Cormyr and the Dalelands

I began playing on this server a little under a month and played here for about two weeks, at which point I stopped playing.  I was originally going to make a more detailed thread but couldn't work up the energy to do it and wound up saying nothing.  I was thinking earlier today, though, and decided I owed it to Fire Wraith especially and a few other people who were extremely helpful and patient to mention why I decided to stop playing here.

I'll say up front that I certainly realize I'm not the target audience of this server because I, quite frankly, don't care about RP at all.  That doesn't mean I dislike RP, it means I care about story and adventure regardless if it's IC or OOC.  If the server is interesting and there are things happening that are fun, I don't care if it's IC or not.  I play an adventurer, that means I want to adventure -- which could be anything from trying to find a long-lost temple in order to restore it to tracking down a dragon and slaying it to participating in some political drama to figuring out a murder mystery.  But I generally like *doing* things most of the time, not just chatting about my day, if that makes sense.

The Good
- A lot of the areas are gorgeous.  Seriously.  Believe me when I say I'm not normally the type of person to just sit there and drink in an area, but I went BEYOND that to actually take screenshots of some areas like this:



- The people are extremely helpful.  Well, I can't vouch for everyone, to be fair, but everyone I had contact with was quite nice.  Particular mentions to Fire Wraith for amazing patience, Dagesh, and someone who plays a very orderly cleric of Helm who I unfortunately do not remember the name of off-hand.

- Area layout was generally quite interesting and not just the "tunnel with mobs in the way" that you often find.

- Some of the commands like "/leap" were impressive.

- Some of the mobs had some kind of health percentage sign, which I haven't seen elsewhere.  How did you do that, if you don't mind me asking?

The Bad
- Experience.  Experience experience experience.  Experience.  Specifically at level 8+.  I completely understand that you don't want players to arrive on server and a week later be caught up with people who have been here for years.  I completely understand that you want progression to generally be about characters rather than a mechanical race to level cap or something.

But at the same time, I think you've gone too far the other way.  I randomly did a check one night and was thrilled when I saw this:



The fact that I was ONLY the lowest level PC by 2 levels and most other people were ONLY 6ish levels above me seemed MUCH better than average.  The thing is, and it's easy to forget this, it's not fun to be useless.  For reference, I'm sitting here with +2 gear at level 9 with Cure Critical Wounds potions being used in emergencies only due to cost and that level 14 is running around with 5-6 more AC, 6-7 more AB, 70-80% more HP, better saves, and likely plentiful access to more powerful potions (if they're a warrior type).  And that level 14 is still below the median level AND average level, so just imagine what those level 16+ characters are like.

I don't want to be dragged along on DM events and shepherded because I'll die constantly without attention or be forced to hide in the back.  I'm certainly not expecting to be the strongest character in the group, I don't even mind being the weakest.  But I want to be able to actually contribute something rather than be a complete liability.

And this isn't a problem I can solve in a few days or work or even a week of work.  Even if I was level 10, I would need 12000 non monster XP to just reach level 13.  I recall reading how the XP ticker gives 300 XP per day in around 4 hours of being active.  So if I spent 4 hours being active each day then I could hit level 13 in...40 days.  120 hours of playing just to get the XP ticker bonuses.

When I realized this problem, I decided to see if I might be able to attend a scheduled DM event that would even be open to me.  At the time, there was nothing.  I just looked again and apparently a single event was held on June 5th that I could have gone to if I was still playing here at the time.  But that's it.  Quests are shot too as you'll see below.  So I'm left without any reasonable options here to actually play with the vast majority of players here.

- Quests.  I killed the bandit leader in the sewers and got 200 XP as I recall. I spent like an hour and a half exploring every inch of the Haunted Halls and finding a painting.  My reward?  Less gold than the painting vendors for and...drumroll...200 XP.  I've also done the goblin eggs and wizard's tower quests.  400 XP each as I recall.  I couldn't manage the bandit hideout for the mirror (more below).  These XP amounts are pitiful.  My original idea was that I could do one quest per level to get the non-monster XP required to level.  So, in theory...

Bandit Leader lets you hit 9.
Haunted Halls lets you hit 10.
Eggs lets you hit 11.
Wizard's tower lets you hit 12.
Mirror lets you hit 13.

And then at that point I at least have +3 gear and am high enough level to be able to contribute reasonably to most groups.  But that plan was completely shot with the fact the quests give an incredibly tiny amount of experience.  I've done all but Mirror and am still well short of 10.

I originally thought the point of the quests was to prevent people from finding an efficient spot to grind mobs for fast XP and instead force them to travel the world and go different places...but that evidently isn't the case at all.

- Lack of information for new players, such as:

Shops apparently have multiple tiers.  There's no reason a new player would think this and I would never have returned to a shopkeeper at a higher level solely to see if he offered something different.  I only found out this existed because I couldn't figure out how to kill trolls here and someone told me to buy a fire damage weapon -- which led to me asking "Er, from where?" and the person explaining that a better store would be available from the weaponsmith on my next level if I went back to see him.  Never would have guessed.

Having to look up maps of Cormyr to try to figure out where to go for some quests because there are no signs or NPCs who can give directions to something your character should know IC.  I understand Fire Wraith has updated at least some of the signs as a result of our conversation on this matter but things like that could be a problem.

Fishing for area transitions.  Especially in forest areas, trying to figure out where an area transition is hidden due to lack of map note.  Originally I just made my own map notes...lots of them...and then discovered these disappear on server reset.  I understand Fire Wraith is at least considering enabling map notes for those and hopes to have "seamless" area transitions enabled in the future, but it was/is a problem for new players.

- Excess areas.  I mentioned before that many of the areas are beautiful.  There also seem to be way too many of them at times with no apparent use, an example would be the forest near Semberholme.  So many areas that consist of "yet more forest" or "lake area #3."  Most of them look great, mind you, but it feels like there's just a ton of empty areas that serve no purpose and like half of them could be eliminated without losing anything.

Conclusion
The actual moment I quit came while trying to do the bandit mirror quest in an attempt to be able to hit level *10.*  This was my third attempt at doing so, trying to figure out ways to survive things like a DC 19 Slay Living (wound up using potions of Constitution for the +2 fort and Intelligence for the another 1 bonus from spellcraft plus buying a +2 fort ring).  You see, all of a sudden every spawn consisted of a level 13+ cleric and 11+ mage (or the other way around, forget) along with 4+ bandits.  And it turns out these spellcasters are happy to dispel you as well.  Massive step up in difficulty from previous quests, especially considering these were just trash mobs, not a boss or even sub-boss.  Even being level 10 would have made no difference, I'd get a whole 1 AB and 1 Reflex.

Maybe the next tier of gear at level 11 would be enough but that was another full level away AFTER I hit level 10.  And so I sat there stuck.  The next quest I could do was impossible for me, there were no DM events listed as coming up (or even recently happening) that I could participate in, and it would take me another 13+ hours of the XP ticker just to hit level 10.  So I said "That's it, this just isn't worth it" and haven't logged on since.

So apologies to the people I mentioned who were extremely helpful and very patient, but I just couldn't justify continuing to play here.  I know the server as a whole actually has a very good population, but I very much doubt you're going to attract many new players with some of the current policies.  Best of luck to you all regardless and happy gaming.

I half agree with you... Mostly on the matter that it's not fun to be a low level character. Your character often lags behind in group outings with no real way of explaining it in-character, and wrestling with rats for a week straight gets tedious after awhile, that part I can understand. Moving on though, let's see if I can hit on all topics brought up here... I'm not the sort of person who will hop on a forum for the specific reason to attempt to make you think you're wrong, but here's my view on things (the first part of this is something you'll likely see coming from a mile away... Here it comes...).

Everyone has to go through it at first.
Hell, sometimes you'll get the occasional character that makes a smart remark about the stench your character gives off from being in the sewers so long, or some might even make fun of them for not being able to take down a single orc, I've been through that at least. But the reason I say this is because starting out on this server, while rough, can be alot harder...

I use to play on a server taking place in Cormyr some time ago, forgot what it's called... "Forgotten Realms Cormyr" or something. On that server it would take you months to get to level 9, and level 9 felt like it was a -big- thing on there. Not only that... But you also mentioned that you hate lagging behind while in groups for the sake of seeming useless. You'll find that the majority of players on this server recognize your characters level (despite the few I mentioned above) and aren't going to judge you if you can't tank a platoon of ogres right off the bat. That said, if you ever do give this server a shot again, go on group hunts, don't be intimidated by them just because you cannot contribute to the group as much as some others, this is always going to be the case at first. I hate to be that one guy who advertises an in game group (especially since it is a group owned by one of my characters), but there is an Academy on the server called the White Cloak Academy made specifically to recruit all players under the level of 16, and help train them up to the level of 16 by offering them RP opportunity, taking them out on numerous group adventures, allowing them to participate in DM run quests for the White Cloaks, offering the player a free place to rest at in the city, and best of all your character is not gonna be over shadowed by them, because once they reach level 16 that character leaves the academy to go do their own thing.

Stepping away from that certain mention however, another thing I agree with you on is that you shouldn't have to sit in Arabel Central and have pointless conversation for the sake of waiting on the 300 XP the ticker gives... So don't. Seriously though, if you see a group massing up to go do something like an orc raid, it doesn't matter what level you are, just tag along man.
You may not believe it, but alot of the players who get these group raids started are folks who just want to get to know other characters, and in turn, the player who controls that character... It's a win-win situation. You really won't even need to rely on the Quests planted on this server to get anywhere neither if you follow this strategy.

Let's see, what'd I miss...
Ah, DM run quests can be spotty depending on the time of the year, most DMs have things they must attend to IRL and need to wait until a calmer time of the year before they can put up something. I've seen it get really dry on the server when it comes to DM events, then I've also seen it pull a flip with 3-4 DM events a week, it really depends on the time of the year.

Lastly is the mention of many "pointless" areas on the server, for example... The Semberholme forests with many areas that seem to have no point to them. I realize you said you don't really care for RPing, and you seem to acknowledge you're not the target audience, but these empty areas are a normal, regular thing on RP server only to offer scenery and opportunity for characters to role play on a trip to some where, each place is a special place to one character or another.


I'm not calling blasphemy, I'm not trying to be the "shame on you" kind of fella, and to be honest you hit on some legit points. But if you do come back to the server some day (and I hope you do), give some of what I suggested above a shot. It takes a little to adjust to the server, but it will come fast if you rely on players who truly just want to help. I hope I see you around at some point, I'll be making an attempt to log onto the server more often at this time of the year if you're looking for someone to watch your back on an adventure somewhere.

+2 to the response and post by the OP.

I really like seeing posts like this.  I also commend the OP for coming up with a very constructive post.  Regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees, I like the civility of the points, and the addressing of the points.

Great work guys!

I also agree with OTY.  The server has its ebb and flow in activity and I would say this past month has been a slower than usual month due to vacation, intense IRL stuff, etc. We had either hospitalized folks or those affected by hospitalized folks IRL, vacations, and all sorts of other fun going on in that realm.  

If you ever give the server another shot, I would be happy to direct you to the corners with activity.  ICly or OOCly (I play a notorious social butterfly who knows folks <.<).

Sincerely,
Arya

I have to say as a player who has been on and off this server for years... I agree with most things you've posted and thank you for making them so clear for players like myself who sometimes ramble and can't get the point across.  In fact I'm going to ramble a bit more below on dm quests and my frustration with them not to be whiney or negative but in hopes it could be helpful to more than just me.

