Cormyr and the Dalelands

DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be a rant thread or an open argument. I'm merely curious as to the populous' view on exotic races. There have been past snide remarks, full on threads, even occasional attacks on the matter. The subject is probably at least as controversial as the other dead horses on the server, so please keep things civil and constructive. This is not a covert attempt to alter anything - the administration has made it clear that the current compromise is what has been established and more than likely will not change anytime soon, if ever.

Should probably be an option for "Other - discussed in thread" or some such.

My opinion hasn't changed. I'd prefer if they have nothing but flavor benefits(spells) and no attribute increases or the like. If being a half dragon is imperative to your character's narrative, then give them the aesthetic, breath weapon, and elemental immunity, but leave off the attribute bonuses.

I don't feel exotic races offer too much in terms of story telling a human couldn't replicate and in the long term can damage story telling potential due to an inherent lack of flexibility.

I'm able to understand the counter arguments, but I just don't agree with them. I've played a couple of ecl, but they weren't for me mechanically or otherwise.

That's a good idea, but I only see an option to remove the poll when I edit? I might be blind, but if someone with higher forum privileges could add in that option I'd highly appreciate it.

Edit: Seems restricted to Moderators/Administrators once any votes are cast to avoid "rigging" it after the fact by changing/adding options:
www.phpbb.com/community/faq.php#f2r5

That's the only option I see as well.

I always hate these kinds of polls.  Because honestly, if the ECL system ever gets changed.  A lot of people aren't going to bother playing.  I didn't spend 4 years slow-balling my leveling whilst watching people like Korlash get to 20 in 6 months, just for a different color skin and some spells.  I'm sure a lot of other ECL players are of the same mind.  PC's in a fantasy setting aren't meant to be plane-jane potato farmers ... if you want to play that, feel free, but in a high magic setting with plenty of IC reason behind having the ECL's we have.  It shouldn't even be an issue.  

I am fine with the ECL system as is. Many of them get powerful bonuses, yes, but with ECL they have severe drawbacks as well. Compared to a Human they level slower, receiving less fairy per day, and reach level caps quicker. A human on the other hand levels much faster, has no hard caps except 20 and 30, and will gain more HP, BAB, saves, and feats than their ECL counterparts, especially if you reach epic levels where they cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment. This is the balance of the system and I think it works well enough.

If you think Humans still are not good enough they petition for some of the Pathfinder (essentially D&D 3.75 by the guys who did the Dragon and Dungeon magazines for decades) changes, like Humans getting +2 to the ability score of their choice on creation.

I've long stopped worrying about people's ELC race aside from a minor comment from time to time (which based on the poll seems how people like it).  I was never quite sure that's how they wanted it to be dealt with but everyone else reacts that way.  So, it always seems like different model/wings/horns/skin colours and some mechanical benefits - to which, I'm sure there are numerous exceptions to that, it's just that the line of RP tends to be with close friends rather than public RP.  

I've never played one, but to me, the reason to play one is because of the racial RP and outcast nature of it.  That doesn't work in this server, so I stick with the standard classes races.


This won't ever change, even if it did, everything would be grandfathered in.  

Ah that's fair. I've never tried making a poll here so I wasn't sure how it worked.

Pretty much this. We have gone through the vault wipe/item wipe route before. It was vowed never again.

Gmone is probably the least represented class on the server, so you nailed it!

Also, your journal is amazing.

When I opened the thread, I was clear in the disclaimer that it wasn't a movement to change anything. I wanted to know where public opinion lay is all.

If I've learned anything from communities over the years of NWN's existence, it's that you'll never please everybody. I agree that any radical changes to the ECL races would cause "a lot of people to leave", just as I'm sure the current state has already quietly pushed others away due to its proliferation. "A lot of people will leave" because XP progression is too slow. "A lot of people will leave" because XP progression is too fast. "A lot of people will leave" because their favorite faction died off. "A lot of people will leave" because all their friends left. "A lot of people will leave" because they hate that a skybox changed or a bush was added or the music in an area changed. The point is moot, because I'm not rallying for change (also note this is in the General Forum and not Suggestions), but if I were, public opinion as a whole would be more valuable than any single loud voices.

I'm still technically part of the newer breed of players, but my gathering on the subject from previous conversations was that the "slow rolling" of XP was across the board and not limited to ECLs and any "fast tracking" you may point at over the last year was due to a global adjustment to the rate of advancement. Yes, there was an adjustment for ECL making an exponential difference, but I'm not aware of sweeping changes that were levied directly on ECLs, but do correct me if I'm misinformed.

But since we're opening up discussion on the subject in force again...

On the balance side of things, I've found ECL a curious monster. For CD sever specific, there is an additional house rule not in the PnP implementation - regardless of ECL one always begins at level 2. Any complaints about the slowed progression are ignoring exactly what "ECL" stands for (it's "Effective Character Level"). If you're a level 12 Half-Dragon (+3 ECL) you are comparable to a level 16 dwarf in power. The experience tax is the "back payment" for the adjustments, and if it is adjusted properly is only really making you earn experience at the level 16 that you really are. 

"A human on the other hand levels much faster, has no hard caps except 20 and 30, and will gain more HP, BAB, saves, and feats than their ECL counterparts, especially if you reach epic levels where they cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment."

Standard Half-Dragon Template:
+8 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, Natural AC +4, Breath Weapon, Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Immunities to an Energy Type, Sleep and Paralysis effects.

The level cap is 30, so at an ECL of +3 on CD, he caps out at level 27.

1) "The human will gain more HP". Slightly, but only if they're one of the militant classes of d10 of higher. Let's take the biggest HD there is - Barbarians have a d12. The barbarian, fully leveled, thus receives 36 total more HP for the 3 levels the Half-Dragon can't attain. The Half-Dragon, due to having an extra +2 Con adjustment, gains an extra 27 HP over the full levels it can attain. A difference of 9 hit points, whee. And that's comparing the highest hit die. If you are any class with a hit die of d8 or lower (which happens to be the average of all base classes), a human actually gets LOWER HPs.

2) "The human will have more BAB". False. +8 Strength is a flat out passive +4 boost (from level 2, I might add). It might take longer to hit level 20 (BAB doesn't advance from leveling post-epic), but any melee Half-Dragon will have a BAB of 4 points higher than a human. Oh, and they'll have an extra +4 damage to boot.

3) "The human has higher saves". In this case, true. The half-dragon has one save-altering stat, the +2 Con, so his saves will be lower.

4) "The human has more feats". The human has one more selectable feat at character creation. Arguable if it outweighs the benefits of the feat-like abilities the Half-Dragon receives - Darkvision, Breath Weapon or Sleep/Paralysis effects (before pointing out the similarities in Elves/others as far as Sleep immunity or Darkvision, the human receives the extra feat to balance those perks out).

5) "The ECL cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment." The con presented here is the ever-present "slower leveling" and that the character is "denied epic feats". Let's look at the second one first. A character receives a feat at first level, then one every 3rd level. So in the Epic realm, that means at 21, 24, 27 and 30. So the Half-Dragon does indeed lose out on one epic feat... or does it? Let's look at two epic feats for a moment - "Diamond Skin" and "Epic Energy Resistance". The former grants a +2 passive AC (it says Natural, but actually stacks with it), the Half-Dragon has +4 Natural AC, superior to an epic feat. The latter gives a resist 10 to one type of energy, the Half-Dragon has complete immunity to a type, again, superior to its epic counterpart. The Half-Dragon gets to enjoy this right from the start of character creation, without having to reach level 21. 

Other potential argument:

6) "The human gets more skill points". In this case, slightly true. The human does get 30 extra points, right? Oh wait...the Half-Dragon gets a passive +2 Int, so he's getting 27 points there. So, 3 extra from being human, and 3 extra from level cap difference. The skill caps also increase by 3 due to levels, so I guess you'll be "slightly less skilled" being capped at a 30 Perform base versus 33.

So we're left with whatever class abilities we get in three levels to justify the above (+4 damage, +2 Charisma, two epic feats at level one at the cost of one much later on) and anything else less mechanical (such as being able to fly). In a non-epic setting, you'd have to think long and hard before jumping into an ECL. If it's high enough, you'll lock yourself out of your highest level spells, or miss out on any high level class features. In an epic setting with a normal cap of 30, however, most classes already gave their goods up by 20, and a lot really just provide passive boosts beyond. You have to craft a real swiss-army knife of a character stretched over several classes to miss out on anything meaningful by level 27. I also don't know the full extent of any magic changes, but those three missing levels are only going to be slight passives (increased duration, save DCs and dispel resists) unless a lot of the capped spells allow damage increases beyond 27 (Most spells as written cap out at 25 dice, epic spells are fixed amounts of dice).

Even if you argue the above is relatively balanced, a Half-Dragon gets it all out of the gate at character creation.

The biggest balancing factor I see consistently being brought up is the slower progression. It was covered above, but it gets brought up so much that I'll reprise it here. The Half-Dragon (+3 ECL) starts at effectively level 5. It received two "levels" at creation, so of course it's advancement is slower - it should be closer to someone who is level 5. You are more or less taking out a loan on all the adjustments and abilities and paying it off over time. 

On the flavor end of things, CD in its current state feels more like it should be a Planescape setting and not Forgotten Realms. I understand the desire to play something that's a step above the norm, but opening the floodgates is just plain silly when a half-orc would reputedly gain more negative attention than drow or devil/demon breeds. "A line has to be drawn somewhere", but it looks a bit squiggly line from an outside view.

Damn that was long winded. I think I remember something about this not turning into an argument...I guess I failed at that.

This is incorrect. Check your Monster Manual again. Half-Dragons are +3, Half-Fiends and -Celestials are +4. That hasn't been changed.

There are some races that have, Avariel comes to mind immediately, being +3 in PnP but only +2 on CD. But Half-Dragons aren't one of those, other than saying "All half-dragons get wings if they want them" rather than PnP's "only half-dragons of Large size or larger automatically get wings".


