Cormyr and the Dalelands

Okay, so I did alot of research on a Goddess of the Seldarine named Vandria, one that I haven't heard much about before my research, compared to other Seldarine gods and goddess. Seems information is limited on her, and upon reading what kind of folk worship her, I've seen LN, LG, NG, and those of her temple are said to be "Clerics".

Does Vandria have a group of Paladins of some sort? Does she even prefer to have paladins to her ways at all? I ask this because there aren't many paladins of the Elven faith, mostly because most elven deities are CG or CN (unless we want to delve into Drow deities too, extending that to CE as well). This brings up a thought to me because Vandria might be the only elven deity that is Lawful, Lawful Good to be exact, in which case would open up opportunities for paladins.

Thoughts? Confirmation?

I'd be glad if there was.. They let me be my Elven paladin on EFU. (And talk about sticklers for canon!) but not here.

You can be an elven paladin of a non elven deity.

You could be a paladin of Torm and still pay respects to elven deities. Torm would just be your patron.

To my understanding, Vandria has paladins.  However...

She is also specific to the Oerth setting, if I am not mistaken.

So, whether an elf can be an elven paladin or not of her, I suppose, is up to the people in charge.  Though...the rules insist you would end up with an equivalent deity in that situation. Or rather, receiving powers from a similar deity.  Vandria's equivalent in the Forgotten Realms would be the Red Knight, likely.

Sincerely,
Arya

Postscript: In my opinion, some of the elven deities are NG or LG, or should be (including one Dae worships).  But eh. Vhaeraun used to be NE and is now CE. Someone decided all elven deities needed to be chaotic, at some point, probably. <.<

Vandria is not of the Faerun pantheon.  From what I can tell, Arya's correct... her equivalent would be the Red Knight.

That said, there are rumors of Corellon paladins from 2nd Edition.  He wouldn't be the first chaotic deity with paladins (see Sune & Selune).  I think a reasonable argument could be made for an order of paladins under his patronage.

I completely agree with this statement.

BTW... the entry for Corellon in Demihuman Deities notes several other knightly orders and organisations for elven worshippers of Corellon. Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower is the order of Elven Knights and Paladins. The book is 2nd Edition but has the info you are looking for.

Keven is apart of that order and loosely apart of the Knaves of the Missing Page if you want a PC to hook you up in-game. I've been RPing him as just returning from Evereska.

I personally have no issues with elven paladins of Corellon. Then again, I try to work the material to help people make what they want, versus the alternative. :-D

Sincerely,
Arya

Thanks for all of the answers!
I was generally just curious about Vandria and why I haven't seen any elven paladins on the server.

I'd love to have one, but apparantly elves in FR are incapable of discipline. And somehow they have armies. Go figure.

It's perfectly possible to have an elven paladin of an elven pantheon deity. Unlike clerics, paladins do not need to be within one alignment jump from their deity. There are several canon examples of this, most notably the Order of the Ruby Rose, which includes paladins to a CG deity (Sune). This is because paladins are not necessarily following an LG dogma, they're following the dogma of their deity in a lawfully good manner.

Applying a personal, LG code to a character following a CG deity can lead to some interesting RP. I encounter the same thing with my paladin on the server, who follows an LN deity. Not only can she encounter evil within her church's own priesthood, but even potentially within her knightly order, as it allows non-paladins and does not have an alignment requirement other than non-chaotic.

It is worth nothing that I cannot think of any canon FR examples of elven paladins (though there are some very closely related prestige classes and what have you). However, it is also worth noting two things:

1) There is nothing that explicitly prohibits either paladins of CG deities or paladins of the Seldarine.

2) Baelnorns (elven protector-liches) can have their Baelnorniness gifted to them directly by the Seldarine, and Baelnorns are explicitly stated to be "usually Lawful Good"; this to me is explicit proof that the Seldarine will empower non-cleric LG individuals for the purposes of protecting/furthering elvenkind.

Actually page 8 of Faiths and Pantheons says that a deity must have paladin levels to grant paladin spells. Of course not all the paladin deities listed have paladin levels, but I always assumed those were the exceptions and thats why they were listed

Also from the Faiths and Pantheons Errata:

Other lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good deities that are not
listed can have paladins, but there are no known paladin orders for those faiths (in effect, paladins of those faiths are uncommon enough that rarely are there enough to band together and form an order).

Thank you, Psappho. I think the "Chaotic" part of elves gets taken way too far. To the point where I hear characters declaim that elves don't really have armies because they're 'too chaotic'. I guess the orcs will be happy to learn the news.

Let's remember that DIY was the watchword of Gygax right from the start and people constantly lose sight of this basic tenet of D&D that's built into the DNA of the thing.


All this is ultimately a 'campaign' (to use their war terminology) that has as its DM Fire Wraith. If he wants to call that Seldarine can't have paladins, I'll go along with that and not even argue the point. Rules lawyering in a game like this is a pointless exercise and just leads to a lot of grudge nursing.

The conflict comes trying to reconcile different information from different editions.  Usually, we take 3.5 information over older editions in these situations.

As for CG deities having paladins:  they generally require specification.  ThayanKnight is correct on the errata.  LG, LN, and NG deities can have paladins (but without paladin orders); CG deities require specification.  This is why Sune and Selune have specified orders that override the usual rule.  That said, there is evidence that Corellon (not the whole Seldarine) had paladins and paladin orders.  This is why several of staff members are ruling on the side of "yes, Corellon can have paladins."

