Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 11, 2015, 05:19 PM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 11, 2015, 05:19 PM
So since a lot of people seem to have some misconceptions about this, I wanted to discuss more at length what's going on with all of this. Secondly, if anyone has any suggestions for better accomplishing the overall goals, this is the place to discuss that too.
First, to clear up how treasure on CD works. It's not dependent on your level, nor the level of your party. It is entirely predefined by the level set on the treasure chest itself (and therefore the dungeon it's in). While some players have their superstitions about how or why loot works, none of those have any bearing on what drops.*
Secondly, what drops is generally random, but the level of the chest has a strong influence on this, because that dictates which tier of loot it can draw from. As a general rule of thumb, it tends to draw from the tier below, the tier it's at, and also has a very small chance to draw from the next tier up. Thus, the design principle is that at a given level, you will mostly be looking for gear at your level, and might get really lucky and find something better than you would expect to. As you gain levels, and move to harder dungeons, the items you can find grow progressively better as well.
This is matched, in part, by the progression of the shops in the module. At first you can buy mundane items and a few +1 items. Over time, this gets better. Roughly speaking, the stores are meant to offer 'catch up' gear, in case you missed something. At 16th level, you can (roughly) buy +3 gear, i.e. Tier 3/Blue, because by that level, we would expect that you have mostly blue gear, and if you need any replacement pieces, you can now buy those.
*The exception is that the treasure generator is indeed an inherently evil and intelligent entity, and at times will do cruel and horrible things, but this has nothing to do with level.
So that's the theory and design intent.
Now consider it like this - what would happen if we threw the shops open entirely, to the point that you could start off buying +4 or +5 gear?
Everyone would have it, and while some people might still run dungeons for XP or just for the heck of it, the "ooh, what did we find?" factor is largely eliminated. We believe this factor is an important part of the fun of dungeon content, so we're very keen on keeping it around. We only have so much in the way of gear to award, because our tier system ends at +5 - so when people try and run it out early, there's nothing left after.
And unfortunately, that sort of thing is effectively what starts happening when people give lower level characters items that they shouldn't be able to get on their own - whether by handing it to them after letting them join a high level dungeon run, or selling it to them, or whatnot. We see the power creep already in the fact that people are complaining because I'm telling them they shouldn't be stocking up on +4 gear at level 9.
We've been to this point once before, which is part of why we put the color level codes on in the first place. They were meant to be very lenient, in that we figured we were giving a few extra levels of leeway beyond when people should be finding them - except people have taken that level, and started jumping way past it.
So that's the primary issue, mostly.
So we've taken two steps to address it.
One is setting a minimum level to even carry the item, to prevent the worst abuses - but this still doesn't address the core problem of people gearing way ahead of their level. We could set it as a hard limit (meaning you can't carry anything even 1 tier above), but I worry that might penalize people who legitimately get the "lucky find".
Two is setting a minimum level to enter the highest level dungeons, because people were being taken through long before it was appropriate. We used to make the policy that you could bring anyone, as long as they contributed and took relatively equal risks (i.e., shooting arrows from the back was fine, standing around invisible while the others kill stuff was not). Unfortunately we seem unable to trust the community to self-police on that, and as there are only four admins, we can't constantly be watching. We felt therefore that it was better to lock the dungeon, and that way, if you wanted to do an inclusive dungeon run, you could go somewhere more appropriate for the entire group's level range, and if you wanted to do a challenging epic dungeon, you'd bring an appropriate group for that.
We've still left a lot of dungeons open, including some that are notably hard/challenging. If you are below the level 15 (or 18) cutoff for some of these, I can guarantee that there are still a number of ones you could run - dungeons that you might have otherwise found, but you aren't aware of because the higher level veteran players don't run those very often. If you need assistance getting pointed in the direction of one, feel free to ask - or just pick one from the list, and go searching for it.
First, to clear up how treasure on CD works. It's not dependent on your level, nor the level of your party. It is entirely predefined by the level set on the treasure chest itself (and therefore the dungeon it's in). While some players have their superstitions about how or why loot works, none of those have any bearing on what drops.*
Secondly, what drops is generally random, but the level of the chest has a strong influence on this, because that dictates which tier of loot it can draw from. As a general rule of thumb, it tends to draw from the tier below, the tier it's at, and also has a very small chance to draw from the next tier up. Thus, the design principle is that at a given level, you will mostly be looking for gear at your level, and might get really lucky and find something better than you would expect to. As you gain levels, and move to harder dungeons, the items you can find grow progressively better as well.
This is matched, in part, by the progression of the shops in the module. At first you can buy mundane items and a few +1 items. Over time, this gets better. Roughly speaking, the stores are meant to offer 'catch up' gear, in case you missed something. At 16th level, you can (roughly) buy +3 gear, i.e. Tier 3/Blue, because by that level, we would expect that you have mostly blue gear, and if you need any replacement pieces, you can now buy those.
*The exception is that the treasure generator is indeed an inherently evil and intelligent entity, and at times will do cruel and horrible things, but this has nothing to do with level.
So that's the theory and design intent.
Now consider it like this - what would happen if we threw the shops open entirely, to the point that you could start off buying +4 or +5 gear?
Everyone would have it, and while some people might still run dungeons for XP or just for the heck of it, the "ooh, what did we find?" factor is largely eliminated. We believe this factor is an important part of the fun of dungeon content, so we're very keen on keeping it around. We only have so much in the way of gear to award, because our tier system ends at +5 - so when people try and run it out early, there's nothing left after.
And unfortunately, that sort of thing is effectively what starts happening when people give lower level characters items that they shouldn't be able to get on their own - whether by handing it to them after letting them join a high level dungeon run, or selling it to them, or whatnot. We see the power creep already in the fact that people are complaining because I'm telling them they shouldn't be stocking up on +4 gear at level 9.
We've been to this point once before, which is part of why we put the color level codes on in the first place. They were meant to be very lenient, in that we figured we were giving a few extra levels of leeway beyond when people should be finding them - except people have taken that level, and started jumping way past it.
So that's the primary issue, mostly.
So we've taken two steps to address it.
One is setting a minimum level to even carry the item, to prevent the worst abuses - but this still doesn't address the core problem of people gearing way ahead of their level. We could set it as a hard limit (meaning you can't carry anything even 1 tier above), but I worry that might penalize people who legitimately get the "lucky find".
Two is setting a minimum level to enter the highest level dungeons, because people were being taken through long before it was appropriate. We used to make the policy that you could bring anyone, as long as they contributed and took relatively equal risks (i.e., shooting arrows from the back was fine, standing around invisible while the others kill stuff was not). Unfortunately we seem unable to trust the community to self-police on that, and as there are only four admins, we can't constantly be watching. We felt therefore that it was better to lock the dungeon, and that way, if you wanted to do an inclusive dungeon run, you could go somewhere more appropriate for the entire group's level range, and if you wanted to do a challenging epic dungeon, you'd bring an appropriate group for that.
We've still left a lot of dungeons open, including some that are notably hard/challenging. If you are below the level 15 (or 18) cutoff for some of these, I can guarantee that there are still a number of ones you could run - dungeons that you might have otherwise found, but you aren't aware of because the higher level veteran players don't run those very often. If you need assistance getting pointed in the direction of one, feel free to ask - or just pick one from the list, and go searching for it.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: silentsteps on Dec 12, 2015, 07:23 AM
Post by: silentsteps on Dec 12, 2015, 07:23 AM
"One is setting a minimum level to even carry the item, to prevent the worst abuses - but this still doesn't address the core problem of people gearing way ahead of their level. We could set it as a hard limit (meaning you can't carry anything even 1 tier above), but I worry that might penalize people who legitimately get the "lucky find"."
Personally, I do not mind the implemented system and see the uses and arguments for it solid. This was one of my concerns, as a person who enjoyes going through the dungeons, just becasue when I come from work, I often do not feel like doing high focused RP, I can go mindless dungeon crawl. Now, I've had situation in which I've found items tier above what I should have, concern is that I am penalized for it for keeping them, if they were of any use to the character.
I can understand the established means against muling items for lowbies, which is good. Keeps the world living and dangerous place to be in.
EDIT: Does the admind or DM's have means to check where the item originated from? For example in cases to check if the players found the item from a dungeon or in case of muling? Perhaps it could be used to ensure that those who have tier above items, acually earned them by lucky strike?