This is honestly not all that surprising. A number of staff over the years have expressed regret or frustration with having chosen FR for the server's setting, and both privately and publicly stated that if they had the opportunity to do it over again, they'd select a different setting, or homebrew one from scratch. Myself among them.

Since that's not as much an option now, what it has become - over almost 9 years of play, storytelling, staff exchanges, and player base rotation, with the only real truly-permanent constants ever being Fire Wraith and Vincent - is sort of a loosely-FR-based our-world, even deliberately splitting off FR's canon and history at a certain point and saying "beyond this point, nothing you read in the books or on the wiki occurred unless we say otherwise".

Which frankly, over that much time and with the input and influence of that many people, is inevitable. If we still strongly resembled canon FR at this point, I'd be seriously wondering what happened, and more direly if player input was being allowed or considered at all.

So it is. I must have started with one in my head and switched over at some point. I will adjust appropriately.

I do recall reading (I think on the old forums) that at one point either the ECL was, or was being considered to only count as 1/2 for purposes of level cap. Is that still in effect/planned?

One more - In an ECL-world is there any mechanical reason to take Dragon Disciple as a prestige class over taking the Half-Dragon ECL race? You spend 10 character levels to "earn" what you could with effectively 3. It seems regulated to the purely "flavorful" camp. Have there been any past cases where characters were granted a rebuild from Dragon Disciple into a Half-Dragon?

No. We wound up taking several levels away from the PC (specifically, mine) that would have otherwise exceeded the limit, making it unnecessary to finesse the cap in that way.

It's actually a misconception that ECLs level slower.

Will it take longer for a half-fiend to hit level 12 than a human? Yes. The human will probably be level 14 by that time.

But the half-fiend is actually level 16, not level 12, giving them access to that awesome tier 4 gear well before the human. This was supposedly "fixed" a while ago, but after testing done by a few people with ECLs fresh after the change, nothing seemed to change at all (those who spoke with me on this can speak up if they wish, as I don't want to start naming names).

If progression were "fixed" so that a +4 ECL actually begins requiring RP XP at level 4, not level 8, so then when the human is level 12 they're level 8+4, I'd be happy with that change. Granted, I'm not even sure if it's actually possible within the scripts to recognize the level difference as opposed to/in addition to (not sure quite how to phrase it appropriately) the decreased XP gain.

I do wish there was a little more depth required to them though. I can't say much as 99% of the apps have been private in recent months, but those that haven't have been rather bare.

Mechanics aside, I'll be frank: the current behavior regarding exotic races is almost (if not completely) 100% the result of player actions and reactions.

When the server first got started, exotic races were, by and large, feared, loathed, looked down upon, and abused. Doubly so after the vault wipe and reboot Onivel mentioned, as there was a concerted effort by a large segment of the player population at that time to crack down ICly on anything that stepped outside the boundaries of "normal"; the majority of this segment is now long-gone from the playerbase, if that wasn't obvious from the get-go. There was a time where showing wings or tails in Arabel was liable to get you thrown stones at and/or chased out - and not by the implied many NPCs that NWN doesn't show, but primarily by the majority of players. Exotic characters had something to hide, and barring a few exceptions - Aasimars and Half-Celestials tended to get a pass from the get-go, and Dragon Disciples and Metallic Half-Dragons were also fairly quickly "accepted" - revealing you were anything other than the Standard Seven Minus Half-Orc was a severe blow to your reputation unless you had been around long enough to establish yourself as trustworthy and reliable regardless of your species, or if you had someone who was "Normal" who could vouch for you, likewise due to you proving yourself, often repeatedly.

As the server went on over the past decade, that perception changed. Tieflings, Genasi, Half-Drow, the remaining Chromatic Half-Dragons, and a few others started getting general acceptance. Why? Because 99% of their kind that had made themselves known or been discovered on the server before them had not been the types to make trouble. The public perception of that species and the stereotypes and fears associated with them had changed. And the ones who acted out? Generally, it was something else that got blamed besides their species - usually their religions, organizations they were associated with, and such like. My villainous kobold NPC Cheel, for example, wasn't as much considered evil because he was a kobold; the priority, even among the players opposed to him, was on his actions as a leader of an Aurilian cult and his willing cooperation with an Aurilian Cleric/Blackguard - Alu'Vien, who herself was a Half-Fiend. But likewise, people never referred to her as "Alu'Vien the Half-Fiend", but almost always as "Alu'Vien the priestess of Auril".

When I stopped playing NWN back in 2011 or so, there were really only four races that, if you revealed you were one, were liable to get you immediately chased out or killed on the spot: Orcbloods/Goblinoids, full Drow, Half-Fiend, and Undead. Lycanthropes may have been a fifth option, but more likely the majority of players would just hog-tie you and drop you off at the Temple of Selune and get the priests there to "fix" you, rather than killing you on the spot.

And even that's changed over the past two or three years. Now we've got Bass walking around in full- or near-full fiendish bombasticness, and I've seen at least one Drow walking around Arabel unmasked. I've been away long enough to not know the stories, but in just the week I've been back and playing a little it seems the majority of people get along, despite racial boundaries that would have crushed their interactions five or six years ago. (And that's not getting into player-created places like Stonehaven, where there IS no canon to dictate how things would normally operate, and thus behaviors and expectations there are COMPLETELY at the whim of player action.) Honestly I think the anti-Orc thing really just hangs on by tradition alone, coupled with the fact that very few people are interested in playing Half-Orcs so that community perception of the race hasn't been altered as freely or firmly as the more popular Drow, Outsiderkin, or Dragonkin have.

This is pretty much it. We just don't have the time/energy/etc to constantly fight the entire playerbase on this issue, because it would be all that we'd ever spend our time running.

This doesn't mean that the non-adventurer population thinks any different though, even if it makes for a shock when people suddenly get treated like a freak or a monster by NPCs (even important ones).



Remember, always spay or neuter your lycanthrope!

Knew someone was gonna go there

All of that is focused specifically on one race, Half-Dragon, a high ECL race. Half-Fiend and Celestial are higher and gain more widespread benefits.

Ability scores: Half-Dragon bonuses do lend themselves better to warrior races given a Dragon's natural strength but are no greater than non-Human benefits in other areas. They make decent Mages but pre-epic they are completely prevented from reaching level 9 spells, Rogues benefit from the skill point increase but otherwise their damage increase is minor, as +4 on most will not amount to much considering Rogues are almost always shit damage unless sneak attacking. +4 Str AB and damage is decent at lower levels for warriors but not as much as time goes on.

More feats: I refer not to character creation, rather to the final hard cap feats at 18 and 30. That is one normal feat and one epic feat that a Half-Dragon misses out on. The normal feat may not be as potent as some of the bonuses received by the Half-Dragon but the epic feat certainly can be. There's a wide variety of epic feats in NWN that are tremendously useful, Armor Skin being one of them. Epic Damage Resistance, Great are others. These are, however, not necessarily going to be as powerful as some of the racial bonuses some ECL's get... but you are not paying an XP cost to get them either. And because epic feats do not take ECL into account a Half-Dragon actually gets its first epic feat 3 levels after it normally would, if they were Human. That is a massive time investment considering the slowness of gaining levels, especially if you do not regularly participate in DM plots. While a Human character may be sitting with, say, Epic Weapon Focus and Specialization for +2 AB and +4 damage if they were a multiclass Fighter at 21 and timed a bonus feat to apply at that level, the Half-Dragon will be choosing a normal feat and waiting months.. if not years given the slowness of some people progressing.

Skill points: Other races get Intelligence bonuses too on creation, ECL or not. Sun Elves get +2 Intelligence. The comparison is a little faulty.

But all in all the discussion of mechanics, while interesting (I like mechanics), is a little besides the point I think. I think they pay a high enough price for what they get, even if others disagree on that part, DM XP cap aside. Most all of these players have put some serious effort into properly playing the race they applied for, so I do not really care if they may be slightly more powerful, mechanically, at early levels. This is not a PvP-focused server, even if PvP does occasionally happen. Your enjoyment of the game should not be increased or diminished because of what mechanical increases another player got. It should be increased by the diversity that character brings to the RP when they interact with others, providing a look at something other than a Human. They are special, even if they are accepted, and this is a high magic server. Even with that they are still a drop in the bucket compared to the overwhelming Human majority in Cormyr who may not be as generous as players.

A +4 ecl caps at level 28 not 26. I've done all the math point for point before, but the system won't change. That's OK. I don't like it at all, but it's really minor in the grand scheme of things. Unless your grand scheme is potato farming, I guess. =p

This, so SO much this.

There was a time that if Cara walked around showing wings, she would have been in danger of SO many bad things.  It took YEARS for anyone to convince her to walk around openly, and even then it's only in Arabel or other safe-havens (World Serpent Inn, Stonehaven, etc.).

As to mechanics, the only way levelling is "easier" ECLs usually depends on the hunting XP.  Yes, those characters can generally quickly achieve the maximum hunting XP per level... until you hit level 12-ish.  Then it grinds to a near halt due to the lack of creatures that grant XP for those levels.  In addition, the fairy/DM xp takes forever to accumulate.  If you play an ECL that doesn't do DM events often (for whatever reason), you're looking at several RL months in order to level.




Agreed.  At this stage of the game, if someone is applying for a race just for "awesome mechanics," they're really only hurting themselves.  I've toyed with several such ideas, but never applied for them due to a lack of interest in the story.  Those who put time and forethought into their characters enough to apply for the race properly (I've seen shorter novellas than some of these applications) will enrich the story of the characters around them.

Rather than ECLs, I'm more worried about the ratio of elven characters to non-elven characters.  Can we nerf elves, please?  (Sorry, just... couldn't resist.  Blame the lack of caffine.  I have no will.)

