Cormyr and the Dalelands

So yea figured I'd make this thread to continue the discussion...

a 54 AC will get you slaughtered at Frost giants their highest AB is a 42 which means they will hit you on a 12 or better then a 17 or better , so first two attacks of the round have a pretty good chance of hitting with how often monsters roll high on the dice bag. Now yes you can lower monster ab if you are gonna carry around a massive stack of bigby interposing hands I suppose, or have a cleric throwing out crusades and prayers but then that goes into the need for a caster again.

I don't really have a solution for what I'm asking for, I'll be honest, but I'd like to see a dungeon where non-caster classes can shine, mostly speaking about fighters/barbarians.

Non casters have a great chance at the Frost Giants since the clerics use Word of Faith to dismantle any summon. Are you suggesting it should be soloable? Well, it can be. By a melee character who doesn't have that high of AC no less.

If you desire nothing on the server to hit you beyond at 5% chance, then that is almost laughable. These Frost Giants have higher or equal AB to many bosses. Their purpose is to threaten the melee line. Their AC is weak, their saves are pathetic. Their weapon has no damage additions beyond the +5 enchantment. They are suppose to hurt, and they are suppose to hit, and they are suppose to be a threat. Relying on your teammate to provide ways to deal with their 40-15% chance of hitting 54 AC is not a weakness. It's good roleplay.

Personally what I'd like to see less of is the inclusion of multiple dispels per encounter, as even in a party, if you do Ogre Lords at the suggested level using only primary caster buffs, you'll still get at least a few wards stripped per encounter with the mages, which then puts you at a disadvantage as the dungeons do not at all seem designed for unwarded people to be going through.

Before someone suggests using consumables to replace dispelled wards, there are several issues with that, namely that every last one of your consumables will go away in the next dispel.  I would have no problem with dispels being so prevalent if caster NPCs were not also slinging flesh to stones, and massive amounts of damage spells while decently high AB enemies are chopping at you.  From what I've seen of Ogre Lords, you can either run right through it with zero effort (assuming a full "balanced" party) or you crash and burn really fast.  There's no enjoyment in a dungeon that you either skate through or get crushed by personally.

Of course, this is just like...  my opinion man.

When I adventure I do so with Bass.

I've been able to solo ogre lord's since level 14 or so. Even with dispels. In the frost giants?  Even in a well rounded party I'm just extra baggage. Disjunction is my bane.

The bane of all clerics.

I'm not sure what exactly you think the mechanics should be KoA, but at no point should you be able to out-AC a dungeon tuned for your level.  The monsters should have a good chance to hit you, perhaps even a better chance than you have to hit them.

Why?  Simple.  You have access to a bag full of healing items.  They do not. In many cases you also have concealment, where aside from the mages, they do not.

I assure you that 54 AC is more than enough to clear any dungeon on the server at present. It's even enough for the high end dragon encounters.  I'll mention this as well, as I've seen a number of epic PCs that are not using the high tier heal potions.  Those potions are there for two reasons.  1) To mitigate the damage I expect you will probably take in the high level dungeons, and 2) as a gold sink.   (Let's be honest, many epics are sitting on well over 5 mil. GP )  If you are trying to survive these places on cure crit or lesser healing potions, well that may be why you get killed.


Now, on to dispels.

Some areas have too many per encounter. I am aware of this and will be adjusting accordingly. (Some spawns in Lightning Peak come to mind.)  Most do not.  If you're running with 1-3 member parties, you may feel overwhelmed by dispels, because I tend to assume groups larger than that.  I have made some concessions though.

The first being, almost every non-boss NPC with a dispel has nothing better than Greater Dispel.  (This means you can out-level it, and there's no Breach effect.)

Disjunctions, I try to restrict to the boss creatures, as they are usually Many vs. 1 fights and they should be tough.  This may change in the lvl 25+ dungeons.

Part of the reason for the mass of dispels though, is the mass of immunities that a well rounded party has.  They render just about any non-damage effect useless.  This is possibly indicative of a larger balance issue, but I'm not sure that is something that is feasible to change.

It's kind of baked into D&D's structure, as is the assumption that you'll have buffs available at that level that can withstand an incoming dispel. (Either by being sufficiently high level, or being baked into your equipment.)

Re: Concealment, you only have that if you're a mage or UMDing...  which is really kind of a huge limitation for classes like Paladins who can't multiclass into Rogue unless they're a Tormtar.  Also, if concealment is included in the calculations for dungeon difficulty, that may be why Veir runs into such huge issues even at places that he's over level to be visiting (though I mean I guess he does okay if spamming heal kits, but that seems... immersion breaking I guess).

