Cormyr and the Dalelands

So, one of my pet peeves that is starting to grow more and more as I play on this server is the ability to metagame information about a character based on OOC information that you cannot control. Now, I know that generally we trust the players around us not to metagame things but the fact of the matter is that not 100% of people will separate their OOC knowledge from their IC knowledge - sometimes it's less intentional (for example yesterday when I had to stop myself from accidentally giving information that my character wouldn't know) and other times it's more blatant (such as inspecting a character to decide whether or not your character is willing to risk a fight, doing /listpcs just to see what level someone is or even checking someone's immunities to get an idea what race they are, and some people checking log in to get a general idea of a character's build and classes).

There's a few solutions available that are generally pretty simple and help prevent this sort of thing, and I've seen multiple servers implement this with relative ease - it's not really hard work and generally helps bring things in to IC a bit more rather than OOC.

1) Remove the list of buffs and debuffs at the bottom of a character's description.
   -This is generally a good thing since it's the quickest and easiest way of metagaming someone's race or strengths, allowing you to plan exactly the easiest way to screw them over.

2) Remove the 'Challenge Rating' at the start of a character's description.
   - Doing this will essentially make everyone "Just people" rather than a "Level 90 Dwarven War Princess with ultimate powers". The way people react to them is based on how they perform in battle and the reputation that they build with people around them, rather than inspecting them - seeing "impossible" and then deciding it's not really worth it or visa versa, challenging anyone with a rating of "Challenging" or lower to a fight since you can likely take them.

3) Remove character levels on log-in.
   - To clarify, it's the text underneath the name with the class names and amounts of levels that I'm talking about. This is basically just another way to stop people from getting a general idea of what kind of character you're playing based on OOC knowledge and keeps it restricted to what they learn IC.

These are basically just some quality of life changes that I think would be good and would all over help to prevent deliberate or accidental metagaming. Thoughts? ^^

I would like to see this happen. These things have only ever led to metagaming on every server I've seen them on.

forums.cormyrdalelands.com/index.php?topic=356

It's been discussed to death before.  So far, the policy is "punish the few offenders rather than those who use it legitimately."  That's generally the approach the staff takes to pretty much everything.

To be fair, that was posted and finished around the time I started. So I don't think I could have been expected to know about that thread, but thank you for linking it!

I've had a read through a lot of it, and it seems to be the major arguments for it is: It helps people gather parties and, as you stated, we can punish the offenders instead of removing temptation.

The problem with the latter, in my opinion, is that metagaming isn't always apparent or obvious - someone starts avoiding your character because they've realized you're a vampire on an OOC level not an IC one, and thus you as a player are now short of some RP because somebody decided not to get involved, because of OOC information. I'm pretty sure this has already happened to me, as a matter of fact, however I cannot prove it as it's something that happens in the background. As for the former, it's rather easy to send someone a tell and ask - or try and stick to level appropriate dungeons, if someone tells you then that's down to them and not you.

If someone wants to specifically avoid you because of what they found on your description, that's their choice. Their loss of RP. No reason to cry over it.

Do you like the character's personality? Sure, play with them. If not, don't.

And the CR is a two-way street. With it, you can use it to know not to provoke someone into PvP. But if you're a high-level epic, you can use it specifically TO provoke someone into PvP. In the end it just saves on some drama and lets you know why someone is being a bully. And then you judge them for that. You judge them for that so hard and then continue on with your life, continuing to play the game with the people you enjoy playing with.

My issue with this is simply this:

You cannot rp with yourself. This is also the problem with the "instead of removing temptation we'll ban the transgressors" mindset. Neverwinter Nights is an old game, and its community is relatively small. Cutting that community down even more by banning people or allowing players to "just deal with it" when it comes to people metagaming and avoiding rp doesn't seem a very proactive solution to me.

Personally, I've already been involved in at least 3 instances where pvp was pushed on a character of mine specifically due to my character showing up as "effortless" or "easy" when someone was reading my bio. In one of these instances the player pushing pvp was beaten and then the ooc tells began. Sigh. At this point, this particular player (not character) seems content to avoid all of my characters out of hand. That sucks since my other characters greatly enjoyed their interactions with some of his/hers.

How did I know the pvp was motivated by the metagamed knowledge of my character's challenge rating? Well, the character in question has a seriously bad attitude with EVERYONE, and yet anyone remotely close to his level (with the notable exception of one person) never takes things to pvp. It's only EVER when I see that they're "Impossible" that the pressure for pvp really gets applied hard.

As per the above, the challenge rating system is a truly obnoxious impediment to immersive rp. Whether my character gets his butt kicked by a higher level or stomps a lower level should be determined by the rp that leads up to such a confrontation, and I should not even be given the temptation (nor the subconscious nudge) to rp my character inconsistently either to avoid confrontation or to push it. So, with this system in place even players who have no intention of metagaming levels of other characters are going to end up doing so without thinking a lot of the time.

Anyway, I'm not sure how involved making this change would be, but as a player I can definitely say I'd like to see it happen. Every server I've played on prior to CD where the challenge rating of players was hidden has - in my opinion - had a much higher immersion to rp than those without.

This exact behavior has, unfortunately, been an issue for a very, very long time.  People usually won't have their characters mouth off to characters that could extinguish them with a thought.

Thus my suggested changes that would eliminate the safety net certainty.

My thoughts on this, which I've stated before:

Don't metagame. Easy as that. Examining a PC and seeing X effect or Y challenge rating, or seeing their level spread on log-in should never change how you react to them, as it is not IC knowledge.

Everything that has been or can be mentioned in this thread has been previously mentioned in the other thread. This has been brought up before on the old forums as well, at least twice. The same conclusion has been come to every time. That's not to say it won't necessarily change (like the conversations about the XP systems, as they've become increasingly lenient over time), but I doubt this conversation will result in any new revelations and changes.

Sure, you can't RP alone, but if they're a PvP-mongering, metagaming jerkwad, why would you want to play with them in the first place? I'm not saying I'm "immune" to the metagaming. I've never been the victim of it (aside from being accused to calling out a much higher-leveled character solely because he couldn't PvP me in that area), despite playing a character of (at the very least) questionable morals with a very public bio. That's not to say that the occasional thought hasn't crossed my mind, but at least then its conscious and not subconscious so I can choose to ignore it.

The level of metagaming paranoia is astounding and has only gotten worse.  I don't even see a use for the Exotic Race forum anymore since everyone just submits privately nowadays. I know it might sound stupid to take it up on yourself (not sarcastic), but if the person was okay with you before, but now they're not, talk to them about it. If they don't want to "work things out" or maybe they just avoided you outright in the first place, they're not worth the effort. Let them be childish and narrowminded and in the mindset that they constantly need to be ahead of everyone else in a game that is in no way competitive.

What it really boils down to is, regardless of players who use it as a legitimate resource vs. those who use it to "cheat", preference. Some people like things one way, other's like them differently. That doesn't make one "better" than the other, it's simply what people feel more comfortable doing.

If there's ONE thing I learned from playing here for the past 6 years, it's to stop worrying about what other people are doing. You just end up bitter and upset with everything. If a few people are going to be spoilsports, don't bother with them. Focus on yourself and having fun, and if someone is constantly provoking you, send them a tell and politely ask them to stop because it's antagonistic and anti-fun.

This is certainly an old conversation, but to a certain degree I for one don't mind discussion now and then - CD is neither a static community, nor a static module.  Things change, and adapt - though they usually do so slowly, and in measured ways, after much consideration, rather than quickly and radically.

For one, I'm not going to say that metagaming outright is a bane and evil thing in all situations - because we have to be careful how we define these things.  For one, the general definition of influencing in-game play and actions with out of character information, I can come up with several instances where it's perfectly legal to do exactly that on CD - such as sending an OOC tell to your friend so you can meet up and roleplay.  I see nothing wrong with consensual metagame information being used to facilitate roleplay, storytelling, and fun.

But the key word there is consensual.  Most of the abusive or objectionable instances of metagaming, or "Where it's a problem", tend to come when you throw competition in the mix (IC and/or OOC).  That part I'd certainly like to minimize, though there are sometimes other concerns as well.

For instance, effects show up on examine (still), in part because we eliminated a lot of the visual effects that would normally correspond with them.  I'm not averse to reconsidering that, but it's something that should be kept in mind as we do so.

Another would be the challenge rating - we've kept it partly because of PC vs NPC (sizing up a monster).

But ultimately, it's going to be possible to metagame to some degree regardless.  The best measure against this, I think, is all of us acting to try and identify when it does pop up, and try to make sure it doesn't unduly influence the course of play, or most important of all, ruin the fun that we're having (since that's the core goal of all CD - for all of us to have fun playing here).

And if anyone does feel like something has gotten out of hand, Vincent and I are usually quite willing/capable of helping track things down and try to put out fires where they crop up (even and especially after the metagaming has "metastasized", i.e., spread from the original metagaming PC to others, who don't realize it's not valid IC information, etc).