Personally, I do not mind the implemented system and see the uses and arguments for it solid. This was one of my concerns, as a person who enjoyes going through the dungeons, just becasue when I come from work, I often do not feel like doing high focused RP, I can go mindless dungeon crawl. Now, I've had situation in which I've found items tier above what I should have, concern is that I am penalized for it for keeping them, if they were of any use to the character.
I can understand the established means against muling items for lowbies, which is good. Keeps the world living and dangerous place to be in.
EDIT: Does the admind or DM's have means to check where the item originated from? For example in cases to check if the players found the item from a dungeon or in case of muling? Perhaps it could be used to ensure that those who have tier above items, acually earned them by lucky strike?
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edge on Dec 12, 2015, 08:24 AM
Post by: Edge on Dec 12, 2015, 08:24 AM
One tier above is not really an issue. There is a chance - very small, but present - of a chest or other item drop script pulling an item from a tier one higher than normal. (So a 5-10 area might pull a blue item, or a 11-15 area might pull a purple, etc.) Furthermore, the script policing item acquisitions only does so for items two tiers above, not one, so getting that lucky roll shouldn't have you fighting against the script to get something rightfully earned. (No chest script pulls from two tiers up, no matter how lucky your roll, so that shouldn't be an issue. You'll never see a purple in a 5-10 dungeon, or an orange in a 11-15 dungeon.)
The only real ways to get your hands on an item two tiers above your current level is to either be in a dungeon intended for characters well above your level, or to be given that item by a higher-level character. So while we cannot actually perform any sort of check on the item itself to determine its place of origin, the system as designed limits the ability to acquire an item that far above your current station.
The only real ways to get your hands on an item two tiers above your current level is to either be in a dungeon intended for characters well above your level, or to be given that item by a higher-level character. So while we cannot actually perform any sort of check on the item itself to determine its place of origin, the system as designed limits the ability to acquire an item that far above your current station.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: silentsteps on Dec 12, 2015, 10:41 AM
Post by: silentsteps on Dec 12, 2015, 10:41 AM
Ah, thanks for clarification. Had misunderstood so that you would be policing one tier above as well. Good to know that I can continue my mindless dungeon crawling. 
Fun to explore places.
Fun to explore places.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 11:22 AM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 11:22 AM
No, it was just something tossed out as an example. Part of this is to give people an opportunity to offer suggestions as to what they think would work better.
Part of the reason I brought that up is because I'm concerned that the scenario of "at-level group makes rare find" is very much the exception, and "higher level gives you higher tier item, or runs you through higher tier dungeon where those drops are normal" is far more common. This heavily subverts the rule, and it makes me wonder if there's any way we can maintain the former, and reduce/get rid of the latter.
This is partly where the lock on the higher level dungeons came in, because it's been our impression that a lot of the over-tier items were coming from the fact that higher level players were taking people on runs, and then giving them the loot. At one point in the past we thought it might be okay, but it was clearly getting far out of hand.
Part of the reason I brought that up is because I'm concerned that the scenario of "at-level group makes rare find" is very much the exception, and "higher level gives you higher tier item, or runs you through higher tier dungeon where those drops are normal" is far more common. This heavily subverts the rule, and it makes me wonder if there's any way we can maintain the former, and reduce/get rid of the latter.
This is partly where the lock on the higher level dungeons came in, because it's been our impression that a lot of the over-tier items were coming from the fact that higher level players were taking people on runs, and then giving them the loot. At one point in the past we thought it might be okay, but it was clearly getting far out of hand.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Dec 12, 2015, 11:30 AM
Post by: Deleted on Dec 12, 2015, 11:30 AM
Out of curiousity was 'the getting far out of hand' the exception or the rule?
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: trylobyte on Dec 12, 2015, 11:30 AM
Post by: trylobyte on Dec 12, 2015, 11:30 AM
The only chance I can see of realistically picking up an item two tiers above your level is pulling a blue item out of the goblin bolthole, which can be cleared by a group of determined level 3-4 players using readily available powergaming tricks (though by the time they finish they may cross into the level 5 range). And that almost requires you to specifically try and do that.
I have a theory as to why all this happens, but I don't have time to type it up before I need to head off somewhere. I'll post a long version later, but the short version is that this isn't really an issue of twinking items or powergaming so much as a sign of an in-game economic problem. There are too many purple and orange items that are too good to vendor but too bad to use (usually due to the items being situational or having very specific builds that want them) and it's entirely possible for a lower-level character to have enough gold to buy these items from a higher-level player at going market value. The selling player gets more money and the pleasing sensation of helping someone, and the lower-level player gains an item and the security of knowing they won't have to farm for it. It's a win-win for everything except server balance, and that's what makes it such a difficult issue to manage.
I have a theory as to why all this happens, but I don't have time to type it up before I need to head off somewhere. I'll post a long version later, but the short version is that this isn't really an issue of twinking items or powergaming so much as a sign of an in-game economic problem. There are too many purple and orange items that are too good to vendor but too bad to use (usually due to the items being situational or having very specific builds that want them) and it's entirely possible for a lower-level character to have enough gold to buy these items from a higher-level player at going market value. The selling player gets more money and the pleasing sensation of helping someone, and the lower-level player gains an item and the security of knowing they won't have to farm for it. It's a win-win for everything except server balance, and that's what makes it such a difficult issue to manage.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 12:53 PM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 12:53 PM
@kimimaro : If things "getting out of hand" was the exception, we'd try and talk to people on a case by case basis. No, it was far too widespread, unfortunately.
trylobyte: Every treasure chest has two tables, the one it normally rolls on, and the one it rolls on instead if it gets "100" on the first table. That doesn't mean it's rolling on the next tier up, necessarily, so you could still end up with the 'same' result, meaning that if the first has a chance to pull from the +2 weapon bucket, the '100+' tables could also come up with the +2 bucket, but it also has a chance to hit the +3 bucket maybe. And yes, there are tier 4 spots where you could see an epic drop, but the chance is really really crazy low.
trylobyte: Every treasure chest has two tables, the one it normally rolls on, and the one it rolls on instead if it gets "100" on the first table. That doesn't mean it's rolling on the next tier up, necessarily, so you could still end up with the 'same' result, meaning that if the first has a chance to pull from the +2 weapon bucket, the '100+' tables could also come up with the +2 bucket, but it also has a chance to hit the +3 bucket maybe. And yes, there are tier 4 spots where you could see an epic drop, but the chance is really really crazy low.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 12:58 PM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 12:58 PM
And yes - I dunno, maybe we should just tell people not to sell or give stuff to anyone of a lower tier, not just based on the item. Meaning that a level 20 shouldn't be selling a tier 3 item to a level 11, because even though that level 11 can easily get it, the level 20 is going to be positively swimming in tier 3 items, and it's much easier to get for them than it is for the level 11.
Maybe we also need to reduce non-item cash drops in higher end dungeons, though I don't think that's as much the problem. Maybe we need more high-end consumeables for 16/20+ PCs?
Maybe we also need to reduce non-item cash drops in higher end dungeons, though I don't think that's as much the problem. Maybe we need more high-end consumeables for 16/20+ PCs?
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 01:51 PM
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 01:51 PM
I am in full support of this decision.
I always saw a problem with RPG games (both online and PnP) where the rewards were too lenient. When gold, XP, powerful magic and gear was dished out recklessly or readily available than players quickly loose motivation to do anything. Outside of these, the storytelling part is the other big motivator for players, where they can really play their characters out and propel the characters' s stories meaningfully, however it usually requires a DM. DM presence is not an issue in PnP, but a NWN persistent world most possibly does not have the DM capacity to provide adequate coverage of this for all the playerbase. So it is usually in the best interest of any servers to keep the material motivations from above (XP, gold, magic, items) present as long as possible.
The trick is to balance it with the fun factor as being too restrictive on those material gains kills player motivation equally. I played a while on the infamous Escape from Underdark server, where for example even general +1 weapons were unavailable, the ones giving the +1 bonus only gave it against a certain enemy type. Although I had no problem with this, it is probably too much for the wider playerbase. As per my very subjective judgement/feeling, CD is about okay with the actual balance, maybe a little dial back would do good. A bit more prudence on enforcing the item limit restrictions and item availability (like this change about dungeon access) is one such a little dial back, so I am welcoming it.