The other thing I've noticed as a DM in PNP is that when the party hits a certain level, it gets really hard to solve the problem of making interesting encounters by stripping wards (which the sheer volume over multiple encounters guarantees unless you're over the CL limit of dispelling, which kind of limits the buffers whose buffs stay useful to post epic casters, or level 20 casters in Ogre Lords specifically).  

The biggest thing is not that Ogre Lords and other places get difficult when you're dispelled, it's that for your average human or elf or dwarf PC, it goes from doable at the suggested level range to absolutely lethal (in my experiences at least) with little chance for a successful run, which makes it not fun to run.  It was fun before the dispels, as it was still difficult at points, but the regular mook spawns found everywhere in the dungeon weren't suddenly TPKing you because the tank's wards got dispelled and he got put down, and then everyone else got dispelled and put down, until the whole party is running off of scrolls (which then makes every encounter a dispel, fight for your life, reward, repeat scenario).

I haven't ever seen a wipe at Ogre Lord's passed a DM controlling the chessboard. That's probably the most frequented mid-range dungeon on the server, and it's not because it's too difficult.

Maybe it's just that I'm doing it wrong or something then.

*raises hand sheepishly* I've been involved in a wipe (at the chessboards) in Ogre Lords... playerside.  Bad bad tactics and dispels.  It was a while ago, but... yeah.  It can happen.

I have seen plenty of wipes at the ogre lords at the chess board. I was with Bella at least once. It usually happens when you go at a two early of a level.

I've been involved in a few almost wipes and...  three or so wipes, and yeah they were when lower level PCs were brought along and the party really fell to two people to carry.  

I'm not saying it's too difficult; what I'm trying to say is that unless you stick to one of the scroll-caddy builds, which can reliably rebuff themselves multiple times over the course of the dungeon, it becomes extremely lethal really fast.  So my issue isn't that it's too hard, but that it really feels like it pigeonholes PCs into the kind of standard build here (UMD points, or massive numbers of scrolls readable by a caster).

Well, I won't argue server balances around every buff available doesn't diminish build diversity. Managing proper dispels will fix that.

Not if the content is then over the top for the resulting un-buffed party.  Ogre Lords seemed pretty balanced before the addition of dispels and the AI (which I believe was later replaced), and I haven't seen any downward tweaking of the scariness of the non-casters now that dispels are a pretty real threat there to many parties.  (or maybe it's just that I can't wrap my head around what is enjoyable about hitting the same combo of scrolls and potions between encounters to rebuff.  I mean, there can't be anyone that enjoys the buffing part of adventuring more than the adventuring itself can there?)

Because with the scroll caddy mentality, that's what happens, and then you have dungeons that are really easy or utterly destroy you (which Ogre Lords seems to be, really easy provided you're over the majority of the dispel caps there, or utterly destructive if you're not).

I'll always be against the idea of making any dungeons weaker when almost half of the dungeons go unexplored due to level acceleration. If we are to balance dungeons around being buffless, then those who don't mind or even -insist- on having all the buffs will just run through the content at an easier pace than they already are.

I guess I'm an advocate for more hardcore rules and ways, but I don't believe dungeons on this server are at all difficult. Some of them are unfun and have a mock-difficulty, but the creatures themselves are often not difficult once you examine them.

I'd rather see players bleeding out after an encounter than groaning about the tedious task of spending a few more of their hundreds of scrolls to breeze through mountaining more gold they can't spend.

I wasn't suggesting to make them weaker, I was more saying it's a problem when a dungeon is either breeze easy or gets you dead to rights depending on your build and whether you take full advantage of a semi broken system (like scrolls being so light as to let a low strength PC cart around thousands of them, and having multiple containers that reduce space and weight constraints for consumables even more.  I mean, that'd be one way to remove the need for dispels and an assumption of full buffing right there, and it wouldn't even take anything away from PCs (giving weight back to scrolls and making scroll cases not reduce weight of items inside them).

I'd be all for removing most of the spell scrolls from the game and actually going back to wizards scribing them and trading them.  It's kind of silly that a rogue with a tiny bit of UMD or a AA with a single wizard level can just buy stacks and stacks of high level buff scrolls.

I'd actually really be up for something like this, as it would make dungeons much easier to balance I would imagine.

then I guess I have the wrong mindset, If I'm getting constantly hit in a dungeon I feel like a bitch. I don't wanna play a medieval fantasy RPG to feel like a bitch lol.

You shouldn't have to pretty much get through a dungeon via money aka spending massive amounts of gold on healing items. In no way does that feel epic or bad ass etc.

Let's keep in mind that EVEN WHEN you have enough AC that the mobs can only hit you on a 20 they still hit you CONSTANTLY. Like Arc with basic buffs(50AC) doing Witch Lords even with Stone skin up at the beginning I use the maul and I one to two shot each skeleton but I STILL am down to like 100 hp out of 250 HP by the time I reach the part where I'm about to go underwater.