The fact that this comes up often also reveals something.  Here's another thread from about a year ago:

www.createforum.com/cormyrdalelands/viewtopic.php?t=19254

Even if someone wanted to avoid seeing a CR, if you want to read a PC's bio, it's right there at the top.  Effects you can get away with not seeing.

From what I understand here are the pros for having visible CR, character levels, effects:
-Easy to party up
-Easy to distribute loot
-Reveals NPC difficulty
-It colors RP
-Info is already provided on the forums in journals and diaries
-Losing gold on death can be rough
-Players should focus on the fun

And the cons of having visible CR, character levels, effects:
-The work load for changing over
-Hampers RP
-Reveals evil class easily
-Examining CR on NPCs doesn't help as they are already up in your business.
-Info posted on the forums is governed by poster where CR and the like are not
-There is an OOC dungeon guide
-Penalty of first death is only gold

Here's one major rule of thumb; will this affect your roleplay? If you want to keep CR and answer no to this question then it's a moot point.  Instead of simply saying, "Just don't meta." why not support those this is affecting?  If you are not affected either way then let's support those people this does affect.  Since the philosophy of the server is to promote fun, let's do that.  It might include removing the CR, effects, and levels in the log in screen (which I can send all the information to change it in a about a minute).

I say give it a try for a bit. See what life is like without a CR, effects, and the like for a bit. It's been revealed on CD for years.  Why not give the other side a try?

I'm not sure if the CR itself reveals evil classes, so much as the display of class levels at the login character select screen does.  If anything I'd want to remove that.  I think that knowing someone's general level (because ECL isn't displayed on either of these) is less of an issue than knowing that friendly Joe Smith is a Rogue/Assassin/Blackguard.

I for one would actually not be against giving the suggestion a shot.  It is one of those cases where I think people can communicate OOCly on a need-to-know basis when it comes to partying with one another.  Truth be told, we do not communicate -enough- on this server regarding our expectations, and expect others to have ESP.  Then act in unhealthy ways when dealing with the frustration that comes from the lack of it (or get condescending sometimes).  

While I am kind of worried about just how paranoid some players here are about the OOC information bit, I also do not think just banning a few offenders is the only solution to this.  It is not a removal that is going to penalise the players in any way, shape, or form.  Not like the several cases I know where something like an item enchantment was banned because there was a concern about abuse from one or two (regardless of what the truth of the case was). That ruling seemed to come about as a "everyone had to pay the price for the actions of the few" - I strongly opposed it and told the admins as much.  

We all know it is hard to undo OOC information.  Skilled roleplayers can be mindful of it and still interact in a non-harmful way, but others might still act in more subtle manners.  For instance, I was concerned that someone was competitively metagaming a while back when people started to spread rumours on a character of mine about fiendish blood after a succubus accused the person of being a 'sister.'  Most sensible people know succubi are skilled liars, and could be twisting a number of facts up in that situation (and she really did in this case).  It was found out that the  competitive metagaming was not going on, but that could have easily been the situation.  Sometimes, it is not even intentional.  

To use myself as an example again: if I were less insightful, I could easily let my bias against evil characters (and their players) affect my roleplay with others and deliberately avoid evil characters.  We had more history with those than problem 'good' playing players (not that I'd count the few playing a goodie anyway, but that is another subject).  Fortunately enough, I am aware of this to where I can just let the side have its corner in my mind and keep on playing with said people.  And I still count some active playing evils as OOC friends.  Not everyone has that awareness of their own biases, though.  I was fortunate enough to take classes on anthropology, sociology, and postcolonial studies.  Classes that make one aware that everyone is biased, will carry prejudice into situations, etc.  

Sincerely,
Arya

I have always been for this idea, and I continue to think it will be nothing but beneficial in comparison to what we have. You can read my reasons on every thread this has came up on throughout the passed years.

A few points.

1.  Everyone meta games.  It is basic to human Nature. Even if it is limited to simply lookin at what gamespyid is playing a character it ends up influencing us. And if you play on the server much it is pretty easy to tell approximately what  level a PC is.

2.  No matter what is done to mask the game mechanics some people will figure out your character is evil or a vampire or were-penguin. It always happens. And as a result of this there will be some players that will not want to play with your character. Why not?  Because they feel they won't enjoy it. Maybe they are wrong. Maybe they are losing out on some stuff. But in the end it is their time, their fun, and their choice.

3.  Hiding the classes when logging in makes sense to me As it serves no real in game purpose that I can see. Parties get made up of huge level differentials and it doesn't sem to spoil people's fun  

4.  The CRs are kind of a joke anyway. My level 16 mystic theurge is not going to challenge -any- fighter to a duel no matter what level they are. (I actuality can't stand PvP but that is a separate issue). When it comes to monsters it is often not very reliable as a guide. Same with Pcs. Items and buffs make a Huge difference. Most characters in their teens effectively fight 3-5 levels above what is on the sheet due to that factor. So I could see getting rid on this too.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. And this was player daphne not dm daphne.

Thanks for listening!

I have spoken my stance on this a few times as well. The idea and motivation is not one with which I can argue: getting rid of the threat of ooc information being used to metagame. I've played on servers with and without the ooc info, and quite honestly, I have never seen it eliminate metagaming or use of ooc information.

Yes, we will know some ooc information about your character (and we will either way from character bios on the forum, PrC/race requests), however most of us that are playing for fun and enjoyment of the community aren't using it, its just stored knowledge. The people that will use it for unsavory purposes will gather up the information elsewhere and still use it against you, regardless of whatever restrictions are put in place.

I generally try to keep my evil characters' information private to protect them from metagaming, but guess what? It happens. You think someone's RP has changed once they found out ooc that you are a vampire/nymph/werewolf assassin/blackguard of Cyric? Call them out on it IC. Ask their character whats up and see if the RP is there to back it up. Sometimes they have actual IC reasons behind thinking something.

My Banite priest who is -extremely- selective of his confidants  has been called out numerous times over the course of the character's life on his faith and actually called a Banite. I know many good guys that are chomping at the bit for a slip up to bring him down because of ooc knowledge of his faith. Do I avoid their RP? Nope. But what if they stop or change their RP because of it? Adapt. Using this same example character: There was a very good aligned character who had ooc knowledge of his faith (eventually). Did it change their RP? Hell yes it did. Every conversation we were involved in from that point on ended up on faith and prying questions to look for a mistake or inconsistency. So did I avoid the good guy because of it? Nope. My character spent the next few weeks researching faiths, posing as someone else to speak with clergy about their  ideals and stuck it out. Its hardship that creates the best character development (in my opinion, anyway).

The point is, ooc knowledge is a part of the game, be it Neverwinter Nights, tabletop D&D, or any other interactive RPG. If you play a character with a dirty secret, always assume it will eventually get out and figure out how to run damage control. Had it not been for ooc information I would not have known that there was interest in the Zhentarim faction a few times, one quite recently. But it spurred RP and a new connection that may not have been made otherwise.

At the very least, I can agree with removing build information on log-in, as it can be one of the more harmful types. I'm only really opposed to this because I'm curious as hell and like knowing things. But I've been around long enough to know what characters are around what level, who my characters's friends are to determine who I should log on as.

Metagaming from knowing someone's level is one of the trickier ones because it's not something you can really "prove." They offender almost always has plausible deniability and it could be for any number of reasons. That's not to say it's impossible to nail someone, but eh.

The point keeps getting repeated that if someone avoids you intentionally because of some buff they read on your On Examine...well, that's their silly decision to avoid you for it. Once more, I like it because I'm curious. If someone is using that knowledge to get the 1-up on you in PvP, chances are they'd win anyway because they built their character for PvP and most people here haven't.

And of course, hiding levels on the log-in screen is the more difficult one to do.

We have a Dagesh for a reason

A few thoughts, in no order.

1)  Metagaming happens, period, but we seem to be in a new height of fear about it.  Nobody seems to trust anybody else to separate IC and OOC.  What's changed?  I've seen some incredibly damaging things get leaked/metagamed and the issues were resolved without a lot of fuss and bother, and pretty much nobody remembers them anymore.  I very much favor that approach to the problem rather than ham-fisting several systems just because some people sometimes take advantage of it.  Can't we all just be mature adults about this?

2)  Metagaming isn't always bad.  I use the challenge rating to find people about my level when I seek dungeoning companions, for instance, and I've been known to surf the login listings, see who has what classes, and then I know who I can talk to ICly and OOCly when I need a specific but hard-to-find role for a dungeon group (especially a rogue).  I'm perfectly capable of reading this listing without instantly metagaming 'ZOMG X IS A BLACKGUARD' - About the worst I've done is tease friends in tells about obviously cheesey builds.  Also, knowing some information can spur and increase interaction and lead to good roleplay.  If you play some super-special exotic race but nobody knows about it, what have you gained beyond a couple +1s in your character sheet?  It's also common for friends to alert each other of things going on, dungeon groups readying up, or quests a DM is doing, so they can show up and participate.  That's metagaming too, but it's the good kind so we don't mind it as much.