The dm events are sporadic and until the last week I've never seen them handled very IC'ly at all, always having to go to a forum (some of us hate forums) to ask to be put on a roster and then at a designated time rounded up like cattle and sent off on quest.  (I don't know about most of you but if I have to schedule a date a week or two in advance and then try to remember to rush home from work to be present, I feel like its work not fun.)  While I understand the ooc'ness is needed to keep the DM's from being mobbed with 20 toons at once and to have no wasted time in gathering folks... and required set up time... there has to be a balance.  Can't some quests start IC, with whoever is there... and just occur naturally.  They don't have to all be over the top save the world quests.  Heck have them deliver some letters or something.  Just have the NPCs interact... and while maybe they are not the bigger quests, give some xp for that?  Not all of us are going to sign up and schedule for a bigger quest and that means we'll go months, heck one time nearly a year without any dm xp.  

I have to say DM e-Dating Service of late has been doing this and I am eternally grateful to see this and perhaps I'm just missing the other DM's doing it as well, so thank you for those who have tried this!!

Lastly - I agree as well that leveling is too time consuming here, not saying everyone should be able to power grind... but with such a small player base we want to be able to do things together and that means someone gets babysat which isn't fun for anyone or... they simply don't interact which means we log off bored and then leave the server further amplifying the issue.  

I fully support the idea of more random, non-forum planned events happening, just as much as I support the idea of having long, in-depth forum planned quests. The variety is always refreshing and does more to make the role play world of CD seem more alive (the random events, I mean). One thing I just can't seem to agree on is that all players should be evened out easier, let me explain.

I don't believe that a characters level represents their reputation on -any- role play server. A level 8 character that is role played really well can be labeled as top tier, and I think the thing that people on this server often mix up is that if they're unable to do the things higher level character can do, that they should feel embarrassed about it for some reason. Then again what I believe isn't always represented, that happens on many servers, but the message I think that needs to be pushed towards any player who welcomes it (especially on their long climb to leveling up their ideal character build) is that their character is a bad ass, whether they be level 5 or 20. A player (who is now a DM, who is someone I won't mention unless he wants me to) once told me something really wise around the first year I spent on CD. "Everyone has more fun when they feel like a bad ass", he told me OOC, and this guy was someone that -really- did an excellent job of making those he role played with all feel fuckin' awesome, and I have always appreciate that he was able to do that for me and others despite many of us being decently low level at the time.

Is it the fault of players with low level characters for losing interest or hope? No, if they just don't feel it, they just don't feel it. Hell, I use a character that's over level 20 and for about 2 months and a half I haven't been feeling it, I'll even go as far as to say I felt pretty out of place at times. My thing is that I believe that players using higher level characters should take the time to show some respect to lower level players who accompany them, making the level climb that much more worthwhile, and when they hit level 16 or up it will feel like it was truly earned. Give a "Wow, nice hit!" or a "Hey, good job!" Every now and then. In a role play aspect, low level characters aren't just characters to send into a fight, many of them play a key role in building up the world this server works to create.

So, here are some thoughts from someone who has spent way too much time here.  I present them in no particular order.

1)  Useless areas.  Yes, we do have a lot of them, and it can make navigating to some places on foot (Velethuil) a colossal pain, especially as most of these areas also have spawns of crag cats or, further east, bears.  There are entire dungeons that have been forgotten over the years because nobody remembers how to get there.  That said, some of these areas used to serve a purpose and several more are simply atmospheric; it's designed to convey the expanse of the forest without having one giant lag-bombing 40x40 area.  Others see a lot of use in quests.  So, many of them do serve their purpose, just not immediately.  Yes, I know they're annoying and make navigation difficult, but they're there for a reason.  How good of a reason that is, is a matter of opinion.  I do think some of them could be removed or merged and others spiced up a bit.

2)  Quests.  Different DMs prefer different questing styles.  A lot of quests are pre-arranged simply because that's the quickest and easiest way for a DM to get a fair-sized diverse group that's all around the same level range.  It's a big downer to run an ad-hoc quest about an orc attack for the people in the Square who are levels 11, 13, 14, and 16 when the other person there is a level 30 epic mage that can kill the whole event in ten seconds, and it's equally difficult to tell that level 30 OOCly that 'You can't go, you're too powerful' when their character should ICly respond.  Or if you have four people in the quest and you take them to a dungeon, only to find they're all warriors and nobody can open the locked doors or chests or disarm the traps.  I've been in the former situation before, and let me tell you, it's no fun - Not only do you miss the quest but people can and will use it against you ICly because there's no valid IC response as to why you didn't come help.

3)  Levels.  Leveling up is actually the fastest it's ever been right now...  which says something about how slow it used to be.  If you stick to a single character or a very small core group, you'll level up fairly quickly just going about your daily stuff.  If you get in a group that's getting DM events run for them often you can shoot up to level 17-20 in 2-3 months.  That said, levels don't mean everything, especially in quests.  Most DMs are flexible and accommodating of lower-level outliers and can keep them engaged and feeling useful.  One of the most epic things my level 30 sorceress ever did occurred when she was level nine, partied with a group of high-levels including an epic melee fighter with Dev Crit.  You can't just run up and click on enemies and expect them to die, though - Lower levels are where you need to be creative to be awesome.  But those moments are infinitely more satisfying than passing a gear or build check.

4)  Lack of information.  I agree with you here.  The old forums had generally more informative postings, but when we transitioned not much of that got copied over.  The lack of mapnotes is also somewhat frustrating when navigating the bigger, same-looking areas, and sometimes you just stumble upon dungeons you wouldn't have even thought to look for.  This is meant to be part of the server's appeal - exploration and discovery - but it tends to be one that falls flat for most people.  They know how to get to a few key areas and that's all they ever really need to know, so why go wandering in the forest for two hours, right?

5)  NPC-driven quests.  I also agree these give way too little XP considering they're all one-shots.  This was done to prevent grinding and speed-leveling, but the flip side is that they're hardly even worth doing when the daily XP fairy will give you more XP than all but one of them (and that one requires a high-level party to finish and is known to be buggy, and is even then only worth 1000 XP).  These could use a bit more of a reason to do them other than for a few hundred extra XP to push someone over a level cap, which is all they do right now.

To be clear about something -- my objection is not that it's extremely hard to hit level 10.  My objection is that it's extremely hard to hit level 10 AND most PCs I see are 16+.  If the level cap was 14 and most PCs were 11-13 I wouldn't mind being level 9.  The actual level is not what matters, it's the difference in levels.

How do I know a group is massing to do an orc raid unless I'm hanging out there for the sake of pointless conversation, though?  Bit of a Catch-22.

I certainly understand that DMs are busy.  But when it's the only way to gain XP to try to even halfway catch up with the AVERAGE PC level then it's frustrating depending on them.

I get what you're saying to some degree, but 3+ areas dedicated to "on the northwest/north/northeast shores of Lake " seems...unusual.  Not saying empty areas for that kind of scenry/RP are a problem, saying there seems to be too many of those empty areas, if that makes sense.  Not the biggest deal in any case.

Jun 13, 2014 9:18:31 GMT -5 Arya Kalarathri said:

If you ever give the server another shot, I would be happy to direct you to the corners with activity.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

Jun 13, 2014 10:54:46 GMT -5 vaesi said:

Lastly - I agree as well that leveling is too time consuming here, not saying everyone should be able to power grind... but with such a small player base we want to be able to do things together and that means someone gets babysat which isn't fun for anyone or... they simply don't interact which means we log off bored and then leave the server further amplifying the issue. 

Indeed.

You say that your problem isn't being level 9, it's being level 9 when everyone else is level 16.

Comparing yourself to others, especially those far away from you in terms of goals, is a very, very easy way to make everything you do unenjoyable. If levels and CR weren't listed anywhere on the server, which some people here support very strongly. My question is if you would feel the same if you didn't have this basis of comparison. You had no clue what level anyone else was without asking.

I used to do this a lot and it made me very bitter about playing here when I saw friends advancing faster than I was. Your primary concern should be if you're having fun or not. Sometimes it's something you can change, sometimes it's something you can't.

Since NWN has dwindled, I can't really make any recommendations for you. I think 3 Towns had the more sort of action/adventure RP(lite?) environment, but I think they shut down a few years ago (at least not listed on NWN server list). If you want more action, Higher Ground PoA has some good stuff going for them with subraces and quasi-classes.

I don't think there are any good action servers left with a sizable population.


The feeling of "forever playing catch up" is a very, very common feeling new players have, and over the last several years, is the reason many of them have told me they have left. Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do about it besides ignore it. It took me over five years to hit level 20 on one character. You can do the same now with active play in less than a year.

But if you don't like social roleplay, you won't enjoy playing here. This is a very social roleplay heavy server. Most roleplay when out adventuring is pretty mute since travel has almost been completely eliminated by only going to teleport friendly dungeons and using the new widgets to return to arabel. Other than the sparing battlecry when out and about, you'll find almost all your time in social RP.

Wouldn't say it's that bad, Red Mage.  Just that most groups don't bother roleplaying in dungeons since they're there for loot.  I was in a dungeon group that roleplayed a bit throughout the whole dungeon as recently as last night.

The 'playing catch-up' is a frustrating thing, I agree, especially if you pair up with more active friends or keep comparing yourself to the alts of long-term players, who will both tend to level faster than you.  This is one reason I could support for removing challenge ratings and level indications, but even so, it's something you can accomplish by just putting it out of your mind.  You're not going to catch up in a few days and, unlike action servers, you'll always be at a disadvantage (either in items, connections, experience, or knowledge of the server) compared to an older character.  So, don't compare yourself to them.  I wasn't measuring myself by the deeds of epics when I was level 10 either, I just accepted that if I stuck it out I'd eventually be one of those guys too.

I do agree that the leveling system could use a few tweaks, but it's hard for us to come up with a system that evens out the leveling curve while also making sure we don't get 'overnight epics' and rampant powergrinding.

Balkoth:
"To be clear about something -- my objection is not that it's extremely hard to hit level 10.  My objection is that it's extremely hard to hit level 10 AND most PCs I see are 16+.  If the level cap was 14 and most PCs were 11-13 I wouldn't mind being level 9.  The actual level is not what matters, it's the difference in levels."

Well first off, my example there was talking about a completely different server (and my point wasn't that it's hard to level up), but I catch your meaning. Thing is we'd risk sacrificing long term level progression just for the sake of keeping all players close in level range, and considering how much faster one can level up on this server than other servers I've seen, it becomes a question of what are we sacrificing in order to make something else work, would it truly be worth it, how many other players would be ticked off if these changes were made?


Balkoth:
"How do I know a group is massing to do an orc raid unless I'm hanging out there for the sake of pointless conversation, though?  Bit of a Catch-22."

Central, while being the main get-together place on the server, isn't the only place you can go to get with a group raid. There are some factions on the server that do nothing but raids, almost daily, -and- have a role play reason for doing so. I know my character faction use to for awhile. The Dwarven faction makes it a regular thing, meet and drink, get drunk, run out and go kill things, drink, kill more things, occasionally set fire to property. Most raids that I'm in these days are through faction, especially since as of recently I have been avoiding Central more often.


Balkoth:
"I certainly understand that DMs are busy.  But when it's the only way to gain XP to try to even halfway catch up with the AVERAGE PC level then it's frustrating depending on them."

Well the problem here is (what others here have said already) that you keep comparing your character to others characters, don't. Like I said before, most other players aren't judging you for having a lower level character because everyone has been there. This is usually something you can find in most online RPGs or MMOs, there are the players who just joined in and are getting started, and there are the higher level players who have been at it for awhile now, there's not much that can be done about that honestly without sacrificing other aspects of the server...


Balkoth:
"I get what you're saying to some degree, but 3+ areas dedicated to "on the northwest/north/northeast shores of Lake <blank>" seems...unusual.  Not saying empty areas for that kind of scenry/RP are a problem, saying there seems to be too many of those empty areas, if that makes sense.  Not the biggest deal in any case."

I can see how that would be an issue to some people, sure.

Thing is... With all of the points you made above, I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, nor am I trying to tell you not to have your current opinion of how the server works. You have a play style that you prefer that falls more into the category of a more action based server (from what I have read at least), which is not at all a bad thing. However on a RP server set up like this one it's really going to take alot of patience, and you'll drive yourself nuts if you keep comparing levels. Fill the time with role playing, that's the key. From my experience leveling my character up it went so much faster when I took the time to role play with other characters, the time in between was a blast and before I knew it I was at level 16.