I'm not sure it would make balance easier as you would -

A) Need to rebalance every dungeon around the new model something I am assuming we don't really have the resources to do even if it was considered desirable.

B) Pick which tier you want your dungeon to be capable of challenging the upper tier which would consist of those with innate spell casting ability and the lower tier which would include everyone else.

The reason stated for monsters to start throwing around dispels is to get rid of not the AC buff spells of a fighter but the immunity spells such as death ward and magic circle. I think the problem is never going to be the AC buffs because it is very simple to raise a monsters attack bonus. The real issue that is being run into here is the very binary nature of D&D's magic system. The all or nothing dilemma as it where.

If spells like Death Ward are a concern then potentially it is these spells that need to be changed.

It could potentially be changed to block X amount of spells with the death descriptor before it runs out and make the amount of spells it blocks dependant on caster level and you have just introduced an incentive and an advantage a natural caster would have over a scroll.

Or

Or have death ward and its ilk work as a % chance to block a spell with the death descriptor and as you increase in caster level that % likewise increases with you.

The problem with mass-dispelling is that the D&D system of encounters just simply isn't designed for it. You'll be hitting four encounters a day (it assumes) and if each of those encounters has a caster in it you may be dealing with four potential dispel situations and you can use appropriate non-real time tactics to counter them. In NWN (and CD's dungeons) you can encounter a creature with the capacity to dispel in every single encounter within a dungeon but instead of four you're dealing with 20+ of these.

That being said I don't find any of the encounter overtly difficult but then I have never attempted them with a pure fighter build. I just find the dispels a little bit annoying as they are often very frequent in some dungeons rather than an unusual or interesting tactic you need to counter occasionally.

Or alternatively design things that use thing that get around the massive number of immunities.  That's how I've always designed encounters for balance at higher level, and it works really well.  For example, no one is immune to petrification via spells that I know of, which is why I actually thematically like the stoning which occurs in Ogre Lords (much better than any amount of dispel spam), throw maze spells at people (again, really cool, not any immunities that I know of), or make the mages use more of their spells on buffing their fellow Ogres (ie give the Ogres GMW'd axes, stoneskin, etc and take the used number of spells out of the spell lists of the Mages).

I'd be completely willing to do such work to make the server more fun for everyone, and I suspect others would be too.

Oh also, spells like Lehel's Vicious Vertigo...  That would be so great to have NPCs throw, as it...  well actually makes the encounter way more difficult when you have to battle a changing camera angle to switch targets, etc.

There are certainly some affects like Maze and Petrification effects that work around immunities (i.e. no immunities exist) but how many encounters can you design that use Maze and Flesh to Stone to challenge people before it becomes a bit gimmicky?

I think the petrification chance works really well in the Ogres dungeon because it is used sparingly enough to not be cheesy (because everyone rolls a 1 eventually) and it is also easy to remedy and recover from with a prepared party. The same is likewise true for Maze it is a very good way of temporarily inconveniencing and disrupting a party but both allow the party to recover from it without major disruption to their run if they react appropriately.

There is sadly not many other examples of such spells in NWN. If you alter how out-right immunity spells work then you add a bit more tension to the use of other types of spells such as death and mind-affecting without the need for dispels wrecking the buffs that are considered appropriate and have acted as a decent gold sink.

I would like if magic circle of alignment and deathward provided a % chance of blocking the spell. That sounds fun. In a game of dice RNG is always the best option. 4% per level or something?

Are you taking into account the mages that can spawn in there that don't care about your AC? There are massive amounts of enemies in there, eventually they will all get a 20. You're not "A bitch" if you take damage, that just means your character it -mortal-. Witchlords, in some areas, can still put the swing on the higher level characters. Hell, when the mages can drop six chain lightnings in the first area, that can put a smack on anyone.

Nope I'm talking about pure damage from arrows and swords, Arc isn't high enough level that the mages spawn and even if they did that chain lightning spam wouldn't hurt him since he is half blue dragon.

I need to place a HUGE order of Imp invis scrolls with a mage cuz AC without concealment doesn't mean diddly.

And no you aren't a "Bitch" if you take damage but it makes the character feel weak if you are almost dieing when you know you are stronger than that.

I mean Arc is no slouch, he's sparred against epic leveled characters with both people being buffed and WON, but then dispels come around and unnfffff.


Anyhow like I said I don't really have much of a solution, I'm just putting it out there for the people that might have an idea to toss the idea out.

If that's how you really feel then D&D probably isn't the game for you, or at the very least not without massive house ruling (Armor As DR might be an alternate ruleset that appeals to you, for example). Because the game is designed around the idea that even an encounter with a CR equal to your level - a "basic", relatively-easy encounter - is still supposed to burn 25% of your daily resources: HP, spell slots, per-day abilities, and such like. Anything that goes far enough below that to demand a minute or ignorable percentage of your resources is not supposed to give XP because it's too easy an encounter.