3)  These systems we're looking at are very, very minor sources of metagaming.  I've played here for, mm, 3 years now and I've only very rarely seen people metagame the challenge rating or stuff from the login screen.  Most of the stuff that gets metagamed comes from descriptions, bios, character journals, or OOC communication between players.  Whether a DM made an OOC comment during a quest that people took IC to give someone they don't like a hard time, someone in Skype alerts another player to a quest, prompting them to log in and show up, or a friend sends another friend a tell gossipping about someone in the Square, this is where most of that OOC information originates.  If you really want to see this in action, leave the CR and login screen in place but blank all descriptions, block all tells, and delete the whole character biography forum.  I bet you then that metagaming will be VERY rare.

4)  Not all accusations of metagaming are correct.  Expanding on Thayan's point would be the rumors around his Banite cleric.  One of my characters definitely thinks he is, and if people ask her about the subject she'll tell them she thinks he is.  He could call me out and accuse me of metagaming, because he's never done anything to directly prove to her that he is a Banite...  but he would be wrong, as she's collected enough circumstantial evidence to strongly suspect him of being one.  Her reasons for calling him such are entirely in-character and can be (and have been) explained using entirely in-character logic and events.  So not all metagaming accusations are even accurate so much as someone inadvertently or deliberately pulling the 'metagame' card to avoid ICly-acquired knowledge from being used against them.

It's not about prohibiting or outlawing the action, because that's impossible. The suggestion is to just make the act more difficult to do, which will inherently discourage people from bothering.

It's not a script issue. It's a server client modification if I recall.  I know it got mentioned somewhere before.

This. So much this.

As for the supposition that "everyone meta games," well...yes and no. The mildest forms of metagaming, where we talk oocly to our friends about what we're doing (something that I try very hard to avoid, as anyone who has questioned me oocly as to the motivations of my characters can attest, save for DMs who, well, to be blunt, had a right and a need to ask), asking people on Skype to login and join a quest, or just deciding oocly that you want to run a dungeon, and getting your friends to come join in - okay, sure. Lots of people do those things. I sit next to SO everyday, and we often decide what we're going to do between us. That said, not everyone looks at the CR and decides to pick a fight with someone significantly lower level than them. Not everyone examines the buffs listed after the description and uses that to determine things like subrace, or checks the login screen to know the classes of the people they play with. Personally, I barely glance at that - I make a cursory check to see if there's anyone even on the server, or if there's a DM on if I need one, or if a friend I was looking forward to playing with will be there. That said, in the short time I've been playing this game, I have seen the above several more times than I cared to - not to mention tells with questions about my characters' motivations, or floods of information from people who are excited to share things about their characters (which I politely endure, but honestly, I find it would be best to learn these things in character).

No, eliminating CR and buffs from the description or the classes from the login screen will not stop metagaming entirely - not the "good" kind or the "bad." But it will heavily discourage a lot of the "bad" kind. Dungeon runs can be assembled based on whether or not your characters get along well enough to do these things together - you invite someone, they say yes, you go. All in character. As it is, I've done this before, even when I was told there was a possibility I would not receive XP for it - simply because the invitation was extended to my character. I had fun, regardless - even if it turned out my little lowbie was utterly useless. This can be done all the time, if no one knows automatically "so and so is at least five levels higher than I am." It eliminates a lot of what is frequently excused as "unconscious metagaming" (and sometimes, it is unconscious, but sometimes, it is not). Will metagaming go away entirely? Probably not. But if you're easing players' fears about it by taking this step, isn't it worth cutting it back? Saying, "This isn't worth the time because it will still happen, anyway," is like saying, "Well, putting a law in place to cut back on this kind of crime is pointless, because someone will always do it, anyway - it won't go away completely." It doesn't really make sense.

Not putting pointless laws in place makes perfect sense. If their purpose is just as easily achieved through addressing the person and issue (and adding an admin/staff when needed for mediation) why put in unnecessary blanket code to take away the right of someone else to use it for its intended purpose? The purpose of the code would be to reduce the prevalence of metgaming through making the means harder for everyone to target a few offenders. But if the offenders were brought to light, had the staff handle it, and  punish accordingly, then the same effect is reached without encroaching on those who do not use with ill will. As Trylo said, it may be a simple misunderstanding rather than blatant metagaming, so take a second and ask to find out and give the benefit of the doubt to your fellow player.

There seems to be two arguments that are considering two different issues. One says they want a change because it directly and negatively impacts RP. Therefore it is a direct RP impact.   The other one says they don't like a change for a various reasons (no more rules, OOC info already exists). In this second case, there is no direct RP impact in a positive sense.  It still comes down to this, will it affect your fun (RP)?  If changing CR/Log in/Effects doesn't, great! This change will have little impact on your fun and that is the high aim of this server.  If changing these things does have a large impact, perhaps it's worth trying.

It's my opinion (what do people say about those?) that those who oppose the CR/Effect/Login-change has little to do w/ an overall effect on RP but more for convenience (ie finding a group to run a dungeon with).  Those who prefer a change claim it does in fact have an effect. Thus we could greatly improve someone's RP while this change would have little impact on the RP of others.

It's not all about the RP.  It's about overall 'quality of life' of the server.  If the server makes it more difficult to find a group, a needed class, or otherwise do things, all for a very minor decrease in something that isn't all that common, is it really a good thing for the server?

I did not say "pointless laws." Just because people break a law doesn't mean the law serves no purpose. There are laws in place against assault - is that pointless? No. Do people just play nice because the law says they should? Sure, some people do. Some people choose not to engage in such behavior because they think it is right not to do so, but some are only restrained by the law and the fear of negative consequence. Further, some simply aren't restrained by it, law or no law. Does that mean the law is pointless? No - because to a degree, it does limit the behavior.

I feel this situation is greatly similar (not that I feel I'm being assaulted when you metagame - simply that the concepts are analogous). You're free to disagree, and that's fine, but you missed my point. I don't think this would be a pointless change - I think this would greatly improve our RP experience. It would definitely improve mine. Call that selfish if you wish, but I'm aware I can't speak for everyone - I only know what would definitely be good for me. And judging by some of the responses, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Would you really be that badly effected if you had to put together a dungeon group by asking in character if someone had a particular useful skill for the place you intend to visit? Really?

Is it so hard to dungeon with people your character relates well to?

And I would argue that metagaming is a lot more common than you think. Further, this is a roleplay server. I would argue that the roleplay experience is directly related to the "quality of life" of the server. In fact, I'd argue that it's the greatest indicator. Otherwise, why call it a roleplay server if throwing together a group for a dungeon oocly is more important than doing so through RP?

I find that CR and showing levels -does- impact on my RP. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been denied something because someone OOC knows something about my character. Even more to the point, on this server there was information leaked about my character that was personal to the character, things that should only have affected IC but ended up causing a massive OOC issue. That is what OOC knowledge can do.

When you put a cake out in open view and say it's illegal to eat it, but people know they can do so and get away with it because there's no real -evidence- for what you've done then what's to stop you? We like to believe that everyone is capable of being trusted and capable of being adults but then we're surprised when people don't act in accordance to what we think it's reasonable, because some people literally could care less about what other people say. That is why we take away things that cause temptation. I don't believe that taking something away would not be a detriment to anyones roleplay, but keeping it there very well could be; if you want to ask someone their level, race or class then you are more than welcome to but it should be their right to be able to decide whether or not they want to give you that OOC information. There is positive and negative metagaming, and although I have nothing against positive metagaming (arranging for RP and so on and so forth) - though I would try to do it less myself - I do have a problem against the negative metagaming.

I would feel far better if the knowledge about my character was kept to what can be learnt through IC means rather than OOC means and although there are people that share knowledge OOC to other people that is more easily proven than someone taken advantage of something that is there in plain sight for them to see. We can still punish those that metagame, but doing something that could be done (and I could get you all the relevent information on how to do it in a few days, tops) and help improve the server without any realistic detriment is definitely something worth doing, in my personal opinion.

If I want to go dungeoning, I never EVER look at their CR, I go with people that I like. In fact, I have done to dungeons with people that are epic level because our characters wanted to go together and it's often ended up being a great IC bonding experience because dungeon runs are treated as IC things by me, not OOC - and although I do sometimes lack in my RP during dungeons, I do still treat it as something that happens with my character. Shit, I even spend spellslots on RP spells like "Fly" just because I want to float around and be even more magical than I already am.

trylobyte, would removing the CR/effects/class list on log in change your RP experience?  I ask the same of ThayanKnight.

edit: and if it did, how so?

I say we stop beating the dead horse with this topic. By the way, it's not a horse, that is a dog. Stop hitting it.

*bangs both horse and dead*

Seeing as the topic continues to resurrect, I'd hardly call it completely dead.

At this point, I'm in agreement here. The admins have heard all of the sides of the argument and it's incredibly unlikely you will persuade anyone else to your side. Both sides have selfish arguments ("I am directly affected by this even though 95% of others haven't been") and more general arguments.

The admins will let us know when they come to a decision if they're going to change it or not. That, or just make a poll with no posting permissions and we can anonymously vote on the topic if that'll sway their decision at all.

