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Would it help if widgets were made for some of them, like EMA, Deadeye, or even Greater Timestop? That would free up some slots and let spells with an actual DC use a player's stats and build.

Jul 30, 2016 22:30:09 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

Unfortunately, most wall spells won't work right in NWN.    Any that should be solid, block movement, LoS, etc, we really can't do.

Others might be doable, but there aren't really any visuals for them that would give any sort of accurate representation of the AoE.

Any feedback on higher level summons or adding a small weapon to the Spike spell?

Chiming in to remind people that NWN as a community is a very small, dying breed. As a newer player, it is already extremely hard to find people to do things with and most of the servers just aren't for me because either there is: a long catch up experience which is watered down by many hours of solo play(I still like to play other games for solo-enjoyment), groups that feel strongly toward one another one way or another, people who are very sensitive to change, or people who are very sensitive in general. I just don't have the time to learn a new setting, either, so, it's mostly FR servers for me. Hyper sensitivity is why I tend to avoid forums these days.

I say this because most servers are empty. CD is blessed enough to have the average player base it does after so long. These two players have been kind to me so far ICly and OOCly, and I appreciate that. It means nothing to any of you who may have experienced grief, but sometimes the more mature thing is to look passed personal grievances and look forward to the health of your community. Some people really just want the best for the server, and the best way they can offer that is either critique on the forums, looking out for others who are not comfortable voicing their opinion, or playing their character as they see best to bring vibrance to our pastime. How people act can offend someone or hurt their feelings, but it's best to be transparent about those feelings and speak with the person in a level-headed manner that's not brief; and I see that's what you have done in response to OP's request.

I look forward to RPing with each of you, I just hope that I don't see any of this bleed ICly. Fracturing an already small playerbase endangers more than just the setting. Please remain level-headed and kind is all I can ask. Seeing these kinds of threads as a newer player can be disheartening.

Jul 30, 2016 19:02:08 GMT -5 Edge said:

Jul 30, 2016 12:13:05 GMT -5 Support said:

<abbr class="time" title="Jul 30, 2016 13:13:05 GMT -4" data-timestamp="1469898785000">Jul 30, 2016 13:13:05 GMT -4</abbr> Support said:

Ah, of course there isn't a rule against it. There are many druidic deities. I don't know if there are house rules or server specific rules, nor do I know if I'm correct in my assumption, but I've always assumed praying for negative energy spells which come from the negative energy plane to a non-evil deity wouldn't be favorable, even if the deity has plentiful capability of granting them and the druid him/herself using them.

That's a house rule at best, but more likely a common misunderstanding or mis-assumption. With a few very specific exceptions like Eldath with her pacifism, such spells are not anathema to most druids or druidic deities, or spellcasters in general unless they have a personal reason for disliking or fearing death magic or negative energy.

Negative energy and the NEP are not evil in and of themselves, they're neutral forces, no more than positive energy and the PEP are good (and you can die just as easily from the inhospitable climate on both planes). The commonly-held idea that negative energy itself is evil because of how undead thrive off it, living things wither under it, evil clerics channel it, and several [Evil] spells make use of it is a long- and widely-held mistaken belief.

That's interesting and useful information. Thank you for that. 

I've been looking over sources for spells, and the easiest to translate seem to be these:

www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm

www.anmanindustries.com/anman/stuff/dndconvertable/DrdSpells.pdf

Things I think could be interesting without depending on heartbeat:

2nd level: Fire Trap. I think this spell could be useful in a variety of ways.

3rd level: Wind Wall. This could be an interesting aura spell similiar to how Stormshield is scripted. It could give a small flat reduction to piercing weapons or concealment to arrows(like protection from arrows?).

5th level: Wall of Thorns. Vine Mine could be changed into this. It could be a trap or symbol based spell that does acidic damage with a chance to paralyze.

And the nature guardian spells could be merged into the current summons, and use a "druid" tag similiar to how the planar ones use an alignment tag. There are legendary(epic HD) animals like bears and tigers that are a step above dire tigers and bears. Their size catagory could be bumped up one catagory and stats adjusted. They'd still have all the vulnerabilities a non planar summon would have, but they'd have the unique benefits of being buffed by druid-only spells.

Jul 30, 2016 11:50:51 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

Actually, as far as I'm aware, Spikes was altered to affect Scimitars and Sickles as well.

 I just tested, and it doesn't. But thank you for your insight!

And? Not all Necromancy spells are evil. Slay Living doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. There's no rule against druids using necromantic or death effects. Otherwise the spell wouldn't be on their list.



This is a personal pet peeve of mine that a lot of the NWN playerbase and the D&D community in general seems to have this mistaken idea that Necromancy, as a school, is all evil.

Ah, of course there isn't a rule against it. There are many druidic deities. I don't know if there are house rules or server specific rules, nor do I know if I'm correct in my assumption, but I've always assumed praying for negative energy spells which come from the negative energy plane to a non-evil deity wouldn't be favorable, even if the deity has plentiful capability of granting them and the druid him/herself using them. I love infestation of maggots! I think that spell is great, but it's often a pvp only spell, as most things die long, long before all the saving throw failures. Thanks for your input, though. I appreciate it.