An actually challenging encounter - say, CR party level +2 - should burn 50% of those resources. An epic encounter - CR party level +4 - should burn 75%, and is assumed to be used for climactic encounters like boss battles and other major plot fights.

HP is the most fluid, cheapest, and most easily restored of those resources. Most of the others either can't be restored at all without rest, or can only be restored in minute amounts with extremely expensive magic (such as Pearls of Power for spell slots).

So yes, D&D does assume that, even at the highest levels, the party Fighter-type(s) will be taking a great deal of HP damage in even the most basic, run-of-the-mill combats that are high enough level to be worth XP to them, in your words "like a bitch". And that the party will spend 25% of their resources in dealing with that - either that fraction of their spells or magic items on-hand to heal you back to full, or simply leaving you with those HPs lost until you get low enough to actually be in danger of dying.

In D&D perhaps yes, but trying to play NWN like its D&D doesn't work. At least not with the dungeons in the module... I could see this happening in a DM run event but not the usual dungeons.

I've been playing D&D since 3rd grade (Back then it was first Edition with my dad where elf was a class). D&D is definitely my thing... but I don't treat NWN as D&D because it just will never be that.

I feel I should also point out that if we're going by anything approaching "you should burn 25% of your daily stuff per CR equivalent encounter,"  then we should go to a turn based combat system where the dice are not weighted for NPCs to roll 20s, and where concealment is not hugely more beneficial than improved AC.  Oh, and every CR appropriate encounter should then force you to burn about 100 scrolls.

Or we could rebalance the biggest thing causing an issue (which would likely help with lag too), and add weight back to scrolls, then limit the types and maybe number you can purchase (meaning say scrolls of 1 through third circle might be available in shops, at a low CL, but that's it).

You are going to get hit.  That's just how it works.
No matter how high your AC, no matter how well you manage to keep 50% concealment up (good luck with that), something in melee is going to hit you.  This is not a skill based game where that can be dodged/avoided/etc.  The engine will roll a 20 and you will take damage.

Now, this works both ways.  You also get to hit whatever you want on a 20.  So even that Mage with horrid AB, can still get a hit on that Dragon on a good roll.  The 'dice' are not weighted one way or another, the system is just generating numbers.  But this is where your supplies come into play.  See, the system is actually weighted in your favor, as most of you have a bag or six stuffed full of healing supplies.  Or have someone with you who does.  Do you know how hard it is to kill a decently high AC fighter with solid HP when a Cleric is standing there healkiting him?  (Hint: You have to kill the Cleric)  I may have made the AI smarter, but compared to players, it is still deeply stupid.  Am I saying abuse it?  NO.   I'm saying play smart.


Side note on spells/immunities etc.   The Spell Mantle function actually allows for Spell School specific Mantle effects.  ie: I can set an effect that stops X levels of Necromancy spells and lasts long enough that you either have to Breach it off or blow through it.  Similarly, I can easily alter things like Protection vs Magic to be more like Stoneskin, where they can be torn down by damage, rather than constant immunity until duration ends or dispelled.  I may very well make both of these changes in some instances, which I think would make for an environment where dispel was much less necessary.  Again, this is mostly for the scroll stackers.  Any mage worth their salt can usually resist a dispel attempt.  Especially as I have yet to put in any NPCs using the Shadow Weave.  *cough*

Now that would be a dungeon that I'd love to see...  Then again, maybe I'm just slightly evil...

Oh, the Spell School specific wards will be showing up soon enough.  I have a few unique uses in mind for them.

From my own observations from playing this game for far too long regarding those "loaded dice" particularly for those who bump their ACs and saves to unspeakable numbers. The game has a difficulty setting. If you gear/buff yourself to the point that the you need to roll "1"s to fail saves and have an AC that is X points higher than what the mobs can hit on a 19 the game will start having you roll those "1"s and the mobs will start rolling those "20"s more frequently to try to give an appropriate challenge. It is the game's way of trying to deal with / counter what you have done. If you can pump your AC to 56 and you know that on a 19 they can only hit a 47 AC.. it actually behooves you to not get that high. Self cap your AC in the high 40s and you actually will find you get hit less.  

Tenor, that was pretty deliberate misreading/misapplying what I said. I was clearly referring to the base D&D game and obviously there's things in that that don't apply to NWN, nobody's stupid enough to suggest otherwise, I'm certainly not, and I'm a bit insulted you seem to think I have.

But the game IS built off D&D, and it IS going to retain some of the core game's mechanics and designs. One of those being, as Vincent said, "You are going to get hit". You are going to lose HP. And if the encounter is at all challenging, you will get hit multiple times, and require resources - either your own or an ally's, magic, potions, or healkits - to keep up the fight. THAT is what I meant by quoting the encounters section of the rulebooks - Vincent just said it a bit more succinctly, but it is built into the game that anything that cannot manage to scratch you is not worth your time and gives zero reward.

