Bows and Buff Spells

[Nokteronoth]

Hay. So. Bit of a suggestion! As the title says, about bows and buff spells.

At the moment, enchantment doesn't work on bows. Neither does elemental weapon, Blade Thirst, Holy Sword, Bramble, et cetera. A lot of those are for a reason. (I mean, it's in the name of one of them, though it can be used on any melee weapon.)

My suggestion is thus: Let Greater Magic Weapon and/or Elemental Weapon be cast on bows. 

Why? Bows are rather under-utilized on the server by what I've seen. A lot of them get Mighty +5, though that's easy to hit with a Mass STR + normal STR spell. You can't dual wield them. You don't get nifty on-hit effects for most like the netherese or vampiric weapons. (I haven't seen any beyond the normal +2d4-2d6 unlimited ammo. Maybe it's on higher tier/more rare weapons than I've ever seen, but by what I've seen of the tier 4 stuff, seems to mostly be variations of the Semberholm longbow.)

I have seen 3 characters use bows with any regularity and 2 of them were mages. I might just be missing things, but a lot of people like to stick to spells or just go in melee, it seems. 

What might the two spells do? A little more damage. Maybe enough to get one or two people to stick back and fling arrows, if there are already a lot of people with swords in a party. Make AA, ranged Rangers, and wizards who have run out of spells (Or who aren't tanky) a little better to keep around. A little love for those people who just want to reach out and touch someone.

Puts bows a little more on-par with melee weapons. With melee, a character has several options. With ranged...you have 2 types of bows, 2 types of crossbows, darts, throwing axes, or a sling. (Which could also be improved with this idea and might make for interesting specialists.) And without being able to spell them, they will pretty much always be worse than their melee counterparts. 

Little bit of a confusing post, might clean it up later. 

~BR

[Vincent07]

You can cast GMW and Keen on bows.  But you have to have it in-hand and target yourself, not the weapon.

Can't do anything with elemental weapon and bows, as damage increases have to go on the arrows.

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 20, 2015 21:47:12 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

You can cast GMW and Keen on bows.  But you have to have it in-hand and target yourself, not the weapon.

Can't do anything with elemental weapon and bows, as damage increases have to go on the arrows.

Though I believe there's a scripting solution to this, an alternate solution would simply be to improve bows server-wide. The combination of the inability to EMW them along with a strong bias of prestige class abilities towards casters and melee fighters leaves them at a rather undesirable disadvantage at the moment.

[Deleted]

There are more bows in loot than almost any other weapon type in the higher level tiers. They are rather powerful, and don't need improving.

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 20, 2015 22:19:06 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

There are more bows in loot than almost any other weapon type in the higher level tiers. They are rather powerful, and don't need improving.

I find the vast majority of them rather underwhelming compared to a buffed melee weapon, and I think the lack of bow-using characters is a testament to that. That said, I think the problem is more prevalent at the sub-ensorcelled tiers.

As a quick mathematical exploration of the problem...

Decent longsword (because 1d8 base) at ensorcelled tier--Blade of the Heavens, 1d8 base, 1d6 sonic, 1d4 divine, 4 massive crits, +4 from enhancement

Ice Dragon Bow: 1d8 base, 1d6 cold (unlimited), +5 mighty, 2d8 massive crits -- I picked this because it is very much in line with several other ensorcelled bows I have seen.

Now throw in several factors:

1) elemental weapon on the longsword
2) the longsword's str bonus damage isn't limited by mighty, whereas a bow's is (and it's easy enough to get +6 on even base 10 str characters, which would exceed the ensorcelled bow listed above)
3) bows do not get a damage bonus from enhancement, melee weapons do -- and most of the bows I've seen only have a +1 or so along with whatever unlimited ammo bonus

But for the sake of being nice to bows in this argument, let's pretend the elemental damage bonus is 2d6 rather than 1d6, as I believe I have seen such at ensorcelled or the next tier, as well as +1 on the unlimited arrows. We're also going to be nice to the bow and assume a buffed base 10 str character is using both the longsword and the bow, rather than 14 or higher as would be common. We'll be even nicer and assume that the elemental weapon is only being cast by a 10th level caster (1d4+5 dmg), as per the scrolls you can buy, as opposed to say a 20th level caster (which would give the full 1d4 + 10).