I stuck to one race as an example in order not to cherry pick items against the items you stated were weighted in favor of humans. In fact, I'm more approving in general of lower ECLs, since it seems the higher the ECL, the more absurd they get. For only +1 ECL over a Half-Dragon, a Half-Fiend/Half-Celestial receives:
-6 extra ability scores each: Dex +4, Int +2 for Fiend, Dex +2, Con +2, Wis +4 (Str -4), Cha +2 for Celestial
-Multiple resistances (not full immunity to one type, but far more flexible - ask Hellball)
-Passive Damage Reduction (which increases at higher levels)
-Passive Spell Resistance that improves as they level
-Smite Good/Evil
-Free Spell-like Abilities
-Immunity to Poison/Disease

Tell me the above is worse than a single level, even an epic one.



You can do the same thing with the standard races - a half-orc isn't the best choice for a mage, a dwarf sorcerer takes a dip in charisma. If you want an ECL better suited to a particular class, you can do it. I choose a martial build and Half-dragon for my examples because the initial comparisons you made to humans (BAB, HP, et al) lended themselves to it. The typical mage is not going to care about BAB much. As you stated before, Half-dragon is only a single ECL race of many. Want a better mechanical choice for cleric? Half-celestial has a built in Wis boost. Looking for a rogue, sure, you're better off with a half-fiend for the dex boost than half-dragon. Even if you're not favoring the boosted stats, the fact that they give you flexibility as extra available ability dumps allows you to just tank them and put ability points elsewhere at character creation.

There's a thin line between pre-epic and epic on CD anymore to my understanding. It was once a huge event requiring an ascension quest, now it's simply measured by time and character involvement/activity. Fact of the matter is, the mage may wait longer to access those spell levels, but it isn't like they are forever beyond reach (not to mention they can still access any level spell via a scroll).

+4 damage is again almost equivalent to another epic feat investment - Epic Weapon Specialization. You say "shit for damage", I say "that adds up over the course of multiple attacks and critical hits". The same goes for the +AB. Even if you continue to argue that they are "minor" boosts, they are extra perks not available to the stock races without significant investment.



My point was, if you drop the XP argument (since you aren't locked out and can earn it regardless of pacing), you are effectively trading X class levels for X ECL. Your argument is that you lose two feats, my argument was you gain abilities to offset that, and those abilities are more powerful than the Epic options!

And you can stack the epic feats on top if you want. Armor Skin will go with your natural AC and free up a neck slot to do whatever you want with in the process.

I am paying XP to get my epic feats as a standard race. That's what my levels 28-30 are. As a half-dragon or whatever ECL you choose, you just got those levels upfront and are paying them over time. If you level both to max, it should work out to be the same total XP required.



+2 AB and +4 damage, huh? Strange, I could have sworn the Half-Dragon STARTED with +4 AB and +4 damage, meaning he grabbed it far earlier than the human fighter did, and he still has the option of picking up those specialization feats if he wants later. (not too mention that just above you argued that +4 Damage and +4 AB was "decent for low levels but not so much at higher levels")

I know that's just an example, and there are epic feats that can't be granted via ECL, but the stat boosts alone are worth several "Great Ability X" epic feats.



It wasn't faulty in the context you provided. You compared a human straight up to an ECL. Sun Elves also take a -2 penalty to Con. Apples to oranges.



...and I am unconvinced a "high price" is being paid. At "best", many ECLs are getting power upfront in exchange for loaned experience that they pay out over time. I'm not here to argue to change anything, but I'm not going to run with the fallacy that ECLs are "punished".



Is the implication here that all ECL races are more effort to "properly play" than the standard races?



The problem is, I'm sure there are applications that are purely pitched for mechanical reasons. I'm also not quite feeling the "diversity" angle when 90% of the special races are applied for in secret and most are kept hidden in game via cloak and hoods. Does "I'm a big scary half-vampire" really contribute more to a character than a personality or quirks. Not saying diversity is a bad thing, but race should never be a substitute for interesting character.

It also cheapens impact and interest when every other player is some sort of special half-breed, rather becoming the new norm. Gnomes are also a rarity on the server, but I see very few chomping at the bit to play one of those.

Aaah, ECL races.  What a subject, and one we'll never find harmony on.  Here's my take on them, in convenient, easily-debated bullet points.

1)  ECL races are too common.  This one doesn't need any explanation.  At any given time, 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters online have ECL races, sometimes more during slow times.  It used to be even higher in the recent past, during which the Square became known as the Aviary because of the number of winged PCs around there, but a resurgence of players has led to a leveling out of the ECL races at this level.

2)  ECL races seem like stat sticks first, roleplay potential second.  This is especially true the higher the ECL is, since the greater the ECL the exponentially greater the bonuses.  One of the questions the application asks is how the race affects the character's roleplay, and I think this is one most people don't take seriously.  With the exception of drow, most ECL races I see could be done almost identically if they weren't an ECL race at all, and sometimes nobody even knows ICly that the character is an ECL race.  This leads me to believe that the ECL race often isn't taken for roleplaying potential, since that's usually ignored, but is taken for all the lovely checkboxes on the character sheet.  Oddly, this sometimes inverts itself, to no less detriment - The ECL race is all the character is and is the only thing that makes them interesting.  Back to the Aviary days again, I remember a rash of half-dragon PCs that were among the most boring, flat, cardboard characters I'd ever seen - They had no personality beyond being half-dragon.

3)  The free availability of high ECL races renders other things obsolete.  Why would you be a tiefling or an aasimar when you could be a half-celestial or a half-fiend?  You get SO many more bonuses to every conceivable stat, and you get it all up front.  Compare aasimar (+4 stat points, Darkvision, +4 skill points, 15 points of resistances, Bless for one feat at level 9, wings for another feats at level 12) to half-celestial (+20 stat points, Darkvision, immunity to disease, 30 points of resistances, damage reduction 5/+1 increasing to 10/+1 at level 12, spell resistance 10+level, +4 Fort vs. poison, free wings, and a whole list of spell-like abilities including Resurrection at epic levels).  Well worth giving up three levels for.  And let's not get started on the fact that half-dragon is essentially 10 levels of dragon disciple without the prerequisite class for a 3-level penalty, making the entire dragon disciple class absolutely meaningless since it gets nothing half-dragon doesn't and has to give up 8 more levels (7 class levels and the one-level prerequisite) to do it.

4)  ECL races potentially affect balance, and especially quests.  Since they are so powerful for their level it can lead to a situation where the ECL character winds up making a 'normal' character feel useless, since even though they're roughly the same level they have better stats, better gear, and are generally better at everything.  This often holds true even when you account for the ECL - A level 12 half-dragon fighter is still better than a level 15 human fighter, statistically.  The only time this doesn't apply is with caster classes, where the ECL race will be a few levels behind until epic levels (then even that goes away).  Thus, this tends to be worse, and more noticeable, with non-casters than with casters.

Time to bring back Elfmyr and the Elflands!

...And the next issue in addition to ECL and elves, the wemen character ratio compared to male character ratio. Can we start nerfing the female characters, too?

Oh. And dark colours to light colours on clothing are next. Let's nerf those, as well.

Real rants and whining against elves versus elves is another one.  Time to get rid of that.

*Deliberately makes a slippery slope of 'issues.' >.> Purposefully.*

Ahem, back to the original programming.

~Arya

This offends me greatly.  If we play an ECL openly, we don't take the setting seriously.  If we hide the ECL characteristics, we're "not taking it for roleplaying potential."  You can't have it both ways.

As one of the ones who prefers playing her ECL characters concealed, the concealment IS roleplay potential.

Again, this comes down to a perception on other people's roleplay which, frankly, is nobody's concern beyond the admins.  Worrying about "proper" roleplay ruins everyone's fun.

This is a story server.  The important, story-line events, favor well-roleplayed, well-developed characters.  If all you're worrying about is the mechanics, you're missing the point.

I'm glad you pointed this out how you did, Bella.  I couldn't do so without coming off as a troll and turning it into a flame thread.  Thank you very much.

We're going to make it 1 for 1 on the level cap. Eve was already 28 (+4) when we decided to put that in, and at first we decided to come up with a way to basically grandfather that in, but I later decided it was better to just reduce her levels via some other RP in-game (she's presently 23+4).

I'm not going to wall-of-text, I feel most the pertinent points have already been made.  So I'll be brief.

I would really prefer exotic races be concealed and show more consequences for their race, which, in my opinion, leads to more RP fuel for everyone.  But I'm also tired of fighting against what is public opinion and fear it just leads to unneeded player-to-player antagonism.  It is what it is now, and probably too late to drastically change anything.

Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Zoo.

That's pretty much the situation in a nutshell. The general tide of player and character opinion is that people should be judged by their actions and/or associations before their race - it's a bit more modern of a viewpoint than most settings assume, FR included, but it reached that point through nearly a decade of RP and characters interacting and server and playerbase evolution. This wasn't an overnight process or a sudden decision by the staff or a massive influx of new players. As I stated in my last post, looking back over the years you can see the seeds of this eventual conclusion and how they developed slowly, one by one.

Despite this, there are a fair number of characters who keep their racial natures still concealed or at least on the down-low for various reasons, that I'm aware of, and I'm certain there are more that I'm not.

Actually, I feel my human character to be an exotic race in Arabel.

Yeah this line of snarky commentary comes up several times any time this particular topic rears its hydra-like heads again.

I would offer my thoughts, as a relatively new arrival to the server. Somehow I think that would be a 'bad idea' (tm).

To put what I said in a bit more perspective, my problem is that it tends to be 'one extreme or the other.'  I tend to see either characters where the ECL race makes no difference at all to the roleplay (either because it's not roleplayed at all or because so few people know about it that it doesn't matter) or characters where the ECL race is the only real aspect of the character (and thus there's no special reason to RP with them once you've met them once).  I'm not insulting you specifically (and I'm trying not to insult anybody; if I did I apologize) and I know that concealing an exotic race is roleplay potential, but remember that if you're too successful at concealing the race that potential will never translate into roleplay for anybody other than you.  I do see characters where the effects of the race are plain but there's a lot more to them than that, and I appreciate them (Bass and Ra'ziel are the current MVPs of blending race and roleplay, in my opinion, and I commend them for it) but I dislike the two extremes and the fact I perceive them to be the norm.