I see two more points where things could be changed for a bit better:
1) Our beloved pawn shop owner, Liesel. She is the major source of gold for the PCs. Comparing the gold a PC can get as his share from chests and monster killing from a dungeon, and the share he receives from the selling of unnecessary loot, it is easily between 1:5 to 1:10 (e.g. 2k gold from the chests/monsters, 15-20k gold from the sold loot). IMHO she pays too good for the pawned stuff. I think it would be better if she was a much harder bargainer and the DC of Appraise skill check to get better prices from her would get significantly higher (also considering, that the Gloves of Appraisal with their +6 skill bonus to Appraise is quite available). It would also mean a benefit for characters who put some skill points on Appraise instead of the usually powerhouse Lore, Heal, plus Spellcraft for casters, sneaking skill for rouge-likes, encouraging more variety in future PCs.
1.1) As an addendum to above, Liesel should be more picky about what she buys. I saw many times Raven's Plume items in Liesel's inventory, which is a nonsense. Why would she buy such items? She also buys items with charge on full price even if there is only one charge left in it. I don't know if it could be scripted, but her paying progressively less for an almost drained item would make much sense.
2) Speaking of Raven's Plume, some of their items are just too good for their prices. I am thinking mainly of the Amnian card decks and the Turmish sweets. They make regular potions and scrolls totally obsolate, being cheaper, multiversal (the card decks) and having less weight. A serious bump in their prices (even getting it three times or more higher) is very due IMHO.
All of these are just my subjective opinions/feelings but hopefully giving some food for thought!
I always saw a problem with RPG games (both online and PnP) where the rewards were too lenient. When gold, XP, powerful magic and gear was dished out recklessly or readily available than players quickly loose motivation to do anything. Outside of these, the storytelling part is the other big motivator for players, where they can really play their characters out and propel the characters' s stories meaningfully, however it usually requires a DM. DM presence is not an issue in PnP, but a NWN persistent world most possibly does not have the DM capacity to provide adequate coverage of this for all the playerbase. So it is usually in the best interest of any servers to keep the material motivations from above (XP, gold, magic, items) present as long as possible.
The trick is to balance it with the fun factor as being too restrictive on those material gains kills player motivation equally. I played a while on the infamous Escape from Underdark server, where for example even general +1 weapons were unavailable, the ones giving the +1 bonus only gave it against a certain enemy type. Although I had no problem with this, it is probably too much for the wider playerbase. As per my very subjective judgement/feeling, CD is about okay with the actual balance, maybe a little dial back would do good. A bit more prudence on enforcing the item limit restrictions and item availability (like this change about dungeon access) is one such a little dial back, so I am welcoming it.
I see two more points where things could be changed for a bit better:
1) Our beloved pawn shop owner, Liesel. She is the major source of gold for the PCs. Comparing the gold a PC can get as his share from chests and monster killing from a dungeon, and the share he receives from the selling of unnecessary loot, it is easily between 1:5 to 1:10 (e.g. 2k gold from the chests/monsters, 15-20k gold from the sold loot). IMHO she pays too good for the pawned stuff. I think it would be better if she was a much harder bargainer and the DC of Appraise skill check to get better prices from her would get significantly higher (also considering, that the Gloves of Appraisal with their +6 skill bonus to Appraise is quite available). It would also mean a benefit for characters who put some skill points on Appraise instead of the usually powerhouse Lore, Heal, plus Spellcraft for casters, sneaking skill for rouge-likes, encouraging more variety in future PCs.
1.1) As an addendum to above, Liesel should be more picky about what she buys. I saw many times Raven's Plume items in Liesel's inventory, which is a nonsense. Why would she buy such items? She also buys items with charge on full price even if there is only one charge left in it. I don't know if it could be scripted, but her paying progressively less for an almost drained item would make much sense.
2) Speaking of Raven's Plume, some of their items are just too good for their prices. I am thinking mainly of the Amnian card decks and the Turmish sweets. They make regular potions and scrolls totally obsolate, being cheaper, multiversal (the card decks) and having less weight. A serious bump in their prices (even getting it three times or more higher) is very due IMHO.
All of these are just my subjective opinions/feelings but hopefully giving some food for thought!
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 02:02 PM
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 02:02 PM
Maybe we also need to reduce non-item cash drops in higher end dungeons, though I don't think that's as much the problem. Maybe we need more high-end consumeables for 16/20+ PCs?
Outright ban of trading between PCs is not a good idea IMHO. The way it not worked when players were forbidden to accompany much lower lvl PCs to higher lvl dungeons, it will not work on this either. As yourself wrote earlier FireWraith, you can't police and Big Brother over the players all the time.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: trylobyte on Dec 12, 2015, 02:14 PM
Post by: trylobyte on Dec 12, 2015, 02:14 PM
Two suggestions I'd make regarding the current system, to hopefully ease the burden.
I think hard level caps on dungeons hurt some classes more than others. Restricting every class by the same standard doesn't make sense for some classes. Rogues and Bards, especially, can be far more effective than their raw level would suggest - There is little functional difference between a level 15 bard and a level 18 bard except that the level 18 bard can cast Mass Haste a few times, especially since Bard Song (the main reason to go pure bard) essentially stops scaling at level 16. Even with most full BAB classes there's little difference between level 16 and 18 except a feat. If you're going to cap dungeon entry, I would lighten the lowest-level restriction to line up with the next-highest gear tier (so dungeons that can drop purples require blue tier players, dungeons that can drop oranges require purple tier players). This would preserve your intention of restricting people from pulling loot that's too good but would also make more sense.
I would also encourage reducing the number of equipment items that come from dungeons while increasing consumables, crafting components, gold, and gems. Coming home from a gnoll run with 4 pages of gear, including a full page of purples and a pair of oranges, was normal for a 'lucky' run when I ran the place a lot. This results in a flooded market oversaturated with gear and all but eliminates the thrill of finally getting the perfect item, since odds are if you don't find it you can buy it from a higher-level player who's pulling several pages of items per dungeon or from Hawk's dozen-page inventory. More to the point with Hawk, her prices stop being meaningful after about level 11 or so for all but the most consumable-heavy classes, since even the average player will have a way to pull in hundreds of thousands of gold a week while Hawk's price for a Tier 4 purple weapon is a mere 50-60K. Adding consumables would also reduce the reliance many characters have on Use Magic Device and scrolls, and could also allow for the inclusion of new, unusual effects! This would reduce the overall availability of high-end equipment and thus increase its value. The downside to this, of course, is that having more consumables means more buffs are more widely available.
I think hard level caps on dungeons hurt some classes more than others. Restricting every class by the same standard doesn't make sense for some classes. Rogues and Bards, especially, can be far more effective than their raw level would suggest - There is little functional difference between a level 15 bard and a level 18 bard except that the level 18 bard can cast Mass Haste a few times, especially since Bard Song (the main reason to go pure bard) essentially stops scaling at level 16. Even with most full BAB classes there's little difference between level 16 and 18 except a feat. If you're going to cap dungeon entry, I would lighten the lowest-level restriction to line up with the next-highest gear tier (so dungeons that can drop purples require blue tier players, dungeons that can drop oranges require purple tier players). This would preserve your intention of restricting people from pulling loot that's too good but would also make more sense.
I would also encourage reducing the number of equipment items that come from dungeons while increasing consumables, crafting components, gold, and gems. Coming home from a gnoll run with 4 pages of gear, including a full page of purples and a pair of oranges, was normal for a 'lucky' run when I ran the place a lot. This results in a flooded market oversaturated with gear and all but eliminates the thrill of finally getting the perfect item, since odds are if you don't find it you can buy it from a higher-level player who's pulling several pages of items per dungeon or from Hawk's dozen-page inventory. More to the point with Hawk, her prices stop being meaningful after about level 11 or so for all but the most consumable-heavy classes, since even the average player will have a way to pull in hundreds of thousands of gold a week while Hawk's price for a Tier 4 purple weapon is a mere 50-60K. Adding consumables would also reduce the reliance many characters have on Use Magic Device and scrolls, and could also allow for the inclusion of new, unusual effects! This would reduce the overall availability of high-end equipment and thus increase its value. The downside to this, of course, is that having more consumables means more buffs are more widely available.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 02:21 PM
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 02:21 PM
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 02:30 PM
Post by: Mystic Warden on Dec 12, 2015, 02:30 PM
One more idea: with the component based crafting system slowly getting fully implemented, the policy of crafted item < looted item should be re-visited. Why?
If I wish for a specific item for my PC, than I need to be lucky only once to get it via loot drop. If I have to get it made, I need to be lucky once for each of its component plus find and agree with somebody to make the item for me! It is harder and takes longer time to get that given item through crafting and this is in line with the actual suggestion to make items a bit more difficult to be available.