If you're not someone who is into the role playing thing, or if you really just can't bring yourself to come back to the server, that's fine. It just means it's not your cup of tea.

I wasn't really going to weigh in on this, and I think I'm still going to avoid that, save to say that you are hardly alone. My fiance and I have been here about two months, and each have at least three or four characters a piece (I have six or seven, now - I get what Dagesh refers to as a hardcore case of "PC-itis," but I play them all with reasonable regularity) and their levels range from 4 to 13 - all within a reasonable distance of your character. So does Atomic Twinkie/Bushy Fro. I'm around at weird times - sometimes late at night, sometimes early in the morning, sometimes in the middle of the day, but I tend to be around a lot (just been sick the past week or two, so I've been around a little less than normal). If you stick around, no matter your opinion of square RP (and while I don't mind it, I get tired of it quick and find a way to get a dungeon-run going), you rarely have to do it for very long before you'll have a group who's willing to run with you, and that won't make you feel entirely useless. If you're willing to give this server another shot, just drop me a line in game or here, and I'm more than willing to run with you.

Just a few things to add here:

One, there's always tweaks and adjustments that can (and will) be made.  Things like notifying players about the stores (though rather than add a sign that I figure many newcomers won't bother to read, I'll put in a catch that tells you what Tier of store you're looking at when you open it, for instance).

As far as level progression goes, a few thoughts.

-The level bands for dungeon groups are very large for a reason.  You can gain full xp in a group with people up to 12 levels higher, so as a level 9, that means anyone level 21 and under.
-By design intent, there's not a lot of content designed for solo play, i.e., you're not meant to solo your way to the top.  The goal of the server isn't to be high level, it's to have an interesting and fun story, which by its nature is going to involve other players and DMs.  We don't try and actively discourage solo play, but it's not the intent.
-If you're worried about being too low-level, and not being able to contribute... well, that's mostly on you, in the end.  Most groups I've seen were more than willing to take anyone along regardless of level, so long as they weren't going to have to be constantly resurrecting the person.  Most of the time I see someone passed over for a group, it's for purely IC reasons, or the dungeon in question is a ridiculously hard epic-level one (which is a rarity).  Sit in the back, use missile weapons, use healing kits on people - you may not do a lot, but you're doing something, and you can usually roleplay a bit (I've yet to see anyone complain about others RPing during a dungeon run).

On areas and size, yes, it's large.  We wanted to cover a significant range of territory, and do a believable job of it.  We didn't go quite as crazy as servers like ALFA used to (where they aimed for a complete 1:1 representation, or thereabouts), but we felt we had a good approximation, and with a combination of caravans and travel magic, it's usually not too bad.

Thanks for the feedback though - I do hope you change your mind, though as you said, the server is very RP/story focused, ultimately, and if that's not your interest, then you may well be better off playing something else.

One minor correction - there's no hard and fast limit on the level range.  Instead it's dependent on the size and composition of the party, and the average level of the group.

I would absolutely feel the same way.  I might not be able to tell that Bob is exactly 7 levels higher than me but I can absolutely tell he's substantially more powerful than I am due to how hard he hits, how little he GETS hit, his more powerful/available potions, and his higher health pool.  I might not be able to say his exact level advantage but I could easily guess he's 5-10 levels higher.

Which then brings up a question -- once I realize that Bob is massively more powerful than I am due to OOC game mechanics, does that mean I need to RP like Bob is stronger?  If I don't, then the game itself exposes the lie.  If I do, then levels and CR (OOC mechanics) are affecting things.

Three Towns still exists and I tried it a few months ago.  Higher Ground devolves into immunities (mostly elemental) at high levels which is not enjoyable for me.  It was basically "Get X and Y immunity for Z area and win easily, otherwise you'll be utterly wiped out."  For reference, here is a list of servers I can think of off-hand that I have tried and ultimately left for various reasons (might be forgetting a few):

Amia
Argentum Regio
The Awakening
Glorwing
Higher Ground
Isle of Thain
Kharindale
Legion of Darkstar
Three Towns
World of Aenea
World of Caenyr
World of Greyhawk
World Serpent Inn


While I obviously cannot speak for others, I would like to emphasize that it's not even so much "forever playing catch up" as "forever playing catch up AND being half a dozen or more levels behind everyone."  If coming in at this point meant I would never catch up to the highest level characters and that I would always remain a few levels behind, I could live with that -- because I can still contribute well in groups even if I'm the weakest in the group.  But being SO far behind the others for SO long is my concern.


Interesting.  I'm not even sure what a "teleport friendly dungeon" is.  I was also hoping there would be DM plot events that would be RP-focused without being "So, how was your day?"  Political drama, external threats, etc.


If you might recall, I gave numbers earlier that showed how it would take 40 days of playing 4 hours a day just to hit level *13.*  If I played 10 hours a week on the server it would take *over 5 months* to hit level 13.  And level 13 is still well below the average.  My concern isn't about catching up in a few days -- if we assume that level 16 is "caught up" in general (below average still but high enough to be able to hold your own) then at 10 hours a week it would take 33000/(75 * 10) = 44 weeks.  That's just for level 16.

This isn't counting DM events, of course, so presumably would be a bit faster but you still get the general idea.  It's not even a matter of a few days or even a few months, it's potentially nearly an entire year.

If you're happy with the set-up by all means keep it but, as Red Mage said, I think you're losing a *lot* of players that way.


I can safely say this is the slowest server for leveling up that I have seen by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two (keeping in mind the average level is like 16-20 and the cap is 30, bit different than a server with a level cap of 7 or something).  Out of curiosity, which servers are you thinking of?


I suppose this would be a bad time to ask something along the lines of "what in the world is a faction?"  Because to me that sounds like Zhentarim (sp?) versus Cormyr versus Drow versus whatever but I have a hunch that's not what you mean.

Two big differences there, though:

1, the lower level players don't interact with the higher level ones 99% of the time, at least not in terms of combat.  They don't do dungeons or quests together.  The lower levels effectively have their own "sphere" of interaction which is people +-3 levels or whatever with plenty of people in that range to do stuff with.  That's quite different from here where it's being suggested a level 9 could be in a group with a level 21+ character.

2, the lower levels tend to "catch up" massively, massively faster than here.

As you might guess, it's both of these existing at the same time which I find problematic.  If I had plenty of stuff to do with lots of PCs my level I'd mind a lot less that it would take me a year just to be average on the server.  But instead I mostly find people 6+ levels higher, which is a rather big deal when you're only level 9.

Out of curiosity, do you happen to recall how many days it took you to go from 10 to 16?  And how many hours per day you averaged?  I suppose I'm having a hard time believing that "before I knew it" equates to 10+ months but maybe we have very different timescales.

FWIW my first server was World of Caenyr, which is an RP server, and the server I played on the longest before leaving (which was part of a mass exodus where half the server left due to drama).


I'll definitely keep that in mind.  Won't possibly happen for another week or two, though, too busy with other things right now (RL, guild I lead in an MMO going through a major transition, NWN building project).

Out of curiosity, do you view being escorted through a dungeon by a massively more powerful character actual group play?  Feels to me like solo play on part of the higher level -- at least in terms of combat mechanics, which is what we are discussing at this exact moment.
How do you see this working out for someone who's playing a frontline melee character?  An archer missing extra shots and/or being more fragile isn't immersion breaking.  A mage not being as good at spellcasting is believable.  But a traditionally sword and shield warrior hiding in the back with missile weapons and using healing kits with -1 or 0 Wisdom modifier and 0 Heal skill seems...rather odd, no?


I'm actually *very* story focused, massive lore nerd for games ranging from Mass Effect to Warcraft to Lords of Magic to Half Life and beyond.  Perhaps it would be more accurate to say care less about my own character's background and more about what's actually going on in the world.

-By nature of being in a group, you're interacting, you're being social.  Are all groups as chatty as others?  No, but it's a start.  So yes, I would much rather people have to work together, even if they're not talking at all - and many people do use those excursions as an excuse to interact.

-Second, even if you're just firing off mostly meaningless arrows, darts, slingstones, etc, you're still participating to some degree.  The point isn't mechanics, or you feeling good about yourself.  Roleplay it as you like, but the point is you're out there interacting with people.

-CD isn't about me, the Admin, telling a big story about what happens to Cormyr.  CD is about the stories of all the characters.  What's happening in Cormyr is merely the stage and the backdrop for that.

"I can safely say this is the slowest server for leveling up that I have seen by at least an order of magnitude, possibly two (keeping in mind the average level is like 16-20 and the cap is 30, bit different than a server with a level cap of 7 or something). Out of curiosity, which servers are you thinking of?"

Forgotten Realms Cormyr, it would take me forever and an age to level up, that was awhile back when I use to play that though.





"I suppose this would be a bad time to ask something along the lines of "what in the world is a faction?"  Because to me that sounds like Zhentarim (sp?) versus Cormyr versus Drow versus whatever but I have a hunch that's not what you mean."

I'm thinking more along the lines of Purple Dragons, Dwarven Clans, White Cloaks, ect. ect.





"Two big differences there, though:

1, the lower level players don't interact with the higher level ones 99% of the time, at least not in terms of combat. They don't do dungeons or quests together. The lower levels effectively have their own "sphere" of interaction which is people +-3 levels or whatever with plenty of people in that range to do stuff with. That's quite different from here where it's being suggested a level 9 could be in a group with a level 21+ character.

2, the lower levels tend to "catch up" massively, massively faster than here.

As you might guess, it's both of these existing at the same time which I find problematic. If I had plenty of stuff to do with lots of PCs my level I'd mind a lot less that it would take me a year just to be average on the server. But instead I mostly find people 6+ levels higher, which is a rather big deal when you're only level 9. "

1. Very true

2. Fortunately the focus of this server is, like FW said, RPing. I know I seem to be repeating myself, but on an RP server people should focus less on the level of other characters around them, and more on what that character has to offer story wise. Here you can get away with level 9 characters working with level 16 characters because the level 16 characters and up aren't judging the lower levels tagging along, in fact they're -usually- wanting lower level characters to tag along on this server specifically so that they can help that lower level character catch up with others (at least that was the experience I gained from playing here). This is opposed to most other MMOs out there where if a character with weaker gear than the rest of the party shows up, he or she gets booted from the group so that the party mentioned has a better chance of successfully completing a dungeon for da epic lewtz!

That's rarely the case here, and more often than not I have seen lower level characters get offered the bulk of the loot (or at least what is most useful to them at the time) after they participated in a raid somewhere. So I guess you could say the answer to 2. is that it's not necessary to section off levels into groups because there's no real penalty for doing so, and no one as gonna get offended if someone of a lower level tags along.





"Out of curiosity, do you happen to recall how many days it took you to go from 10 to 16? And how many hours per day you averaged? I suppose I'm having a hard time believing that "before I knew it" equates to 10+ months but maybe we have very different timescales."

It took me a long time, no mistake about it, but what I mean when I say "before I knew it" is "time flew by fast because I was having fun"... That sort of thing.



 

"FWIW my first server was World of Caenyr, which is an RP server, and the server I played on the longest before leaving (which was part of a mass exodus where half the server left due to drama)."

Then I repeat what I said in my first post, if you ever feel like coming back to this server I'd love to include you along on dungeon runs and what not. Not trying to sound corny or anything, but helping out newer or lower level characters is something I really have fun doing, it's not just an in-character thing for me, as a player I find it rewarding to watch other characters go from 10 to 16.

I had friends that played there years ago and was told that it usually took 3-5 months to hit level 20... so they decided to hit level 20 in 1 month. Granted, I have no clue how much time was spent daily on the absurd amounts of grinding, but eh. Not sure if anything has changed since then in regards to the leveling system.