It's easy to throw around percentages here even though I understand it's for rhetoric.  What you call "selfish" is in itself a generalization that what people want/expect from the CR (and other) changes is for selfish reasons.  I would wager that people arguing for or against is not so much selfish as it is for the betterment of the server.  I think we all know that it's up to the Admins but they themselves have said that they are not set in stone any any number of topics.  Thus a change as this is certainly open for dialogue and logical discussion.

So, having said that, if any oppose any changes to the CR/effects/whatnot, will it affect your RP?  This, in my opinion, is the crux.

I'm quoting these because I think people are ignoring them entirely, and together they make the basis for my argument against this.  There are a few people in this thread who are exaggerating to an extreme about how serious they perceive this problem is and how much the proposed solution will help.  Well, let me talk to you from experience.  I'm on a server where CR is hidden and so is the stuff on the login screen.  Metagaming is rampant.  The only practical effects those changes had are that friends who all know each other get in groups much faster than random guys because asking around for classes while staying IC is a pain in the arse, and those friends always know they're in the appropriate level range for wherever they're going.

The most destructive, most damaging, and most frustrating forms of metagaming all come from OOC interaction between other players.  Hiding a few numbers isn't going to do much beyond inconvenience people.  What are you so afraid of?  Challenge ratings?  What do those apply to, PvP?  I haven't seen meaningful PvP on CD since 2011.  Scared people will know your class?  Why?  Because a few people might treat you a bit differently?  So what?  There's a million things that might affect another character's perception of yours.  It might not be their class, god, or level, but their attitude, behavior, or appearance that causes someone else to not like them.

It's a bit like the vampires at the end of Carpe Jugulum.  If you're afraid of metagaming and you know all the forms it can take, everything looks like metagaming.

(Edit:  This took a while to type, in between interruptions.)

Will it affect my current RP?  No.  Will it affect future RP?  Yes.  Or more accurately, it will affect opportunities for future RP.  I'm gonna admit that yes, I metagame.  How?  I tend to flip through the character list and look for low-level mages, especially sorcerers, and make a note of their name.  That way when I'm on Aelie and I see them, I can strike up roleplay with them knowing there's already a common avenue of conversation.  Otherwise I might just ignore them and continue talking with someone else, or just observing.  But since I Know their level and class, I'm more willing to approach them knowing that there are mutual topics that can be discussed.  If there's an influx of new players lately, I will also sometimes look for people on very low-level characters (3-4) and send them a tell to greet them, say Hello, and offer assistance.

Oh, come on. =p That's like saying no roleplay happens without metagaming. That's certainly not the case. Through roleplaying you can easily learn who is a mage and through roleplay you can figure out their relative power. It doesn't need to be the other way around.

Sure, I can, but it makes it easier if I already have some idea who to talk to.  It's not a binary issue, like people seem to be trying to make it.  It is, like I said, a convenience.

I put it to you that it is better, for the sake of RP integrity, that your character and their character discovers each other's capabilities through RP unless you wish to allow each other the OOC knowledge of classes.

You can greet an unfamiliar player logging onto the server without metagaming. You can offer them assistance without metagaming. You know what was hardest for me starting here? Not finding dungeons. Not learning what was where - exploring the server helped me to get that. But what I needed help with were things like what certain widgets you were given were for, how to use certain commands that are apparently unique to this server (or at least not part of the game as it's packaged). THESE are things I couldn't find out through roleplay. Everything else, I could.

Also, checking for their level so you can take them under your wing? To me, that breaks the suspension of disbelief. Let's say you work a job that requires a very specific skill. You're very good at your job; you could even be considered an expert. Someone new is hired at your company. You've never met them before - they just moved to your town, you know nothing about them other than their name, because they told you that. Is your first assumption, "Well, they're new here, so they must be significantly less skilled than I am - I should teach them everything I know"? I should hope you wouldn't make that assumption, as that would put a big strain on your workplace relationships - particularly if said person was, say, an expert in your field who happened to have been given a better offer from your company than his or her last one. I feel that the "Oh, I've never seen this person in Arabel before, so they clearly must be some weakling newb" attitude (both in character and out) to be more than a little like this. It may not seem that big of a deal to some, but to me, it's a lot like using the CR to decide how your character would react to another player. Their description says they're well-muscled, intimidatingly tall, and very broody - the kind of person you'd hesitate to screw around with. Their CR says "effortless." So which do more players react to? From what I've seen, the CR. That's only one example, before anyone starts in on, "Well, my character would NEVER be intimidated by some muscled brute." That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the point.

This is the gist of what I am saying.  Since you do not find the display of such things very important (see above; i.e. mere inconvenience and PvP hasn't been meaningful) than wouldn't those players who find such changes integral be considered more so?  So if hiding things doe not bother you, why make it any big deal overall? Secondly, perhaps PvP might be more meaningful here since it hasn't been so during the course of revealing CR and such.

The question remains the same: will this change affect your RP.  According to you, trylobyte, unless I am mistaken, the answer is no. Am I wrong?

However it isn't always possible to find the information out IC. In the case of evil people in a LG society, oocinformation is necessary for organizing without announcing affiliations.

But we're not saying nobody should give any OOC information ever - in fact we're trying to get negative OOC information sources removed - not trying to make a rule against willfully sharing OOC knowledge with others.

And some of us are very, very lazy, and unmotivated, or don't particularly enjoy the "awkward introduction" RP. You meet so many new characters and some of us have made many many more, the introduction stuff can get boring. Sometimes it's easier to just jump to, "Hey, do you like XYZ, 'cause I do," and you know you'll get something out of it instead of just, "No, not really."

Should we just not play at all because we're lazy? Because we're polluting other people's sense of RP integrity? If that were the case, I could list a couple prominent players who regularly disrupt my immersion and pollute my sense of RP integrity, and I have pretty low standards as is, due to my general apathy and laziness when it comes to things (I'm generally too lazy/exhausted to play my more intensive characters, like Merriwether.)

With the question at hand, yes, it has the potential to affect my RP if it's removed. Yes, this may be because I'm lazy and jaded. But if I see someone is a Ranger/Cleric/Barbarian/Whatever, that I haven't met before, that may determine who I log on to interact with them and may result in a more interesting, fulfilling interaction. Sure, I could just meet them twice, but I might as well min/max my character's social lives, too >.>

People have different standards. People have different preferences. Different environments require different managements. I've enjoyed my interactions, both IC and OOCly with some of the main advocates of removing CR/Classes/ListPCs levels. But what some of this is coming off as, at least to me (and this might just be hostile attribution bias kicking in) is some Holier than Thou, "My standards are higher and better and therefore should be adhered to and enforced on everyone so the quality of RP is improved." This is likely just me not understanding because I've never really been negatively affected by it, but I find it hard to understand how people can't just... not care. If people are going to judge you/your characters for something they see on the log-in screen, that is their mistake. They don't get the joy of getting to know your character. If this was more of an issue, I'm sure there'd be a consensus as to eliminating all of these. But the number of severe instances of metagaming have not come from this information, and in the 8 years the server's been going, that number is likely still less than 5. If 1 or 2 people are ignoring you because your character is secretly a vampire, there's 18 other people on to interact with, or you'll get much more enriching interactions from the people you already associate with.

/rant

I will now refrain from posting in this thread further.

It's the support of voluntary OOC information overall, methinks.

You're making the assumption that I check levels and classes to 'take people under my wing.'  Nowhere did I say that - As a matter of fact, this is the sort of 'metagame paranoia' I was talking about.  I said I do it to spur conversation, so I know I can talk to this person and know what I can approach them about.    Not so I can take an apprentice.  If I were doing it to get apprentices I might have had more than one in three years, y'know?  And if someone new is hired in my company, I'll generally only go up and talk to them if they're in my department.  Otherwise, what are we gonna talk about?  And even if he is a recognized expert in his field I may offer to teach him some of the idiosyncrasies of my particular company if he seems like he needs the advice.  No two workplaces are the same, after all.

The 'I've never seen them here before so they must be new' attitude is justified when you're dealing with people that spend hours a day in the Square, because nine times out of ten they're going to be right.  That's not metagaming at all, that's in-character behavior - Sure, they could be some heroic legend arriving from overseas, but odds are they're some random mook that's come for treasure and fame just like everyone else.  A lot like your new cashier isn't likely to be a celebrity or an internationally-recognized mycologist, they're probably just some high school student looking for a paycheck.

The 'tall, dark, and broody' person is another example if maybe-IC maybe-OOC.  Fact is, I could spin your argument and say that you're trying to intimidate people without bothering to take the Intimidate skill.  There's more to being a scary bastard than being tall and having lots of spikes on your armor.  Want to scare people?  Roll Intimidate!  That's what it's there for.  Most people would ignore the results anyway (I have experience with this) but that's poor roleplaying, not metagaming.

dAngel, if you desire to contribute, rant away.  I think we're having a great conversation here.

I'm not posting here in any personal way at all.  I have full respect for everyone posting here and in fact I have had fantastic RP with most everyone here (if not it's because my brain sucks at working). If I didn't like this server and the people who play here I would not be here.