Orange level items could remain non-craftable, but for purple and below it could work nicely.
If I wish for a specific item for my PC, than I need to be lucky only once to get it via loot drop. If I have to get it made, I need to be lucky once for each of its component plus find and agree with somebody to make the item for me! It is harder and takes longer time to get that given item through crafting and this is in line with the actual suggestion to make items a bit more difficult to be available.
Orange level items could remain non-craftable, but for purple and below it could work nicely.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: bracethyself on Dec 12, 2015, 02:51 PM
Post by: bracethyself on Dec 12, 2015, 02:51 PM
A couple of quick thoughts:
1) When you implement a new system don't rush to tweak it, give it a few months then see what shakes out. Constant and rapid tweaks to these systems on PWs leave you with tangled balls of mess and 'tweak' fatigue. The implementation seems to favor the conservative so leave it for a bit and see what happens.
2) In favor of the dungeon locks and item tiers as they are. The instances where someone is accidentally excluded just outside the dungeon because the group didn't realize they were lower level are not high in number. This will decrease as the system is more fully circulated. True that due to build, class mix, etc. some characters are more powerful and could maybe float up two tiers to hunt, I haven't got the impression that is something that this server wants to encourage.
3) Agree with reducing the number of permanent useful items and replacing them with consumables, crafting components, miscellaneous treasure (art objects, etc.).
4) A few higher level quests (or even dungeons really) could be created that require the collection of a few certain items (10 diamonds say or a set of three specific art objects) in order to get access to the quest or dungeon. i.e. Crusty old tale spinner says: I can tell ye how to access the old tower but I want three rubies for it. Could be keyed to specific books or maps (which could be both sold and dropped in loot). This makes the random treasure bits potentially more valuable and makes PCs potentially wince a bit everytime they sell something not knowing whether or not it might be usable later on. Complicated, but could not only add some fun to misc treasure but some flavor as well.
1) When you implement a new system don't rush to tweak it, give it a few months then see what shakes out. Constant and rapid tweaks to these systems on PWs leave you with tangled balls of mess and 'tweak' fatigue. The implementation seems to favor the conservative so leave it for a bit and see what happens.
2) In favor of the dungeon locks and item tiers as they are. The instances where someone is accidentally excluded just outside the dungeon because the group didn't realize they were lower level are not high in number. This will decrease as the system is more fully circulated. True that due to build, class mix, etc. some characters are more powerful and could maybe float up two tiers to hunt, I haven't got the impression that is something that this server wants to encourage.
3) Agree with reducing the number of permanent useful items and replacing them with consumables, crafting components, miscellaneous treasure (art objects, etc.).
4) A few higher level quests (or even dungeons really) could be created that require the collection of a few certain items (10 diamonds say or a set of three specific art objects) in order to get access to the quest or dungeon. i.e. Crusty old tale spinner says: I can tell ye how to access the old tower but I want three rubies for it. Could be keyed to specific books or maps (which could be both sold and dropped in loot). This makes the random treasure bits potentially more valuable and makes PCs potentially wince a bit everytime they sell something not knowing whether or not it might be usable later on. Complicated, but could not only add some fun to misc treasure but some flavor as well.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: FaeFae on Dec 12, 2015, 04:14 PM
Post by: FaeFae on Dec 12, 2015, 04:14 PM
a) As someone who does not adventure that much I must say I really like the variety of items that come from dungeons and enjoy the quantity that will come from, say, a gnoll run. I see lots of things I never saw before and I am excited through the whole ID process. It might not be as enthralling to the more veteran players, but I absolutely love the prospects and would miss if some of it went away without ever seeing it. I do originate from a server where you could go through the entire epic loot table and know what everything was without IDing it, just at a glance from lack of variety.
b) The lower end of the dungeon limitation feels slightly too high... by perhaps two or so levels?
c) It feels like the current restriction on items doesn't actually solve the problem since you need only be level 11 to hold epic items if it's two above, which is less than a month of play on a character. Having it one tier above instead allows people to hold onto their occasional rare drop, and to go along with Eldritch pieces at 16+. That seems a lot more in line with the intentions over the present two tier allowance.
Edit: I'd misread the initial patchnotes. 
b) The lower end of the dungeon limitation feels slightly too high... by perhaps two or so levels?
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edge on Dec 12, 2015, 04:22 PM
Post by: Edge on Dec 12, 2015, 04:22 PM
... one tier above IS what it currently is.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 04:33 PM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 12, 2015, 04:33 PM
Right. You can carry items that are one tier above. You can't carry something 2 tiers up.
And yes, we were seeing characters that were under 11th with Tier 4 items.
And yes, we were seeing characters that were under 11th with Tier 4 items.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Dec 12, 2015, 09:15 PM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Dec 12, 2015, 09:15 PM
I'd be a fan of a wider variety of consumables on the higher end, with respectably inflated costs. If you don't make a lot of profitable runs, healing vials really put a hit in your wallet when you've got to restock. Some of the more valuable buffs (at a price) would be nice, especially with the prevalence of dispells (and some that are unavoidable, unremovable because Vincent wants us to die horribly) as the go-to "nerf-adventurer right now" tactic.
I'd concur with moving at least a few of the lower-end "Epic Dungeons" down to 16. It would stick with not holding anything one tier over and if I see a vanilla +5 item with no bonuses, I'd rather pass and keep my fluffed-out tier 4. I don't know what the T5 loot tables look like right now, so maybe the more fun stuff drops more often or there's just more of it.
I don't think item drop frequency needs to be nerfed. As more items get added to the loot table (and I still have a few I was supposed to send to Vince forever ago), the drop rate of specific items lowers since there's now more numbers on the table to pick from. Therefore, getting that specific drop that you want/need is a lot less likely.
I'd concur with moving at least a few of the lower-end "Epic Dungeons" down to 16. It would stick with not holding anything one tier over and if I see a vanilla +5 item with no bonuses, I'd rather pass and keep my fluffed-out tier 4. I don't know what the T5 loot tables look like right now, so maybe the more fun stuff drops more often or there's just more of it.
I don't think item drop frequency needs to be nerfed. As more items get added to the loot table (and I still have a few I was supposed to send to Vince forever ago), the drop rate of specific items lowers since there's now more numbers on the table to pick from. Therefore, getting that specific drop that you want/need is a lot less likely.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: whitespirit on Dec 13, 2015, 09:34 AM
Post by: whitespirit on Dec 13, 2015, 09:34 AM
Umm.. this may be a little bit off topic but I wanted to simply thank everyone for being so helpful, constructive and non-negative. thank you!!!
thank you!!!
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Misty on Dec 13, 2015, 02:42 PM
Post by: Misty on Dec 13, 2015, 02:42 PM
I would like to suggest perhaps a few of the dungeons be moved from the level required area, or at least lowered in their level required.
Pointedly a pair that are simply Not on the same level as the other higher level dungeons in their current state.
Deep Old Woods Cave (Semberholme) lvl: 15-18
Twilight's Edge Tower (Shadows, Dead Magic) lvl: 15-20
They're both rated in the same range as say, Wyvernspur Crypt or Deepgrave which is.. Purely laughable. Perhaps they could be adjusted with their future rebuilds to actually be more along other dungeons of their level, but for now it seems like they'd benefit from a lower threshold to enter. ..So people might, actually go there when they could benefit from it.
Just some thoughts! Most of the other places seem about right level wise, those were just two glaring oddity's to me.
Pointedly a pair that are simply Not on the same level as the other higher level dungeons in their current state.
Deep Old Woods Cave (Semberholme) lvl: 15-18
Twilight's Edge Tower (Shadows, Dead Magic) lvl: 15-20
They're both rated in the same range as say, Wyvernspur Crypt or Deepgrave which is.. Purely laughable. Perhaps they could be adjusted with their future rebuilds to actually be more along other dungeons of their level, but for now it seems like they'd benefit from a lower threshold to enter. ..So people might, actually go there when they could benefit from it.
Just some thoughts! Most of the other places seem about right level wise, those were just two glaring oddity's to me.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Dec 13, 2015, 04:40 PM
Post by: Deleted on Dec 13, 2015, 04:40 PM
The loot still pulls from the same chests as Wyvernspur, so the whole dungeons need overhauling.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Darvins on Dec 13, 2015, 06:19 PM
Post by: Darvins on Dec 13, 2015, 06:19 PM
Maybe we also need to reduce non-item cash drops in higher end dungeons, though I don't think that's as much the problem. Maybe we need more high-end consumeables for 16/20+ PCs?