Thing about FRC is that there was no experience cap daily, and as long as you kept killin', you'd be levelin'.

The thing that balanced that out, at least for me, was that at the time that I played on the server there were rules. Characters could not party up with other characters if they weren't within a few levels of each other, you can't fight through an area on the server more than once a day, and at the time I noticed that alot of the areas available from low to mid level characters were few and rough as hell. On the climb leveling up, I felt like I was running out of options alot, maybe that's why it felt so long to me.

My guess is that they ignored the "once a day" rule. From the way it was described to me, I think they just camped the same area waiting for respawns. If a DM wasn't watching, how would anyone ever know? And I'm familiar with the 4-level rule. I used to play on an action server that did that.

It's also my understanding that death led to losing a level there... so it was actually fairly significant.

/stopsderailing

Well, yes, it does take a while to get to level 16.  Anywhere from 4-8 months depending on whether you play alts or get a lot of DM love. 

But all those level 16 characters you see on the server took that long to develop.   Some characters, who may not even be epic level, have been played for years.  From a brutally honest standpoint, how would -you- feel if you played a character for that long, got to this 'server midpoint' and then saw new players joining and getting 'caught up' in two weeks?

But aside from that, the way the server is structured is to facilitate Individual stories, as FW said.  How can my rogue overcome his time spent in a Zhent prison to become an accepted member of the society?  And if I succeed, what will I do with that acceptance, help others or just rob them blind?  In order to try to tell stories like that the leveling path is pretty deliberate

- You get up to level 10 real fast and accumulate some money, as well as get familiar with a lot of the basics of the server if you are a new player. 
- Levels 11-15 can and do interact with any other character on the server.  Are they as strong in dungeons as some others?  No, but they can usually hold their own and contribute.    But the main point is this is a time of character development.  What goals does she pursue?  What friends and allies does she gather?  What enemies does she make?  To most of the players around here, these questions and how they roll out for a PC are much more important, and interesting, than how to get that +1 BAB out of my build so I can kill the Lich by level 15. 
- Levels 16-20 - you can do most if not all of the dungeons in the module, and are an 'established' character for the most part.  You can play a part in civic life, found a guild or lead a faction, build a house - and progress towards your main character goals.
- Epic levels - There is some epic level content, with more under development.  I've never played an epic, so I am not sure how satisfying it is for the average player.  But these tend to be the PCs that ascend to positions of local power, respect, and influence. 

I've taken three characters up to level 15, and each time I've had a lot of interaction with higher level characters - making friends, enemies, lovers, trading partners...Yes, there have been a few times where I felt a little useless in a dungeon that my character's skills didn't really fit very well, as well as being low level.  But you can't be a star all the time, and I can usually learn some tactics and the like by watching. 

Thanks very much for all the observations and good discussion sparked.  Whatever we can do to make things clearer to people starting here is a good thing!  Hope you decide to give us a try again sometime.

Epic Levels are nothing special, coming from someone who complained forever that his character wasn't epic when the only thing holding me back was not playing the character enough. Sure, at some point reaching 21 might feel "great" or something, but really it's no different than being pre-epic in that your character has the same relationships, interactions, etc. they had before. It's really just a new tier of gear for people who care about that stuff, which results in spamming Frost Giants/Gnolls like no tomorrow since the other epic dungeons are either unbalanced or broken. Partly because there's not that high of a demand for epic content, and partly because Vincent would have to be more insane than he already is to rebalance and fix all the dungeons (probably 90% of the pre-epic dungeons need rebalancing as well, in regards to both mobs and loot).

My biggest complaint is how "fake" everything feels once you reach epic because, at least for me, my suspension of disbelief has been completely shot. There's been too many plots where the outcome is just "lolgoodguyswin." Yes, it's fun to "win" and this is fine. But sometimes there's fun in the struggle and the negative as much as the positive. Sometimes it needs to be, "We won...but at a great cost beyond some random NPCs we'll forget in a year." PCs sign up for quests knowing the risks and that it may cost them their lives or worse. If someone doesn't like these plots, they can avoid them. Because of decisions characters have made, they've permanently lost stat points, saved Suzail at the cost or their life, or even been reborn as half-celestials as a surprise to the player. Very rarely, does anything seem that serious to me anymore and the issue lies fundamentally with FR in that if there's a big enough problem, some super-epic character will fix it. In PnP, you can just remove NPCs like Elminster and Drizz't from the question, but those characters are PCs here. It's very hard to do "the universe is imploding" plots because it would result in everyone, save the most epic of the epic, dying or they'd eventually become stale, too. We're specifically asked, for the sake of DM sanity, to take threats like these seriously so it doesn't become a complete farce. In some situations, this is still possible for me. But when the most awesome, crazy thing your character has ever done was at level 11, there's not much farther to go from there. Eventually, threats do seem like a joke compared to what you've dealt with before. If a character can pull so much from the Weave at once that Mystra has to personally ask them to stop, yes, they're going to laugh in the face of danger.

Yes, everyone should be entitled to play however they wish to play, but it becomes very, very difficult to plan around a world where a group of a few people can stop most of the things you can throw at them without a blink, hence the insane power creep in later dungeons and pretty pets Vincent has made for us to play with (remember, we're all just toys to him while he laughs maniacally from his Evil Lair). It's why many of the epics have to take a back seat. It's not the worst thing in the world, they've earned it. They've done their hero-ing. But short of a second Godswar or events that could literally tear the world apart and kill most other PCs in the process, there's not much that threatens them. So instead, we have to sit back and pretend the things that do happen are supposed to matter in the grand scheme of things. If this were a server where everyone could reach level 40 in a week, that's a different matter. But it's not.

This has mostly been re-hashings of talks we've had about epics in the past.

/rant

He means factions as in player guilds like the White Cloaks.

Teleport friendly dungeon means most dungeons which are ran are nearby somewhere you can teleport. Since most characters UMD dump, spot wiz/ sorc, or have a pocket mage, teleporting is extremely common. When you can use the mass teleport spell/scroll, you just type Teleport: Stoneland Canyon for instance, and you and your party will be teleporting right by the entrance to Ogre Lord's.

I can't remember the last time I actually had to backtrack through a dungeon after completing it. It's always been teleport, log back into main server, or now use the given widget to bring yourself to Arabel. Most of the RP in dungeons seems to be "they usually do ____, be careful", creative battlecries, brief strategies before entering the dungeon or before boss fights, but it's rarely about placeables within dungeons, creating ideas about what's actually in the dungeon aesthetically instead of focusing on the "boss" character.

"These wall drawings seem strange and out of place for an Orc cave. I wonder if there's any significance to them." *makes quest request*

It's mostly, *walks passed drawings* "Careful, there's usually a trap here".

But more often, *group runs through trap, because they know it won't kill, runs into next spawn, and the next, and the next, and the next* "Phew" *pants*. "Shit loot." *Mass teleport*

If I may chime in as a newbie to the server:

I think the problem is the upside-down pyramid problem (similar which the pension systems facing nowadays in the first world). In the 3ed DMG book there is a city generator which builds up a normal pyramid: for each class you roll out the highest lvl NPC, than you get two NPCs on half that lvl, four others once more half of that, etc. This results in what we normally expect from a quasi-reality: many underdogs, less experts and a few masters in each given trade/class.

However on the server we have a lot of 10+, even 16+ lvl PCs, but the low-and mid-range (1-10 lvl) is mostly missing. Those are mainly filled with NPCs, and to interact with an NPC on a regular level needs huge DM resources in time and energy which we can't reasonably expect from the DMs. This also makes it difficult for new characters to kinda connect to other PCs. From pure game mechanics/power/lvl point of view it is hard to join up in a balanced party, as described earlier. From social/cultural/RP point of view the high levels already established themselves as leaders, moved onto the higher social circles and it is hard to ICly beliveably integrate a new character into these directly. Why would an arch-mage took interest in a beginner 3rd lvl wizard? Of course the typical master-apprentice relationship is good, but could get cliche fast, too. As well as being relatives to each other, as explanation.

An other problem is when the majority of characters are high/epic level, that DMs need to come up with "doom of the entire world" threats more often than it could be reasonably happen. This was also mentioned earlier, it breaks immersion, etc.

To solve this problem on a purely theoretical level (I know it is not realistic to expect from the players, this is just thinking loudly) the level cap should be re-thought. The expectation to get a high-level character approved to pass a level cap could be the creation and active usage of some lower-level characters. For example in order to pass onto epic level with one char the player should have one other character in the 10-20 lvl range, and two between new and 10th level. And these characters should be used and logged on regulary. Again, I know it is not a realistic expectation, but maybe gets the creative juices flowing, so to speak, to solve this problem.

For those who did not play on Escape from Underdark here is how they tackled this issue: when a PC died and respawned, he lost 1/3rd of his total XP. Getting raised ment the loss of 1/6th XP, resurrected 1/9th XP. On that server a lvl 7 or 8 PC was considered powerful, rare and top tier, as dying usually meant loosing 2 levels and the combat areas available over the 4th level were hard. (So raise dead and resurrection was quite rare anyway.) This kept the PC base close to each other in terms of lvl, as there were beginner dungeons and some fed-ex quests to bring you up to lvl 4, but afterwards the PCs fluctuated between being 5-8th lvl. Of course the backside of it was that many deaths were the direct result of lags which are not fair to the players and DMs were not watching over each mission area all the time to remedy these situations. Again, this might not have relevance for us, just an eye-opener.

Anyway, these are my 0.2 cents only, consider them musing loudly.

*scurries back to her newbie hole*

I've had similar qualms, even just taking levels out of the equation. In fact, I've been more discouraged when I hit higher levels and feel my characters aren't going anywhere. By 16, I've felt I've more or less journeyed through the prime of my character's story, which is to say the extent of where self-driven motivated storylines still work. Past that level, it just feels reality is shattered and the social roleplay that makes up the meat of the character's experiences is hollow and unfitting to a character of that power.



I can't speak from any server epic experience, but I can mirror sentinments from MegaSwampertSoHype and mysticwarden above. I've found the "established" characters become the "go to" for the areas of expertise they cover. Not saying that none of it is warranted or earned, but it gives the two-fold problem of making them both a deus ex machina and a creativity block.



If Character X governs this physical area or area of expertise (perhaps due to event Y from a plot 3 years ago), they automatically get claim on events for anything happening there for IC reasons. That's expected and only fair to the player of Character X. But when their field of specialty is someone new Character Y pursues, they end up playing permanent second fiddle for a lengthy time, if not the lifespans of the two characters. There's little IC reason to ever approach Character Y for a solution to a problem in that field when Character X could flex their mighty epic skills and handle it much easier.



It's like joining an ongoing campaign game and you pull out your freshly minted wizard with hopeful ambitions and then Ed Greenwood sits next to you and pulls out a character sheet for Elminster. You can roleplay the hell out of your wizard and make him interesting in all sorts of ways, but whenever the shit hits the fan, everyone turns to Elminster to save the day. You're forced into a supporting role whenever both characters are around.



It sometimes feels like there are limited roles to fill and a lot of them are just plain occupied at times.



Edit: I also feel like the majority of DM events I've taken part of lacked a core concept of shared player spotlight. It's alright for a single PC to take charge, but sometimes they go full tilt and the rest of the party becomes window dressing. Again, this is fine for quests that are for personal character development, but pick-ups or even planned events sometimes only really circle around a small handful of the group and the others are simply around for the ride. This doesn't mean pointing fingers at DMs, as managing the spotlight and sharing time is something players should be cognizant of when grouping as well.

Tessa really hit the core of it, at least from my perspective. I'll put it into my own terms a bit.  This may turn into a 'Being epic sucks' post halfway through and I apologize for that.

