NPC vendor, some months ago. They have it in their bags, meet new player Y who just levels to 15 in a dungeon they ran together. Player A wants to celebrate the occasion and gifts the fancy sword to player Y and suddenly, they're muling, because the item did not drop at a moment where player Y's character could have carried it, for all we know, player Y's character may not even have been a twinkling in player Y's eyes when the item dropped?
Do I need to make more examples?
I believe (but I may be wrong) that, what the Staff wants to avoid, it's seeing player A's Good aligned swordmage character soloing dungeons, stacking up a full set of perfect equipment for an Evil aligned alt they've just posted their exotic request for and waiting for their Evil aligned alt to get the level to suddenly "meet by accident the new player B merchant smuggler friend who's going to sell them the whole set of gear they just received from player A's higher level character for just a couple peanuts"
So, what is exactly the problem? What should be affected and to what extend? Is it really fine that I craft a dozen of stacks of 100 scrolls with one of my character and fork them through Liesel to another one of my characters? Is it really not fine that I receive "the old sword of a higher level from my faction"? Should actually players -not- keep spare "rare" gear for their friends/members of their faction and should -all loot that isn't kept to be used eventually by the character keeping it- be sold to the NPCs "asap"? Should "Quartermaster" and "Player Traders" IC roleplay roles be made non-compliant with the server?
Depending on what exactly is researched as result, I can offer alot of suggestions, some that could open whole new avenues of roleplay on the server with (relatively) minimal scripting, some that would just be "well, let everyone know <insert statement>" but currently, while I've heard of "people getting caught by the anti-muling scripts", what Admin/sDM statements I read makes me increasingly worried that I might end up getting flagged, just because a friend wanted to be nice to me and hand to one of my characters some items that were picked up during a run where I was present with another of my characters, and they're not aware of the rule and not telling me "come to the shop, I'm selling this for you to buy".
I'm worrying for myself, but I run alot of dungeons, and just last week, in two of the factions I was with, items were traded in my eyes "in good faith", but in ways making me think "wait, how can they be sure we aren't falling under this rule or that one".
Do we really consider rules that forbid a level 20+ character who's just returning from a dungeon run, to hand down an item useable for them to a new low level character they've just met and are finding agreeable a positive?
Would it be really bad if someone who has just joined a faction and done a dungeon for which they barely had the level to enter, get told by their faction's seniors "Well, this is too powerful for you at the moment, but meditate, young padawan, and train hard, and a few days you'll be able to wield proudly this <insert whatever> that you helped recover with us from the Evil goons"?
Could we make clear what is acceptable and what isn't?
Assume player A runs an epic dungeon with player B, at the end of the dungeon, they split loot. Player A's character knows player B's character, but is also in the same faction as one of player B's lower level alt. Some Purple Item dropped that player A knows is always useful, instead of selling it, they keep it and later give it to player C who is Quartermaster of said faction, and, wanting to be an efficient Quartermaster, player C forks the item to player B's lower level alt.
According to current ruling, all four characters should lose items and a full level for Muling, regardless or not of B having even been -aware- of the item dropping. Actually, you can even remove player B from the epic dungeon run, if player A picks up an item and gives it to their faction Quartermaster who then hands the item down to someone who wouldn't have access to the same vendor tier as player A's character, all three are punishable. If the alt isn't "lower vendor tier" but B was in the run, they're still all four punishable. We're not even talking about the epic loot that dropped in the run, we're talking about one or two tier lower gear which is pretty much considered as "vendor fodder" by the characters who ran the dungeon.
On the other hand... if you run a dungeon with, say, a level 26 character, with a level 17 and a level 18 friends, you see an item drop that you'd like to fork to one of your lower level alts, you just need to choose carefully at the end of your run which one of your friends is going to sell the item to the NPC vendor, log on your alt, buy it, and you're fine?
I can make the first example even more simple and crude. Assume player A with their level 20 character roleplays giving fencing lessons to player B's freshly level 15 character, at the end of their roleplay, since A's character recently upgraded to a T5 weapon, they want to conclude the session by gifting player B's character with their old T4 weapon. Both characters aren't in the same vendor bracket, this is "Muling".
Assume another of player A's level 15 character has found a fancy sword that they didn't sell to a NPC vendor, some months ago. They have it in their bags, meet new player Y who just levels to 15 in a dungeon they ran together. Player A wants to celebrate the occasion and gifts the fancy sword to player Y and suddenly, they're muling, because the item did not drop at a moment where player Y's character could have carried it, for all we know, player Y's character may not even have been a twinkling in player Y's eyes when the item dropped?
Do I need to make more examples?