Longsword damage calculation = 1d8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 4 + 6 (str) + (1d4+5) -- min 19, max 37, avg 28
Bow damage calculation = 1d8 + 2d6 + 1 (unl. arrows) + 5 (mighty) -- min 9, max 26, avg 17.5
For lulz, longsword without EMW = 1d8 + 1d4 + 1d6 + 4 + 6 (str) -- min  13, max 28, avg 20.5

To review:

I was being generous to the bow in several ways from the outset, as detailed above.
Longsword already beats out the bow without elemental weapon, and demolishes it with EMW.
The EMW was only scroll level.
We were assuming a 10 base strength character using a longsword (unlikely).
Feel free to throw another +5 to all of the buffed longsword numbers above for full EMW, and and another +2-5 from strength for a typical melee fighter. These are bonuses melee weapons can easily attain that bow has 0 way to account for.

Now in terms of tactical options, bow allows you to engage (potentially) more safely from a range, or without introducing more clutter, but a 1 handed melee weapon introduces benefits of its own in the form of a shield--the shield not only provides extra AC, but often other statistical benefits. A two handed melee weapon benefits from 1.5x str bonus, and a 2 handed user will almost certainly be rocking more than the 10 base str assumed above.

In addition, the primary melee enhancing prestige class (WM) absolutely blows the primary bow enhancing class (AA) out of the water in terms of increased damage potential. Not that bow wasn't already at a disadvantage. All of the above is even worse when you compare sub-ensorcelled gear.

I congratulate you if you have an absolutely god-tier bow that can keep up with an equal tiered melee weapon statistically, but the fact is, bow needs help, as evidenced in the (utter lack of) player base and a simple numerical breakdown.

Edit: Just to have a little more fun with this, I'll give you numbers for an easily attainable longsword character (level 16, ecl 0) that has the same longsword with level 20 EMW cast on it vs a completely ridiculous fantasy bow the likes of which I've never seen on CD:

Character str: 32 (16 at lvl 1, +4 from levels, +6 from buffs) -- +11 modifier
Longbow stats: +2d10 elemental damage and +3 unlimited arrows, +6 mighty

Longsword calc: 1d8 + 1d6 + 1d4 + 4 + 11 + (1d4+10) = min 29, max 47, avg 38
Longbow calc: 1d8 + 2d10 + 3 + 6 = min 12, max 37, avg 24.5

Yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaa....

[suddenperihelion]

Damage bonuses on bows is just a 2da switch. Doesn't even take scripting to enable it.

[Vincent07]

There are some -very- nice bows in loot.  

As I said before, you CAN put GMW and Keen on bows now.  But you have to target it on the person holding the weapon.

I'm not increasing base Bow damage.  That would make an area like the epic Gnolls, which is already lousy with archers, impossible.

What I am doing:  With the hak update, Arcane Archer will be loosing its racial restriction and gaining another perk or two.  So roll up an AA once I do that.  

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 20, 2015 23:59:02 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

There are some -very- nice bows in loot.  

As I said before, you CAN put GMW and Keen on bows now.  But you have to target it on the person holding the weapon.

I'm not increasing base Bow damage.  That would make an area like the epic Gnolls, which is already lousy with archers, impossible.

What I am doing:  With the hak update, Arcane Archer will be loosing its racial restriction and gaining another perk or two.  So roll up an AA once I do that.  

Problem is, GMW doesn't add to damage, EMW doesn't add at all, and bows are already typically disadvantaged to melee weapons from the get go. Even with a buffed AA, they fall very sadly behind. See the above number crunching for details. Even with the nice bows in the loot tables, and a completely imaginary overpowered one I made up, it still loses to a very ordinary melee character using a very ordinary ensorcelled longsword.