Here's a question, would everyone here support a try at this for a time?  Another way to put that is, does anyone object to trying this out here on CD?

Having seen this before and found it mildly annoying without providing much of a gain in anything, I'd be opposed to it personally but if people want to try it I'm not going to make a scene.  I'm just going to tell them why they shouldn't. 

I wouldn't be opposed to trying it out. I just think that we might need to find some sort of middle-ground understanding from what seems to be the MedCore and the HardCore RP groups. If little things like this ruin immersion, I don't know how you can possible play tabletop D&D.

Like Trylo, I am opposed to it. Your theory about "trying it" assumes that we haven't and from what I've  read, most of us have and still have our respective opinions, so what is the desired result from the experiment?

So it's been tried on CD?

As an aside, if we're talking about other servers, I've been on others where hiding said information was not the initial case and when implemented, went swimmingly.

No, it seems most of us have played on servers where this is used.

No, nowhere did you say that. But I also didn't say "make them your apprentice." But I have seen Aelie frequently take that attitude, apprentice or otherwise, if someone mentions they happen to use magic; even before she finds out that they are, in fact, very low-level practitioners. And I would argue quite vehemently that no - sitting around in a square for hours in a day does not in any way justify assuming someone new to the city is new to "adventuring" or anything else. That assumption is a bit metagamey, as far as I'm concerned. As for my example - yes, investment in the intimidate skill is important. But as for rolling that? I've seen higher level players fail to beat an intimidate roll and reply with narrative along the lines of, "would be intimidated, but has killed dragons, so is not."  So...no, I'm not "trying to intimidate people without taking the intimidate skill." But part of intimidation often is appearance, and ignoring that because you see their CR is metagaming, unconsciously or not.

So, I am all in support for the OOC Information removal bit, but I am starting to feel increasingly nervous about a few things in this thread...

1.  Some of the posts I have seen, quite truthfully, are coming across as increasingly condescending.  And some people are carrying this "I am a better NWN RPer than you" with some of the snide remarks that have been made regarding their pet peeves or dislikes about what said people see on this server.  I am starting to really dislike this.  Maybe I have just outgrown some of my 'standards.' 

2. There has been a lot of vicious posts about past experiences in this thread, that have just make me afraid to log in right now.  I have other things in the way of that for the time, but I would really like to log into the server and feel like we can get along (as much as possible). No one is perfect, and we have all made mistakes (myself included). And now it is feeling like some people's grudges are coming out in here.

3.  All this nervousness about potential metagaming, to the point where some are being very aggressive about this new system being implemented (or not implemented).   Just because I am in support for the measures being suggested does not mean I am going to be talking down on others who disagree with me.  Or would do the same on the reverse scenario.  

I will own to the fact I might be a little stressed out from some things happening IRL on vacation, but this thread's direction seems to be losing its productive streak.  And people are starting to get very, unnecessarily snarky or nose-up.

~Arya

A few points.

1)  That's just Aelie's general attitude.  There are IC reasons for it, and if you talk to her she might even explain it.  It's not something I do, it's something that Aelie does.

2)  Sitting in the Square all the time being a good measure of telling if someone's new?  Well, that's a bit like the five-year greeter in a Wal-Mart assuming a cashier they've never seen before is new - They work in the same general area all the time, so if he doesn't know who they are assuming they're new is a safe bet.  He might be wrong, but usually he's going to be right.  And yes, I have been wrong - Sometimes it's a quest character or a returning player from ages past, in which case it leads into conversation and roleplay.

3)  Looking intimidating is enough to threaten Joe Average, but these are adventurers.  Adventurers are generally pretty hardened to such things and will need that little extra talent to actually rattle them.  As for people not responding to intimidation attempts/rolls, that is, like I said, not metagaming but just bad roleplay.  CR often doesn't factor into it - I've regularly been harassed by players who were half my level or less, and it wasn't because they knew my CR - It was because they knew the server's PvP rules wouldn't allow me to kill them.  It was still metagaming but it wasn't the kind that this change would help with.

1. I'm not even going to address this.

2. Uh, this isn't Wal-mart. It's a city of over 30,000 people. I understand the scope of the server really can't accurately portray that, but if you can assume that there are crowds in the streets on most days, I don't think it's a stretch to not assume that if you don't know someone, they're a newcomer or amateur.

3. You've basically just stated that intimidate rolls are worthless, after telling me to use them, because a lot of players are, in your opinion, "bad roleplayers." And yes, you didn't say "a lot," but I've seen this behavior in quite a few people, so...a lot.

Personally, that really just sounds like excuses for metagaming, to me. Maybe to someone else, it doesn't; that's fine. But rather than argue all day and night about it, I'll simply stand by my point - visible CR leads to metagaming. I will not illustrate my point further with an example of this, because honestly, I'm not interested in causing drama with anyone by calling them out, but it has happened more than once to more than one of my characters, and to others that I've seen. Take that how you will.

No one is arguing what is vs. what isn't metagaming. This was supposed to be about the pros vs. cons of removing CR, etc. CR is still important for PvE because, while all us old players know roughly the level-ranges of all the dungeons, new players don't. It can sometimes be frustrating to just go around exploring and die over and over simply because you didn't know that orc was actually a lot stronger than you thought it was. In PnP, a DM can give you a description of just how tough something looks, compared to you. DMs aren't constantly around to do that here, so if you're new and wandering alone, you can back off or say, "...I wonder if..." and then die horribly of your own accord, not because of lack of knowledge. If that's immersion-breaking for PvE...well, why are you examining the creature in the first place if you're not going to learn anything from it if it's not there?

No one is going to disagree that metagaming CR in player interactions happens. It does. The big debate going on right now is how common is it actually? As I and others have stated before, it seems like it's being blown out of proportion. What we're seeing here is a couple of isolated cases that should be easily dealt with (Talk with the player, figure out what's going on, if they're being a dick then who gives a shit anymore and move on with your fun and your life; or if it's more severe get the staff involved).

We were beating a dead horse the first time it was brought up. No new opinions are being shared here. You're not going to change anyone's mind. You can't force your standards upon someone else. If you could, the United States's political system wouldn't be so incredibly flawed. If the overall community feels that it should be more laid-back in regards to harmless metagaming, with the rare harmful metagaming as a side effect, then so be it. There's no reason to keep fighting it. The same thing goes the other way, if we decide to eliminate the possibility of ALL metagaming, then so be it. At that point you can decide enjoy yourself and get on, or move on to somewhere else if it bothers you that much.

I've played on and off here in part because of RL stuff coming up and in part because of decisions on the server, attitudes, playerbase, etc., and I've said the same thing about the XP system when people have complained (this is one example of something being slowly, drastically changed over the years to be more lenient). If you don't like it, if it bothers you THAT much and you can't get past it and just enjoy yourself, then why are you playing here? Calm down, relax, have fun, and stop caring. That's the best advice I can give. When you stop caring about what other people are doing and just focus on your own fun, it's so much easier to enjoy yourself. 

On point two...

There have been a few cases I had a character ask if someone was a locale or from elsewhere, but this was done to all level ranges.  I try to avoid the "new" question unless it becomes super obvious, but this slipping on occasion should not be harmful if the interactions lead to more roleplay.  Then again, my thoughts,  

Point three..

I would argue that everyone reacts to intimidation differently, but it is not a useless skill.  One might outright cower, others might glare and plot to murder the person later, but walk away.  And so forth.  But I also can understand why others would feel annoyed if someone completely ignores Intimidate.  As it is, people with the skill have to take into account character levels in the game mechanics anyway (if D&D PnP rules apply, if I am not mistaken).  So, in truth, there is a fair counter balance that takes character level into account.  

This has been a point I have disagreed with the administration on regarding social RP skills in CvC situations.  I find it unfortunate that they are ruled as meaningless in such scenarios.  While I do not want this to turn into 'rollplay' server myself, I would like to be able to use social RP skill rolls in some interactions - especially if they actually help counter the potential metagaming people worry about (for both sides).  DMs also cannot always spread love around immediately, so more and more, people are needing to engage in social-oriented situations for roleplay.

Granted, I speak as someone who has a rogue who strongly relies on social skills, since she is a social rogue of sort.  She is pretty useless in CvC situations without them.  (One reason I strongly dislike combative CvC/PvP. I dislike powerbuilding and how it can often be very encouraged via some dungeons.) 

~Arya

Okay - before this gets out of hand and people get too heated arguing it...


1) Overall, we're going to continue trying to look at ways to minimize superfluous OOC information.  At the same time, we can't ever make it completely impossible for anyone to metagame before the fact, and we will continue to do our best to mitigate any instances we become aware of when it does intrude in a negative way.

2) That said, we do try and minimize that sort of information where it's feasible - even if an astute player may well be able to know what's up OOCly, anyway.


My current thoughts...

A) I'm inclined to think that the effect list can be removed from the descriptions, as I really don't see it come up terribly often in normal play, but could have outsized repercussions for a low level character of a strange race.