The problem is, Trylo, that you're judging people by the RP that they're willing to expend around YOU. The vast majority of my characters who have something like that to hide - be it race, religion, organization membership, or just plain dirty secrets or unpleasant history - do so behind closed doors with a select group of people, the people they trust and rely on. Between those characters is all that RP that you say is happening between too few people and thus it "doesn't matter". And I would be very willing to bet that the majority of other players with similar statuses behave in a similar matter.

THAT'S what is offensive about your post and your position - the idea that unless it's open and available for the majority of the server to see, someone's roleplay doesn't matter. Which couldn't be more wrong. You're being casually dismissive and disregarding of people's fun simply because you don't get to get a peek in.

I honestly wouldn't consider this snarky at all when demographics can be plotted.

To be fair, even if every single player was a half-dragon, Arabel still has an NPC population of thousands of humans.

What makes it snarky isn't whether or not it's technically true, even if you ignore, as Kirin pointed out, the overwhelmingly-human NPC population.

What makes it snarky is that it's a smart-alecky "I'm so clever" type comment with little more purpose than to irk tempers.

Okay, that's a fair point.  I am, admittedly, not very good at thinking things through from multiple angles, especially when it's a subject I find touchy (such as ECL races and how common they are).  With that in mind, then, why not keep the race but reduce the amount of mechanics-based power they give?  That way you can keep all the roleplay you like without appearing like you're doing it just for the statline?

We already ignore the NPC population.  In saying that the reactions towards ECL races have been defined 100% by the players, we accept the fact that the reactions of the NPCs in the setting don't mean anything.  They have 0% impact on the attitudes towards ECL races because the players have a monopoly on that.  Therefore, they are effectively irrelevant.

As for the comment, yeah, it's snarky.  But it's more done as a joke than as something specifically meant to piss people off.

On the one hand, it wouldn't horribly bother me. None of my exotic race characters are impressively built, statistics-wise, and I don't think such a change would harm them overmuch.

On the other hand, I think the vast majority of this problem of "clearly exotic characters are only being taken for the stats" is on the person making that assumption, not on the people being assumed at.

Didn't say they're only being taken for the stats.  I do think there are quite a few people who take them primarily for the stats, though.  Hard to argue with how much they get for free.

I'm not going to debate the semantics of the narrow gap between "only" and "primarily" in this context with you. I have better things to do with my time and I presume you do too.

Not really.  It's a slow day at work.  <.<

Fair enough I guess. I can't say the same.

Frankly the whole debate hinges on not what is true but your personal perception of such and the resulting accusation, which is even more pointless a basis for an argument. Until you can come up with a direct quote from someone - preferably someone who is active NOW - saying they picked a race just for the stats, it's really just conjecture and bias on your own part.

Allow me then to elaborate a bit, so you know where I'm coming from.  I don't mean to offend people quite as much as I do, and I think the reason for that is that I probably have a different mindset.  Namely, I have two sticking points that make ECL races a really touchy subject for me.

1)  I see ECL races as things that should be a little bit rare and exotic.  Special things.  They're meant to be races that inspire feelings in a 'mundane' character, whether that be fear, awe, curiosity, or hostility.  Right now, I kinda don't see that.  Because they have become so commonplace and the reaction to them is so player-centric, they've become 'just another day in Arabel.'  It makes some of the remaining pieces of the setting look awkward as well, such as why half-orcs are legally banned from Arabel while half-fiends, half-dragons, and even the occasional drow walk around like it's no big deal.  I personally try to avoid ECL races unless I can't tell the story I want to without using them (I have two drow and an aasimar) and I tend to expect other people to do the same.  This dovetails neatly into...

2)  I tend to be mechanically-focused.  I spend all day working with complex systems and as such I tend to think in terms of systems.  The main system in NWN is obviously the game mechanics engine.  When I see ECL races, especially the high-ECL ones, I see a huge mechanical advantage for a low trade-off.  I see what would be called overpowered in other games.  The D&D mechanics that normally keep ECL races in check (lower overall levels, weaker/fewer magic items, caps on XP, NPC reactions) don't really exist in NWN.

This combines to give me the general opinion of 'ECL races are overpowered.  They're obviously not taking those races because they're original or rare or unusual, because they're not.  How many stories really require the player to be that race?  They must have mechanically-motivated reasons, otherwise they wouldn't feel the need to keep making more of those races.'

Am I right?  No.  I'm often wrong.  I know this.  But it doesn't stop me from thinking it, and as you can see in my replies, it's going to taint my thinking a lot on this topic.

I apologize to everyone I've offended already and I preemptively apologize to the people I will probably continue to offend as I post.

Honestly, I think a lot of people have similar feelings to point 1, we've just, as Kirin has said, Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Zoo.

Since I'm in a ranting mood anyway I'll just go ahead and elucidate on my own stance on this. I've probably got a fair chance of being the resident speaker for fans of exotic races - if I had to guess, I think the only person with a larger weird:normal ratio in their vault is probably Vincent. Maybe FW or Bella as well.

You wanna know why I play exotic-race characters? Why I like them? Why the vast majority of my characters are something bizarre and unusual?

Because I am BORED of the Standard Seven.

I am BORED by almost every single campaign setting being occupied primarily by Tolkien knockoffs. I am BORED of Elves and Dwarves and Orcs and Halflings. And I am absolutely, positively, completely, utterly, totally SICK AND TIRED of HUMANS. Paizo and Pathfinder at least did something interesting and different and bizarre enough with Gnomes to make them interesting where in prior versions of the game they were utterly forgettable not-halflings not-dwarves not-elves, and made them stick out from the rest of an array of base species that can all be narrowed down to "Humans with different bodily phenotypes". Tall skinny human. Short stocky human. Big burly primitive human. Short sneaky human.

This isn't fantastical to me. The allure, the mystery, the fantasy of these races isn't fantastical. And it breaches settings. Just how different is a Greyhawk elf from an FR elf from a Golarion elf? Not a whole heck of a lot! Even less so with dwarves and orcs - you could toss one from one setting to another and likely most of their OWN KIND wouldn't even blink! Much less other races!

At least Eberron had the decency to shake things up a bit!

Nowadays, when I want to create a character for a fantasy game, I want something fantastic. In my PnP games, this is built into the system - Bella, Kamon, and the rest of my group use a homebrewed setting with a vast array of exotic, alien, unusual creatures as playable races, built into a world where such things are expected, a fantastical world where just because something doesn't look humanoid doesn't mean it can't be anything but the next combat encounter. That's less of an option here, because of the in-place exotic race system and the FR-based setting, but it's still an option that's available, one I have taken advantage of and will continue to do so in the future.

Now inevitably any time a complaint like this gets brought up, there will always be some genius who responds, "Well, what makes a character interesting should be their character and their actions and their story, not their race!". Which is true - as Trylo has, all too often, complained, there have been numerous incidents of exotic characters who had little more to them than a cardboard sign reading "I'm a monster! Rawr!" But race is one of the biggest building blocks of fantasy characters. It determines their origins, their history, their culture, their background, where they've come from and quite often where they're going, at least at the beginning of their adventure. And frankly, the cultures and backgrounds of most of the standard races BORE ME. I've never been a big fan of elves. Halflings were never all that interesting to begin with, especially in FR. 3.5 gnomes are forgettable; I don't even know what their story is on FR or if they even have one, beyond their (ugh and immensely problematic) rivalry with kobolds. Orcs are bluh. And even as much as I like the stereotypical dwarf as a construct, the idea of playing one has lost its luster. And humans are humans.

Hence why I reach for stranger realms when new character concepts start bubbling up. Cultures that haven't been dabbled in as much. Histories and backstories that are still interesting to me. It's why I can't thank FW and Vince enough that the World Serpent exists on CD - it gives me all of Planescape (a setting that as far as interesting and cool goes kicks FR to the curb and steals its teeth then sells them on the Sigil black market) to pull background ideas from.

That's pretty much in total why I get prickly when comments like Trylo's come out about "only/primarily playing certain races for the stats, not the story". Because these are the only stories I'm really interested in playing, but because they're mechanically superior to the basics, it's just assumed from the get-go that the numbers are the driving reason.

Well, you can look at the races applied for and the class progression they aim for to see the convenience between ECL picked and build planned. I can write a convincing exotic race application in an hour and come up with a decent back story. Having had so many(probably almost two hundred) characters on this server since I started, making character backgrounds is easy. Having spent years in writing workshops and having a passion for story telling and DMing makes it easy to come up with, at least, something decent. But as I said, I think it would be more creative and more thought provoking for -other people- in almost every application I could write if the race was substituted as human instead of X ECL.

That's my stance on it though. I find it much more challenging to level and play a vanilla race that has a particular struggle in multiple areas rather than insert a race that would supplement my build idea and google stuff and insert random tidbits of information to make a story coherent and develop it afterward. Maybe I just like to avoid certain "fall from grace rise to glory" storytelling tropes in my characters since I don't think I could bare to play that with interest for hundreds and hundreds of hours.

I want to be surprised as a player and a DM. When I see a certain race and/or build with the race, I've a pretty good guess as to what their background, stuggles, or ambitions are going to be. The overlay is comparable to humans with the same build, but there's a wide berth for surprise that locking in an ECL prohibits. When I rolled a half-gold monk, I did so so that my character would be unwavering in his conviction for such and such, but as I played it out, I found the lack of flexibility really showed in his appeal to others. Of course he's capable of bending, but how far could I really take it without going against the actual BLOOD of the character? A human or vanilla race doesn't face those things. You can completely flow with whatever story there is and be changed despite character integrity and such, because it's more believable and immersive for them to change in a story.

While I do think ECLs are mechanical monsters and introduce a power creep that needs to be balanced around for higher level dungeons, content, and quests which leaves others a step behind in scaling, my biggest issue is story telling potential and how ECLs can get left behind in bigger plots, because they simply don't fit and would -never- fit. I feel that's an issue that should've stayed present on applications where it use to ask, "Why can't this be non ECL?" The answers to that question aren't convincing at all.

