Print Page - Shifter jank & possible improvements

Title: Shifter jank & possible improvements
Post by: SpacePope on Jul 25, 2022, 08:27 AM

I've written about all of that on the Discord before, but I thought it best to summarize it on the forum so it doesn't get lost to time, so here are some thoughts and suggestions about possible improvements to shifters, being one of the few who've leveled one to the epic levels in the past few months.

Also, I know some of those are already under consideration and I'm already very thankful for all the improvements that have been made in the past months. Huge props to Fox and Vince for all of their work, and to all the other ones who may have helped behind the scene!

Minor spell changes

These applies to Druid too, but seem like minor issues that'd be easy to fix:

Mass Teleport

According to the forum spell list, druids should have access to Mass teleport, as it's supposed to be how "Transport via Plants" is implemented. Ingame, this does not hold up, as they only get the self-use teleport and not the mass one. Not a big issue, but it's a discrepancy that I think would deserve to be fixed, as the PnP spell allows them to bring other people. If not, maybe update the forum description?

Mass Eagle Splendor
Druids get the single target eagle splendor spell but not the mass one. Not sure why, and I don't really mind it, but wouldn't it make sense to get both?

Shifter stuff

First, I talked a lot about all of this on the Discord so just skip it if you've already read all of it, but to summarize, there is a lot of weird jank related to the class. Some of it is unfixable, but I'm sure that some relatively minor changes could already improve the versatility of the class by a lot and make the vast majority of the bad/useless shapes worth trying once in a while.

I'd also add that despite what some may think, the class is playable. I had (and still have) fun despite the bugs and weird balancing, and I don't think it needs some massive boost in power or anything. Shifters are tanky, especially so at epic levels due to the variety of immunities and DR possibilities, but without suddenly upsetting the entire balance by providing them massive offense, I think some small improvements could be made to help the main issue with playing one: that being the extreme laziness in which the Bioware devs implemented the vast majority of the shapes, making them redundant or even useless.

In sum, the class has some good forms to use, but they're very limited and I'd love for it to have a reason to use the other shapes it gets once in a while.

Tumble & Spellcraft
Shifter AC caps out very early at good numbers, but it's hindered from improvements at epic levels by the lack of tumble and bad Dex numbers on the shifter shapes. Druids get Tumble on CD, but not shifters. It's either a conscious balancing choice or an oversight, but I think it'd be nice to add it to them as it'd fix some annoying parts of leveling.

For example, I won't be able to get the 25 and 30 skill rank milestone in the skill until lvl 30, where I'll take a final level in druid just for it. This, despite the druid forms already providing better AC than the shifter ones, and T5 equipment or Epic spells (EMA) not improving AC at all for shapeshifted forms as we get Dodge capped very early.

I'd also add that, strangely enough, Shifters don't get spellcraft despite being a spellcasting class on CD. This makes it very annoying to hit those high Epic Spell DC targets. Could it be added, if they're to remain a spellcasting class? Otherwise, I would LOVE for shifter to lose the spellcasting and get massively improved shapeshifting, but I know that'd be a lot more work to balance.

Druid vs Shifter & CD specific changes

The changes to item merging made on CD are a huge boost to Shifter & Druids, but also have had a side effect of messing up the balance of pure druid vs going shifter.

As a whole, the shifter shapes tend to have much lower stats than those of a pure druid: druids get animal shapes and their dire forms faster than shifter get their "strong" shapes (ex: lvl 15 Dire Tiger for shifter, vs lvl 12 Dire Bear for druids), and the elemental forms have plenty of immunities as well as extremely high stat scores compared to anything that's exclusive to shifter.

In the vanilla game, this is balanced out by the fact that Druid shapes do not merge their items, while Shifter get to merge some of them, depending on the form. An example of that is the Air elemental getting 30 (34 for the elder one) dex, while the highest dex on a shifter-only shape is 22 for kobold commando (upgraded to 25 at lvl 27).

Most of the better shifter shapes are also exclusive to epic levels, and the upgrades to the basic forms are only unlocked at very high levels. Epic kobold is great, for example, but you get it at lvl 27 at the earliest, much later than even Dragon shape. Some of the shifter shapes also get worse stats at epic levels: Manticore and Harpy lose their Con or Dex bonus for example.

Currently, abilities like the Slaad (lvl 23 shape requiring 1 epic feat in greater wisdom and the feat in the shape itself) Chaos Spittle only do (shifter level /3 + 2)d4 damage, which is extremely underwhelming compared to the power level you find on CD, where most damaging spells have received a boost and where things like Swordmage exist. The damage calculation for the wyrmling breaths, Manticore spikes and Dragon breaths are similar, resulting in near useless abilities. Some of these also include very low DCs, making them even worse.