B) As I stated before, I'm less bothered by overall CR than I am with the login list.  CR doesn't really tell you anything other than "This person is probably higher level/lower level/roughly the same".  Whether this is OOC, IC, or a mix, is arguable - in some cases it may be, in some cases maybe not.  I tend to think it's fairly obvious most of the time (80%+) when dealing with those skilled in these sorts of professions.  You wouldn't know exactly, but you could probably tell a veteran from a rookie, etc.

C) As Vincent said, removing the login list levels is going to be tricky.  I think once we move to using nwncx for logins, that it will be able to clear that out, though I don't know for certain.

First of all, I want to thank FireWraith for his post, because it is good to know that, agreeing or disagreeing, the staff does at least acknowledge our opinions and weigh in on them.

Now for the quoted above.

First of all, I don't really check the CR of monsters in PvE. I find out quickly enough if I can kill them or not by trying to. If you lost XP when you died (and I'm told that's the norm on most servers), then I could understand being too frustrated with it to bother. But since I've never lost XP for dying, here, I don't see how this is relevant.

Secondly, as I noted, the CR issue has happened a few times to me, and to other players that I've observed. And yes, it was mildly irritating, and we discussed it amongst ourselves, and decided to let it go - but in a discussion like this, where the topic is raised, I think it appropriate to contribute one's experiences (even if in a vague manner to avoid hurt feelings). I'm not angry; I'm not having a fit. I'm voicing an opinion. If you can do so, I think it perfectly valid for anyone else to, as well.

As for "beating a dead horse" and "why am I playing here" if I "can't get past" the metagaming? Okay. First of all, that came off as a bit offensive. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, and so I'm not going to assume you were being deliberately insulting, but let's try looking at it from another perspective.

When you were new here, did you read every single post on the forum? These forums, from what I've been told, are new. Which means, in a server as old as this one is (I've heard people talking about being here at least 5+ years, but I don't know how old it is, really), there are a LOT of posts. If this one is new, and the general forum already exceeds a thousand, I think this is an unreasonable expectation. Also, being new does mean that these issues that are old for you  are new for some of us. So if we don't like something about the server, which we are enjoying over all, are we supposed to not voice our opinions? Are we not supposed to make suggestions that certain things be changed, and then defend our argument, simply because you've seen the argument before? Things don't change when you passively accept them - and comparing this server to the US government was more than a little silly. So far, my experiences here have shown that the staff does, over all, try to be helpful and considerate, even if we don't always agree on something. It's entirely possible that the issue I have may never change - but have I said once that it means that I can't get past it? If I couldn't, I would not be here.

It should be stated that it is also impossible to get a firm idea of what a character is capable of only by knowing their level and classes. What makes or breaks a characters effectiveness is limited to one thing, the player. All of this information means nothing if you do not know the skill of the person on the other side of the keyboard, both in PvP and RP. Also, you know their class layout, not their AC, skills, feats, BAB, inventory, abilities, yadda yadda.

So.  I'm fine with removing the effects list.  Nobody really uses that.  The only things I've ever used it for was to see what some monsters were immune to after they resisted something someone tried to cast ('Oh, they're immune to mind spells').  No loss there.

While I don't want to see the login menu stuff removed, I'd be fine with giving it a try to see if it affects anything.

I could also support the removal of the effects list. Even with my ever-curious self, I can't think of any purpose this actually serves for PvE that you can't easily figure out otherwise.

ClockworkMayhem, I'm glad you didn't take my post offensively, since that's not what I meant. More practical and realist than anything else, if particularly blunt. I'd rather someone find their variety of fun elsewhere than be frustrated with a system currently in place (people STILL complain leveling is too slow >.>). It's simply a matter of sometimes peoople/servers aren't perfect matches for each other and yeah, sometimes little things that bother you can be hard to ignore (I'm particularly stubborn and won't even really try other servers because I'm so set in my ways here).

I wasn't comparing people persuading the admins similar to the US Government, I was comparing it to people persuading other people. If you go to a coffee shop and have a debate about abortion, gay marriage, economics, etc., it's very, very rare you'll be able to convince the person you're debating with their opinions needs changing. Personally, I find these situations very frustrating and uncomfortable for that very reason. At times I'm not particularly great from separating debate-frustration with actual frustration in the friendship/relationship, so that's why I'm saying this is a dead horse, even if it's not. That's why I keep trying to "check out" (lolselfcontrol). We all have a lot more fun when we're not ranting along like this. We've all voiced our opinions and our experiences, and at this point it's just reiteration after reiteration (myself included, maybe I just suck at debating). Hell, I've even conceded and agree with the removal of 2 things now (Still think CRs and ListPCs levels should stay). Just because you don't use those resources, doesn't mean other people shouldn't have access to them.

(P.S. Let me know when you're actually done with Skin Game. Would love to talk about it more.)

Pretty much summarises my thoughts on the topic right now.  I am glad it is not as heated as it was just twelve hours ago.  And while it could have been IRL stress on my part complicating matters, it just really started to feel like the thread became very, very aggressive.

There are a number of things that I would like to see on the server (and no, less ECL or elves or whatever is not amongst them).  But not all of the things I would like to see, would become implemented easily.  So, I try to look at the positives, if anything.  I have been on a number of servers, including social servers - so I can see just how 'bad' things can get on other servers.  While this place is certainly not perfect, and I will still butt heads with the admins at times (and I have met/known them IRL, so none of it is ill), I still consider this server my home.  And want to do all I can to make others feel welcomed.  If there is anything that I can do, as a player hoping to return to full-fledged staff soon, I am interested in knowing, even if the feedback might hurt a little. I know for myself that it is the attitude of the playerbase that generally makes the server its worthwhile more than the content (even if fluff is rather nice when faced with more PvP/CvC oriented characters/players).  Whenever I left here in the past, it was often due to the common and/or encouraged attitude that the community as a whole took (with exceptions).  Or having a group coming in who goes out of their way to be snooty to others they do not believe fit their fantasy of how things 'should be.'  

At this point, I am just hoping the summer will not bring too much of a nasty fall out.  It is prone to make some seasonal-affected sorts irritable or more anxious, and I notice a lot more fluctuation around that time. <.<  Some of it even starting in the spring, depending on the year.  I already notice some tension in the air.  Even stuff not in the forums.  

Sincerely,
Arya

It's all in your head!

A further reason not to remove CR's is I think actually it can be used to help a person get a feel for the person they are talking to, sure you won't know exactly what they can do, but there is going to be something about a character like say Aelie, who has gone up against the Shadow Dragon of Tilverton, faced some god thing from between the gaps of reality, and more, that you can just tell when you see them that frankly, this person is beyond you. Something about the way they carry them self, the easy confidence they have even when in the midst of the freaks of Arabel. That frankly Jim who got of the boat two months ago, and has faced a few Orcs in their time, simply won't have yet. No offence Jim.

That or said characters just have a rep, that you hear about as your walking down the street. 'That Crazy sorceress Aelie, I heard she blew up a small town yesterday!'

That small thing you can't quite place that lets you know when your facing someone that has frankly seen things you wouldn't believe.

((no offence to Try hope they dinnay mind me stealing Aelie there))

To use your example, Aelie's reputation is well-enough known in character that a CR isn't going to tell anyone anything that square gossip (or Aelie herself) does not.

CR rating doesn't give you a feel for who you're talking to, at all - it just tells you whether or not they have a shot at kicking your ass (and even that isn't entirely accurate). Talking to people? That gives you a feel for who you're talking to. Adventuring with them and seeing the things they can do? That gives you a feel for who you're talking to, and it's all in character. Eliminates the need for something so artificial as a CR rating.

And I would disagree to an extent, you can tell something about someone like that, the way they carry themself. To give an example years ago, I and a friend lived in a area, went to the same places, had a similar routine. We walked the same streets, at the same times. i got mugged twice on those streets, he never was. The difference between me and him? He was on a national team for Martial Arts, and carried himself with a confidence that I couldn't. He Knew walking down those streets that no one would win out if they messed with him, and people could sense that. Couldn't even put it into words but they knew it.

If the CR rating isn't accurate (and it's not; a good level 10 HiPS Rog/SD can kill just about anybody in PvP) then why are we so worried about it?

THIS! +1!

CR and ECL are the biggest travesties of the 3.X system. Gods, I'd remove them from the damn game if I was allowed. Replace them with a system that actually bloody works. This topic is literally just going in circles. The dog is a hole in the ground now.

First, to address Darvins:

CR doesn't indicate how you carry yourself. RP does. Why? Well, someone five levels higher than you is rated impossible, correct? If that is the case, a level 6 is impossible to a level 1. That level 6 is still practically a baby in terms of the power of characters in the server...but somehow, in a few weeks, he just carries himself better than that level 1? Sorry, that doesn't jive.

Now for Trylo:
Because it influences people to metagame, anyway, consciously or unconsciously. I didn't walk into any trap, here - I've been aware the entire time that yes, CR rating doesn't always accurately portray a character's ability or lack of it to kick in your teeth. But it does influence the behavior of a character artificially, and I believe it shouldn't. The strength of your roleplay, the portrayal of your character as that kind of person who carries themselves that kind of way? That should influence it. If you roleplay your character as being incredibly intimidating, THAT should be the deterrent to PvP - not, "Oh, shit, he's impossible! I better not press his buttons."