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: silentsteps on Dec 17, 2015, 12:09 PM
Post by: silentsteps on Dec 17, 2015, 12:09 PM
Please keep the sales limits. I don't want expansive economy where 20 million means nothing. Gold should have a meaning and purpose, it should be something. IF you remove or increase limits, suddenly we have greater amoutn of millionaires walking around, in reality, whos gold means nothing. I would be supporting even more stricter gold sales limits to increase the actual power of gold in the realms.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 17, 2015, 01:24 PM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Dec 17, 2015, 01:24 PM
If anything, I think we'd like to reduce the amount of gold in circulation, not increase it, especially at high levels. Low levels seem to work okay in terms of consumable use, but at high levels it can get out of sync.
One thought was to possibly put in a system where people could break down/disenchant/shatter/etc existing magical items of a certain tier, for a chance at getting (random) enchanting shards. This would change a number of dynamics though, and we'd have to look at it carefully. (For one, probably would mean a massive decrease in T3/T4+ items available in Hawk's. For two, might also mean a massive increase in the presence or use of crafted gear.)
One thought was to possibly put in a system where people could break down/disenchant/shatter/etc existing magical items of a certain tier, for a chance at getting (random) enchanting shards. This would change a number of dynamics though, and we'd have to look at it carefully. (For one, probably would mean a massive decrease in T3/T4+ items available in Hawk's. For two, might also mean a massive increase in the presence or use of crafted gear.)
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edwardfalcona on Dec 18, 2015, 09:05 AM
Post by: Edwardfalcona on Dec 18, 2015, 09:05 AM
Maybe an epic level vendor that's a big gold sink. Like once a reset it has a few oranges and has high level consumables.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edwardfalcona on Dec 18, 2015, 10:04 AM
Post by: Edwardfalcona on Dec 18, 2015, 10:04 AM
Oh! I think I read a grind up option could work like border lands, where you toss in three of the same color and pray you get a better one
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: drakaden on Dec 18, 2015, 10:04 AM
Post by: drakaden on Dec 18, 2015, 10:04 AM
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Nokteronoth on Dec 18, 2015, 02:49 PM
Post by: Nokteronoth on Dec 18, 2015, 02:49 PM
The 'failure rate' bit is something that Arelith did that annoyed the everloving shit out of me, because you could spend a few hours/days working on high level crafting, only for a 1% chance that it'd turn out right and you're down 100,000+ gold each enchanting stage (our of 4/5) and several hours, if not days, worth of crafting points and two or three weeks worth of casual XP farming. At least back when I played there years and years ago.
I haven't commented yet on this thread because I'm not sure what I think about gating and all. My first reaction is that I don't like it, but I'm still working out the why and trying to be constructive with any criticism. (An initial thought is that the...locks on dungeons aren't exactly balanced, considering the Twilight's Edge tower doesn't have nearly the same challenge as anything else marked its level unless you haven't been playing NWN long at all. But I've gone over that in my review of the dungeon.)
I'll come back to this when I have something more positive and constructive.
~BR
I haven't commented yet on this thread because I'm not sure what I think about gating and all. My first reaction is that I don't like it, but I'm still working out the why and trying to be constructive with any criticism. (An initial thought is that the...locks on dungeons aren't exactly balanced, considering the Twilight's Edge tower doesn't have nearly the same challenge as anything else marked its level unless you haven't been playing NWN long at all. But I've gone over that in my review of the dungeon.)
I'll come back to this when I have something more positive and constructive.
~BR
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Dec 18, 2015, 05:08 PM
Post by: Deleted on Dec 18, 2015, 05:08 PM
I think having a high-level vendor with rare, single-use items, is an awesome idea. Put it down in Sakkors. Or in Gnolls. Or in the Frost Giants. Or put it in the Serpent with a level check, where it won't talk to you if you're below level XX.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: thorien on Dec 19, 2015, 07:47 AM
Post by: thorien on Dec 19, 2015, 07:47 AM
That sounds great!
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: trylobyte on Dec 19, 2015, 11:24 AM
Post by: trylobyte on Dec 19, 2015, 11:24 AM
Dec 18, 2015 17:08:21 GMT -5 @belladonna said:
I think having a high-level vendor with rare, single-use items, is an awesome idea. Put it down in Sakkors. Or in Gnolls. Or in the Frost Giants. Or put it in the Serpent with a level check, where it won't talk to you if you're below level XX.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Dec 19, 2015, 11:25 AM
Post by: Deleted on Dec 19, 2015, 11:25 AM
I like that.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Dismus on Dec 19, 2015, 01:00 PM
Post by: Dismus on Dec 19, 2015, 01:00 PM
That would be awesome.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Vincent07 on Dec 19, 2015, 05:05 PM
Post by: Vincent07 on Dec 19, 2015, 05:05 PM
Personally I'm not in favor of more consumable items with spell casts on them. It just further trivializes a need for actual casters.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 02, 2016, 01:24 PM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 02, 2016, 01:24 PM
While I understand keeping extra-high level items out of lowbies' hands. There's still some weak links at the merchants.
Anyone can sell anything at a particular tier shop, so when, for example, a green tier person is carrying a blue item, they can sell it in the green tier shop.
This means that anyone who shops at that tier sees items they can't yet use, and those who -could use said item can't access it to purchase it. There were a ton of blue tier items in the green shop the other day. No less than three of which I wanted on Naleeah, who opens the blue tier shop. Sadly, I had no access to them. And asking someone else to buy it with a green tier PC to resell it to mine feels... metagamish.
Further, there are legitimate times a higher tier PC might want a lower tier item. Some of the green tier gear is perfectly suitable for a blue tier PC when there's a lack of something higher and more suitable, but you can't access the lower gear shop, yet again.
What I would suggest, is that there be a dialog added to the conversation of every "buyer" shopkeeper, to allow for higher level PCs to access lower level shops. So when a 11-15 PC talks to Hawk, for example, it gives the option: "Which shop would you like to browse?" 1. lower tier shop, 2. lower-mid tier shop, 3. upper-mid tier shop. This would allow the higher level PC to access the items from those shops, be it a lower tier item, or one that's actually at their tier.
Anyone can sell anything at a particular tier shop, so when, for example, a green tier person is carrying a blue item, they can sell it in the green tier shop.
This means that anyone who shops at that tier sees items they can't yet use, and those who -could use said item can't access it to purchase it. There were a ton of blue tier items in the green shop the other day. No less than three of which I wanted on Naleeah, who opens the blue tier shop. Sadly, I had no access to them. And asking someone else to buy it with a green tier PC to resell it to mine feels... metagamish.
Further, there are legitimate times a higher tier PC might want a lower tier item. Some of the green tier gear is perfectly suitable for a blue tier PC when there's a lack of something higher and more suitable, but you can't access the lower gear shop, yet again.
What I would suggest, is that there be a dialog added to the conversation of every "buyer" shopkeeper, to allow for higher level PCs to access lower level shops. So when a 11-15 PC talks to Hawk, for example, it gives the option: "Which shop would you like to browse?" 1. lower tier shop, 2. lower-mid tier shop, 3. upper-mid tier shop. This would allow the higher level PC to access the items from those shops, be it a lower tier item, or one that's actually at their tier.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: drakaden on Jan 02, 2016, 07:10 PM
Post by: drakaden on Jan 02, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jan 2, 2016 13:24:36 GMT -5 @misplacedmaskarran said:
While I understand keeping extra-high level items out of lowbies' hands. There's still some weak links at the merchants.Anyone can sell anything at a particular tier shop, so when, for example, a green tier person is carrying a blue item, they can sell it in the green tier shop.
This means that anyone who shops at that tier sees items they can't yet use, and those who -could use said item can't access it to purchase it. There were a ton of blue tier items in the green shop the other day. No less than three of which I wanted on Naleeah, who opens the blue tier shop. Sadly, I had no access to them. And asking someone else to buy it with a green tier PC to resell it to mine feels... metagamish.
Further, there are legitimate times a higher tier PC might want a lower tier item. Some of the green tier gear is perfectly suitable for a blue tier PC when there's a lack of something higher and more suitable, but you can't access the lower gear shop, yet again.
