Barbarians Still Need Help (An Analysis)

[Edge]

Pathfinder actually has a class that does just that - the Skald, a sort of Bard/Barbarian combo class. Their main class ability is the ability to inspire allies to share their Rage.

[Deleted]

Problem:  Rage, as a mechanic, is supposed to prevent spellcasting.  You're too enraged/distracted to focus on specific tasks such as casting a spell.

Truthfully, I see zero need to buff barbarians further.

[spamtastic1979]

I think in all of the analysis done here.. you forgot 2 very important things that Barbs get at 20th level that Fighters do not, an undispellable immunity to mind spells and death magic.

[trylobyte]

Jul 29, 2016 12:13:31 GMT -5 spamtastic1979 said:

I think in all of the analysis done here.. you forgot 2 very important things that Barbs get at 20th level that Fighters do not, an undispellable immunity to mind spells and death magic.

By the time you're level 20 you're generally less worried about being hit with death magic and mind spells than you are about being hit with large numbers of normal attacks.  If you're in gnolls or frost giants and you get dispelled it's not mind or death spells that kill you, it's the gnolls' huge numbers and high attack speed or the giants' 150+ damage critical hits.  In that sense the AC penalty from raging actually hurts you because it makes you more vulnerable to these while making you immune to things you're not as likely to run into.  Death immunity only really comes in handy fighting the balors in gnolls (which have vorpal swords; the Implosions will still get you if you 1 them as they ignore death immunity) and the lich bosses (which tend to open with a Wail).  Even with liches it's not terribly useful - They have to dispel you first (they usually forget, or target someone else) and even then they're targeting your probably-highest save (since all the fightery classes have Fort as a high save, and a raging Barb gets even more) so you're only worried about a 1.  As for mind spells, dragons are the biggest things that I remember which both have mind-affecting spells (Fear auras) and attempt to dispel, and melee fighters don't generally try to solo those (Varyxia has a ton of knockdown spam you can't easily avoid, Umbra just isn't worth it, the others are in more obscure dungeons people don't generally run).  Past that you're not likely to run into much in the way of mind-affecting magic.  Even with that said though, the mind spell immunity coming at level 10 does make it very useful for getting to epic levels, as mind spells and Fear auras are significantly more common in the popular mid-level dungeons.  Of course, at those levels, you're also not likely to get dispelled anyway.  The Ogre Redoubt is the place I can see that mind immunity coming in the most useful.

They look great on paper but are actually very niche benefits in CD's present environment.  I don't consider it worth the opportunity cost of giving up the ability to multiclass into something like Spellsword or Weaponmaster - A weaponmaster deals more damage more consistently to anything that isn't undead or golems and a Spellsword is more generally useful in most roles.

[Garage Trashcan]

Yo dawg, I hear you liek 1337 d33ps.

--Sincerely, Barbarian/Blackguard

But no, really, the most I could see Barbs needing is maybe a feat that removes the AC penalty on rage, and even that's bloody strong (a feat for 2 AC). There are plenty of successful barbarians in the server's history, but the class fantasy for Barb is still there, and the buffs they got in Vince's update made me giddy. I don't care that I'm not as good as a fighter. Get yourself a pocket cleric and go to town with all their damage buffs. Wreck shit.

[allatum]

Dex based barbarians can be a thing here, and in medium/light/no armor they'd only suffer a crippling +2 AC instead of +4? It's not the same as having a duelist build but there's still compensation for low damage with Rage.

[Vincent07]

Barbarians here do gain an AC boost if they do not use heavy armor or tower shields.  IT's +2 at lvl 5 and +4 at 10th.   So dex barbs can work, as can more lightly armored str barbs.

I'm disinclined to make Rage a party buff, as tbh that doesn't make a lot of sense.

[spamtastic1979]

Does that mean they can use Large shields and still get the bonus?

[Nokteronoth]

Yes, @spamtastic.

We tested it when Eyla was still a barbarian. I even had an alternate gear set up for when she got post-20 - You, mathematically, end up with the same AC going mithril and large shield compared to adamantine and tower at higher barbarian level.

~BR

[trylobyte]

Oh, so THAT'S why tower shields don't help my AC.  I've been wondering about that for MONTHS.

Edit:  I've confirmed this works with mithril full plate, so this is definitely a buff for armor, too.

Goodbye heavy armor proficiency.  Thanks for telling me about this buff!  I must've missed the original thread.

[Fire Wraith]

Just to note:
Mithril + Large shield = 8 + 2 = 10 base
Adamantine Plate + Tower Shield = 11 + 3 = 14 base

The +4 AC makes up for this, but there's ALSO a 2 point differential in the dex bonus, so as long as you have at least 16 dex (or buff to that number, not hard to do generally, at least in a group), then you're actually 2 AC ahead.

[Vincent07]

Jul 31, 2016 13:46:03 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Oh, so THAT'S why tower shields don't help my AC.  I've been wondering about that for MONTHS.

Edit:  I've confirmed this works with mithril full plate, so this is definitely a buff for armor, too.

Goodbye heavy armor proficiency.  Thanks for telling me about this buff!  I must've missed the original thread.

Yes, I did this intentionally so that Barbarians did not feel like they were forced into taking heavy armor prof just to have AC equal to a similarly geared Fighter.

[Garage Trashcan]

Yup, and it was wonderful <3

[ironmaid]

Hilda is very happy with how things work. At level 12, in medium armour and a large shield, not getting caught flat-footed when surrounded by enemies or sneaks, she can go toe to toe with a lot of the big creatures including the Ogres in the Ogre Redoubt. As long as she doesn't do anything stupid.  ^.^
And in a group, all those wards make her temporarily invincible so she can start cleaving away with her greataxe without too much worry.
I like the new rage ability. Too bad it doesn't last very long (I think) and wonder if there is anything that can be done with the intimidate skill to lengthen duration or increase potency... or tie it to like an aura of fear around her when she goes into rage?

[Nokteronoth]

ironmaid There's a feat for that called Terrifying Rage that you can take in epic levels, with at least 18 levels of Barbarian. (IE, a 18 barb 2 rogue can take it.)

Rage is based on your CON mod, far as duration goes, so if you want a longer rage, buff up your CON. Even then it doesn't last particularly long, but it isn't supposed to. You don't have fatigue penalties afterward like you might in P&P.

~BR