My main is level 30. One of two active max-level characters on the server. And Tessa is firmly correct when she says that the best parts of that 30 levels occurred from about levels 9 to 19. Past that, my character had already 'seen it all' so to speak, and most of the quests I remember best and enjoyed most happened before she reached level 20.  She was right in the sweet spot where she was effective and powerful without being overwhelming.  She was also often in groups about her own level range, so everybody had something to contribute.  Even the lower levels, who might not have been on the front lines but could indeed find things to do by protecting the rear, drawing aggro off the spellcasters, or otherwise doing their thing without drawing the attention of the big scary thing of the week.  Some of my best achievements in quests were done at levels 9-12 and weren't done by combat but by guile and cunning.  And I miss those days a little.  Right now my character's super-high level actually restricts her even more than being low level would - I have to bow out of quests or events I should realistically be interested in because my character is too powerful.

At level 30 she's -the- go-to problem solver when it comes to magical affairs because as an epic mage there's little she can't immediately stomp into the ground, which makes her impossible to use well in combat quests - Either the rest of the group gets massacred so she can have a challenge or she can steamroll anything thrown at her. I often find myself deliberately excluding myself from plots because of this. It's also easy for higher levels, especially epics, to overshadow everyone else, even fellow epics, without even trying if they decide to truly act like the quasi-deific badasses they've become. Consider the Waymoot siege, where Aelie (my epic sorceress) and Aesa (an epic fighter) were asked to 'provide a distraction' by a group of 6-7 adventurers, several of them epic themselves, looking to infiltrate a temple where the orcs were sacrificing townsfolk.  They proceeded to do this by attacking the entire orcish army themselves.  Not only did they not die, but they caused so much mayhem that the Purple Dragons exploited it to launch their own attack and finally smash the orcish force, breaking the siege and routing them.  I didn't realize it until much later, but once it hit that point, in the grand scheme of things, nothing the rest of the party did mattered.  They accomplished their objectives, but that's not the part people remember.  People remember the besieging orcs getting blindsided by the vicious heavily-warded greatsword-swinging maniac who never dies and her invisible Hell-bombing dragon-summoning finger-lasering friend.  And this is a problem a lot of new players risk encountering since, as the lower-levels, they're often not the ones that can do the big flashy bits.

The flip side of this is that because she is so powerful she doesn't really make friends among the newer players or characters well.  If I go adventuring with them to a dungeon their level it's not unusual for them to get no XP at all because of the level banding, which kills that idea faster than a Hellball on a sewer rat, and I'm not going to ruin a quest or DM event by showing up while knowing I'm twice everyone else's level.  And it's remarkably hard to make friends solely through generic social RP.  You gotta get out and do stuff with them!  Except I kinda can't.  Of course my habit of zoning out when there's nothng going on doesn't help either, but...

Tessa's also right in that certain areas are the 'domains' of various older characters.  Magical stuff inevitably hits Aelie, Logarti, or Elzevir.  Anything in the King's Forest involves Piyale.  Thayan business goes through Marziima.  The Purple Dragons are -still- heavily associated with Victoria and Zander.  Want to be a mage?  Join the Violet Flame, domain of Xanetia, Requiem, and sometimes Aelie.  Are you an elfy elf?  Off to Velethuil where you'll meet Anivaro, or hang around with the Ravenshadows for a less traditional elfy experience.  Want to be a druid?  Let me introduce you to Archdruid Iyanna.  Want to establish a mercenary group?  Aesa's got one going already.  This becomes problematic for new players who want to 'do their own thing' only to find someone's already done that and there's a 'No Vacancy' sign over that particular door, and it can become a problem for everybody when the people associated with a faction, activity, or field lose interest or disappear from the game for a while.  If they come back they're going to try to get their old spot back (the PDs and the Violet Flame especially suffered from this) which leads to political infighting and a command crisis because nobody's quite sure who's in charge and it generally winds up leaving both the new up and coming leader and the old guard leader burned out on the whole issue, leaving them right back where they started.

As for DM quests, there's definitely been situations where a quest is very obviously centered around a PC or a group of PCs and anyone else who signs on is just that, an extra in a movie starring someone else.  I'm not talking about quest requests, which are obviously going to lean towards the requester, nor am I talking about situations where a certain PC or group of PCs 'take over' a quest by ICly asserting their leadership and authority.  I'm talking quests that, from outset to conclusion, have their spotlight focused entirely on one person or group and nothing can shake it for more than a few seconds at a time.  These can be very, very frustrating for new players to encounter because it makes them feel like they're not important or that their actions don't really matter.  Fortunately, these quests are in a minority at the moment, but there have been times when they were the majority of quests being run.  This is more something the admins need to keep an eye on than something the players can do anything about, but it's still an issue.

I've run into similar problems.  The way that I handle it, in part, is to not constantly have Eve projecting herself as an ultra superhero.  In some ways that's easier because it fits her character - she's more inclined to be quiet and low-key about what she's capable of, but some of that is just me OOCly adjusting and adapting.  She tends to focus on doing things that she's not good at, in order to make sure she's not standing out too greatly.

That's only one way though - another is to just create another character.  None of these are going to necessarily work for everyone though (I've tried the latter, and I have trouble getting into those PCs).



Honestly, I'd suggest trying to add a little dramatic pacing.  What I mean by this is... don't jump straight to 11.  Even in the FR novels, Elminster doesn't just start busting out hellballs when Zhent Agents start nosing around.  It's much the same way that in any TV show/superhero comic/etc, any hero with a super unbeatable move isn't going around tossing that against every mook that comes along.  What's the IC rationale for this?  Well, basically it's to play like something truly horrible and nasty could be lurking in wait for you to use up your serious firepower.  Elminster wasn't going to waste all his best spells, not when Manshoon or the Shadovar might be waiting for a chance to catch him with his best powers spent.

It also means everyone else has a chance to solve the lesser problems - which is another Elminster-y type thing.



No one has a monopoly on any of this.  We've never made people wait for old players that are semi-active, or completely inactive.  Some of the ones you've named haven't been on in several months or longer.  The Admins and Staff are not stopping you from taking charge of those factions/themes/areas.  Yes, if someone's still around, we'll expect them to step up and engage with you, and let you get involved, but if they don't, the rules clearly state you're free to do it your own way.  Nobody gets to sit on a permanent veto over who can do a certain type of roleplay.



If they suddenly come back and complain, well, tough sh*t.  If people disappear, they don't get to magically have "dibs" on all their old positions and plots.  We try to be accomodating, as best we can, but that's the way it is.  And if they don't like that, I will quite happily explain it to them in as blunt terms as necessary to get the point across.

If you're worried that someone will come back and try to reclaim leadership of an inactive faction, feel free to ask me, and I'll back you up.



It certainly is/can be.  We want everyone to have a chance to take a turn in the spotlight.  We don't want to say "no personal quests/storylines", because these are very important to people, and to being able to effectively play their character's storyline.  We do want others to be able to help take part, though (albeit not as complete extras, ideally), and we also don't want it to be the sort of thing where everything revolves around characters A, B, or C, and nobody else.  I consciously try to not take too active a role with Eve, partly because I want to push others towards the spotlight.

Of course.  Everyone was new here at one point or another, and new members are part of the community just as much as any of us that have been around for years.



That's certainly true to a point, though what I find most interesting/challenging are the plots that you simply can't "epic" your way through.  There's a lot of problems in the world that can't simply be solved by throwing money/magic/firepower at it.  Some of this is just a storytelling challenge though.



There are a number of things I might try (or want to try differently) if we started over, but given where we are in the lifecycle of NWN and such I don't think it's really feasible for us to radically alter things.  I also can't force people to do things - I can encourage, but I can't force.  I do hope that a lot of new characters will start up once we have the new classes from the hak update (which is coming when Vincent's schedule allows).

Of course, people can always do what I did, and invent a reason that their epic character winds up losing multiple levels... but that's another story.

Just some musings on the epic level characters: I think their main function is to keep the enemy epic PCs/NPCs/monsters at bay (sometimes by their mere presence, sometimes more actively). And they inevitably will get powerful enemies during their rise to epic level and beyond. Characters of such power keep a close eye on each other all the time, looking for weakness. They balance each other out and they HAVE TO balance each other out, otherwise the other side uses the opportunity and strikes. It is similar on many aspects to the Cold War and the arm's race the than two superpower drove each other into. Or two grappler of equal skill and strenght, locked into a mutual lock. If anyone yields just for a moment...

That is the reason why epic level characters shouldn't jump into a battle the way trylobyte described happened. If I were an epic-level enemy of that two characters I would launch an attack on them just as they finished their job and they are weakened, hurt, used up spells, magic items, abilities, etc. Of course the epic level characters are aware of this, therefore they delegate these missions to other (lower level) characters, creating lot of adventuring opportunities for those minions/lackeys/apprentices/minor heroes. Epic level characters take direct action only when an enemy epic level character takes direct action. Even than, their main function on the battlefield is to counter their epic opponent while their less-powerful allies scurry along, combatting each other, trying to accomplish their missions. Typical movie cliche: "Leave him to me to handle, you go forward to rescue the girl...". But it works.

The situation becomes even more complicated (and funny) when it is not a two-poled situation, like "we goods vs. them evils", but there are 3, 4, 5 or even more different factions around with different agendas, goals, potentials for allying and betraying, etc. When an epic level character (or characters) have to watch multiple potential angles of attack against them they should be even more careful about taking direct action and exposing themselves. Their lives become even more of one of constant vigil, gathering information, building up power, and saving their strenght, keeping themselves ready all the time. If their enemy shows a weakness, but they do not have the strenght to muster to use the opportunity than it can go and next time it could be opposite way. They become more of tacticians and chessmasters, moving and directing their pawns and allies and only taking active role when absolute neccessary. Based on the background descriped for Forgotten Realms this is the exact situation we are having there.

Independent, non-allied epic characters can't escape this game, either. The other factions will try to recruit them to bolster their power, or eliminate them so they don't bolster their enemies' power. Every powerful character become the victim of his own power sooner or later, without exception.

I think if these aspects would be introduced to the server the players of epic level characters could feel themselves more useful. Admittedly this means more forum RP, with some parts taking place in-engine, like sending the lower lvl chars to missions, than later debriefing, handling an important negotiation with a potential epic level ally, etc. But nevertheless active adventuring is much less for epic level characters as their involvement becomes more social, working from the backgrounds. I do not think anything could be done against this.

To counter this somewhat, and keep it fun to play the epics they could have their special epic level events when they directly can foil some actions and machinations of the other epic level NPCs out there and their direct contributions are needed. These would not be the "world's end of the week" type of adventures, as it was written earlier that would be stupid. Also, countering the actions of an epic enemy doesn't exclusively mean to kill him. These opponents are smart and they know when to cut their losses and run to lick their wounds or to write down their just foiled plot as unseccessful investment. Age is usually not a problem for an epic lvl character, he can wait. This helps to avoid an other potentially silly situation, namely the "never-heard-before-new-but-very-epic-and-dangerous-enemy-of-the-week". A recurring, old enemy with a known background, style, and attitude is much more satisfying experience to play and scheme against.

I am sorry if I stated already well-known things, I can't resist to be a smartass many times. But I played and DMed PnP DnD for 10+ years and I thought maybe these can help to find a solution. If the players of epic lvl characters can have fun that way they might bring in new, smaller level characters and connect them to their epic other. Playing a loyal leutenant of your own epic character can bring the player as close the plots of his epic lvl char as possible with the other one.

I agree with what you wrote, a comment on this one above: if based on my previous post the epic PCs will be more forum RP oriented in their activities that frees up time for the player to bring other, new characters onto the server. Forum RP is easier to do timewise and connection wise. (Can be done from school, workplace, etc.) Being in NWN is usually more tricky and that time than could be mostly spent with the new, lower lvl characters.