What I would suggest, is that there be a dialog added to the conversation of every "buyer" shopkeeper, to allow for higher level PCs to access lower level shops. So when a 11-15 PC talks to Hawk, for example, it gives the option: "Which shop would you like to browse?" 1. lower tier shop, 2. lower-mid tier shop, 3. upper-mid tier shop. This would allow the higher level PC to access the items from those shops, be it a lower tier item, or one that's actually at their tier.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: ladybug on Jan 02, 2016, 07:16 PM
Post by: ladybug on Jan 02, 2016, 07:16 PM
Gotta be honest. This looks like a lot of work that would make it all the easier for a handful of epic characters with more money than they know what to do with to buy all decent loot from the lower stores to give out at their discretion, thus encouraging packrat behavior that contributes greatly to the server's lag.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edge on Jan 02, 2016, 07:42 PM
Post by: Edge on Jan 02, 2016, 07:42 PM
Exactly what Lady said, yes.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 02, 2016, 07:51 PM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 02, 2016, 07:51 PM
We have the tier system in place for a reason. At this time, we will not be changing that.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Vincent07 on Jan 02, 2016, 07:55 PM
Post by: Vincent07 on Jan 02, 2016, 07:55 PM
Pretty much. Allowing higher levels to have access to the lower tiers violates the entire purpose of the system.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Darvins on Jan 11, 2016, 05:27 PM
Post by: Darvins on Jan 11, 2016, 05:27 PM
One thought was to possibly put in a system where people could break down/disenchant/shatter/etc existing magical items of a certain tier, for a chance at getting (random) enchanting shards. This would change a number of dynamics though, and we'd have to look at it carefully. (For one, probably would mean a massive decrease in T3/T4+ items available in Hawk's. For two, might also mean a massive increase in the presence or use of crafted gear.)
One thing through it's a side point I dislike about the cash limits, is it renders Appraise a very weak skill to begin with well weaker. Why invest points in Appraise if the items you sell hit the cap? At some point the guy with no Appraise can sell a lot of items for the exact same price as the person with 15 points of appraise. This seems... well unfair.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Vincent07 on Jan 11, 2016, 09:01 PM
Post by: Vincent07 on Jan 11, 2016, 09:01 PM
The max buy price is there as a limit to GP gain. Appraise does make quite a difference, even with a 15k limit per item. Some items will hit that limit sooner than others.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edge on Jan 11, 2016, 09:48 PM
Post by: Edge on Jan 11, 2016, 09:48 PM
Yeah maybe you haven't been traveling with people who have their Appraise maxed, but there is a very noticeable difference in profits between a group with someone like that and a group without. Sure, if everything you get sells for gold-cap there won't be much, but you're never going to get a loot run where everything does. There'll always be something that doesn't go for nearly that much, and the Appraise-based sway of selling those can make a great deal of difference between the final amounts.
"Weak" is definitely not what I'd call Appraise as a skill. "Limited" might be more appropriate - as it only really comes up in selling/buying things from shops and on extremely rare occasions in DM events - but by mid levels definitely NOT "Weak".
"Weak" is definitely not what I'd call Appraise as a skill. "Limited" might be more appropriate - as it only really comes up in selling/buying things from shops and on extremely rare occasions in DM events - but by mid levels definitely NOT "Weak".
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: foo on Jan 12, 2016, 05:32 PM
Post by: foo on Jan 12, 2016, 05:32 PM
I really would also like to +1 the argument that we should be getting less T1 and mundaine items and more crafting components, and smaller 'valuable' items, since the inventory management is hellacious. Ideally I'd like to have no more than one or maybe two tabs of loot. You can keep the valuable items weight scaled so a few are heavy, worth a lot and take up a large ammount of space, and some are light, worth little, and take up less space. but generally it would be nice to have fewer useless items.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Yaldabaoth on Jan 12, 2016, 10:45 PM
Post by: Yaldabaoth on Jan 12, 2016, 10:45 PM
Certain that I am missing something, but why is it a problem if people have gear above their pc's level? The items are restricted by use according to tier already. If a level 3 gets hold of a tier 4 item, they can't use it anyway. This isn't an attempt to be snarky, I just want to know what the actual issue is.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Nokteronoth on Jan 12, 2016, 10:52 PM
Post by: Nokteronoth on Jan 12, 2016, 10:52 PM
The admins don't want lower levels to have people gathering items for them. Say, a level 8 has a good friend that will give them all the tier 4 purple items they could want, and they just hold onto it till the day they turn 16 where they are instantly fully geared and don't have a reason to go dungeon.
~BR
~BR
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Jan 13, 2016, 08:18 AM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Jan 13, 2016, 08:18 AM
The item level minimums are just that - minimums. They exist because the system allows for some random chance, because we want you to be able to get that "oh, holy ****" moment when something more powerful than usual drops for you (which can happen, but it's like a 1 in 10000+ chance). This is why the system allows you to have/hold stuff of higher level than you can use.
We don't want you to be already kitted out with gear was given to you, such that you've already gained everything you ought to be looking for at a given level range. If you've already got full T3 the moment you hit 11, you have nothing new to search for except T4+. And if you then wind up with a full set of T4 before you hit 16, you have nothing new to look for except T5, and there's nothing else beyond that - nor will there be.
The system is set up to allow for some luck. What it's not set up for is higher level characters loading you up with gear.
We don't want you to be already kitted out with gear was given to you, such that you've already gained everything you ought to be looking for at a given level range. If you've already got full T3 the moment you hit 11, you have nothing new to search for except T4+. And if you then wind up with a full set of T4 before you hit 16, you have nothing new to look for except T5, and there's nothing else beyond that - nor will there be.
The system is set up to allow for some luck. What it's not set up for is higher level characters loading you up with gear.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Mystic Warden on Jan 13, 2016, 10:47 AM
Post by: Mystic Warden on Jan 13, 2016, 10:47 AM
The easiest would be to remove that minuscule mathematical chance from the loot tables to get a higher tier item than making it impossible for all characters to put anything higher tier than he is into his inventory. Wham, whole problem solved, including the loading up by higher lvl friends.
Is that teeny little 1:10000+ chance worth to keep up a more complicated system and rulings with all the hassles? IMHO not, especially considering that all the lovely staff here (admins, DMs, builders, scripters, etc.) are neck deep in things to do with much higher priority than this.
Is that teeny little 1:10000+ chance worth to keep up a more complicated system and rulings with all the hassles? IMHO not, especially considering that all the lovely staff here (admins, DMs, builders, scripters, etc.) are neck deep in things to do with much higher priority than this.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 02:07 AM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 02:07 AM
If I could, I'd like to make a comment about the recent putting of gates for access to certain "level" dungeons, and I'm saying this from a perspective of a fairly newcomer to the server, who fell in love with it rather quickly.
While I understand the rationale and logic for putting the gates in place, I question the spirit of it. This is a roleplay server, and it encourages roleplay. Even our level progression is mediated with caps and XP over time to encourage this.
I don't want to go to a higher level area because I want to grind faster. I can't anyway. I have to wait those X days of ticks before I'll level whether I grind my level 12 PC in the orc cave, or with the gnolls.
I don't want to go to a higher level area to get higher level gear. I can't wear it anyway, or even carry it if it's two tiers higher than me.
I want to go to a high level area because by ROLEPLAY — organic, active ROLEPLAY with the server at large — my PC has knit meaningfully into a group of PCs who are 3-5 levels higher than mine. All of said group can go out and do stuff that I cannot. To have to fall back and stay behind, when they want to go out and quest, adventure, etc. is an artificial limitation on my ability to roleplay with my character's peers.
No, I don't want to re-knit with a group that's lower level just for the sake of having "grinding buddies." That's contrived RP, which I don't do, and is actually even metagame-ish, and I like my PC's story as it's evolved on its own.
I fail to see the reasoning for locking areas away from a character based on level, when the supposed rationale for it - gear and XP, is already mediated mechanically by other, effective means.
I used to not even care that it took days worth of fairy ticks just to get the XP to gain a level. I actually -liked that level gain is mediated.
Now, it's a grueling ordeal, because it's just that much longer I have to go before I get to RP with the other characters in my character's story without artificial interruption. Meanwhile, they gain XP and levels too, which means it's that much longer.
That's my perspective on it.
While I understand the rationale and logic for putting the gates in place, I question the spirit of it. This is a roleplay server, and it encourages roleplay. Even our level progression is mediated with caps and XP over time to encourage this.
I don't want to go to a higher level area because I want to grind faster. I can't anyway. I have to wait those X days of ticks before I'll level whether I grind my level 12 PC in the orc cave, or with the gnolls.
I don't want to go to a higher level area to get higher level gear. I can't wear it anyway, or even carry it if it's two tiers higher than me.