And, since CD has been designed around the assumption that there will be high-level casters buffing every fighter and 90% of people in dungeons have a backpack full of scrolls, the combat on the server has taken that into account and been arranged and prepared accordingly. If you want to adjust what's available in the game re: scrolls and such like, the server will need to be rearranged accordingly - which will be a ton of work that I'm not seeing very many volunteers stepping forward to take the plate.

I'm not sure what deliberate misreading or misapplying I did...  In fact I'm quite certain I qualified my statement with "if that's what we're going for."

And yeah, you're going to get hit, and risk for reward and all that, but it's indicative of a problem that vast stores of consumables (so vast that stack sizes have been bumped multiple times, and weight on scrolls is zeroed out), are assumed (and thus are required) to go through the higher level content of the server.  To be clear, the issue I'm seeing is not that buffs are required, but that unless the entire party is buffed to the point where they literally have every buff imaginable each (in which case, everything's a cakewalk), then the dungeons are entirely over the top and not completable.  I get that there's a meta everywhere, but the meta here is sooo far skewed to full casters and UMDers that it's nigh impossible to not be one of those or bring along a bunch of them in order to run a dungeon meant for any of the 16+ party levels.  God forbid you take a barbarian, a pair of rangers, a paladin and a fighter to those areas where none are UMDers (except that that party is...  the same CR and should be able to find a way around said dungeon without resorting to hiring a couple buffbots to cover them with ridiculous levels of spell protection.

Maybe I'm off the mark, but I thought a big part of CD was making it enjoyable for everyone, not just gish PCs and primary casters.

I am quite excited about the changes to immunities should really make an interesting dynamic.

I think (and correct me if I am incorrect) CD a long time ago decided that it wanted to be able to challenge the 'balanced group' so it has set all of its dungeons to be able to do this (with varying degrees of success) however that involves having the fundamental make up of these dungeons be able to challenge and cope with the amount of buffs that those type of parties would bring. If you reduce the encounters so people who do not comprise of the 'balanced group' can accomplish them then you weaken the dungeon against its original target audience.

The compromise has always been the scrolls and the proliferation of magical items that allow this 'unbalanced group' to compete but at an additional cost in gold, items and risk. I would be in favour of adding magical items that any class can use that cover the basics without the need for UMD as these builds are much more heavily disadvantaged than others - potentially adding it into items like shield and armours or even just more disposables.

However from what I have taken from this thread one of the base assumptions of CDs design goals is that it is simply a fact that you need magical assistance at high levels.

You really do need real magical assistance, too.

There's a huge margin between scroll spells and caster spells. Sure, UMD is the devil... until about 12-15 layers of buffs get stripped off in a single dispel, including level 7 and level 8 buffs. And everything dispels, in most dungeons... not just bosses, and it doesn't have to be a boss for you to get de-buffed.

From the point of view of UMD, there's really no problem right now. Dispels rightfully remove scroll buffs... but leave on buffs from a decently-levelled caster. If someone has a build that includes only a few, e.g., 10 caster levels to complement a fighting build, then this is different... and it's more like the scroll situation, and again, rightfully so...

As for items that give buffs without UMD, these exist already. Between the Raven's Plume, and the jewelry shops and their rings, you can reproduce most scroll buffs with use/day items, and potions.

I don't think dungeons here will ever be easy for a group of all martial combatants. Nor should it be, in my opinion. If you want to do epic dungeons, take a full party including a rogue, mage, cleric, and fighter. If you don't have one of those elements, out may increase the dungeon CR and you might consider a lower end dungeon. Zarus was a straight fighter, but did well by allying with mages. Its a useful technique.

The server is meant to be enjoyable by as many as we can accommodate. It will not be, and no server ever will be, ideal for every person and every play style. The "party" example you provided is far from the typical party that most DnD is built around. Usually that is a melee type, a divine caster, an arcane caster, and a rogue. Encounters are primarily built to assume this sort of party. If you run about with all melee types then you are quite obviously not going to be adequately prepared.

Which is a great design principle to base a PNP campaign around, but unless you intentionally build such a party and schedule dungeon runs (semi-OOCly it feels like), then you're not likely to have a party at all like that in NWN.

Then again, maybe instead of belaboring this point, I should offer to make a few dungeons that are friendly to melee classes rather than mages in the mid to high level range (not post epic, since I have -no- idea how to make a challenging experience post epic).

Good luck doing that without making it something the mages or mage-fighters/buffed clerics can easily tromp, without just making it a dispel fest. The entire game is balanced against you. I guess if you like a challenge....