These are my opinions. I've been impressed by some ECL play, but I also think most of the ECL storylines I've seen would've been more impressive -to me- if they weren't expected struggles. You can be the best prose writer of all time, but retelling a story or introducing expected plot curves won't sell an audience as well as surprise or betraying someone's expectation.

I won't lobby against ECLs like I've done in the past, but I think there is a lack of consideration for storytelling in the application process when most applications are plugs for build holes.

-Edit- Edge is the guy who picks catgirls in FFXIV! I knew it!

What I wanted to be able to play in an FF game that I didn't get a chance to was those lizard dudes in XII. Never been a big fan of catfolk, though we have lionfolk in our setting, Bella created those.

I was actually one of the ones who suggested to remove that question back when it was on the app. Because I agree, let's be quite honest, there is no concept that can be played that can't be done, with a little tweaking, with a "normal" race. And frankly I considered it a pointless question as a result.

It's what it is because that's what the player wants, whatever their reasons. I personally don't think it needs to be justified beyond that.

I feel your sentiment of just being "bored" of playing vanilla races to be the most valid argument thus far. If someone put that on their application, I would honestly just say, "Well shit, alright".

Hah! Fair then.

This makes perfect sense to me as well, especially for an old-timer like you.   

This. SO much this.  

The adventuring population as a whole constitutes as...what? 1, maybe up to 5% of the entire population?  They would be part of the "Other" population on demographics, if you want to put demographics into the mix.  So sometimes not even 1% of the population.

And quite honestly, some of the comments about the exotics, the elves, etc have been quite snarky in this thread, so people are going to take further comments egging those comments on as pretty much snark at this point. It gets old very fast.

~Arya

To be entirely different my own experience with ECL's is this.

First, it's not the race or the special glamour they have.  Fey are included in this.  It's how they're played and how interesting a player makes them.  Instead of relying on the extra bits, horns, wings, attributes and special abilities and coolness that goes along with an unexpected race, there's deeply involved story lines that develop and how those traits are perceived and involved in the story lines of others.  Now, those traits are widely different and it makes for examining what makes these characters who they are equally an interesting process because there's meat to play with.  Regular chars, dwarves, elves, humans, gnomes(That aren't used in Trebuchets), Hin, and half orcs, all have a wide variety of traits and personalities that make Rp great, and it's a matter of finding and bringing it out in an interesting way.

Second, ECL's may have an advantage mechanically, but again... it matters on the player using them.  I personally suck at playing them and regularly my chars are treated as pushovers.  I'm okay with that, it simply means I've less talent at NWN than most others.  No shame in admitting it.  If someone played it better and powerbuilt a cleric or a weapon's master, I look past all that and see how much effort is put into RP and so on.  It's what makes encounters great.  Yes I'm scared your character can annihilate mine, but it's how you come across and display or hide your talents that make it fantastic.  Really a subtle blend of both worlds.

Hope this wasn't snarky and was helpful.

I've always wanted to play a Fey character, but I don't know how.

It is very handy. I wish I had it when I played Alluria. It is far more indepth than the info I had at the time. I am glad it is there now that I have her son Simkin. Even though he is only half fey, it is a great reference and I look to it often.

Yeah they can be pretty tricky.

A good way to get into their mindset is to read stories that star them. The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher - primarily Summer Knight, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, Small Favor, and Cold Days - stars several fey, both lowly and powerful, as major characters. And the October Daye series by Seanan McGuire is completely set in a fey-side view of modern North America from the perspective of a changeling woman.

I've read all of those. I guess I just don't see a reason of playing Peppyr 2.0! I'm not sure what variables I could add to make it my own.

Doesn't need to be Peppyr 2.0 .. I'm sure their are innumerable was to make one your own. I know of 3 pixie PCs who have played on this server including my own, and not a one of them was alike.

Then you have Peppyr and Edge's fey as well. Each are quite distinct. The source is just inspiration and lore to help you find a quirk or niche to make one your own.

Yes, let's try to keep things civil and constructive here if we can. I'm including the earlier cracks about imbalanced populations of females or elves or clothing styles. The topic may be closed to discussion and dismissed in some minds, but remember that not all opinions are alike. A quick look at the current poll standings shows opinion bleeds straight down the middle on this subject, so it obviously isn't a topic we can definitively say should be one way or the other.

One camp does seem clearly in the mindset that the stock races are overplayed, bland and boring to them. That isn't the case for everyone, but it is a good opinion to be aware of. I personally haven't played out those races to boredom and while some can tap into behaviors and cultures and find those catapult them into interesting places, I find that it's at the heart of personality and motivations that drive me. It also helps tons that I can more easily relate to something more human than monstrous (the same familiarity that leans me more often to good or neutral alignments versus evil). It does occasionally feel like "alien overload" at times though, where you can sometimes be surrounded by a half dozen special races - that's probably the point where it goes to far, when I start picturing the Cantina scene in Star Wars rather than a familiar fantasy scene. When the "special races" start to feel too common, it actually inverts the issue to where some might find the ECL races overplayed and a dime a dozen, much like your own opinion of the tolkienesque races.

And that's really the big takeaway here, if anything. Everyone has their own tastes and perception of things.

Sidenote - Is there a mechanical breakdown of the difference between XP distribution for ECL versus non-ECL? Is it just a flat reduction based on the +adjustment, or something more elaborate?

The formula is, essentially, as follows:

[NonECL XP] * ([XP required for next non-ECL level] / [XP required for next ECL level])

In other terms, the XP is reduced by a percentage equivalent to the difference between the amount of XP required to level a non-ECL character versus the ECL character.  This percentage differs depending on the ECL.  For example, a tiefling has a greater percentage of XP (being only ECL +1) than a half-demon (being ECL +4).

...Is it sad that this question just brightened my mood?

My comment was more a satirical comment, a mockery of all the comments that are whining about anything in this thread, or snide remarks veiled as something clever or 'funny' (when they are not). If anyone took them as me wanting to trim anything down, or pick on the race/gender groups mentioned, that was not the intention.

But I honestly am tired of the attitudes for another reason: a lot of people have been dealing with them in-game as OOC dislikes disguised/agendas played through characters ICly.  If anyone wants to have an agenda in-game, can it not be something positive, like starting a faction or group for something, versus antagonizing things that people OOCly dislike?  

It is something that has been tying into the general issues in another thread that has recently been derailed.

~Arya

See, this is where we divide. I don't see why "Cantina" is used as a detrimental commentary on that style of play/worldbuilding. I personally LIKE that style. As I said, anything less doesn't really feel like fantasy to me. It feels too "normal" or "mundane", rather than the fantastical otherworldliness that I generally associate with the fantasy genre.

It also probably has a heavy bearing on what one's introduction to fantasy was. If you're introduced via Tolkien or something like him, then yeah I can see why you'd be drawn to the Standard Seven. My introduction to fantasy was Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI. I think that's one of the reasons that I'm more accepting of weirdness - racial and mechanical - in fantasy and why games and settings without it seem bland to me. To quote someone from the Paizo forums, "Robotz and Lazorz" in my fantasy doesn't bother me (much the opposite actually), and neither does a vast, varied, alien array of bizarre creatures as your standard cast, instead of a handful of "normal", mostly-human-looking people set in a world that is otherwise only populated by monsters to be killed.

 First.. I point to the disclaimer. That pretty much says to me.. Hey..letss have a nerdy conversaions about ECL. I never comment on these as I care far more about what dress my girls have on then game mechanics. I am sure I have some that couldn't hit the proverbial potato farmer.  I had one ECL, a drow, and I don't play her as I couldn't get a hold on her character.  

Second.. My personal opionion is that they are a nice concept.. but I know that in my head I think.. if that person who is like a +4 comes with we can do this dungeon instead of this lower one. I know that at times I have thought.. Wow.. +5 to strength.. *sighs* So.. they are a great concept, absolutly awesome if you can play them right, but the uncommon is very common here. Do I really care, no not really. I have more issue with people wearing white after Laborday. 

Third..Why I am actually posting is that this has turned into something that this shouldn't have. That general attitude that is going on and/or snarkyness. This had become a great example of the current state of attitude. 

We are adults. Have I had problems.. oh yes I have, and have I been an ass about it? Again a big yes. And for all of my woes I am sorry about my behavior, but from that I leaned to go take a breather, have a cookie, and come back when your not suffering a case of chapped ass. 

I do not care if you are for or against, or  like me with a nice Switzerland, lets just get along. And that was my two cents. 

The above is the exact sort of thing I wanted to see in this discussion from the start. I now have a much clearer perception of Edge's view and it came without snark, personal attacks or argument.

And yes, that's completely where we divide. My gateway to fantasy was very "tolkien", jumping from the Warhammer-themed HeroQuest boardgame (at age 8 or 9 - dating myself here for the curious) right into the 1st edition AD&D books, where there weren't yet any campaign settings and everything was very tolkien and legend/mythological-based. I can completely understand where you are coming from, having experienced the sources of your fantasy introduction (but I'm also one of those weirdos who prefers Chrono Cross to Chrono Trigger XD).

-

I plugged Bella's formula into a spreadsheet comparing XP values for both non-ecl and ecl. For the curious:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vwmeJKaRfDSIlHSwd9zT2RQelqHWt4OU6TXiXzMtWEg

Here are the takeaways:
-The total XP to cap out is the same for ECL+0 and ECL+1. In fact, for ECLs higher than +1, it actually takes *less* total xp (this is because they all start at level 2 regardless of ECL, effectively getting "free levels").
-The harsher XP penalties are in the early levels and relax the higher in level one gets. Since the biggest tax occurs in the window where one can still earn XP from random monster kills, it isn't as heavy handed.

You're fine in enjoying the Fantasy you want to enjoy. Everyone has their preference; but preference doesn't always make a stable setting - especially in a game as old as NWN, with a small enough community that everyone's so set in their ways.

The implicit point in the poll, as far as I understood it, was to gauge peoples' perspectives on ECL in relation to the setting that we're playing in. You can like lasers and robots, but why would I want to see that in Faerun? In Cormyr, of all places?