I think a lot of the problem with Aelie specifically is her build.  She doesn't have a lot of steps between 'Buff and hide' and 'Release the dragons!' because of her build and her spell selection.  She's very narrowly focused as an acknowledgement of her roleplay, since she's essentially a specialist wizard in sorcerer form.  Most of her offensive spells all sort've accomplish the same purpose, but in different ways and with different roles and purposes, and the ones that remain tend to be unsuitable for use in a party (People hate getting Reverse Gravity'd so much I took it off my hotbar).  People summon their bears and elementals and planar things before battle?  Aelie does too.  Just so happens hers is a dragon that can solo any non-epic dungeon.  That's just how she is, and it's a flaw that I'm well aware of.  I"m just not sure how to fix it without rewriting her character or separating gameplay and story further than I'd like.  And the OOC politics issue with the Violet Flame turned me completely off working with that organization, as much as I'd like to, because as much as FW says it's okay, I'm the one that has to deal with all the hurt feelings and trampled toes of the people who always seem to come back just in time to see me threatening their position.  It ruins my motivation to carry on with it.

This, however, is not the thread for discussing my problem with my character.  

Don't forget that in this topic you're not hearing much from those who aren't currently having any crisis of existence/believability over their epic PCs. It's not that grim.

I stand corrected!

Mine is doing OK. But I've been backseat driving on him for a while now. I guess it's best to add a little at a time than try and go all out and reign it back in later.

The pattern I've noticed tends to be the more active the epic character's player is on that character the less useful they feel, probably because they're spending more time on a character that generally has less to do.  Not really that surprising, I suppose!

I'm thinking this might need to be split into two different threads.  It's gone rather askew of its original purpose.

Wow, this exploded.  More later, but wanted to quickly comment on this.  I'm honestly not sure it's gone rather askew -- I'm thinking it might more be two sides of the same coin.

On one hand, new players (and lower levels in general perhaps) are frustrated because they feel useless and babysat with no way to effectively change that situation in a reasonable time frame.

On the other hand, old players (and higher levels in general) are frustrated because they're too powerful for things short of world ending plots.

Kind of sounds like, for this server at least, the best times are between, say, level 11 and level 17.  Below that you're in really weak gear/low level and cannot contribute effectively and past that you start into demi-god territory.

Too late to change it now, I think, but it does make me wonder what it would be like if the server was capped at 17ish and level gain was rapid until 11ish and then tapered off.  Means you never have to worry about "losing" a character due to them being too high level to participate in things reasonably.

It effectively used to be that way back when I started.  It wasn't hard capped, but epics were so rare that I could have named all four of them (Evelyn, Kori, Kegan, Nevar).  What happened was...  people began complaining about how long it took to level.  Sometimes there were legitimate complaints, but eventually everyone wanted everything to be even since they didn't want to get left behind, one thing led to another, and now it takes 2-3 months to get what used to take a year or more.

And now the thread comes full circle.

Yes, there used to be no more hunting xp at all after level 12 or so, the changeover started at 7, and there was no autoxp to allow earning points when a dm wasn't on.

Yes, and it was extremely cliquey as well. I would spend sometimes three months playing five hours a day and not get a "fairy" then, which was a DM using a wand to give out 100xp ticks at a time. So you'd have to be real creative to try and find motivation to keep playing. Three months then = 0xp-100xp. Three months now = level 14+ easily. At least now, even if you play at odd hours or aren't involved with the main cliques, you can still progress some.

To be fair, that's entirely subjective.  What it meant was that being an outsider/iconoclast tended to not get you very far.  That has good and bad aspects to it.  One person's 'loner' is another person's 'not interested in roleplaying with others'.

The main downside was that people who played primarily at off-peak hours had a lot of trouble getting anything done, and the fact that the system was prone to suspicion of favoritism.  It's hard if not impossible for us to show/prove that a given player definitively deserved attention/xp/etc more than another given player.

On the other hand, the alternative that we have now has its own issues, problems, and abuses.  Is it better or worse?  Matter of opinion mostly.

Not being involved with the main cliques of the server and being an outsider isn't subjective. It's been a negative staple on this server since forever(how many times have clique threads and concerns about not fitting in have come up?). Most of it has been unintentional, but today, for example, six of eight people logged in were part of a faction off doing their own thing. The players of the faction are all nice and inviting, but unless you break character to get RP with them for whatever reason, you're not involved at all.

How far you get(and as fast as the thread suggests) still depends majorly on what clique you're in and how much attention it is getting, just as it always has. The good aspects are subjective, but the bad aspects are not. The good aspects are that you're pretending to have integrity by not breaking character and shoehorning yourself into a position you don't belong for XP. But in the end, that doesn't matter, because you aren't rewarded by anything but a pat on your own back.

The current system is miles better than the old.

Suggestions to fix that, well, I have none. You just have to roll with it, really. You can't punish players for playing with friends or rolling characters together.

+2 to Red Mage.  

The only other remedy is having DMs that cater to the interest of the folks not getting attention.  Or having people roll characters for your given faction/concept/etc.  Unfortunately, the DM factor depends on the amount of active DMs, the amount of DMs allowed by the admins, etc.  But everyone can try to do something as a player while s/he can.  

Ideally, DMs will notice the initiative taken and do something about it.  I know things do not always work as ideal, though.

Sincerely,
Arya

It's also a distinctly negative word, generally used in the context of attacking people.  It connotes distinctly negative behavior, and brings to mind the high school/middle school personality bullshit that often lurks beneath the surface in many online communities.  It's also one I don't like seeing used when it's being tossed at people who are just having fun with friends, and actively trying to reach out to involve others.



Or they break character to involve yours.  What you play is a choice, and yes, in an ideal world there'd be tons of people on playing all sorts of concepts so everyone would have a consistent RP group.  Even back in the days of full server playercount though, we didn't have enough to cover everything.  I can't force people to come join a given character/group/etc, I can't force them to make characters that get along with yours.  Yes, on some level I can nudge people OOCly, but in the end it's on you to make them interested in hanging out with you.

I also can't force DMs to cater to you.  I'd love it if we had DMs spending time individually with every single player, but that's highly unrealistic.

So what can I do?  I leave it mostly to what's fun for people, because that's what we're here for.  On some level, eventually, it's up to you to make it fun/interesting for others to play with you.




I submit that it wouldn't matter if we took all the xp away from everyone, or simply removed all outside rewards.  People would still be grouped up and having fun (well, assuming anyone bothered to play period), and others would still be complaining about being 'left out'.

...That's just an awful argument to make and further diminishes those who feel left out(this is about new players and the new players who almost always bring this sort of thing up). I mean, really FW? Their just not interesting enough to be invited by, let's use new words then, the "collective society" of older players who are comfortable playing with one another through trust and experience?

I understand that there are very limited options to this problem, and this problem persists on many older servers, but telling new players that perhaps they have failed in making their character accessible or interesting is kind of mean spirited. It's up to the vets to bend to the ways a bit to include them.

What can you do? We have a community who is very open and welcoming to newer players and try their best to ensure that they do fit in and they do have things to do. But how far does that extend? The first day? We could offer them a spot in something when they start. Go ahead and give them a foot in somewhere, even if it's an artificial company for new players to start off. They'd immediately be introduced into a community in game right off the bat. Have the eyes and ears sign them up like a draft when they receive their guild character. Have /listpcs name players who are apart of the organization list people who are also apart of it so they can move toward players of similar interest. Just some guidance perhaps that would ease their transition into a new school.  

Let me try putting this in an example.

I set up a sports league, where people come play sports.  We let them pick what sport they want to have fun playing, they're not stuck with any one sport, but they have the right to pick.  Some people are playing soccer, basketball, and volleyball.  You decide you really want to be a baseball player, and only a baseball player.

When and where am I supposed to force them to come play baseball with you?  I'd certainly love if people wanted to play baseball too, and I can help make sure there's a baseball field ready to play on, with lots of fresh shiny equipment.  But I can't make them want to come play it with you - only you can do that, ultimately.

Now, that's somewhat a crude analogy, but asking others to conform to your desired playstyle is no better than asking you to conform to theirs.  If anything, it's worse, because it's asking a bunch of people to change, rather than just one.  You yourself have pointed out how friendly and inclusive people are, and that's exactly what I've seen.  People jump all over themselves trying to include and welcome new players.  I don't see the kinds of things I have on other servers, where new people are forced to jump through hoops, prove esoteric knowledge of lore, etc, to join a group.

I take this a little seriously because I've seen rampant accusations of cliques undermine and destroy lots of fun groups, and drive off many good players involved in them, in the past.  I don't like seeing it thrown around.  If there's a specific problem that isn't just "people play what they have fun playing", well, I'd like to hear it, but right now that's all I'm getting.

I think what RedMage is getting at is that the 'people play what they have fun playing' often do so as a collective group, and unless you have a character that can tie into that group they tend to not try to involve you.  After all, they're having fun in their group, why would they invite other people that may ruin the group dynamic or go against its roleplay?  That'd ruin their fun.  When one's character is outside this group they get minimal roleplay with them.  If a character is outside ALL the groups (as new players often are) they pretty much get no roleplay period.  This also happens to long-term players whose groups and friends have mostly left - Since most of the players already know what that old character is like they can determine whether or not their new character would have fun interacting with the other, without ever having to actually do so.  Or if that older character would fit in their group or not.  It's metagaming sure, but it's also just common sense.  You sometimes need to try to shoehorn yourself into a group, which doesn't work half as often as it just annoys people.

To extend your analogy, imagine a baseball team that really enjoys playing baseball together because they're all friends already and are very comfortable with each other.  They're not going to be very likely to include some random kid they don't know, not as likely as a random group of kids would be at least.  They already know they have fun in their group.  A random element is a risk to the fun they know they'll have.

I think we've already established that people are generally welcoming if you want to join in what they're doing.  What they're not necessarily comfortable with is someone else expecting them to alter the group's established norms in order to fit what the newcomer expects, rather than the other way around.  And I can't really say that's an unfair expectation - who should have to change, the one or the many?

The point I'm getting at, is this sort of example:

-Six people want to play Elves, and have been playing Elves.

-One person wants to play a Zhentarim Priest of Bane.

A) Is it really a surprise that there's not going to be much involvement for that guy?
B) Yes, he feels left out and annoyed. What do you expect me to do about it?

I try to help everyone to have fun, but at some point, there's only so much I can do, and I start to get tired of hearing the same complaints over and over again, when I have to keep responding the same way.  You can:

A) Adjust your roleplay and try to find compromises so that you fit in with a larger group, to whatever degree you find fun.
B) Try and make things more interesting for others to play the kind of characters that fit with the group you have in mind.

I will gladly try to help with either of these things, to the extent I can.  I will point out opportunities, and like-minded players and ideas.  If my characters fit with your concept, I will go out of my way to try and become involved with them.  I will try to encourage DMs to run things for you.  If you can give me sufficient inspiration I might even be able to come up with stuff to run, myself. 

What I don't want people to do:

A) Bitch incessantly about how everyone else is a bunch of cliquish fucks because they don't play what you want, or won't tolerate your evil/good/lawful/chaotic/rude/obnoxious/antisocial/etc character.
B) Expect DMs/Admins/Fire Wraith/etc to ruin other peoples' fun by telling them they can't play with their friends.

I just don't agree, and that's OK. Even children's shows and cartoons successfully assimilate non common people together in a story. It shouldn't be only segregation or too bad, deal with it. And it shouldn't be so personal. This server is a living organism, and you can't dictate everything that happens, especially social issues. It's up to the players, especially the established veterans to invite newer players, even if they don't  fit their groups mold, to expand story telling and their own characters. They are the more experienced here, and they should be able to shoulder more work more skillfully.

Right now, it's just avoid those you know oocly aren't a perfect match of interest for your group, and that's not OK. I'm guilty of this as well, and it's something  we can all be more cognizant of.

As I've been saying repeatedly - most people are pretty good at trying to involve new people.  But there's only so much you can ask them to change to accommodate before it becomes unreasonable.