I think a big challenge you'll face is what would challenge a caster that would be easier for a fighter? A fighter is essentially a high bab character who has feats that stop becoming useful after about level 6. A barbarian is a high bab character who doesn't even get the feats.

There isn't much in the way of unique things they can do that other classes and combinations can't also do. The cleric being the prime example that not only does it get a low level spell that can make up for its 3/4 bab but it also gets access to spells that allow it to do more damage in combat and while it can wear the same armour as the fighter character it then gets a slew of spells to enhance it. You remove the spells? You get a PC with the same AC and a marginally lower AB.

That being said I would love someone to build new dungeons so certainly wouldn't want to discourage someone from adding new content. It just seems like it would be an uphill struggle to address the fundamental imbalance between melee and magic without changes to the actual classes themselves.

Tenor ...the server is meant for Roleplay which generally means parties. Most folks do not seem to have a problem finding/forming a party. Yes it may require a little OOC via tells to help arrange it. Usually the mere mention of heading out somewhere while in central will prompt a number of folks to ask if you want/need help or at least ask where are you heading which would lead to opportunity to ICly invite them along. It is really not nearly the trial you seem to be making it out to be.

There are also numerous groups that have formed and are forming that can help you get involved with a group so that you can get a more balanced party together. If one doesn't suit you, start one that does. Take some initiative. 

 Feel free to build dungeons. The more the merrier. Though I will say there are already many that are melee friendly as you suggest. My lvl 12 dwarven fighter tromps through most mid level dungeons with little more than a bulls pot, an endurance pot and some heal kits. No ECL or mage required. Addition of mages or clerics simply makes them easier. 

Well really I would be fine with it if we needed a well balanced party but the fact is... that one cleric or that one high level mage or that one caster gish, can plow through the dungeons on there own , only the mords will get them.

They have NO need for the fighter/barb/front liner.

That and I guess its just one of my things but the dungeons on the server I don't consider being something that's supposed to be stupid hard where you use like 300,000 gold worth of supplies to get through them.

I usually only expect that kind of difficulty in a DM event. Anything where a DM isn't involved I expect to be able to beat the crap out of, I know I build my characters well. However dispels are just... they make me want to punch the Orphans... all of them... >.<

As I stated earlier in the thread, you really can't - it's built into the core mechanics of the game - without introducing new mechanics such as the things that were brought in near the tail end of 3.5 that narrowed the gap slightly such as Book of Nine Swords, Tome of Magic, and such like, or Pathfinder's revamps to some of the martial classes such as Ranger's Favored Terrains and Quarry, Barbarian Rage Powers, and so forth. (Fighters and Rogues still got the shaft, unfortunately, but that's a whole other can of trouble.)

With what NWN has made available to us, there's nothing a Fighter (without buffs, without scrolls, without magical assistance in any way) can take on that a Mage with a summoned monster or a self-buffing Cleric can't handle UNLESS it involves a horde of enemies sitting there spamming dispel, which this entire thread is based around being the latest definition of Not Fun. And there's quite a few things that those characters can still handle better even than the Fighter, even IF they're given buffs and not dispelled. It's just the nature of the beast - magic beats mundane, simple as that.

As Onivel said, the game is designed around parties. Mages buff the Fighters up, send them out to lay some havoc, throw down some attack or debuff or dispelling spells in the meantime. Clerics buff, share in the smashing of faces, heal, and occasionally join the mages in laying down magical cover fire. Rogues and rogue-types handle traps, scouting, and assist in the face-smashing once the Fighters and Clerics have the enemy's attentions. (Though the current prevalence of anti-rogue things like so many enemies being immune to Sneak Attacks makes this a bit more difficult, this at least is a small-enough scope problem that it can be handled on a case-by-case basis, or better future dungeons to be brought in can simply avoid using that particular crutch.)

Trying to design a dungeon to ignore or refute these designs is going to be near-impossible, or not accomplish the desired goal, because it simply can't be done. The game - both NWN and D&D - are not designed for it, when limited to the small scope of resources that NWN is: core-only content and a small selection of feats, spells, and prestige classes outside that. And NWN, the game engine itself, is just not capable of handling the resources from later in the 3.5 lifespan that worked to change that paradigm.

KoA .. Clerics have always been the beast class of DnD. Nearly all of the benefits of most other classes with few of the draw backs. If you really want to make fighters more relevant, tone down all the ungodly summons we have or significantly shorten their duration so that they are good for 1-2 encounters at most. I would be inclined more towards the later. Let them serve as the reinforcements for a bail out when the bulk of the party is getting overwhelmed or to bring in against boss NPCs. They are your fighter substitutes.