I'm not arguing for or against any kind of preference, insulting anyone's disposition, or critiquing the players. Definitely not critiquing the server, for that matter - it is what it is, and by this point? We all play here with some semblance of understanding how it's run. What we should call into question is how to best maintain the integrity of the server, which some posts have touched on, and how best to enhance the setting. If that's more ECL? Great. Less? We should be open to that, too. Should there be a big banner with bold letters saying that this server is loosely inspired by Faerun/FR, but has since diverged into its own realm of craziness? Maybe!

Moral: As long as there's consistency, transparency, and civility... it'll all be fine. Whatever the preference

EDIT: For the record, I voted "I have no issue with the current implementation, but IC attitudes are too lenient"

My personal opinion is that the server as-is is fine, and players should - within a certain level of reason, which the Admins determine - be allowed to play mostly whatever they like. Might it not be as far-out as some of the things I'd enjoy, like dropping in a bit of Paizo's Numeria? No, because Faerun's pretty clearly set to not have any technology above the very basic gunpowder level. The mention of high-tech sci-fantasy was more for context regarding my personal opinions and experience with the genre than a suggestion or request for the server - I know better than to ask for certain things.

But I don't think setting a heavy limiter on races back toward Middle-Earth expy is appropriate either, as Faerun is a higher-magic and more varied world than Tolkien.

I don't believe the current volume of exotic creatures - all of which have been stated or reasonably inferred to exist in the setting - is anywhere near breaching the sanctity of the setting, especially since we've diverged so much from Faerun as-written, and because of my earlier commentary regarding player actions and perceptions with regard to exotic races.


Since so much of the "too lenient" attitude toward exotic races is a direct result of characters - a great many of them NOT exotic races in themselves - treating their exotic cousins with a non-hostile attitude, I'm loathe to enforce a change in that perception and reaction otherwise. The only real way to change that IC action is to have people create a swathe of new PCs that enforce that sort of behavior and/or convince other, older characters to act likewise. Even then, with the addition of Stonehaven - built by an exotic PC, home to many other exotic PCs who walk openly because the city's founding laws protect them doing so - I don't think any large-scale attempts to enforce anti-exotic-PC hostility will carry much weight except with brand-new, lower-level characters who can't reach Stonehaven (since the carriages don't go there).

Otherwise, as FW said, just because most PCs are pretty accepting of the weirder PCs doesn't mean most NPCs are, especially in the core parts of the setting - Arabel and Suzail, the elven parts of the forest, and a few other cities/locations. That's the task of the DMs to maintain that portion of the setting, where applicable. For PC to PC interaction, it's really a matter of personal (IC) tastes and beliefs.

You have something off.The XP percentage is recalculated each level.  For example, for an ECL +1 character, they begin with 1000 flat XP.  Each XP amount (farmed or DM given) is then adjusted as:  [amount] * (2000/3000) for levelling from 2-3.  They need 2000 XP normally, but to reach level 4 xp wise is 3000 xp.  I think.  I don't know for sure, as this is Vincent's area of expertise.

Bella is correct, their XP is modified by the following formula: XP * Level/Level+ECL = Actual XP.  This compresses the amount of xp you should need, into the amount of XP that NWN thinks you need. For example, as an ECL 2 to go from 2nd level to 3rd, NWN thinks you need to earn 2000 xp (going from 1000 to 3000). However, you're really level 4, and should need to earn 4000xp (going from 6000 to 10000). Thus, it multiplies everything you earn by (2/4) or .5.

The only time it doesn't work is level 1, but we had specific code in for that. CD originally started everyone with 3000xp, modified  such that an ECL +4 would start at level 1 with 188xp, because they need 16,000xp to reach level 2+4=6, and all their xp gains were multiplied by 1/16th.

This also meant that, as you were considered level 5 by the engine, you'd get roughly 1xp per monster you killed. People complained endlessly about it, and it was eventually changed. You'd probably also get 1xp or less per tick (that system wasn't around back then).

I should also note that people should be careful if they decide to create intolerant characters. It's fine for your character to dislike, and actively avoid/exclude strange races, if you're consistent about it.

...That said, we don't want anyone trying to be the RP police, who PVP/harass and generally try to actively exile anyone from Arabel, or the like (or worse, hunt them down outside) just because they're a freak.

I should also note that my personal view on things is that the setting does not conform to what I'd planned, and that I'd prefer people act a little more carefully when they're a weird race. I play one, but it's one that's constantly concealed save to a few specific individuals on particular occasions, even as it drives her roleplay both past and present.

I'm also the one who wouldn't put eastern weapons in the stores, because this is the Heartlands, not Kara-Tur. *sticks tongue out at Edge*  

That's exactly what I modeled, though?

If 2/4 is the rate of xp acquisition at level 2 for an ECL+2, they need 4/2 more xp than usual, or 4000 (2000x4/2).
If 3/5 is the rate of xp acquisition at level 3 for an ECL+2, they need 5/3 more xp than usual, or 5000 (3000x5/3).
If 4/6 is the rate of xp acquisition at level 4 for an ECL+2, they need 6/4 more xp than usual, or 6000 (4000x6/4).
And so on.

Effectively the way it is scripted is an ECL is "level shifted". Since the actual experience is not adjustable on a character-by-character basis, the scripted in "experience adjustment" is so you are effectively still earning the xp you would need were you actually that higher level.

It may say you need 2000 more xp to level at level 2, but you effectively need to earn 4000.

---

Interesting about the level 1 oddity, but wouldn't it have been 1/5 under the formula presented, not 1/16?

It would suck to get low experience from monster kills, but you are effectively level 5, after all? Probably an issue because of the xp scaling, but if you hunted the same monster as a "normal" level 5, wouldn't it give out the same "1 xp per kill".

This is more of a question to Edge, but, don't you think that instead of expanding the Standard Seven, CD might just be developing its own Standard Seven?  Instead of human, elf, half-elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, half-orc, we sort've have human, elf, half-elf, halfling (maybe), dragon-blood, fiend-blood, drow.   With dwarf occasionally becoming a flavor of the month then disappearing again.

Fire Wraith: Hey I'm not the one who complained about that. The one Kara-Turan weapon-using character I made was her own dang blacksmith.


Kind of like how 4E tried to shake it up by removing Gnome and Half-Orc and replacing them with Tiefling and 4E Dragonborn?

I'm a hardcore Dresden Files fangirl, and loved, loved, LOVED the way fey were represented in the series. I take a little bit of that into account when playing my fey, but also use a lot of fey lore from various cultures. I play her not for the bonuses (there honestly aren't many), but more because I love fey and the concepts that can go into their creation and personalities.

And on an semi-unrelated note - I met Jim Butcher at Dragon*Con. Had my pic taken with him, and he signed my copy of Skin Game. I thought I was gonna pass out. Never been so happy to wait in line for two hours in my life.

No, it would be 1/16th, because you're trying to cram 16000xp into 1000xp, because you're not just going from 1+4=5 to 2+4=6, you're covering the entire span from 0 to 16,000, which is the xp that an ECL+4 character would need to earn 2nd level in a regular game.

And yes, if you hunted level 5 stuff, it would give you the regular level 5 xp... but also at 1/16th the normal rate, so you'd likely not see much difference. You're also going to have a very hard time killing it, because your stats do not make up for those 4 levels worth of hp, AB, feats, etc.

Yeah Shezzarin is in a similar boat, with some adlibbing as Killoren aren't really drawn from any specific real-world faerie lore. I also pulled pretty liberally from Dresden for my Kingmaker game that I'm running right now for my PnP group; the game would be significantly different without that experience and perspective to draw on, I'm sure.


Envy!

Okay, that makes sense. I hadn't taken into consideration the "back payment" of levels 1-4.

If you were going to just "hand wave" those levels, though, why the decision not to just stick to the formula and 1/5 model (and just ignoring the first four levels of experience)? Not that starting at level 2 was a horrible compromise or anything, I'm just curious.

Edit: I actually thought it over and it was probably an adapted script from something already developed, so just skipping level 1 and all the exceptions was probably less hassle than reverse engineering?

Nope, Fire wrote the ECL adjustment himself, and we attached it into the PW XP system that I had previously tweaked for Myth Drannor.
It more or less works exactly as ECL does in PnP, but when starting at level 1, due to how the math works, as Fire pointed out, you mostly end up getting 1xp/kill.  Starting at level 2 was a compromise we made as having to slay 1000 rats just really sucks and is not fun (I did it more than once.)

But to otherwise clarify any other mechanical misunderstandings about ECL.  ALL parts of the xp system take your ECL into account, this includes xp gained from kills, the autofaery, DM rewards, scripted quest rewards, the soft RP cap at level 8, the ascension cap at level 20 and the hard cap at level 30.  
The merchant store tiers and custom ILR code also takes ECL into account.  
Really, the only thing that does not, is encounter spawns, as the default NWN encounter setup has no way of knowing you have an ECL.  Were I inclined to re-do all of our spawns with a custom system like NESS, perhaps that could change, but as I do not generally put in scaled encounters, this isn't really an issue anyway.
Loot ignores your level too, just to clarify that. The possible contents are based upon variables I set on the container, not upon who opens it.

Someone's feeling ambitious.  It's actually a really good system once you learn what all the tags and switches can do.  

Let me just sidetrack for a moment and say that I appreciate the systems in place being explained in detail. For those of us who hate being "in the dark", the transparency is refreshing (especially when I have played on servers where they closely guard any information about them like they're trade secrets or something).

My intent (as I originally scripted it) was they should have to go through and earn the same xp.  Unfortunately it doesn't work terribly well in practice...

Also, the 'spawning lower level stuff' mostly works against them, as it makes it harder to earn xp soloing (you spawn less/weaker stuff that doesn't earn as much as it would for a non-ECL), though groups help a lot with that. We've been trying to get away from dynamic NWN spawns, and sticking with static groups, since the treasure generated for an area is level agnostic, the spawns should be too.