[Nature's Favor]

I normally try to avoid conversations like this on the forums since it often divides some players with staff, especially staff who work every hard for what the server has, but I'd like to throw some overview from my perspective so far playing a druid. I'd like to start with this disclaimer, however.

I am not a high level. I can see the custom spell list, but I don't know all the end game dungeons or high level spell lists. I do not know if druids rely on grouping with other casters to synergize what they have. I've tested some spells recently with a player and spoken with them about Druids. That's pretty much it. I am not a scripter. I know this isn't a triple A mmo with a team devoted to balancing.

Overall, druids lack any synergy with their own spells. Each of their strengths are hamstrung by spells that do not work or spells that are completely absent or untouched. Solutions to their problems seem unworkable or too much work. It would be nice if we could put our heads together to make them continue to be unique without feeling as though we're making a sacrifice for our preference of roleplay and character creation. Let's try to work on buffs that do not make druids similiar to other casters, but maybe something that amplifies druid's current kit which would less likely create some drastic overhaul for admins.

With that said, I'd like to post what I've found so far, and I'd like to restate that I do so with some hesitation and I do so with respect to the current build of the server and its workers.



I'm not sure how to script a "switch" to fix the heartbeat issues plaguing the current AoE spells that rely on per round calculations to function, but I know it can be done. I believe this is the only server I've seen that has had the problem, but I've only played on a handful of servers since 2002-2003. Since Vincent has said he isn't sure how to fix it, let's try and figure out other ways to strengthen druids while not excluding build diversity. I will go through my small spellbook and list some spells I think are usuable and bold others I think are usuable by have a synergy problem with how currently druids operate.

Level 1 spells: Endure Elements, Summon Creature 1, Ultra Vision, Camouflage, Sunscorch, and Nature's Favor are usable spells. At level 9, most of them because pretty lack luster besides Endure Elements and Nature's Favor. There aren't any cantrips to take advantage of metamagic, so it's a pretty uneventful spell circle and the one that could see the most improvement for utility, I think.

Level 2 spells: This spell level is perfect! All of the spells are usuable and have great RP variety. I see many custom spells added and vanilla spells added to make the class comparable to others who can buff stats and the like. This seems to be my busiest spell level, and spell slot rings help much with that.

Level 3 spells: Call Lightning, Protection from Elements, Quillfire, Summon Creature III, Elemental Weapon, Icelance, and Spikes seem to be the real winners here. Call lightning is obviously one of the druid spells that sees the most applause, even at later levels. It's a great, party friendly spell, and I believe it's fine. Quillfire is a great spell as well, but I believe it could benefit from the scaling damage buff that other spells have taken advantage of. The Direwolf is great, and it's where I noticed summons were really beefy, but like any summon, its utility and "useability" is gated by the character level and its design, so its generally unused by the next spell level. Icelance seems to be a useful spell, but it is missing a school tag, so I'm not sure what to focus. Spikes is a great spell in counter to GMW.

Level 4 spells: Again, all of the spells could see play here(besides Murderous Mist, unless that was changed to just be a fireball type spell with a blind). However, at higher levels, I could see only Freedom and Stoneskin seeing play. Languor has potential for greatness, but I'm not sure the DC on it could be useful at higher levels or not. Trash in dungeons tend to die very fast, and bosses tend to be immune to stat decreases or have high saves to avoid mind spells/ death spells. Flame Stike could see play if only for its small divine damage portion, but that's not the best design or beneficial to the class or party(since they may take that divine damage too if aim is off). 

Level 5 spells: A strange level of spells. This is where druidic spellslots start to really suffer. Cure Critical Wounds is pretty much off the table due to the restriction on spell slots. Death Ward is probably also off the table since I imagine there's scrolls and the like that can cover that. Slay Living is a great spell, but it has the stink of necromancy on it. Spell Resistance seems to be the obvious choice for this circle, but its a bit situational. The Dire Bear summon has had a permanent home for me so far. Wall of Fire is fun, but it only triggers once, and that's when an enemy walks through it. With some party coordination, this maaay see play, but I'm sure initiating with one ice storm will net you more secure and higher numbers. Inferno is a great spell, its downplay is that it has spell resistance checks and tends to be useless on trash and impossible to use on bosses. It's weaker than combust's damage, but you only need it to stick once to get its full damage. Vine Mine seems to only be useful to giving more bonus to the Hide skill. Monstrous and Trollish regeneration last too few rounds when healkits are plentiful and cheap. Baleful Polymorph is interesting; I think this is a flavorful and neat spell. Stormshield seems to be completely absent of practical use except for grouping under a dragon's breath or an electrical trap. And in general, it would be much smarter to spread out. It doesn't function as it says it does on the forum's custom spell list(absorb damage then let it back out), and in general, a single protection from elements surpasses it in every way. 