If they're running something close to appropriate for their level and not using summon scrolls that vastly outlevel the place then yes, they do need that front-liner.  Aelie is a lot less useful without someone like Victoria, Aesa, or Bass to hide behind ensuring she lives long enough to cast her spells, because even a 50 AC and 50% concealment doesn't change the fact that she dies in a few hits (3-4 in frost giants, or a crit and a stiff breeze) or a natural 1 on a saving throw vs. death (No death ward for the arcane caster) or petrification.  That front-liner is also going to be tasked with clearing out the hordes of mobs, since as you get to Witchlords the caster is going to run out of spells if they try to clear it all themselves.  The only class I could see reliably soloing dungeons is the cleric, and that's because a cleric is a fighter with their own buffs and heals.  I'd actually argue that a party without a front-liner is even more screwed at higher levels than one with no mage, since healing can be done through kits and the rogue can use scrolls but nobody can replace that high-DPS wall of HP known as the melee guy.  You can use summons in a pinch, but summons are, well, dumb.  They're also very hard to maneuver and they have a tendency to do stupid things at the worst possible time.  I'd much rather have a good PC fighter at my side than my dragon summon, even if said dragon is so much harder to kill, simply because the PC has a brain and knows not to charge ahead when I'm buffing, knows to kill the casters first, and won't accidentally hit me with its spells or abilities.

The best way to nerf the gish fighters and the clerics would be to knock the buff and summon spells to 3.5 durations - minutes per level rather than hours for the first, and minutes per level rather than 24 hours for the latter. Two main differences would be no buffing parties at the beginning of dungeons (rather, people would rely on scrolls for the chump encounters, and save actual, short-duration buff spells for boss fights) and summons being only used rarely as emergency backup or distractions, rather than long-term allies. (Also summons being nigh-useless before level 8 or so.)

THAT SAID, you're still going to end up with the issue of "Why buff the fighter when I, the cleric, can buff myself and be just as good or better in the fight?" Because, as Onivel said, Cleric (and Druid, though the majority of what makes a PnP Druid a badass did not make the trip into NWN) in 3.0/3.5 is quite easily the best class in the game, barring perhaps a God Wizard (again, most of whose tricks either didn't make it into NWN or got severely nerfed).

And, as stated before, it'll require a complete revamp of the server dungeons starting at about level 10 or so, because currently they are built with "players will have access to X Y Z buffs and be using them constantly" in mind. Changing the availability of those buffs, either through removal of scroll access or changing duration, will change the balance of the server drastically.

You didn't pick up Shadow Shield? Or one of the staves that casts it?

DERP.  I knew that, I have the freakin' spell.  I blame the holiday season.

A flip side to nerfing buffs and summons, though, is that it hits low-level characters a lot more than high-level characters.  Even if my summon only lasts minutes per level, that's still half an hour, and I can cast it nine times a day.  Compare that to the poor newbie mage whose badger lasts for three minutes and he can only cast it twice.  Low-level caster buffs will be nearly worthless since they often won't last longer than the fight you cast them for, especially if Fear comes into play (as it often does with low-level bosses).  I'm against that change for that reason, and only that reason.

A mage may be able to do a dungeon with a summon, but every mage would rather have a PC fighter/barb/whatever. Buffing up a summon and trying to solo things has to be the most boring playstyle imaginable ever. Sit in invisibility and heal your summon or whatever. It stinks.

The higher tier dungeon you get, the less summons become effective.

Maybe in dungeons that do not allow teleportation/ dimension door/ mords mansion, you could make casters not be able to summon either.


-Edit- I don't agree with changing stat-based buffs back to the duration they were a couple years ago. Buff's durations were made longer so mages could bring more offensive spells instead of just being back up and reback up copies of buffs to other people. People are going to have their basic animal buffs and stuff like that. Decreasing the duration back to the way it was would just add to the consumable/ inventory problem.

Yep, it's a legitimate reason.

And with that combined with the MASSIVE overhaul the server would require to adapt to a change of mechanics like that, I'm likewise against it. That is a STUPID LOT of work for very little gain.


Agreed wholeheartedly. In addition, unless you just really like going out and killing things and have no interest in interacting with other players, it's got to be mind-numbingly dull. Whereas taking along the local sword master and giving him/her a share of your spells and setting them loose as a wrecking ball of destruction on the enemies is far more entertaining IMO, and has the opportunity for RP and interaction involved to boot.

I should point out there was a server very recently that actually balanced all the classes very well, and managed to balance their content very well as well.  And, the best part is, their code is all open source.

**But of course, as previously said by edge, that would necessitate re-balancing the whole server (which while it would be a big project, wouldn't be so bad if it was both a shared effort by many people and made things more balanced for everyone right?)

I'm not familiar with whatever server you're dancing around, so could you tell us what it is/was directly please?

If it is actually balanced, and the resources can be integrated with our own stuff without conflict or further headaches for Vincent (who, for the most part, is the only script wizard we have left) then yeah, it might be a step in the right direction. But we'd have to determine that before even considering the idea of asking sufficient numbers of people to step forward to help in a conversion effort.