Personally, I think the ECLs should all just start off at the same xp level relative to non-ECLs, quit whining, and get back to rat genocide. ^.^

I personally wouldn't have a major complaint if the higher-end ECLs started off at level 1 again. Most of them have something - DR, regen, etc. - that makes them near-impossible to kill for the few dungeons on CD intended for that level.

Granted, the monotony does get kind of boring. You pretty much have rats (and bandits), ants, and ghosts until you hit level 5 or 6 and can take on goblins. (And actually FINISHING the goblins tends to require a full party around level 8, due to the half-orcs in the latter half.) Dangit, now I'm considering making one or two lowbie dungeons to fill in that gap.

Generally, someone that applies for and is accepted for an ECL has friends that they will inevitably fit in with IC'ly, which makes the level they start out at irrelevant.  In my opinion.  I wouldn't have minded starting out at 1 even when I was forced to level Bass for the most part, on his own.

So, just to clarify further, is there an explanation as to why ECLs still hit the soft cap at level 8 instead of X+ECL= 8? Sure, they get to 8 fairly slowly, but surprise, +4 is actually level 12 when they have to start earning RP XP.

Please no lowbie dungeons. If your character manages to get into a run at the bandits or even Ogre Lord's out the gate with another group, you can pretty much just jump right to level 5-6.

We need more mid to epic level dungeons, imo. It's essentially this atm:

Sunken Keep
Bandits-> Maybe Ogre Cave
Wyvernspur Crypt
Ogre Lord's Redoubt
Frost Giants
Gnolls


The monotony may be broken by doing Bugbears or the Drow in the Semberholme or travelling to the Tower of Ruin or Lightning Peak, but I'd say those six definitely have a monopoly on dungeons right now for the majority of a character's lifespan while lower level dungeons are only ran a couple of times(aside from soloing goblins just for gold when a character can).

Edit: I have some notes in my DM log that have some insight into what players don't want to see more of in dungeons when I went around asking.

I can't speak for others but I personally don't approve of this sort of insta-leveling. Feels too much like cheating to me. If you can't meaningfully contribute to participating in the dungeon (due to level, not due to other factors - if you're an enchanter in a dungeon full of undead, for example), you shouldn't be there, you should be in some place that's made for your level.

There's obviously some give here, I mean I'm not gonna see an issue if someone's taking a level-10/12 or so character through Ogre Lords because if nothing else they can at least provide buffs or healing while hiding invisible at the back of the group. But a fresh newbie character just out of the creation cage? No, there's not going to be jack that a character like that can contribute to a run like that at that level.

Though I suppose that could explain the lack of complaining about the monotony of low-level dungeons, if everyone's just hyper-bypassing them as quickly as possible by riding the coattails of a high-level party through a dungeon that would otherwise eat them alive.

So am I the odd man out in this? Is this common practice here and only those newbies who don't yet have friends to haul them through higher-level dungeons and me and anyone else who disapproves of this practice are the only ones still running the rats and ants and ghost house at low levels? I'm not so naive as to have never thought it happens - I've been part of far too many DM/admin conversations on the subject - but I never thought it was exactly common, much less accepted; it always seemed one of those things that if people did it, they didn't talk about it, lest they bring attention to themselves for it.

I don't know whether or not it's common practice, but ... I generally wont tell a lower level character I'm Roleplaying with and decide to go kill things, they can't go because they're too inexperienced.  It does depend on the particular character, but almost always I'll invite people.  I don't let mechanics or levels determine my party.  For instance, just did Frost Giants with three there were > 15.  The roleplay is what matters to me.

I'm fully willing to admit I've been out of the loop for a couple years now, so I wouldn't be surprised if the general opinion toward this sort of thing has changed. As far as I remember, before my latest sabbatical, I don't know if it was outright banned but it was generally frowned upon, at least by the staff: I recall numerous discussions among the DMs and admins that essentially all began "So-and-so is power-leveling their buddies by running them through [insert higher-level dungeon here]!!!" Like I said, that mindset and opposition may have changed.

It's extremely common place. There are a couple of factors beyond the whole monotonous nature of killing rats and goblins all day. Beyond what Dom above has already said about roleplay and not worrying too much about levels, there is also an extremely poor ratio of low levels-to-mid levels, and you're never going to see that ratio change unless you either get a flux or new people, or a group of old veterans suddenly decide on new alts. Right now as I type this post, there are seven people logged onto CD. Of all of them that could fit in the "lower level range" (1-9), how many are there? None. The lowest level on at the time of this post is a level 10. You're not going to see a group of mid level characters run a couple of low level dungeons just because you have one party member who is level 5, 6, maybe even 7, and yet you don't really want to exclude that person either because you'd feel bad, feel like a jerk, whatever the reasoning might be.

But anyways this is derailing the point of the thread.

From what I understand (and have seen), if the level disparity is too much, the lower level character won't gain xp (aside from the fairy ticks) from the dungeon run.  Money, sure... but money can only go so far when you're a lowbie.

Hmm. Yeah, that's a point I hadn't considered. Fair enough. Thanks for the fill-in, like I said I'm a bit out of the loop on how the community's developed the past year or two.

On the tangent of dungeon runs, I've played "take what I can get" when it came to any of my characters. When I first started out (about two years ago now...I think?) I had a lot of IC direction to various low level dungeons and did a few small outings either solo or with players.

Something like a year past that, it seems other characters were given more lenience. We're not even talking about some lowbie being blitzed through Wyvernspur or Ogres - a single tromp through the Bolthole or one go at the Witch Keep with a mid/high level character or two was enough to boost 3-4 levels at a time.

The issue (as was pointed out above) is that levels are always in flux at the mercy of the playerbase, and aside from new influx, those numbers get ever higher. Sure, it feels bad when one is "carried", but when it's a choice between jumping in with the only available run and doing a soulless rpless solo run of appropriate level, the choice is clear. Higher levels are going to do what interests them, and they're not going to always feel like guiding a lower character through something more geared toward them. The times that has happened has been rare, butappreciative - I can vividly recall Marziima "babysitting" lowbies through a rp-screen of wanting to observe, letting loose a few buffs and then just trailing along invisible (how boring must have that been?)

I think there are a good selection of low-level dungeons that when the stars do align and a like-minded group of appropriate level wants to go through them, they can.

Makes sense. Admittedly my opinion/experience on the subject is hampered by most of my playing being during higher-volume years, so I'm not really fully adjusted to the lower-population playerbase of the current, and the necessities and alterations of expectation that would come with it - such as this.

Aw, that's was fun for me. Taking lowbies to a place maybe they couldn't handle on purpose so that he could "sell" them wards so they could overcome it! It was fun RW play and potential hiring play for me.

Well good, because it left a positive impact.

Vincent tells me this isn't the case. I'm not allowed to mess with the scripts since I tend to break stuff he has to fix, and well, if you'll pardon me I need to relocate, the murdergolems have locked onto my current location.

As regards the bit about grouping and leveling with level disparity, I'm of mixed minds about it.

On one hand, we want to encourage group involvement, roleplaying, and character development. I find this happens more in groups than by people forced to solo, and if it's a matter of "You can't come with us, we're going to a non-lowbie dungeon, go farm rats by yourself", I'd much rather have the lowbie go along. This is often the case, because there aren't always enough players of lower level for lots of purely lowbie groups to form.

That said, it's not the intent to just have someone powerleveled with no interaction or involvement at all. I've never wanted people to fixate on the levels, because if anything they're a distraction from the real focus, which is characters and stories. I feel very strongly that trying to boost your levels without any sort of concomitant character development is cheating yourself (and those around you to a degree) of the full experience and enjoyment of the game.

The level limit rules are there to try and balance these two imperatives. They're not exact, and function more as an averaging device. For instance, grouping a level 20 and a level 3 means no xp, but if it's one level 20 and five level 3s, that may be a different story. Basically we're aiming more for the scenario where one player is the odd person out, and we don't want them being left behind solely for that reason, while at the same time trying to discourage the "I have a high level character, let me powerlevel my one OOC friend" - in order to do that, you have to take others along, and make it a social thing.

It's not perfect, but nothing ever is 100%.

Did we get the upgraded versions yet or are we still running Murdergolem 2008 Edition?

So why do I need to be level 12 before my aasimar has a chance to get wings (back) when they can get them by level 3 in the core books?  I'm kinda required to focus on level, in this case.  

I remember when we did the change, though I can't recall the reason. I was never immensely fond of the change myself, but it's me so that's not surprising =)

I'm pretty sure it was done to make them 'work for it' and reduce the number of winged PCs hanging around, both for aesthetic and balance reasons (At-will Flight makes dungeon design annoying).  Reasons I agree with and find perfectly understandable, mind you...

...of course, then everyone started playing avariel, half-dragons, and other races that get wings at level 1, which made the whole point moot anyway, and most people have access to Fly spells or potions or a dozen uses of Dimension Door, even if they don't have wings.

To quote myself for those who missed it:




So, an ECL 4 PC would hit that first soft cap at level 4. (4 +  4 ECL = 8 )
They then hit ascension cap at 16, and the final hard stop at 26.

Also, to add to my above quote:  Level requirements for feats are based off of your Hit-die (class levels).  This is a .2da line entry and can not take your ECL into account.

Or even Alter Self, which can be accessed very early and can grant flight.

I actually always liked that about CD though - that there were dungeons that took flight/DD/etc. into account. Places like that one Semberholme dungeon where there's a couple of chests that have to be flown/DD'd to if you want them, or that one central part of the dwarven crypt.

They don't and never have hit the soft cap before vanilla races. They now hit it at level 8 since the last previous change. None of my ECLs have hit cap before any of my other characters, and I'm certain newer ECLs haven't hit cap sooner(because some of them have out leveled a toon I've gotten full EXP on everyday if you count their ECL).

Then that is a bug and will be fixed shortly.

Because some people want to short circuit the character development that's supposed to accompany these sorts of things, and thus we impose a brake on that.

That, uh, kind've directly contradicts what you said the first time.