The easiest solution is the aforementioned 2da edit that will make longbows EMWable (I think the same or a similar 2da edit makes the GMW/enhancement damage bonus apply).

[Edge]

I imagine the low amount of bow-using characters is less due to the lackluster traits of current bows in loot (because, again, our longbow selection is pretty awesome; shortbows not so much admittedly, we're working on that) but rather the vast array of awesome melee weapons is larger, and as Vincent said the race limitation on AA, which is soon to go away.

The X Dragon Bows are decent, but they're kind of midrange as far as power goes for their respective tiers. Wheras the Blade of the Heavens is one of if not the best longsword you can get at purple tier.

[Valimar Dragonbane]

Throwing in my two coppers worth here as to why bows aren't used as much: AoO.  Once enemies get within melee range, using bows is simply not viable.  The only time you can really make use of bows in combat is on slow moving opponents, since so many of them spawn fairly close to the party.  This is purely from my own experience and standpoint, mind.  I could be doing something wrong in terms of combat, but there ya go.

[valiea987]

AA Archers get some really insane AB if I remember right. With the racial restriction removed, is the "elvish art" background still to be associated with it? So like a human who becomes an AA, need they some reason why they learned an elven style? Just a RP based question from someone now thinking of making an AA when the restriction is removed!

[Deleted]

Yeah, if you're using the dragon bows for comparison, you haven't seen the better bows of their tiers.  

[Edge]

May 21, 2015 8:55:54 GMT -5 valiea987 said:

AA Archers get some really insane AB if I remember right. With the racial restriction removed, is the "elvish art" background still to be associated with it? So like a human who becomes an AA, need they some reason why they learned an elven style? Just a RP based question from someone now thinking of making an AA when the restriction is removed!

That part of the lore will either be removed or downplayed, to where it was a style that may have started among the elves but has since moved to other cultures. All it will require now is the arcane and martial training and the willingness and ability to combine the two.

Likewise for the class formerly known as Dwarven Defender (new name not quite yet decided).

[Edge]

May 21, 2015 8:44:12 GMT -5 Valimar Dragonbane said:

Throwing in my two coppers worth here as to why bows aren't used as much: AoO.  Once enemies get within melee range, using bows is simply not viable.  The only time you can really make use of bows in combat is on slow moving opponents, since so many of them spawn fairly close to the party.  This is purely from my own experience and standpoint, mind.  I could be doing something wrong in terms of combat, but there ya go.

This is another big part, yes. If you're not used to traveling with a group and everyone having a good understanding of personal positioning, it can be very easy to get the party swarmed and to have ranged characters and casters at a disadvantage due to enemies being too close.

To play an archer you really need to be regularly traveling with someone who can keep enemies in melee while you plink away, and unlike a full caster you can't just summon up a (level-appropriate) tank to do that job for you.

It's less of an issue among players in groups that are very practiced or very good at working together, but it all revolves around the same basic concept - being willing to let the party spread out a little. Scouts in front, fightery types (heavy armor martial classes, melee clerics, Dragon Disciples, etc. etc. etc.) in the middle giving them space to work, and squishy or ranged types (arcane casters, archers, non-scout rogues, etc.) in the back, where when things spawn they've got some distance between them and the enemy. The second trick is for those groups in the back to wait and let the first two groups engage first, holding the enemy's attentions, THEN join the fight. If an archer starts shooting as soon as enemies spawn, before the meleers can get their attention, quite often the enemy AI will decide to charge the archer and ignore the fighters.

[Autumn]

May 21, 2015 11:05:50 GMT -5 Edge said:

May 21, 2015 8:55:54 GMT -5 valiea987 said:

That part of the lore will either be removed or downplayed, to where it was a style that may have started among the elves but has since moved to other cultures. All it will require now is the arcane and martial training and the willingness and ability to combine the two.

Likewise for the class formerly known as Dwarven Defender (new name not quite yet decided).

Might I suggest Drunken Dervish for the new name?