I believe (but I may be wrong) that, what the Staff wants to avoid, it's seeing player A's Good aligned swordmage character soloing dungeons, stacking up a full set of perfect equipment for an Evil aligned alt they've just posted their exotic request for and waiting for their Evil aligned alt to get the level to suddenly "meet by accident the new player B merchant smuggler friend who's going to sell them the whole set of gear they just received from player A's higher level character for just a couple peanuts"
So, what is exactly the problem? What should be affected and to what extend? Is it really fine that I craft a dozen of stacks of 100 scrolls with one of my character and fork them through Liesel to another one of my characters? Is it really not fine that I receive "the old sword of a higher level from my faction"? Should actually players -not- keep spare "rare" gear for their friends/members of their faction and should -all loot that isn't kept to be used eventually by the character keeping it- be sold to the NPCs "asap"? Should "Quartermaster" and "Player Traders" IC roleplay roles be made non-compliant with the server?
Depending on what exactly is researched as result, I can offer alot of suggestions, some that could open whole new avenues of roleplay on the server with (relatively) minimal scripting, some that would just be "well, let everyone know <insert statement>" but currently, while I've heard of "people getting caught by the anti-muling scripts", what Admin/sDM statements I read makes me increasingly worried that I might end up getting flagged, just because a friend wanted to be nice to me and hand to one of my characters some items that were picked up during a run where I was present with another of my characters, and they're not aware of the rule and not telling me "come to the shop, I'm selling this for you to buy".
I'm worrying for myself, but I run alot of dungeons, and just last week, in two of the factions I was with, items were traded in my eyes "in good faith", but in ways making me think "wait, how can they be sure we aren't falling under this rule or that one".
Do we really consider rules that forbid a level 20+ character who's just returning from a dungeon run, to hand down an item useable for them to a new low level character they've just met and are finding agreeable a positive?
Would it be really bad if someone who has just joined a faction and done a dungeon for which they barely had the level to enter, get told by their faction's seniors "Well, this is too powerful for you at the moment, but meditate, young padawan, and train hard, and a few days you'll be able to wield proudly this <insert whatever> that you helped recover with us from the Evil goons"?
Could we make clear what is acceptable and what isn't?
Title: Rule Clarification about "Muling", please?
Post by: Throg on Jul 04, 2022, 03:43 PM
Post by: Throg on Jul 04, 2022, 03:43 PM
I admit I also am a bit confused about it too now. (But I confuse easily. 
) As I originally though the rule was simply... Don't hold an item for someone who can't carry it yet. IE: level 20 holding a gold item for someone until they are level 18 and can take it. As well as don't drop it with your Character A and pick it up with your Character B. But you can sell it to vender with Character A and buy it with Character B. Which I assumed is okay because (a lot of the times) how is someone supposed to know if an item they want to buy was sold by another one of their characters a few hours earlier.
But I have also seen a few discord messages that say there is more to it. Specifically, the don't give an item to another player's character if their other character was in the dungeon run with you. So. for example: The Drow do a Gnoll Run... At the end of the run Nyloth collects all the loot and sells the "vender fodder", but among them is a set of Extreme Paranoia (I actually have I think 4 sets of them as I type this on Nyloth now). He keeps it because it is a very popular set that people want. (I do this with any popular gear: cloaks, rings, boots, etc) Two or three months down the road "Simon" meets a new character (that wasn't even made at the time I got the Extreme Paranoia as well as was with Nyloth on another character) who just made level 15 and is looking for an Extreme Paranoia. If I sell/trade/give etc said armor, did we break the rules and will get flagged by the muling scripts? If so, how could this type of RP be done as I have no idea how to keep track of what piece of equipment I have in my bags was received by who or if they were with me in the dungeon with another character when I got it.
) As I originally though the rule was simply... Don't hold an item for someone who can't carry it yet. IE: level 20 holding a gold item for someone until they are level 18 and can take it. As well as don't drop it with your Character A and pick it up with your Character B. But you can sell it to vender with Character A and buy it with Character B. Which I assumed is okay because (a lot of the times) how is someone supposed to know if an item they want to buy was sold by another one of their characters a few hours earlier.But I have also seen a few discord messages that say there is more to it. Specifically, the don't give an item to another player's character if their other character was in the dungeon run with you. So. for example: The Drow do a Gnoll Run... At the end of the run Nyloth collects all the loot and sells the "vender fodder", but among them is a set of Extreme Paranoia (I actually have I think 4 sets of them as I type this on Nyloth now). He keeps it because it is a very popular set that people want. (I do this with any popular gear: cloaks, rings, boots, etc) Two or three months down the road "Simon" meets a new character (that wasn't even made at the time I got the Extreme Paranoia as well as was with Nyloth on another character) who just made level 15 and is looking for an Extreme Paranoia. If I sell/trade/give etc said armor, did we break the rules and will get flagged by the muling scripts? If so, how could this type of RP be done as I have no idea how to keep track of what piece of equipment I have in my bags was received by who or if they were with me in the dungeon with another character when I got it.