Things I didn't mention: AoE spells(we get it!). Magic Fangs/ Awaken(companions, as stated above, are remaining untouched, so let's accept they aren't going to be combat viable even at level 3; my poor badger got destroyed by rats.) All the Hide buffs/ One against nature. Great spells, and I had to take a rogue level to take advantage of them; I wish I didn't, but I feel it's important to survive in combat while using healing kits on people without access to invisibility or sanctuary. Shapeshift spells. These seems purely for RP. I'm not sure why a druid would want to shapeshift into a werewolf or werecat, but regardless, its stats were poor, even buffed, compared to a fighter of equal level. 

Bolded spells: I put these in bold, because they highlight what I said earlier about synergy within the class. Nature's Favor is an extremely good spell; and it's one that scales into higher levels fine. However, after level 6 spells, druids run out of animal friends to buff. Their companions remain around dire wolf strength, and while dire tigers can be buffed very well; I'm sure their AC and AB(immunities, resists, SR, attacks per round, saves) will pale in comparion to higher level summons. 

Spikes is a powerful spell, but I almost feel punished as a player who didn't chose a tall legged race, because it only affects clubs and quarterstaves. I can never take use of it, unless I reroll human. One weapon is unavailable, and the other uses strength modifier. The spell seems to be a staple for druids to make them competitive to melee clerics or fighter types while buffed and maybe after dispelled, but it has a strange race restriction, and I don't think I've ever seen a martial character make use of clubs or quarterstaves, so I don't think it's a completely altruistic spell.

Languor, as mentioned, is one of druids many spells that function on disabling enemies. Since we're not including Druid's AoE spells(grease and stonehold especially), spells like Languor seem more important for utility. But it's likely they won't see play due to immunities on bosses. If there's one troublesome spawn that spams KD with high AB, then it could be great! But I don't know if those things exist without lots of buffs, deathward, shadowshield, or construct/ undead. 

Overall, much of the druid's spellbook seems to be a placeholder waiting on a fix or untouched because of a lack of druidic presence on the server. They are punished by unfunctioning spells that druids have always relied on to be relevant in combat and a lack of spell variety and slots. This makes caster druids inferior in damage to wizards(not a terrible thing, but the comparison tilts me a bit) and utility to clerics(largely the same buffs but far less spell slots/ prayers and the like). Generally the class fantasy(I'm sorry WoW-fans) is wizards damage the battlefield, clerics aid the party in doing their jobs better and fix mistakes, and druids control the battlefield. Right now, druids lack any identity as a caster, seem to be race-restricted from their best melee buff, and shapeshifting in general is a poor alternative for going melee unless you need a specific immunity against a boss while you both fish for natural 20s.

What can be done? Well, lots could be changed. But I'd like some input from people who are much smarter than me about these things. I'm playing a 6 strength caster druid who almost solely relies on her bear with nature's fury and a spot casted spell resistance in case a caster pops up. I have a gut wrenching feeling that's not going to be viable later on since, both, parties tend to frown on summons, and I won't be able to beef up higher level summons the same way. So, I'm not using all of my charater's tools. I can't see Frana turning into a bear, really, or a water elemental. But some characters love shapeshifting!

My little suggestions are changing higher levels summons to include the same tag that checks for alignment on planar summons. Give Druid a specific tag that lets them summon an stronger animal type that lets them take advantage of their druid specific buff to make up for the fact their missing their companion in combat at higher levels.  

Maybe let Spikes target a mace or a sickle or another "small" weapon that smaller races could make use of. 

In general, let's not be afraid to change spells to make them more useful on the server or delete spells that aren't functioning. Right now, it's definitely trying to cram a square peg into a round hole with druidic spells, but it doesn't have to be. The spellbook sort of reminds me of having a giant spice rack that signifies an endless amount of flavor and unique combinations but only knowing how to make mac'n'cheese. Haha. Maybe it's best to just leave the salt and pepper by the stove.

Ok, thanks for the insight.

Mmm, that's alright then. For more caster oriented druids then, would it be possible to buff their companions? Nature's favor seems really powerful, but I think it caps out on a dire tiger summon(summons seem really powerful here), but a druid's companion would be an easier way to scale a "summon" without adding more. Or maybe more high level animal based summons instead of all the elemental options at higher levels?

Otherwise, it seems as the OP suggested in that many of their "reliable" spells are gimmicky death spells (drown, finger, slay, this uh, bubble of death thing, whirlwind, etc). Then again, it may be my fault as a character builder. Druids are pretty strong as melee, and I chose to forgo that possibility and go full caster(6str gnome =().

Oh, well, I'm not sure. I've ran goblins in Hullack a bunch in the passed few days, and I tried using all those spells, and after maybe several dozen spammy tries, I think I got one entanglement roll. It's ok, though, I just did not know or understand. Murderous Mist gives concealment to enemies and allies as the spell says, but it does not roll for damage initially, per round, or for blind.

I was just curious because many of druids best spells/ high level spells are per/round, so I wanted to know if I should change my conjuration focuses to something else, maybe.

I noticed entangle, grease, and murderous mist don't function. Does this mean that stonehold and storm of vengence are also not functioning? I don't see my druid shape shifting and the like, but it may be nice if their spellbook could gain some beef if their signature spells aren't able to function. But I don't know exactly what their spells are or if the ones in the player help section is up to date.