I want to go to a high level area because by ROLEPLAY — organic, active ROLEPLAY with the server at large — my PC has knit meaningfully into a group of PCs who are 3-5 levels higher than mine. All of said group can go out and do stuff that I cannot. To have to fall back and stay behind, when they want to go out and quest, adventure, etc. is an artificial limitation on my ability to roleplay with my character's peers.
No, I don't want to re-knit with a group that's lower level just for the sake of having "grinding buddies." That's contrived RP, which I don't do, and is actually even metagame-ish, and I like my PC's story as it's evolved on its own.
I fail to see the reasoning for locking areas away from a character based on level, when the supposed rationale for it - gear and XP, is already mediated mechanically by other, effective means.
I used to not even care that it took days worth of fairy ticks just to get the XP to gain a level. I actually -liked that level gain is mediated.
Now, it's a grueling ordeal, because it's just that much longer I have to go before I get to RP with the other characters in my character's story without artificial interruption. Meanwhile, they gain XP and levels too, which means it's that much longer.
That's my perspective on it.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Jan 15, 2016, 08:18 AM
Post by: Garage Trashcan on Jan 15, 2016, 08:18 AM
Jan 15, 2016 2:07:28 GMT -5 @misplacedmaskarran said:
If I could, I'd like to make a comment about the recent putting of gates for access to certain "level" dungeons, and I'm saying this from a perspective of a fairly newcomer to the server, who fell in love with it rather quickly.While I understand the rationale and logic for putting the gates in place, I question the spirit of it. This is a roleplay server, and it encourages roleplay. Even our level progression is mediated with caps and XP over time to encourage this.
I don't want to go to a higher level area because I want to grind faster. I can't anyway. I have to wait those X days of ticks before I'll level whether I grind my level 12 PC in the orc cave, or with the gnolls.
I don't want to go to a higher level area to get higher level gear. I can't wear it anyway, or even carry it if it's two tiers higher than me.
I want to go to a high level area because by ROLEPLAY — organic, active ROLEPLAY with the server at large — my PC has knit meaningfully into a group of PCs who are 3-5 levels higher than mine. All of said group can go out and do stuff that I cannot. To have to fall back and stay behind, when they want to go out and quest, adventure, etc. is an artificial limitation on my ability to roleplay with my character's peers.
No, I don't want to re-knit with a group that's lower level just for the sake of having "grinding buddies." That's contrived RP, which I don't do, and is actually even metagame-ish, and I like my PC's story as it's evolved on its own.
I fail to see the reasoning for locking areas away from a character based on level, when the supposed rationale for it - gear and XP, is already mediated mechanically by other, effective means.
I used to not even care that it took days worth of fairy ticks just to get the XP to gain a level. I actually -liked that level gain is mediated.
Now, it's a grueling ordeal, because it's just that much longer I have to go before I get to RP with the other characters in my character's story without artificial interruption. Meanwhile, they gain XP and levels too, which means it's that much longer.
That's my perspective on it.
The problem is that it was commonplace for people to get carried through these areas and given loot or an absurdly inappropriate amount of gold at the end. As mentioned, they don't want people fully gearing up before they're even at the tier. The sad reality is that now if your mid-level PC is friends with high levels or epics, your only adventuring option is to faceroll through some mid-level or lower-end high-level dungeon. But this is the price we pay for balance.
It's also worth noting that the level restrictions are still in a "beta" phase, as the admins have mentioned and that they're subject to change. We may see them loosening up a little bit, but there's no guarantee of that.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 11:32 AM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 11:32 AM
Epic areas are unlikely to ever be unlocked below level 18. The rest are still open for review.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 02:12 PM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 02:12 PM
My level 12 pcs would likely be one-shot in an epic level area as it is.
Areas below that, however. Those with level 14 and 15 locks, is my level 12 being there really that unbalancing, or abusing in some way? When is a 2 or 3 level deficit upsetting to the game or enjoyment of other players? For that matter, if I've managed to make some bad ass level 8 and can survive ogres, and I'm contributing to RP and the party in general by being there, why not? Again, it's a roleplay server, not an action server.
I'm also not the sort to let myself be dragged around and sheltered from the danger. Anyone who's adventured with my squishy Sharessan can attest she dives into the fray with both blades, singing. While there may be "common" instances of lowbies being cradled along, I'm going to venture that it's the exception, not the rule.
Between four admins and an active enthusiastic DM base, this server has more caretakers than most nwn servers still out there. To deal with those who want to abuse the systems in the game, snoop and slap is the better mechanic, better than any system you could code.
Areas below that, however. Those with level 14 and 15 locks, is my level 12 being there really that unbalancing, or abusing in some way? When is a 2 or 3 level deficit upsetting to the game or enjoyment of other players? For that matter, if I've managed to make some bad ass level 8 and can survive ogres, and I'm contributing to RP and the party in general by being there, why not? Again, it's a roleplay server, not an action server.
I'm also not the sort to let myself be dragged around and sheltered from the danger. Anyone who's adventured with my squishy Sharessan can attest she dives into the fray with both blades, singing. While there may be "common" instances of lowbies being cradled along, I'm going to venture that it's the exception, not the rule.
Between four admins and an active enthusiastic DM base, this server has more caretakers than most nwn servers still out there. To deal with those who want to abuse the systems in the game, snoop and slap is the better mechanic, better than any system you could code.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edge on Jan 15, 2016, 02:28 PM
Post by: Edge on Jan 15, 2016, 02:28 PM
Between four admins and an active enthusiastic DM base, this server has more caretakers than most nwn servers still out there. To deal with those who want to abuse the systems in the game, snoop and slap is the better mechanic, better than any system you could code.
For ten years, we did.
A major part of the reason these locks are in place is because we've gotten very tired of having to pull people aside to tell them to stop, gotten even more tired of announcements on the forums being overlooked or ignored, and because it's become more and more commonplace over the past six months or so.
The same reason we ended up putting in the color-codes for items a couple years past, and around the same time we locked down dungeons we added the "cannot pick up items two tiers above your current level" code.
Trust me, I would LOVE to be able to leave things be and handle all these problems on an individual basis, and punish only the rulebreakers rather than the whole server for the actions of a few.
But people have proven that is no longer a viable, realistic option.
The straw has already broken the camel's back.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Fire Wraith on Jan 15, 2016, 04:25 PM
Post by: Fire Wraith on Jan 15, 2016, 04:25 PM
Yes, what Edge said. The hardcoded system was also meant to remove the uncertainty for the players, because in the past, you had to guess at what items were or weren't appropriate, which caused unnecessary stress for lots of well meaning players and DMs. In my opinion the color coding works a lot better for that, both in terms of making life easier on us, but also easier on the players.
And to be fair, the problem wasn't just one that stems from one or two bad eggs. The problem was that the system itself was prone to abuse, and basically incentivized it. Absent something preventing you from doing so, it's in your character's interest to have better gear, and is entirely natural to work to gain that through whatever paths you can. And that's fine - but without the hard level gating, people pushed the grey area more and more.
And I don't mean any of this in a negative way either. It's an entirely OOC construct to say "you can't give this sword to your friend, because he's lower level than you are." Unfortunately it's a necessary one, and thus we need to come up with the mechanics that prevent it, so that you're no longer left with the unanswered question, it's preempted by "I can't give it to you, period."
And no, if we removed the chance of finding that 1 in 10000+ item, we'd just make it so that you couldn't hold anything above your tier at all (rather than two tiers up), nevermind equip it.
And to be fair, the problem wasn't just one that stems from one or two bad eggs. The problem was that the system itself was prone to abuse, and basically incentivized it. Absent something preventing you from doing so, it's in your character's interest to have better gear, and is entirely natural to work to gain that through whatever paths you can. And that's fine - but without the hard level gating, people pushed the grey area more and more.
And I don't mean any of this in a negative way either. It's an entirely OOC construct to say "you can't give this sword to your friend, because he's lower level than you are." Unfortunately it's a necessary one, and thus we need to come up with the mechanics that prevent it, so that you're no longer left with the unanswered question, it's preempted by "I can't give it to you, period."
And no, if we removed the chance of finding that 1 in 10000+ item, we'd just make it so that you couldn't hold anything above your tier at all (rather than two tiers up), nevermind equip it.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Edge on Jan 15, 2016, 05:06 PM
Post by: Edge on Jan 15, 2016, 05:06 PM
What a lot of people may not know or realize is that these rules are not new, not impromptu applications, and by and far not implemented without reason. CD has been around for a long time, in the scope of NWN servers and communities. And many of our rules, regulations, and scripted-in restrictions and operations are the result of years of experimentation to find the methods that we find work best. They're the result of, and a byproduct of, countless different attempts and suggestions, tweaks and alterations, over the passage of a great deal of time and the shifting of the community.