And yes to use your own example, there is a huge difference between a level 1 and a level 6. Or between a level 3 and a level 8 one that frankly would be noticable. Further want to know what the most common thing I've seen over the years, is new characters who come in and start poking the epics, knowing nothing can be done to them in return. Who will ignore the fact that as a level six they are cheeking and insulting the level 20+ and just don't care, because they feel immune to what that person could do to them in response. I've seen it far more often done that way, where the new character will come in and claim to have seen and done it all already, than anything that might be done in reverse. It has nothing to do with CR, and frankly my view is, if I don't believe something is a problem don't change it.

The powerful character's don't need to check the CR rating to feel confident they can beat most people up, they already know it.

To be frank PvP here is pointless anyway so don't worry about it, PvP achieves nothing for the most part.

Welcome to Pathfinder, where everyone is ECL0.

My hin would love to appear effortless to everyone.

To offer a counterpoint to your example from earlier - my fiance? He's a martial arts expert. He's also a skinny little bastard. People pick fights with him, despite his confidence (and I promise you, he exudes it) because he's short and he's skinny. People don't just "sense" these things most of the time.

The way someone carries themselves is still a matter of RP, not CR. Does a real person see your CR floating above your head? Nope. They see you. The way you carry yourself isn't indicated by CR rating.

As for "The powerful characters don't need to check the CR rating"? No, but they do. Because if you've been keeping up with this thread, you'd understand that was my experience. I've left out names and specifics as not to call anyone out, but when it has happened to me (on two characters, now, and to a few friends' characters right in front of me), it was one of these "powerful" characters. And the other thing I noticed? They don't pick the same fights with people who are on equal footing.

I offer you a challenge, since you think so highly of CR's ability to portray this information: provide me with one example of something CR gives you that cannot be portrayed in RP, through your character's words or actions, or through descriptive emotes.

I don't think anyone is saying that the CR system trumps RP.

Actually, it seems like that's exactly what Darvins is saying. And if it's not, then perhaps he's suggesting it's just easier to check CR than to RP this stuff. In which case...why play on a roleplay server? If the CR is what's important to portray this sort of thing, why not an action server? I'm sure there are servers exclusively for PvP where you wouldn't have to RP at all.

Your making an assumption there, an unfair one. There is a simple easy none Metagaming way to tell such things. Your character is someone they don't know, the powerful character near them is one they have spent years around. (Real Time Years) they know the other guy is powerful from Real time years worth of roleplay, they don't know your guy, they are unproven to them. Guess what, it's not Metagaming to respect the guy you have known for years over the new person, it may speak of a dickish Character but it doesn't need to come from Metagaming. To put it bluntly, I dare say every one of my Epic Characters except maybe my first, has been on an adventure or two at some point with every character over level 17 and many under level 17 at this point. They know what they are capable of and what they are not. If they haven't been on a trip with someone, they are going to suspect them of being new, and I do not need the CR system to tell me that.

I'd suggest maybe asking why the character is so aggresive to yours, but you hate getting told such things oocly, which leads to situations like this to be frank I find. Where an IC encounter leads to OOC bad feelings.

And I am saying it can be a useful rough guide, alongside the role play, one that can happily avoid someone having to endlessly repeat their achievements every time new players or characters arrive. because after a while that becomes damned dull. Or having to state 'Stands with an easy air of confidence gained through' *yawn* everytime you log on an epic. I am saying it can be a handy rough guide without granting specific information, that a level list may do. (The aforementioned 'Blackguard' reveal)

I don't think I'm being unfair at all - I'm going by what you said. And yeah, I do still think that assuming that everyone you meet is new still shows a lack of that suspension of disbelief important to RP. And why do you need an ooc "useful rough guide" when your RP should be enough? Why is an endless repetition of the things you've done even necessary? Do you do that to people you meet in real life? Things come up in conversation or they don't. Forcing it is silly.

And yeah, I do hate being told these things oocly. Why? Because my character should learn them in character. But I'm sure you could find some excuse as to why a high level only picks on low-levels that's perfectly in character, so perhaps I should just save my breath. I never said I had any bad feelings; I just noticed the poor behavior and let it go. It's simply relevant to the discussion, so I brought it up.

Frankly, the only concerns I'm seeing regarding CR all factor into PvP.  This server isn't what I'd call PvP-happy - I've seen meaningful PvP exactly once in all my years here, and it was a DM event trying to capture a PC who had tried to assassinate a nobleman.  And guess what?  The person who captured them was at least six levels below them despite it being DM-supervised mechanical PvP, so CR didn't factor into it there.  In most places that people gather PvP isn't even possible anyway, and almost all of it that I see is consensual for-fun PvP in the Arena, or IC conflict resolution.  So just don't worry about PvP at all - It's less common than half-vampire half-dragons characters.

Two minor thoughts:

1, CR is no more artificial than the other rules of the *game* being played.  You can RP an 20 strength half-orc as being massively muscled and immensely skilled at melee combat, but if he's a level 4 fighter with mundane gear then he's going to whiff at things a level 10 human fighter with +3 gear that started with 14 strength will easily hit.  That's likely an extra 9-10 AB from levels/feats/weapon enhancement alone, not even looking at more Strength on gear.  It doesn't matter how convincing your RP is or how fervently you want your level 4 fighter to be a master of melee combat, he's still pitiful next to the level 10 fighter.

I'm curious -- would you say the half orc RPing as being immensely skilled at melee combat is good RP because it matches the player's vision of the character or bad RP because it cannot be backed up in game terms?

2, if anything I worry more about losing the effect list since different servers often had weird properties on enemies that you wouldn't expect -- which is purely a mechanical issue.  Why are these bandits immune to Death Magic?  Dunno.  Why is that Demi-lich vulnerable to Divine damage?  Dunno.  Why is that Red Dragon 50% immune to Electrical damage?  Dunno.  I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here but it's one of my biggest fears on a server that tries to hide effects -- because weird stuff happens and trying to read the scrolling combat log with a party of players attacking a group of enemies is impossible.

I remember an amusing situation on another server where a builder made a prismatic dragon with high reflex saves, Improved Evasion, immunity to level 4 spells and under...and massive vulnerability to cold.  Except the only level 5+ spell that deals Cold damage is Cone of Cold which was simply evaded and Ice Storm is level 4.  I pointed this out to the builder who said "Oops" and fixed it.  But if I had not been able to see the cold vulnerability there would have been no way to know there was a problem because the builder wanted cold damage to be used but set it up so that was impossible for a caster.

On top of that, this server has minimized spell visuals -- which means if you hide both the Shadow Shield visual AND the examine effect then that seems a bit weird because there's no way to tell off-hand.

Alright. First, I'm going to address your curiosity - I'm not judging someone's roleplay. I never mentioned "good" roleplay from "bad" roleplay - only metagaming. Trylobyte brought up "bad" roleplaying. If they're playing to their vision of the character, I see no problem with this. Even at level 4, they're going to have some skill that the average person is unlikely to have - that's why they adventure instead of baking bread or farming. Sure, they're not as skilled as the level 10, but they're skilled, and they're strong, and I'm not going to jump on their case for being a bad roleplayer because someone else can kick their ass. You're confusing the issue.

As for CR being "no more artificial than the rules of the *game* being played"? I disagree. The point of roleplay is to eliminate as many of those artificial constructs as possible, so that they are not barriers to the suspension of disbelief. Due to my experiences here, I've found CR to be one of these barriers. Is it an insurmountable one? Of course not. But does that mean I wouldn't be happier if it weren't there? Nope.

Now, onto the effects list. Just as it's unrealistic in real life to know every trick an opponent has up his or her sleeve by looking at them, I find that looking at the list of effects is just as unrealistic. Certainly, in your example of the prismatic dragon, knowing that was helpful - it was a mistake on the DMs part and was corrected. Yes, the combat log goes by quickly and it's hard to tell from that. But honestly, I still don't even bother with this - I can still see what's doing damage and what isn't when the numbers appear over their heads (still artificial, but even I understand that yes, it's a game, and at least some indicator is necessary) and when they drop from uninjured to barely injured, then to injured, etc. Hiding the spell visuals is, to my knowledge, mostly by choice; the only things I've really noticed a difference in when I don't type /novfx is that stoneskin and barkskin don't show up, when I've been told they do on other servers. Not sure what they'd look like, otherwise, as this is my first server, so I doubt I'm missing much. I figure much like the Icy Scales spell, which covers you in ice, it would probably make you look covered in stone or bark. Big deal.

If my character is inclined to pick a fight with someone, they do so because they're in the mood to pick a fight, or someone's provoked them somehow. Not because my character is more powerful, and I've checked to see how prepared they are. My characters that are inclined to doing so will do their best to prepare for anything; if they miss something, they suffer. That happens.