Proposal:
To help matters, I'd suggest:

making small changes to the stats of the existing shapes by rounding up all of the uneven stats (here's a LOT of them) and adding back some stat bonus to most forms where one of the phys stat is lacking. This includes for example the Constructs, which all have Str only and no other stats.
adding the wisdom modifier to any and all abilities DC. Currently, none of the abilities are useful at the level you get them, since their scaling is usually limited to improvements per /2 or /3 shifter levels.
I'd also look into improving the damage numbers of the damage abilities by making them scale per shifter level instead of /2 or /3.

TL;DR:

Add Spellcraft & Tumble to the Shifter skill list;
Round up the uneven stats & add the missing stats on most of the shifter shapes;
Make the shifter shapes special ability damage and DCs scale per shifter level instead of per /2 or /3 levels, and maybe add the Wisdom modifier to the DCs (like Illithid blast already gets)

I've made a spreadsheet with all of the most important stats for the shapes, if anyone wants to have a quick summary of what's available to the class right now.

Title: Shifter jank & possible improvements
Post by: necromancingthestone on Aug 04, 2022, 07:07 AM

This is a great list I have been playing a Druid for several months now on the server and have learned a fair bit about them. I don't know much about shifters, so I can't say what they need, but I know their shapes need a great deal of work and this list seems pretty comprehensive. But for Druids? some slight touches to the elemental shapes (the animal shapes are fine, really and work as intended) and a few added spells, and they are good.

Spells:

I have mentioned it before, but I think that Druids should have access to haste, invisibility, improved invisibility, negative energy protection, and surprisingly mass eagles splendor. dDruids have feats and other spells that apply to movement and hiding, they should have the two series of spells that really add to that. As for negative energy protection....their whole schtick is fighting against the unnatural....undeath is unnatural personified, yet they can't protect themselves from their primary method of attacking.  forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Druid?so=search "they are violently opposed to aberrations and the undead" As for mass eagles, that is just a mistake or oversight on NwN part I am pretty sure. Lastly: The spell Awaken: Adding a +1 dodge ac /2 caster levels would go a long way to making companions viable. Druids have shifting and summoning in help, but their primary summons...their companions, have such horrible ac, they are practically unusable.

Elementals Shapes:

There is no reason that their stats are so all over the map in terms of total power granted. Also, a few added abilities unique to each shape and they will pull Druids up and provide them the power level they should have in the unique way they deserve.

All elemental shapes:

Huge: increase damage reduction from +2/10 to +3/10
Elder: increase damage reduction from +3/15 to +5/15

Air elemental:

This shape needs very little. The stats it conveys should be the baseline for the others.

Huge

str: 19 ---> 20
dex: 30
con: 19 ---> 18

add: 50% immunity to electrical damage, the weapon finesse feat, and the ability to fly at will.

Elder

strL 23 --->24
Dex: 34
con: 19 ---> 18

add 100% immunity to electrical damage, the weapon finesse feat, the ability to fly at will, and increase base damage to 2d10.

Earth Elemental:

This shape should be very similar to shifter stone golem.

Huge

str: 30
dex: 10
con: 22 ---> 28

add: 25% immunity to slash and pierce.

Elder

str: 34
dex: 10
con: 22 ----> 32

add: 50% immunity to slash and pierce, increase base damage to 2d12

Fire Elemental:

Huge

str: 19 ---> 26
dex: 19 ---> 20
con: 26 ---> 22

Increase base damage to 2d10 and increase fire damage to 2d12

Elder

str: 23 ---> 30
dex: 19 ---> 20
con: 30 ---> 26

Increase base damage to 2d10 and increase fire damage to 2d20

Water Elemental:

Huge

str: 25 ---> 26
dex: 22 ---> 22
con: 19 --->20

Add: 50% immunity to cold (in addition to the fire, the reason being they become an ice elemental when hit with cold damage), add immunity to drowning (no need for water breathing).

Elder

str: 29 ---> 30

dex: 22 ---> 26
con: 23 ---> 20

Add: 100% immunity to cold (in addition to the fire, the reason being they become an ice elemental when hit with cold damage), add immunity to drowning (no need for water breathing).

As I said, this isn't much, but it certainly would go a long way to helping Druids be in line with other classes in terms of power. It leans into the unique ability they have in shifting, helping them to really separate themselves and offer real advantage to a party.