In NWN there are much easier changes that can be made that can make a significant difference to the way things work due to things like the Z axis simply does not exist and a lot of the source material that makes the casters mental broken (instead of just broken) simply doesn't exist. While the gap between what melee can do in comparison to magic is not quite as great as it is in D&D. 

That being said CD has never shared that vision and that is fine to be honest it is an old server and it is what it is. The server design was built around a specific party dynamic and that is why when people try and run things outside of that dynamic the difficulty will increase or diminish appropriately.

I think adjustments to the immunity spells would allow the challenges Vincent is looking to create and would result in less dispels stripping fighter types of their more essential buffs and leave dispels as a tactic favoured by the more significant enemies like boss monsters. 

That is a pretty decent compromise from both positions and we also might get some cool new dungeons to explore.

The idea of what would create ultimate balance is largely irrelevant because no-one really agrees what that is and on a server where Adamantium Full Plate, Shadow Adept and Hospillater are actual things people can play with. It would be nearly impossible to create that balance if on the off chance everyone agreed and the resources to do so where also present.

Lets take the small wins where we can and be happy for it. 

I would also like to note that not every cleric is a melee beast. While it is possible with the tools available, some choose not to go that route, just as not all fighters will be sword and board etc. So many of us must rely on parties as much as anyone else. D&D games don't start without some ooc collaboration, so getting a group together for adventure is no different.

It's also not quite so easy to just go "oh, sure, we can use that". This sort of stuff is not just plug and play, there are no simplified install wizards to merge code bases and haks. People get paid serious money in the real world to do things like that. Changing it takes effort, incorporating new stuff takes effort, because it can all very easily break stuff, especially when operating on a server to the complexity level of CD.

Now, if we were starting from scratch, it'd be a different matter, because we wouldn't have to worry about the legacy stuff... but that's really not an option.

As for 'balance', no, I can guarantee you it isn't - why?  Because "Balanced" is an opinion judgment, as any glance at any number of forums for any number of games will clearly show.  There has never been a game in existence where at least someone didn't think it needed tweaking.

I think balance is something that can be objectively measured but only within a subjective framework. If something has worked to your specifications is something that can be defined as either a yes or a no (within reason). It is the construction of the framework that is the difficulty and it is the framework itself that will often come under fire. 

For example if the design goal for CD is - Red swords should be stronger than Yellow swords and the game is balanced to achieve that end we can objectively see if that is the case or not.

If red should be stronger than yellow is something people will argue over and that is because people have different tastes and different expectations of what type of game we're playing and due to this being a co-operative multi player game of make believe tea party that has literally had hundreds of different contributors over the years it is understandable that people do come to it with different expectations. 

If CD even had any specific design goals and a structured approach to its construction? I have no idea. I would assume a loose framework existed and that has probably changed a bit overtime. I am pretty sure FW or Vincent could elaborate if they wished but it is nearly impossible to argue coherently for an idea (especially around the concept of balance) unless you have a specific design goal behind it and then how this change achieves that goal. 

For example I could argue Goblins should receive + 25 to all statistics, gain the ability to cast spells like a sorcerer of their HD and gain a breath weapon in the name of balance. Rightfully people may question my sanity. If I then explained it is because I wanted to make Goblins balanced with Dragons. Then again people may question my sanity but there would be an actual starting point where people could attempt to explain to me why Goblins were weaker foes and why not all monsters needed to be balanced with each other etc.  

Can we keep the discussion on how to manage dispels and buff control? I can barely follow.

QFT.  Ever since I dropped Blackguard with Bass, he's absolute shite all around.  Groups are a requirement, these days.

Oh I definitely know that feeling. My own cleric is a caster character, far from melee oriented, preferring to stand back and blast more than buff up and smash faces. Which as far as a pure power perspective is definitely in NWN the suboptimal choice.

I see people clean up with clerics but I've never been able to really make it work.

Clerics offer the widest variety of builds over any other class. It's very difficult to build one so poorly they can't perform in one way or another. I have an evocation, pure int-wis-cha turn undead, smite evil, exorcist based cleric who plays more like a wizard. I also have a cleric who is nothing but wisdom/charisma and uses zen archery/ divine might and damage prayers/ buffs to do damage with a longbow. He never casts any offensive spells. All his skill points are into open lock/ disarm trap though, so with his 8 con, he'd be pretty dookie at attempting melee against anything decent.

The standard full wisdom, strength melee cleric with war domain and no RP restrictions on spell choice is the most dangerous and common cleric choice though. They will bring whatever it takes to get the job done most effectively, and with two spells can turn themselves into full BAB fighters with equal damage. Their biggest enemy is being dispelled, however. A buffless cleric, or a cleric who has ran out of spells is usually a fish in a barrel.