Honestly, if you want to play with other people, the MAKE IT WORK.   I understand everyone has their own PC, and your right to play them as you feel fits them best.   But this is the internet.   And if you refuse to give any ground to make it work with people, don't expect to go far.   I'm not saying you can't stick to your guns, or exclude things your PC doesn't agree with ic.   But, you can make a point without being insulting, you can listen to a insult without taking it the worse way possible, you can let go of petty things and grudges and you can understand this is a Co op server where the goal is to work with others in order to move plots along.  

Yes you can be evil, work in the backround and add to our server, no you'll never become a dark god.   No morally grey people are not good people, nore are they evil people.   FR has good, and evil.   You are not required to be one or the other, but that balance effects all things.    I personaly play a CG ranger.   I've in the last years toned down my hard line "me vs you" mindset, and guess what I have more fun.   I look for a reason to work with people, rather then look for a reason not to.  Yes there are people my PC doesn't want to work with.  And I make sure if I do anyway I RP that fact, but on a ooc note I want everyone involved as much as possible.    

We have developed a style here where it's the in/out crowd and we're hoarding events and pointing fingers and getting mad over dm attention being unbalanced.   I wonder what it would be like if like I stated before, everyone here on a ooc note looked for a reason to include, rather then exclude people.  It's not a race, there is no prize for first place here.    

One thing to keep in mind...

If a character is ICly very nasty toward other people, there are consequences.  People will not want to deal with the character, ICly.  But it is all in-character.  This has come up a few times when I played on the server.  It is just how it goes.

Sincerely,
Arya

Except there is a prize for 'first place' so to speak.  There are several.  Whether that prize is more XP, good items, or simply lots of quests, there are definite advantages to being in a group whether it be IC or OOC.  Put simply, friends do things for friends, whether that be running gnolls a bunch of times to get that rare Tier 5 item one person needs, banding together to grab a DM for a quest that otherwise wouldn't have enough interest, providing roleplay connections and avenues that wouldn't exist between non-groupmates, or in extreme cases, DMs spoon-feeding friends a large number of high-level quests or, in one noteworthy incident from a while ago, straight up giving friends powerful and borderline-illegal items.  Having seen all these things and more, and the fallout or lack thereof from them, I'm very leery of groups, especially ones that either appear too insular or get a lot of DM attention.  Adding to this, groups can sometimes get large enough that they don't really need any more members, in which case you get an 'inner circle' and a bunch of vaguely associated hangers-on., and only the inner circle reaps the benefits.

Call me paranoid (because I am) but the fact is this stuff happens more frequently than a lot of people like to admit.

And it's not that we're demanding it be "fixed". I brought this up originally in this thread because of how often I heard it be complained about to me before new players left the server.

So, Trylo.

I see a list of concerns.  My question is...

What is your proposed solution?  

I know for myself, I have a very low tolerance for habitually passive-aggressive behaviour and constantly negative people.  So most of the time, I have a very hard time including players who fit in those categories.  I can work with people, but only to the extent people show appreciation and are not always negative.  Like I have told a number of players: I would prefer a positive player with mediocre RP ability over a good RPer who does nothing but spew out nasty things about others and their "lack" of skill. And said people only having conversations based on putting other players down behind their backs.  Mediocre RP can be fixed, attitudes are harder to fix.  Sure at times I am just one person and cannot include -everyone,- but I know I deliberately avoid  people who are very negative as players.

Most staff I have conversed with find it the most draining to do quests for players who are constantly negative - especially when they make the staff members feel that they can never do enough for that person. And really, they are not being paid to do anything. For all we know, they have to deal with a person like that in their job on a regular basis. So, why should they have to deal with that in a place that is meant to be relaxing for them? Speaking as a former staff member who wants to potentially return to staff in the near future, I know I certainly have a hard time doing events for such people.  

It is common sense, really.  If the person is unable to show respect toward other players, it is no wonder they are not having respect in return. And this can sometimes translate toward people not wanting to include others because of player attitudes.

I am not going to disagree with the folks saying groups have their consequences.  For they do.  Even if unintentional (in a lot of cases, it is unintentional).  But, it is not a new thing and I think most people who succeed with dealing with it the best do it by having a generally positive attitude, think of ways to work with multiple people (and sometimes, those groups, even if to play some healthy IC conflict), and avoid the whole bashing-other-players all the time.  They find ways to fit with the setting, and take advantage of the times they can change the setting - not make the setting fit their ways of doing things (lest snarkiness and rage follow).  If they really do not enjoy the server so much to where they can only be negative all the time as players, they play less or flatout move on.  And that is just how it has to go sometimes.  It might only be a small percentage of players, but a small percentage of NWN players may not - no, do not, belong on CD.  They might, however, belong on another server.

~Arya

Postscript: cleaned this up a bit.  My brain can sometimes go faster than my fingers. >.>

Sorry if I come across as passive-aggressive, it's just how I sound when I'm complaining about something - I'm an ex-moderator (for 7-8 years) so I was told to never name and shame, so I'm not going to bring up specifics in a public discussion unless I know nobody cares anymore.  This really isn't directed at any specific group right now anyway (While your group has a lot of folks involved with it, it's in no means non-inclusive) but more at the fact it tends to keep happening.  It's not unusual to see half a dozen players make new characters to 'fit in' with these groups, too - The biggest example of this in recent memory was the 9-man dwarf pack back when the dwarves were the only group that got quests (which was based on the OOC friendship between the dwarves' leader and the DM running those quests, making this a double example).  When the quests stopped coming, the dwarves all vanished again.  Stonehaven is another recent example - I think Logarti is the only active person that was associated with that project despite the fact Stonehaven was, during its peak, more important than the main plot to most of the server and not being associated with it meant you'd never see a DM.  Then there are OOC groups as well, people that always seem to have characters associated with each other or who keep backing each other up - I'm sure most senior players remember the 'Unholy Trinity' of DMs that almost killed the server a while ago because they let their OOC friendship conquer any sense of duty they felt to the server as a whole.  Unless you were willing to suck up to them you got no DM attention at all while they and their favored were showered in items and XP on a twice-weekly basis.  The OOC groups aren't often much of a problem unless, again, they happen to be the only ones doing anything at the moment.

I'll use an example from another server since nobody here would get offended by that.  Actually happened just last night.  A group of people were getting ready to go off and explore some dungeons when I encountered them on one of my characters.  One of them mentioned this so my character asked to go, as you do.  The leader of the group promptly refused on the basis of not knowing my character - A reasonable claim admittedly, which my character acknowledged - but this left me locked out of any interaction on the server since everyone else online was in this group.  I had no choice but to turn around and log off because this group wouldn't accept me.  That's...  not a good feeling, and it doesn't make me want to want to log into that server.

What's a proposed solution?  To be honest, there isn't one for the larger issue of people clustering together.  That's something that's always going to happen since it's human nature, and isn't in and of itself a bad thing.  The most I can ask for is that groups be inclusive and inviting.  Let people into that inner circle after a while.  Invite people to go along with you, especially on quests that don't require secrecy.  This includes people you might not necessarily enjoy roleplaying with - They're never going to change their behavior if you never give them a chance to after all, and it might not be as hard as you think.  Some of us (like me!) aren't generally negative people, but we've gotten that way over the years because of chronic patterns of behavior (like the one I'm discussing, a big one for me).  It's tough to overcome that knee-jerk reaction for both parties, but putting some effort into it could yield good times down the road.

OOC groups are the ones that tend to be more dangerous, especially when a DM gets involved.  Admins need to keep an eye on these - If one person is running a disproportionately large number of quests for someone or some group, that needs to be watched.  Especially if items are being handed out, since this can easily lead to corruption on a grand scale that imbalances the server for months or years.  Not much players can do about these, but DMs and admins should be alert to this and willing to intervene at the first sign of it happening.

To clarify, it was not the forum post I was commenting on specifically when I made that statement about player attitudes, Trylo. :-) The part that was directed to you, I tried to make explicit.  I was just pointing out the times when I have avoided including people. I apologise if it came across as otherwise! I can see how it did!

Fortunately, I do not have too many examples of what or who I do not include, either.  


Sincerely,
Arya

OOC groups that are tight can be a good source of entertainment for their members. They definately serve a purpose. On the other hand, if they're too exclusive, they end up being a dead weight in the sense that they aren't open to give and take with the rest of the population. Showing up with your buddies, so to speak, is a great way to turn an idea into reality, however. It just needs to open up eventually, otherwise it disappears sooner or later when its only source of life (a DM in the group of buddies) bows out for whatever reason.

So, there are pros and cons to this type of grouping behavior. It certainly applies to the new player scenario. It has become, it seems to me, more common in recent years that new players arrive in groups of two or three, with a set of RP goals and concepts they want to push. This is definately good, except that unless it opens up eventually, those small newcomer groups will find that they haven't made any allowance for meshing with others. Perhaps a DM will take interest, but this is as likely as it is not, and newcomers should not solely blame the DMs if it doesn't work out.

Speaking from personal experience, and I want to minimize that aspect so this doesn't become self-centered, it can be extremely difficult to try to enroll newcomers into existing stories and plans, especially when they come with their own. In this particular case I think the onus is more on the newcomers to try to mesh, perhaps by adopting some of the goals of those already present. Alternatly, both sides should make efforts to link up plans and goals in some reciprocal benefit scheme. This can be difficult too, but none of us, old or new, should be defined by a single thing. We should all have a few goals, some major, some minor, some we can go along with to help others in order to be helped later. This seems like something we should all strive for, because it is the mark of a well fleshed-out character concept.

Well... We could all just get along too... That's a good solution.
Exchange hugs, bake cookies together...
Bottle of wine? Hey, I'm down for that...



I think sometimes we all need to be reminded that not everyone is out to get us.
Everybody has a little something to contribute. Heard your character likes dancin', Hey! Show me those dance moves!
Wow... You're really kickin' it, that's fresh...

I drew you guys a picture:
((Nevermind, I need to re-download Photoshop and MS Paint isn't working.))
It's a picture of us all happy and together! Wow... That sure looks like a good time, don't ya think?

At the end of the day we can... Kick back and relax.
Talk about old times and get a laugh thinkin' about the good old days.
Come to a startling conclusion that... It doesn't have to end there.
I'll see you tomorrow, we'll pick up where we left off, you choose where we hunt next time.

Won't you be...
Won't you be!
Won't you be.... My neighbor.

This thread went way beyond my ability to keep up with, but this comment stuck out to me and I wanted to comment briefly on it:

I wouldn't care.

Even if they hit level 16 in two weeks, they'd still lack a lot of special gear I'd possess and they'd still wouldn't know people IC and OOC like I do.  In fact, I'd generally be happy because it's someone new to play with and new blood is always welcome.  I'm far more concerned with a pool of available players to do fun stuff with than trying to make sure I'm immensely stronger than new players.

I do get your point in general -- if someone was able to join the server and catch-up to to the most advanced players in the course of a day then that would potentially be aggravating.  But there's a huge difference between catching up in a day and being able to catch up to the *average* in a month or two.  And you're looking at 6-12 months to catch up solely in terms of level.  To put this in perspective: the original NWN campaign took about 40 hours.  Even something like Dragon Age was about 100 hours (that was an insanely long and aggravating campaign on Nightmare).  Those same 100 hours of the XP ticker would yield 7500 XP (25 days at 4 hours per day and 300 XP per day).  That's not even enough XP to go from level 15 to level 16 alone (7000 from kills, 7500 from ticket, still 500 short of 16).

You could play all the NWN campaigns (80ish hours total), all the Mass Effect campaigns (90ish hours total), and all the Dragon Age series (170ish hours total) to get 25,500 XP from the ticker.  From 15 to 16 takes 8000 so that leaves 17500.  From 14 to 15 takes 7000 so that leaves 10500.  From 13 to 14 takes 6000 so that leaves 4500.  From 12 to 13 takes 5000 so that leaves us with -500.  So going from level 12 to 16 is roughly the same length as NWN + ME + DA all combined -- and that's just to get to the *average* level of the server.  And that's not even counting the time to get UP to 12 either, which still probably clocks in around 4000 + 3000 + 2000 + 1000 - 1000 (figure 1000 XP from quests if you're lucky) = 9000 XP = 30 days of 300 XP each = another 120 hours.