Title: Rule Clarification about "Muling", please?
Post by: Fox² on Jul 04, 2022, 03:54 PM
Post by: Fox² on Jul 04, 2022, 03:54 PM
Muling is transferring items from one of your characters to one of your other characters. This extends to loot found in a dungeon by your party.
The only exception we make here is selling items to a pawn shop and then rebuying them on another PC because it would be an unreasonable demand on players to be able to know what items in the pawn shop originated from their other characters, so we give a blanket exception to all items in the shop.
Twinking is giving other characters items beyond their level range. For the most part we handle this kindly through our item level restriction system that prevents low level characters from picking up out-of-tier items in the first place. Holding onto or reserving items to wait until a lower level character is higher level and able to carry an item bypasses our intent with the loot system, so we ask players to not do it.
Our first rule of the server is common sense, and this extends both ways to players and staff alike. We er on the side of caution, and we'll always come talk to you if something isn't right.
We don't chase after player merchants or quartermasters because they might have accidentally given an item from one player to another PC of that player's. We look at people who run into a removed corner of the world, drop an equipment set, then hotswap onto their other PC to equip themselves with their own gear. We look at players who barter items to a friend then immediately relog to reclaim the items. We look at people gaming the system with the intention of cheating the loot system and the server rules.
The only exception we make here is selling items to a pawn shop and then rebuying them on another PC because it would be an unreasonable demand on players to be able to know what items in the pawn shop originated from their other characters, so we give a blanket exception to all items in the shop.
Twinking is giving other characters items beyond their level range. For the most part we handle this kindly through our item level restriction system that prevents low level characters from picking up out-of-tier items in the first place. Holding onto or reserving items to wait until a lower level character is higher level and able to carry an item bypasses our intent with the loot system, so we ask players to not do it.
Our first rule of the server is common sense, and this extends both ways to players and staff alike. We er on the side of caution, and we'll always come talk to you if something isn't right.
We don't chase after player merchants or quartermasters because they might have accidentally given an item from one player to another PC of that player's. We look at people who run into a removed corner of the world, drop an equipment set, then hotswap onto their other PC to equip themselves with their own gear. We look at players who barter items to a friend then immediately relog to reclaim the items. We look at people gaming the system with the intention of cheating the loot system and the server rules.
Title: Rule Clarification about "Muling", please?
Post by: Nokteronoth on Jul 05, 2022, 06:37 AM
Post by: Nokteronoth on Jul 05, 2022, 06:37 AM
Basically, it comes down to: Is it fair for you to gear up one of your own characters using metagamed knowledge?
Is it fair if you go dungeon on one character, and your other character mystically knows, instantly, that one of character A's party members has an item that they just happen to want?
Is it fair if you drop an item on the ground in a random hidden spot on the server, and your other character just happens to run across it 5 minutes later?
The answer to above being 'no'.
Is it fair for a player to sell things to a neutral shop, where anyone else can buy it? Yes.
Is it fair for a merchant player to forget where the items they sold came from, or from whom? Yes.
We don't penalize on an item that might pass from one character to another over the course of months/years. We do penalize someone that's using metagame knowledge outside of their character's wheelhouse(With or without cooperation from others) in order to gain an advantage unfairly, or to gear themselves up outside of the normal course of adventuring.
It's one thing to trade items around. It's another entirely to use one of your characters to benefit an alt directly, with or without your friends being a middleman.
~BR
Is it fair if you go dungeon on one character, and your other character mystically knows, instantly, that one of character A's party members has an item that they just happen to want?
Is it fair if you drop an item on the ground in a random hidden spot on the server, and your other character just happens to run across it 5 minutes later?
The answer to above being 'no'.
Is it fair for a player to sell things to a neutral shop, where anyone else can buy it? Yes.
Is it fair for a merchant player to forget where the items they sold came from, or from whom? Yes.
We don't penalize on an item that might pass from one character to another over the course of months/years. We do penalize someone that's using metagame knowledge outside of their character's wheelhouse(With or without cooperation from others) in order to gain an advantage unfairly, or to gear themselves up outside of the normal course of adventuring.
It's one thing to trade items around. It's another entirely to use one of your characters to benefit an alt directly, with or without your friends being a middleman.
~BR