Now, if this doesn't suit your style of play, that's fine by me - to be blunt, it was never a player I aimed to convince, but the staff, as the decision ultimately rests with them. Engaging in debate with other players on this is certainly fine, but it does kind of leave one with the idea that because they're new, and their experiences have not been the same as those who have been here a long time, their experiences mean less and are easily swept aside. Thankfully, I haven't gotten that feeling from the staff - just this debate with other players. So with that, I'll simply withdraw, because at this point, I'm only repeating myself, as is nearly every other person to continue this. By now, I've either made my point, or I haven't.

Pathfinder uses ECL, too.  It's pretty similar in that respect.

CR is an entirely NWN construct though, and mostly just boils down to "way above my level"/"roughly close to my level"/"way below my level".

It's an element of the game engine.  And as for qualms about CR and PVP, here's the thing - and just so everyone is clear:

We're not balancing for PVP.

We're balancing the game based generally on PvE, because PVP is not a primary focus for CD, and because trying to do both is something so difficult that even a full time paid staff would have trouble with it (which we are not).  This doesn't mean we never allow PVP, though we are a bit careful with it, partly because in our view it makes for a fairly poor means of conflict resolution in NWN.  We also tend to not like the way that we've sometimes seen it used as a means of enforcing roleplay in the past - i.e., "I don't like your roleplay, I'm going to PVP you until you stop", which leads to all sorts of problems.  We do like conflict, but we prefer that it be OOCly cooperative on some level - that is, agreed to by both parties.

Now, as to the way level and deadliness play into proper RP, there are several ways to look at it, and several situations that can occur, and ways that both having a general knowledge of someone's level is good, and ways it's bad.

For instance:

Two characters run into each other, get into an argument, and fight.  Turns out one of them was level 30, the other was level 5, so it's over very quickly.

Viewpoint A: This is proper roleplay, and it would have been bad had the level 5 acted with OOC knowledge of the level of the other.
Viewpoint B: The level 5 should have known that the other was more powerful, based on clues and hints that would be visibly apparent.

The converse situation is two characters running into one another, and the lower level taunting the higher level, knowing that they're oocly disinclined (or otherwise unable, laws/etc) to fight, despite the massive level imbalance.



Now, we can argue the difference of characters who are well-known versus those who aren't, characters that are obviously dangerous (the Hulk) versus those who may not be quite so obvious (say, Black Widow).  But given the limitations of NWN, we really can't account for both.  So what does that mean?

Well, it means we're going to have to decide based on another measure.  And in my case, my inclination is towards giving people a reason to avoid unnecessarily getting into fights that they'd rather avoid.

*sigh* point is, that, okay here is what I mean by the ability to quite happily judge based only on knowing one of the characters involved. My own Valar can't stand Aesa, she's had more than one run in with the Character, will likely again. For all that, if she saw Aesa in a argument with a person she has never seen before? She'd lay good money on the result being Aesa slaughters the person involved without breaking a sweat. She can't stand Aesa, she'd not shed any tears of the woman died, and for all that? She'd bet on Aesa because she's seen Aesa in a fight.

On the otherhand, what if it was Aesa in a disagreement with say I don't know... Elf, and the two where looking set to come to blows.. she'd not know what the result would be. This has nothing to do with CR's or even her preference, she doesn't get on with Elf either, but her knowledge of the characters involved. If my char has not seen your character fight, why the heck should they assume anything other than they are newly minted adventurers, and have not seen some of the stuff the more experianced have. Why should she assume that they have faced some of the crazy stuff she has in her time, gone through the stuff she has. Why should anyone else?

Lastly You don't need CR's to judge these things, CR's are the least useful example, and frankly it doesn't cut down on Metagaming to remove them, because if people really wanna Metagame, they can go by the fact they've been playing that character as their main for X amount of years and the other character hasn't. CR doesn't change that, what it might change is maybe give the new person a chance to go 'Woooah wait a minute maybe my character shouldn't be being a dick to this person, they are big and scary and show the signs of having seen some scary fights. 

So would a number of others!

*Bluff check alert.*

~Arya

In all seriousness, if this sort of scripting, or any of the scripting is not too much of a hassle for the scripters, I think this deserves a trial run still.  It is nothing that considerably hampers people's freedoms on the server, as far as I can tell.  Give it a shot, and if there really is a major drawback to it, things can be fixed.  The worse that happens as far as I can see is PvP happy people might get a horrible karmic backlash, or some gold gets lost from time to time.  

At least it has been tried and erred over no attempt to give it a shot at all.  Especially since trying it does not do considerable damage to players. :-)  

My new thoughts!

~Arya

I would like to point out something.  We now have the ability to edit character descriptions at will, whenever we want.  What does this mean? The people who desire characters to be open books are free to put "Rogue 6/Ranger 3/Shadowdancer 3, Level 12 Elf" at the bottom of their description if they desire everyone to know this.  Those that would rather not volunteer such information need not be forced to, if we eliminate the log in information and CR examine.

Bam.  Easy compromise.

Without even touching the subject of metagaming, this is a purely mechanical argument.

Please, please do not remove the effect list on characters. It makes playing a buffing mage significantly more difficult in an artificial way. Without the effects displayed you have no way of knowing when effects expire and need to be re-buffed. This isn't OOC knowledge either (Other than the few spells that have visible effects). A mage character has an intimate understanding and ability to know when their spells are still in effect. They feel and know when spells are dispelled or expire.

Or they could just ask, "Hey, are everyone's wards still okay? Does anything need refreshing?"


Yaldabaoth
This is actually a really good idea.

It seems the majority are in favour of this. Shall I acquire the means to do it?

Just because some of us aren't commenting doesn't mean we are in favor of it.  (This forum is not a "voting" forum.  It's to suggest ideas and discuss them.  The final decision is the admins.)

I am in favor of removing login classes/levels.

I am ambivalent about removing spells/effects from the description.

I am not in favor of removing the challenge rating.  Listing it in the character description does NOT provide a way to check monster CR, unless you want to volunteer to go through every area, every spawn, and add it in their descriptions.

Also note that if you're going to remove the challenge rating, you need to disable the /listpcs function (which lists character level as well).

Oh, I know it's not a voting forum and it's down to the admins and everything! I figured I'd just try and help them out a little bit by getting the stuff in case they did want to do it! Basically providing the means for them

Honestly, as a mage, I haven't found that having the effects list has really helped me, ever.  I also think that we should probably look at re-implementing various visual effects for certain key wards, or even using less graphically intensive replacements - for instance, we replaced the old premonition VFX with the default "see invis/etc" vfx.  Truesight instead gives you glowing blue eyes, etc.

So that said, here's a question for everyone - what effects do you consider to be critical enough to deserve a VFX that's easily seen?  Furthermore, are there any that currently have one, that you think should change?

As far as a way to suppress the level display from the character login screen, I'd certainly be interested if you know of how it's done.  I know it can be done, I just don't know what it requires or how difficult it is to do.

I will get you the information required FW! ^^

I think the most important ones that need a Vis are ones that can be worn away, especially Death Ward, since it was changed to now be one that can fade when the prot from neg energy is chipped away at, it would be handy to have a visual affect in place to let you know when that is, because Death Ward is a spell that when you need it... you reallly need it. Ones with a preset duration are less important, so spells like Barkskin and the animals can stay as they are, it's the ones that can be chipped away at.

Frankly I thought it nice that most of them can't be seen anymore. Less christmas tree glowing on my screen which causes lag city.

The only ones I can think of are things that create auras- Battletide and the like.

We definitely don't want to go back to full christmas-tree effects, hence the focus on what people think is really needed/critical to know about (such as Death Ward).

I am glad to come back to this thread about a discussion on something that seems like it might lead to a good compromise and address as many people's concerns as possible.  Thank you Bushy_Fro! Thank you Fire Wraith! This made my day after the time spent in the waiting room.

Sincerely,
Arya

As much as I really hate texture replacement buffs, like old stoneskin and barkskin, some sort of visual marker for stoneskin would be very helpful.  Also, while the Protection From Elements series, Protection From Magical Energy, Protection From Arrows etc never had a visual effect, I would like to have some way of telling that they are or are not still up.

I would really like to see Magic Circle against Alignment go away, incidentally, with it's obnoxious landing lights.

Would it be possible to have some sort of notice (private/tell perhaps) show up when a buff wears off/is dispelled?

That'd be better for specific ones like death ward and.. pretty much just that, otherwise it'd get kind of annoying, wouldn't it?

Just to note, Effects have been removed from Examine.  CR is still listed, at present.

I saw, that's already a lot better! Thanks FW!

I didn't actually notice a difference until I tried to check what energy immunity I casted on a partymate earlier in the dungeon, only to find out it wasn't listed.  Had to cast it again.

Well, that's not so bad!

I noticed it had been removed too and i thought i had broken something... shows me for not keeping up on the debate. I don't think it really matters to be honest to me none of this stuff affects the way i rp. I find the information usefull ooc. And sometimes that can not be metagaming. In regards to Aryas point about her social rogue even in Pen and Paper the social skills where used against NPC's when used against someone played by a person you can choosse how a person reacts. Don't get me wrong i don't mind if it's used in a way to show how good somone is at something but if you decided that it hadn't worked as you don't think your player would fall for it i would still be fine with it.