Obviously if you're happy with that, great.  But a new player seeing that if he plays 75 minutes per day and instantly started at level 8 that it would take him an entire year to hit level 16 (not max level, not highest PC level, just an *average level*) is probably not going to be thrilled.  And even someone playing four hours per day (28 hours per week) would still take a good four months.

So have fun, best of luck, I appreciate the efforts of the people I ran into in-game, and I hope the server stays strong in the future...but I don't think it's for me.

I never played any video games sorry. I played Pen and paper D&D then NWN as a way to role play the game I loved. To me, the time it takes to get to average server level is very valuable because it allows me to explore the character, develop and change goals, and tell a story.

I like advancing in levels because it feels like I accomplished something. I don't get that nearly as much for Levels 3-8 because I can do that in two three days. A level that I worked for, that I did things more than just kill endless goblins - that meant a lot more to me.

And I feel perfectly fine role-playing with level 3 new characters and level 30 epics. I don't need everyone to be my level in order to feel like I can hang out with them or go find adventures. I have to really concur with what someone said a long while ago in this thread - "don't count the ticks".

But I am pretty old and pretty old style. And that is just my experience - everyone brings a different background to shared worlds like this. I am sorry that the server experience didn't match what you were looking for but I suspect you are right - you are looking for something that we just don't really have here. It's not about feeling stronger and superior to new players - it's about taking the time to develop stories and grow characters.

I would second what Daphne said above.

Also, with all due respect I think I noticed a misconception at the OP: you do not have to be for example lvl 16 to go to an adventure with other lvl 16 and being useful, not a ballast or porcelain doll for the others to protect. Sure, if you are lvl 3, it is problematic. But if you are around lvl 10 you can already make meaningful contributions to a lvl 16 group, you just have to find out the way. For example you can cast buffs and heals instead of others, making it possible for the higher lvl characters to save their spell potential for offensive spells. On lvl 10 a Bull's strenght and others hold long enough to finish a dungeon. You might summon creatures just to provide one more target for the enemies, and reduce potential flanking situations against the frontliners. And so on, and so on. It just needs a little creative thinking and some coordinated preparation with your teammates. And getting on lvl 9 or 10 is much more faster than reaching lvl 16. Could take 1-2 weeks tops, depending on how hell-bent you are on grinding.

I mean no offense, honestly curious: given that you CAN just kill endless goblins and let the XP tick up, why does that level mean something to you?

Alternatively, given you can do nothing but stand around and talk about your day in the square and earn XP at the same rate, why does that level mean something to you?

I agree with your general principle -- going on a quest to discover artifacts before a lich finds them and then confronting him in his lair and gaining a level as a result is far more epic than "killed goblins for 10 hours" but how is that actually realized in-game?  Trying to understand your perspective here.

How does that apply to a strength based melee fighter?

- Cannot cast buffs.
- Have no healing abilities besides Healing Kits but those are pretty awful with zero Heal skill.
- Cannot summon creatures
- Cannot contribute effectively with a ranged weapon
- Cannot disarm traps/open locks/find secrets

Sure, a level 10 mage has some things they can contribute to a group despite being lower level.  But how about a traditional fighter?

It doesn't apply. The amount of time a week you need to play if you wish to get maximum rewards on this server isn't comparable to any modern video game or mmo(because some people put in less hours at their jobs than on this server). If you wanted to extend the "doing chores for grind" analogy for "dailies" in this game to wow, gw2, or other modern mmos, then you're out of luck.

This is a sandbox for stories. If you're looking to maximum builds or make characters specifically for fighting without having the story as your primary goal here, then you're going to have a bad time. Everything else is unconsequential in comparison.

Your strength based fighter would need to start from the bottom. If they want to be a tactician, then you'd need to roleplay that. However, you cannot since you are unaware of the dungeon layouts and would be a "worse tactician" than those who have ran it dozens of times. You'd only be useful when throwing the numbers you have against the numbers in appropriate dungeons. This server isn't balanced for parties like that even though it cannot discourage parties like that from forming.

All I can suggest is to try this place again when you have a story in mind for a character to start fresh with and work toward.

1) As I see currently a lot of PCs are mages or have magic-related/focused PrCs on the server. I see relatively few warrior types around. So a frontliner is generally useful. Buffed up silly by the spellcasters you should be able to handle the common monsters in a dungeon, and just retreat a bit when the big baddy monster comes, leaving that to the spellcasters. Who, in comparison, could save their spell potential against it as you could dispose the common riff-raff for them.

2) Even a melee oriented fighter could fall back sometimes to practice his archery a bit, no shame in that... You could also use acid flasks, alchemist's fire, holy water, etc. to put in some damage. Yes, it will not be too much, but you will contribute and the players will appreciate it. That "pretty awful" healings could also be very useful when they come in the right moment.

Thing is, the level difference is becoming a bit less important on higher levels. Let's say, a 5 level difference is huge when we are speaking of a lvl3 and a lvl8 char. But a lvl 11 is a quite competent character in itself, even when compared with a lvl 16. A lvl 16 mage can empower your lvl11 fighter much better and can bring the fighter's prowess much more up, compared to a lvl8 mage trying to do the same to a lvl3 fighter.

Well, the part about "all you can do is stand around and talk about your day" is where I think we have different perspectives.  I like gaining levels because it allows me to develop skills and talents - planning to add points in healing?  Spend time rp'ing with one of the clerics about, or at the basement level of the Temple of Selune.  Learning a new language? Spend time with someone who can teach you! Taking Dodge as a feat?  Train with someone already experienced!  

So by advancing levels I get to develop my character and gain friends and relationships on the way.  If I spend a day killing goblins at level 4, yah I can move up and get better quickly, and develop my skills - isn't that why we gain levels in the first place?  But it isn't as fun as doing things in-game that allow me reflect the changes on the character sheet.  Yes, it is more fun to have a grand quest to eliminate a dire opponent.  But that is never possible to do all the time, and I think it robs characters of richness and personality if all you ever do is fight.  

2. Fortunately the focus of this server is, like FW said, RPing. I know I seem to be repeating myself, but on an RP server people should focus less on the level of other characters around them, and more on what that character has to offer story wise.


I have not made any statements on this subject since I did not have any real strong feelings on it, but I feel like I need to address this now.

I cringe whenever I see this statement. I know when it's use people are trying to be helpful, but I get the feeling that the major hidden statement is "Go to another server then we RP here'"
 
Unfortunately many times sitting around and chatting about mundane topics, or having PC's run off to get frisky at the inn is mistaken for roleplaying. I may not have as much time in on table top games as some, but I can say I have never seen those to actions take place for the majority of the time on.

At the risk of offending some I am going to say a few things.

Hunting/grinding is the only significant RP for a low level PC. Any class in the game is essentially a newcomer into their field. The only way a newcomer gets better is by training. (Ogre's whitecloaks are a perfect example.) I am not sure how many here have a military background, but those that do will probably be able to attest that most non combat military time is spent training and drilling for the real deal.

As for what a character has to offer story wise. It has been my experience across multiple RP servers (no grinding action serves.) that only once a character is powerful enough that they cannot be discounted or ignored by other established characters, that they can really contribute. Until then any view tossed out by the character will be treated with disdain by those who can simply smack them down.




With all that said I have not run into those issues above. I will part by saying this.

Most every player here is not new to the concept of an RP server. NWN is an old game that's proven rather resilient, but we are not seeing new bodies join up anymore. What we have are mostly rp vets who are moving to what remains, and probably most of them have had toons they poured a load of time into, and now are stuck back at square zero trying to get something going again.

And I'll add that "Go to another server then, we RP here'" is not at all what I meant by that statement... At all.
The meaning of that was that this is an RP server, so you don't need to worry too much about the situation of level difference. In fact I'll argue the point that lower level characters have better opportunity for role play than higher level characters, or at least more of a fresh experience. By the time a character reaches epic levels or tier 4 level, their story is already run through and they usually sit on the side lines and watch others build things up, but that point has already been brought up before in this topic so I'll end this here to avoid running this topic in circles... Again...

Thing is... Don't rush it, enjoy each level, if you worry about your level being too low all the time then you're gonna feel like you're missing out all the time... That's how it works. I recently played as a level 4 character on a quest where I'm sure half the people participating where two to four levels above me, and I still had a blast role playing the events out in the quest (minus the random internet disconnections...), not once did I feel like I was lagging the team behind or feel like I was out of place. I got my ass kicked a few times on that quest, sure, but what I lacked in a fight I made up for with role playing out the character and his specialties, which... Get this... had nothing to do with combat.

I lol'd. +1

I tend to avoid running off like that blatantly.  Like...  really.  There's better Rp honestly.

I've played so many nwn servers at this point I've honestly lost count.   Both sides have points and I honestly agree that getting to 16 easier would bring a change to the server.   That said, I doubt it would happen.   At the same time, many people have said that levels have little impact and it's a matter of what you bring to the story, I am sorry but that is only half true.   Yes, a smart and good rper can impact a story no matter what PC they are driving.  That said, like pointed out above, a lvl 10 fighter typ with our gear requirements is not gonna hold a line in a 16+ quest.   Yes leveling here takes a long time, and I'm like you Balkoth, I honestly can't stand being low in levels and doing nothing about it.  It bothers me like I'm not putting effort into the game.  I first came here years ago, and the server was lower in levels back then.   16 was more of less what 20 is now.  And it took forever to reach it.   If I hadn't had a group of friends here to keep me grounded to the server I'd likely have left.   At the same time my play style is to get out and get involved in things.   Nowdays Elf stands in the square cause I don't want to run around Elfing every plot that rolls through the server.   But when i was new, I played my ranger SD to any angle I could, I snooped, fought and when outleveled grabbed the quest items and ran for the door if needed.   Anyway, so yeah I hear you and agree with you, but as others have said the server is more or less set in it's ways and likely not about to change.   I'd highly suggest you try to stick it out, but in the end it's whatever is fun for you.    

I can honestly say our server is one of the more fun ones to stick with, and while slower to start if one does stay it has much more room for a player to make a impact then some of the other larger based servers where you grind out levels with rp exp req's to worry about.  

I don't have a whole lot to add to this, but the original post brings up a lot of concerns that I would echo. I thought the people were friendly, the gameplay was interesting and varied, and the server is built very well. That said, as much as everyone else has had to do it, I haven't met anyone who actually appreciates the system of leveling. Just a heads up, that by adding additional, if even incredibly marginal methods of developing experience actively, you may have a better chance of keeping new players who are searching for a server.

And perhaps my thoughts on the matter don't hold a lot of weight. But my schedule is at total odds with all of the announced quests, so I am unable to participate in most, if not all. I like to RP, but I also like my character to level up and get bigger numbers and be.. generally more interesting to play. This system does not work for me, and I get that. So I wish you all well, but thought I might add my opinion if to do nothing but highlight the importance of this issue.

The saddest thing, though, is that yes; the server does seem like one that is totally worth sticking with. However, if you can't play at peak hours, it gets frustrating very quickly.

Try requesting events for your character. There are DMs who are around at off-peak hours some of the time, and if you give them the courtesy of allowing them plenty of time to prepare, they can throw something together for you (and a few of the people you like to play with in those same off-peak hours - share the off-peak love!), so that you're getting DM events, as well.

Yes - in many cases, the quests being posted are put up at those times mainly in an attempt to cater to when lots of people are on. If we have players available at other times, often other times are convenient for some of us, too.

Another suggestion is to get involved with other players, such as involvement with a faction or group of some kind, as this will tend to draw you into more plots and events simply as a result of that - nevermind being fun on its own.