Title: Shifter jank & possible improvements
Post by: SpacePope on Aug 04, 2022, 08:13 AM

Truthfuly, I'm not too sure about those:

1) The proposed spells are not backed by the PnP game or the lore;

2) The proposed changes to the elemental shapes go much further than what I'm proposing. I fear it would just cause even more imbalance between the shifter shapes and the druid-exclusive elementals, which already get some extremely good immunities and much higher stats than anything you can exclusively get from shifter.

Just as an example, my max AC is in kobold form at lvl 23: 63 AC. If I were to get Air Elemental? I'd top out at 69 AC instead, with immunity to critical hit, disease, mind-affecting, paralysis, poison, and sneak attack on top, 23 strength instead of my own base strength (6), 19 con instead of my own base con, a 2d8 bludgeoning weapon, and a DC 34+ AoE knockdown that only hits enemies. With finesse (which I took as a feat anyhow since a lot of dex shapes don't have it), you'd also have +6 AB compared to kobold, minus 1 for the size bonus it gets.

And keep in mind my AC hovers more around 58-60 in most other forms, without immunities or DR.

Improving the numbers on the DRs I could see, just because the DR spells on CD all had a boost due to their power level and the current numbers being useless for the levels you get the shapes at. That'd apply to the shifter ones with DR too, though. Same for fixing the uneven stats, as those just feel bad.

Edit: Just another example. You say the Earth Elemental would be like the shifter golem, but the golem only gets 30 Str. No dex, no con. It also costs an Epic Feat, and can't be unlocked before lvl 23 at the earliest, instead of being unlocked for "free" at 16 and improved at 20. The epic feat tax on shifter is massive if you want to get everything, as you need to spend at least one on +wisdom feats, then grab a feat for each and every shape type.

Title: Shifter jank & possible improvements
Post by: necromancingthestone on Aug 04, 2022, 11:39 AM

I understand your point, but you are arguing from a perspective of shifter as it stands, not from it being improved and brought up to speed. Shifter completely needs some work. I'd be of the opinion that every shifter shape should come with all 3 physical stats not just 1 or two. But honestly, not having played one here, I don't know. With your suggestions, and the fact that shifter has SO many options for shifts per day, they are extremely versatile and much more easily able to cover things like being dispelled, or changing to fit unique environments. They have the luxury of de-shifting and shifting back many, many times. That alone means they can be hugely powerful. Druids only get 1/day at 16, 2/day 17, 3/day at 19. It becomes unlimited at druid level 26 which is a huge commitment. Get dispelled and druids have very little options to deshift,rebuff, shift, and move on if there isn't a rest point. Shifter in the same span will have a dozen uses per day across several shift types.

But again, bringing up Druids to be in the same breath as wizards, favored souls, clerics, and sword mages, in their own unique way, is the goal. These changes would do that without unbalancing the mod. I can easily see that if shifters don't get love at the same time, which I suspect is a BUNCH more work, It wouldn't be great.

As for the spells and lore? I've legit never had any exposure to the "source" material than NwN so I probably don't look at it the same way. It's about balancing a video game to me. That may or may not be the best way to look at it, I don't know. But to me those spells fit perfectly into Druid spell books given the remainder of their spell book and their ideology.

I really appreciate the feedback because I know I don't have the market cornered on good ideas. It makes sense to me, but I can be easily shown the error of my ways.

Title: Shifter jank & possible improvements
Post by: Mistle on Aug 07, 2022, 09:48 PM

I know some servers had equipable items which altered the shapes which altered the shapes when used so like Minotaur became a Minotaur shaman when shifted with radial spells like Hammer of the gods. Adding more shapes for diversity would be grand, since Medusa and basilisk are redundant, Manticore, death slaad, and stone golem are the only real ranged attackers, And harpy has no scaling DC on a charm song despite having an epic shape? it's like drown ability of the water elemental wildshape being static at 20, caling DC's and a diverse array of shapes would be cool even if some of the shapes have to come from loot drops or DM reward "quest shapes" so...I wanna turn into a baby Tarrasque or at least a fourth kind of undead etc, shifters are supposed to get things like abberant and ooze morphs aswell or even plant/fey shapes being added. to Balance all this maybe scale back on the druid casting so that going shifter with every druid is a sacrifice. Anyway my thoughts on my fave class in the game. Oh and give shifter disguise/bluff as class skill...it's kinda silly they don't have it

Cormyr and the Dalelands

General Category => Suggestions & Ideas => Suggestions Archive => Topic started by: SpacePope on Jul 25, 2022, 08:27 AM