I've never wanted people to fixate on the levels, because if anything they're a distraction from the real focus, which is characters and stories.
So we're going to lock this piece of the character's story behind a level cap to 'make sure you have time to properly develop it.'  You don't get a choice in deciding when your character is ready for it.  If you're ready early you're forced to stall for what may be several levels, and stalling IC progress because of an OOC reason is almost never good roleplay.

 I feel very strongly that trying to boost your levels without any sort of concomitant character development is cheating yourself (and those around you to a degree) of the full experience and enjoyment of the game.
So let's make a case where it's required to hit a certain level to gain a new aspect to the character, and let's make that level requirement higher than every prestige class except Heirophant, encouraging people who really want that aspect to use every trick in the book from powergrinding to gaming the XP system to hit it as fast as possible so the aspect is there when they need it.


I'd like to comment that I don't have an issue with the level cap, I just have a problem with the fact that cap is behind a 15,000 DM XP wall, being at level 12 on an ECL +1 race.  Level 9 I would be fine with, since that's still a little later than most prestige classes but well reasonable.  I'd also like to point out that half-dragons, half-fiends, and half-celestials often don't have wings either, but on CD they almost always do.  If you want to cut back on wings on CD, this is a good starting point.

Only partially correct. The half-dragon template normally only grants wings to Large creatures or larger; I believe the main reason that was amended on CD was to keep the template on-par with the Dragon Disciple class (or vice versa), which does grant wings regardless of the character's size.

Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial templates, however, always grant a Fly speed, and the necessary associated appendages.

I was in a dungeon party not too long ago where 5 out of 7 characters had wings. I laughed IRL at all the wing stretching emotes, and thought the idea of it was funny, but in the end, I had a good time.

I RUFFLE MY WINGS AT YOU SIR

I would just like to add that I think fixing this bug, as Vince said he'll do, will do more to reduce the number of ECL races than almost anything we could have proposed in this thread.

I don't think it'll drop that much, but that might simply be because of my own preferences as already discussed, and the fact that thinking such a fix was already in place - I wasn't aware that the soft cap hadn't been lowered, as it's been a while since I had a low-level character with an ECL - hasn't stopped me in the past. I imagine many other people who prefer exotic characters are the same way, though likely not all.

I would just like to see people quit worrying about what others play, and just focus on playing in the server, themselves...and finding ways to enjoy the server, at this point.  

Sincerely,
Arya

Amen to that.

THIS.

AND THIS.

Yes, this has gotten a bit off topic, and in general, I think the important things are covered.

I'll just make one last point about levels, stories, characters, and so on.

The focus is on the story, yes. It's on the development of the character, and their interactions with the people around them.  That said, this is not a level-free environment. We could easily achieve that by artificially setting everyone to a given level, or just making CD a level-cap style server, where everyone powerlevels to (or is given outright) the "target" level.

It's not.

Part of your character's story is their journey, their development from being a rookie, to a veteran, to being someone of considerable power. To this end, D&D, and NWN, tie many things to your level, including spells, feats, and other abilities. We made a conscious choice to make Tiefling and Aasimar wings part of this.

We don't believe you should need any of these things to be able to roleplay and have fun. Are they nice to have? Sure. But don't expect us to be terribly sympathetic if you design a character that violates these, any more than designing a character that's supposed to already be an Archmage. If anything, we're going to suggest coming up with a reason for why your character lost whatever it was they had, and needs to gain them back - but we're not going to alter the system itself unless there's a compelling reason, and I really don't see one here, since I can't think of anyone else in the 9 years this has been a feat on CD having an issue with it.

Furthermore, if anything it's a lot easier to achieve level 12 now than it was 9 years ago when CD was built, due to changes in the XP structure. While the ECL originally didn't count towards when you started to hit the RPXP gating, that RPXP gating also started at 7th level, and there was no "XP fairy", so if you had the misfortune to be unlucky in your play times vs those of the more active DMs, it was much harder to pass those levels.

Now, it's certainly possible to disagree with our logic - but there is a logic to it, and it's applied equally to everyone, whether it's myself or Vincent playing one, an old veteran, or a brand new person that never set foot in CD before a month ago.

I do disagree with your logic, which is why I'm arguing with it. The only problem I have with this post in relation to the current issue is the 'come up with a compelling reason why they lost it, then get it back' - That works fine for mental aspects, like feats or languages or class levels, but doesn't work quite as well for physical body parts.  I do promise that I'm going to drop the wings issue though - It's ultimately an extremely niche issue that hasn't come up before because I'm probably the first one to come up with a situation where it would matter.  It just annoyed me because I was told level 9 before I made the character, then the person who told me (I shall not name them; politeness!) remembered it was level 12 only after I hit level 6 and asked why I couldn't take the prerequisite feat (which had been moved to 9).  That alone told me this is probably one of those things that's never come up before.  It introduced a whole lot of holes into the story I'd decided to go with (which thankfully nobody has yet brought up ingame, because I don't have a good explanation for them) and generally made things more difficult.

I do have a final thought on the general ECL race topic, but that will come later, once my hair has be en cut and new pants have been purchased.  Priorities!

"The focus is on the story, yes. It's on the development of the character, and their interactions with the people around them."  - Fire Wraith
"Because some people want to short circuit the character development that's supposed to accompany these sorts of things, and thus we impose a brake on that." - Fire Wraith

How do you justify the presence of half-dragon when these are the philosophies you follow?  Half-dragon pretty much exists as a replacement for the Dragon Disciple prestige class.  The problem here is that the Dragon Disciple class lends itself much, much better to character development and storytelling than the half-dragon race because it requires a character to develop and tell a story as they level up in the class.  And it works too - I've seen some very strong roleplaying from dragon disciples as they go through their changes.  It's a class that's not only great for roleplaying but generally fairly solid on a mechanical level too, if you plan around it.

Half-Dragon being an option for an ECL race eliminates all that.

Instead of developing and growing as a character, they start out with all that potential growth and development done offstage, short-circuiting the character development of the dragon disciple.  The changes, the growth, the emotions that come with such a transformation, they don't exist.  The character was always that way.  Further, since the attitudes of PCs are so lenient towards exotic races, there's rarely any special interactions between half-dragons and other characters since they're common enough to be readily accepted.  And on mechanical terms, they get all the benefits of the full ten-level prestige class for only a three level penalty, which is a 70% discount - There's not even a prerequisite class like Dragon Disciple has (so it's more of a 73% discount).

If it truly "eliminated all that", then you'd never have people taking the class. And given how many DD's I've seen on login just in the week or two I've been back, somehow it doesn't seem to be happening. And frankly "well they're just doing it so they don't have to put in the application" doesn't really cut it. I can pretty much guarantee you even if FW and Vince threw open the doors and all you had to do to get an exotic race was sign on the dotted line, no muss no fuss, that you'd still have people taking the PrC instead.

The two provide very different origin points for roleplay, different backstory seeds and plot hooks, and there are times when one will be more or less appropriate than the other for a given character.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

It's what I do.  I have it printed on my business card.  'Mountains out of Molehills!  Inquire today!'

When you post things like this it makes it very difficult to take any argument you make seriously. This will be my only contribution to the thread.

Trylo, I will be honest with you here.

Right now, it almost sounds like the argument is more about being upset at what cannot be had, instead of seeing it as an opportunity to obtain it over time.  And thus all these other ECL races need all this scrutiny because they have what your chosen ECL does not have.  If you feel that strongly about the topic, why did you not start with half-celestial? Or just wait until level 12? 

Have you thought that maybe the ECL limitations over all are part of why tieflings and aasimars do not start out with wings? The +1 ECL versus the +4 or +3 that these other ECLs have?  I admit, I am trying very hard to pay attention to this thread, but I do not remember this part being discussed. If so, forget I said anything on that topic. >.>

~Arya

That's because I'm blending arguments together.  Essentially, I'm expressing annoyance at two things, but they're related so I link them together.

1)  I think ECL races are too common in general, especially higher-ECL (and thus 'rarer') races.  I also think they're too powerful for their price.
2)  I'm annoyed at the level requirement for aasimar/tiefling wings because the arguments I was given as to why the requirement is there do not make sense in light of other decisions.

So I can see how you'd get that perception.  I'm actually arguing two different topics, but they're close enough that I argue them at the same time.

And to SinisterOmnibus:  I sometimes need to remind myself that I shouldn't take this half as seriously as I do.  'S why I make posts like that.

There is also this: it is better to just play what you want, and live by the standards you set yourself, instead of expecting others to comply.

I have to take that attitude with the elves - especially since there is at least one or two people who would easily point three fingers at me because I play a more liberal elf.  But I used to get very annoyed sometimes at the forlorn that are about (they make my liberal seem conservative!), and how it feels like they have no acknowledgement or even curiosity of their heritage. I have reduced -a lot- of frustration by just choosing to play what I want to play, live to the standards I want to see, versus expecting others to do the same.  Then owning it when I do break my own 'rules' (which are almost more like guidelines, anyway).  Some people respect me for it, some people hate how I view things.  It is what it is.  

I just think doing that would make a lot of people -much- happier here if they just be the thing they want to see in the server, as opposed to expecting others to be that.

Sincerely,
Arya

See...what bothers me about this is that I keep seeing it from people who either have had ECL characters before, or, you know, recently created one. Seems...what's the word...

hypocritical?

You know, I've said a million times before that I don't like Half-Dragons as they currently stand.

But I'm not the only one who gets to make that decision, and thus I have to do something that you might do well to do, which is to state my piece, and then make my peace with what the sense of the others is.

It in no way changes my mind about the wing requirements for Aasimars and Tieflings - if anything, it does the opposite.

So I have to ask. Trylo, what are you hoping to accomplish here?

Are you trying to change the staff's mind about how the ECL system and exotic race system is done? Because I'm pretty sure back at the beginning of the thread it was made quite clear that no changes would be made, and that the purpose of this thread was not to lobby for such changes.

Or are you just venting?

Mostly venting.  Going to stop for now, though.  There's enough going on that I don't need to add to it.