Pretty much what Bella said.  Those are my thoughts on the topic, even if there is still some ambiguity on the matter on whether it is a knightly order or a paladinic order that Corellon supports in those noted cases. If it were up to me, I would be all for the paladins of Corellon if they follow one of his knightly orders.  And truthfully, I am inclined to support house rules that do not rewrite every single rule out there, but still give some leeway for people to enjoy themselves.  Unless something in the material absolutely says "never," I am going to support what people want to make.  When it comes to the case of contradictions, such as the juxtaposition between Faiths and Pantheons proposed by ThayanKnight and the material out there on Corellon's knight orders in the Forgotten Realms, I am going to give the latter the benefit of the doubt.

I think the rules are important, but I have seen two different schools of thought concerning them and how to enforce them.  The server as a collective has often fluctuated on doing so, as well, whether through seeing the need for change or other matters:

1. Using the rules to limit and keep character concepts under a very rigid sense of normalcy. As hard as it is to believe, I get pretty put off by this when people try to overdo it with the elves (even if I complain about evil elves more than good drow).  <.< And it was one reason I stopped playing a few times. Because I play my elves and enjoy them. :-D 

2. Using the rules as guidelines, looking for ways and even 'loopholes' in the material to help others make the characters they want.  And if necessary, even working on ways through story and lore to create exceptional characters - especially when they reach epic and I feel story is more important than mechanics.

I am partial to the second option.  As much as I have a reputation for the drow and elven lore, and being rather eccentric about it, I am more inclined to help a player make a character concept that still follows what I perceive as the spirit of the setting, but not to the point of making another cookie-cutter character...to put it bluntly.  And something that helps contribute to the server, the character, and the player's enjoyment.

For instance, and mildly off topic for a moment, I have heard people say that none of the Seldarine would ever take a fiend-tainted elf except for Fenmarel Mestarine.  And this particular situation has caused disagreement regarding a character here who sincerely was seeking connection with his elven blood, despite that he had fiend blood, seeking an elven deity and ending up with Fenmarel Mestarine.  I am guessing that this is because of the line mentioned in the descriptor for fey'ri in Races of Faerun, that state how neutral fey'ri worship Fenmarel Mestarine (keep in mind, fey'ri are specifically sun-elven made within a specific Forgotten Realms historical context).  None of this material, even then, explicitly states that the Seldarine gods do not take them.  Only Shevarash is plainly noted in the descriptor to not take these waywards.*

In short, the rules are important for guidelines, but I do not enjoy people "book-bashing" or using the material to only enforce a restrictive ideology on how they believe the game "should-be."  And I also equally have issue with snark and back-biting that occurs when people do not get their way when it is not even their character or themselves involved.  <.< These sort of situations ruin the fun for everyone. 


Sincerely,
Arya



*And on a note, it is an older edition, but still significant to the topic: Sehanine Moonbow has a 'tiefling' worshiper mentioned in Hallowed Grounds, who was an elf with a cambion parent. Because nothing in 3.5 flatly contradicts this possibility in the rules, I am going to assume book-thumping on this subject is moot.

Oh, I'm all for elven paladins.  I was merely arguing the fact that there was something "that explicitly prohibits either paladins of CG deities or paladins of the Seldarine".  

And in cases like that, I am quite happy with a house rule that makes sense even if the mechanics may not fully agree with it. *Grin.* In the name of making stories.  I think the Forgotten Realms contradicted the rule on the "CG deities and paladins" piece in Faiths and Pantheons. But like Bella said, specificity is important in such exceptions.


Sincerely,
Arya

Oh, and while the subject is up, why not just go fighter/Divine Champion? Its not exactly the same mechanically, but the RP is still there.

I'm generally fine with Elven Paladins, as long as it's realized that they're rare, and not always well-liked in Elven Society (sort of viewed as a necessary evil - good to have, but good to have out fighting and crusading, away from where they might bother the more CG folks).  Also, as far as things like non-FR lesser deities, those are fine too, as long as they're placed in FR context... either as an obscure lesser servitor of the primary god of the pantheon (Corellon in this case) or as an alternate aspect of an existing god with strong parallels (like how Lilith is a Priestess of Calistria, a Pathfinder Goddess, as an aspect of Sharess).

We probably need to look over the whole bit with Paladin (and Monk) orders, due to the contorted multi-classing rules that aren't exactly obvious to new players, nor are aligned properly to our class assortment vis a vis textbook D&D.

This, pretty much, I'd say that would be the very appeal of a Paladin of say Corellon, this is someone who meets all the usual standards of a hero but... the very people he or she serves are uncomfortable around them, oh they are grateful for the heroism but... something about them is just off putting. They don't quite fit in.... and the role they fill is already filled by the Bladesingers. It would be an interesting take on a Paladin I feel. As for the how, well Fire touched on it, and in the Seldarine's case, the existence of said servitor is not hard to imagine. The Seldarine is one of the more well known Good Pantheons, it's not inconcievable that a Lawful Good entity was drawn to Correllon for his well acknowledged wisdom overlooking his Chaotic side, to serve one of the primary Good dieties in the planes.

Truth be told, I have always seen deities like Corellon, Sehanine Moonbow, and Labelas Enoreth to have roles that make them a bit more serious compared to some of the other elven gods.  They seem the type who are strongly leaning more on the good side of their given alignment than the chaotic side.  If anything, Hanali Celanil's temperament is like Sune and I have found deities like that to have stronger chaotic leanings, yet Sune has her own order in the human pantheon.  Corellon's governance of war for the Seldarine makes him a good choice.

And yes, I think the roleplay in this situation can be a nice challenge.  I myself play a sneak that is clearly elven at the core, yet has developed to where she is at odds with her own people because of her transitions.  I can see the same sort of dilemma with elven paladins bar differing skillsets and reasons.

Sincerely,
Arya

So was this a "yes"? If so I have a character rebuild request coming up...

I'm guessing it's a yes, Morwen.  

*does the snoopy happy dance*