It's also why we may seem, to the new or unfamiliar or unaware eye, to be very slow or reluctant to consider suggestions or ideas that come up, especially from newer members or people who have been away for a long time. It's because the system we have is the result of - now - a full DECADE of refinement, gradual tweaks and adjustments, and similar previous suggestions, some of which were taken, some rejected, and some accepted with alterations.
When we do things like this, there's a reason. And it's not something we do quickly or without consideration and discussion. The admins were discussing the idea of these locks, and whether or not it was really necessary to implement them, for over a month before they were first applied. And it was an idea that had come up several times previously over the years, and after various amounts of discussion in those prior opportunities was rejected for whatever reason was appropriate at the time, usually in that it wasn't considered an immediate necessity, and/or that we were still willing and able (HEAVY emphasis on "able") to handle such issues on a case-by-case basis.
Times change, the server's needs change, and the demands on the staff and expectations of the playerbase change. And with such change come adjustments and necessities that may have not been needed or wanted anymore. And outside of that, life changes. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly do not have the kind of free time I had ten years ago. Back when the server first started, I was pretty capable of running a quest a week, sometimes two. Now? Twice a month if I'm leading the quest, maybe a little more as a co-DM, and those are on good months where I'm very free with time; on bad months, like January, I'm barely online at all, and definitely not DMing much. And that's not even counting admin tasks and responsibilities. I'm sure FW, Bella, and Vincent's lives have all undergone similar adjustments and changes of schedule and availability and resources and just plain energy to be that bloody active.
And unfortunately, a side-effect of those kinds of changes is the need to automate things that previously we would have been willing or able (again, emphasis on "able") to handle personally on an individual basis.
And just to pre-empt the question... no, this isn't something that should/could be just "turned over to the DMs". DMs are storytellers. Their job is to shape stories for our world, to entertain players and themselves, and to liven the setting. That's a pretty big task in and of itself. What isn't on their plate is managing players on an OOC level and policing the server; that's the job of the administration. We want our DMs to be able to focus on telling stories and bringing Cormyr to life, expanding characters' interactions and building on plotlines and making this place entertaining and enthralling to play in. They don't need the excess distraction of needing to be Server Cops taking their attention away from that.
It's also why we may seem, to the new or unfamiliar or unaware eye, to be very slow or reluctant to consider suggestions or ideas that come up, especially from newer members or people who have been away for a long time. It's because the system we have is the result of - now - a full DECADE of refinement, gradual tweaks and adjustments, and similar previous suggestions, some of which were taken, some rejected, and some accepted with alterations.
When we do things like this, there's a reason. And it's not something we do quickly or without consideration and discussion. The admins were discussing the idea of these locks, and whether or not it was really necessary to implement them, for over a month before they were first applied. And it was an idea that had come up several times previously over the years, and after various amounts of discussion in those prior opportunities was rejected for whatever reason was appropriate at the time, usually in that it wasn't considered an immediate necessity, and/or that we were still willing and able (HEAVY emphasis on "able") to handle such issues on a case-by-case basis.
Times change, the server's needs change, and the demands on the staff and expectations of the playerbase change. And with such change come adjustments and necessities that may have not been needed or wanted anymore. And outside of that, life changes. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly do not have the kind of free time I had ten years ago. Back when the server first started, I was pretty capable of running a quest a week, sometimes two. Now? Twice a month if I'm leading the quest, maybe a little more as a co-DM, and those are on good months where I'm very free with time; on bad months, like January, I'm barely online at all, and definitely not DMing much. And that's not even counting admin tasks and responsibilities. I'm sure FW, Bella, and Vincent's lives have all undergone similar adjustments and changes of schedule and availability and resources and just plain energy to be that bloody active.
And unfortunately, a side-effect of those kinds of changes is the need to automate things that previously we would have been willing or able (again, emphasis on "able") to handle personally on an individual basis.
And just to pre-empt the question... no, this isn't something that should/could be just "turned over to the DMs". DMs are storytellers. Their job is to shape stories for our world, to entertain players and themselves, and to liven the setting. That's a pretty big task in and of itself. What isn't on their plate is managing players on an OOC level and policing the server; that's the job of the administration. We want our DMs to be able to focus on telling stories and bringing Cormyr to life, expanding characters' interactions and building on plotlines and making this place entertaining and enthralling to play in. They don't need the excess distraction of needing to be Server Cops taking their attention away from that.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 05:59 PM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 05:59 PM
To clarify. I am not complaining at -all about item level restrictions, or even the XP mediation. The XP mediation I even prefer as to allowing for two week level 20's. My only disappointment is in the roadblock to RP with a wholly RP gained circle of IC friends when it comes to going places on the server. Being new, I'm wholly unfamiliar with the level of abuse the mechanics have taken here, so do forgive if I'm limited by my own perspective.
I'm in no way griping about the server as a whole either. It's only the one thing that sort of put me out of sorts with the sort of freedom of IC interaction I'd gotten quickly used to before the change for entering quest areas.
Take my perspective as you will, as you continue to evaluate the locks put on the non-epic areas. I, for one, would be elated to see them open freely for me to take the chance on getting my PC smashed in the mist of her friends again.
I'm in no way griping about the server as a whole either. It's only the one thing that sort of put me out of sorts with the sort of freedom of IC interaction I'd gotten quickly used to before the change for entering quest areas.
Take my perspective as you will, as you continue to evaluate the locks put on the non-epic areas. I, for one, would be elated to see them open freely for me to take the chance on getting my PC smashed in the mist of her friends again.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: foo on Jan 15, 2016, 06:14 PM
Post by: foo on Jan 15, 2016, 06:14 PM
would it be possible to allow such exceptions, but to have the server log any exceptions to the dungeon level rules? For that matter, since there is another database logging DM xp, could it be possible to let people have an exception of one out-of-level dungeon entry a week? That way an occasional casual entry wouldn't be penalized, but the people who have friends could bring them along once in a while.
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: ladybug on Jan 15, 2016, 06:24 PM
Post by: ladybug on Jan 15, 2016, 06:24 PM
The people who are high enough level to get into said dungeons have been around long enough that they know better. Why should Vince have to code in a catch that enables them to continue getting around the rules?
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: foo on Jan 15, 2016, 07:04 PM
Post by: foo on Jan 15, 2016, 07:04 PM
Title: Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 07:30 PM
Post by: Deleted on Jan 15, 2016, 07:30 PM
I've been in a very rough place emotionally lately, so if my tone is curt or harsh you'll have to excuse me.
The "exceptions" are no longer exceptions. Over the past year, especially during the past six months, the unstated attitude among the community is now "if you can do it, it's allowed." That this is exactly against server policy has changed nothing. We have a posted guide that outlines what levels we expect at said dungeons and nothing changed. That we've had to repeated pull people aside has changed nothing. That we've had to pull the same people aside changed nothing. That we've had to pull staff members aside has changed nothing.
Instances of higher level characters running other characters who were far outside the intended levels for the dungeons is no longer the exception. It became the norm. As this was never intended to be this way, we implemented an ooc mechanic to deal with an ooc abuse of the way our dungeons are built and implemented.
We are not removing the dungeon locks. We may change what levels they are locked at, but the system is not going away. As this thread has stated such repeatedly, and it's being ignored, it is now locked. If you wish to suggest a change in level range for a dungeon, please start a separate thread.
The "exceptions" are no longer exceptions. Over the past year, especially during the past six months, the unstated attitude among the community is now "if you can do it, it's allowed." That this is exactly against server policy has changed nothing. We have a posted guide that outlines what levels we expect at said dungeons and nothing changed. That we've had to repeated pull people aside has changed nothing. That we've had to pull the same people aside changed nothing. That we've had to pull staff members aside has changed nothing.
Instances of higher level characters running other characters who were far outside the intended levels for the dungeons is no longer the exception. It became the norm. As this was never intended to be this way, we implemented an ooc mechanic to deal with an ooc abuse of the way our dungeons are built and implemented.
We are not removing the dungeon locks. We may change what levels they are locked at, but the system is not going away. As this thread has stated such repeatedly, and it's being ignored, it is now locked. If you wish to suggest a change in level range for a dungeon, please start a separate thread.