Some (Relatively) Brief Thoughts From an Ex-New Player

[trylobyte]

I think a lot of the problem with Aelie specifically is her build.  She doesn't have a lot of steps between 'Buff and hide' and 'Release the dragons!' because of her build and her spell selection.  She's very narrowly focused as an acknowledgement of her roleplay, since she's essentially a specialist wizard in sorcerer form.  Most of her offensive spells all sort've accomplish the same purpose, but in different ways and with different roles and purposes, and the ones that remain tend to be unsuitable for use in a party (People hate getting Reverse Gravity'd so much I took it off my hotbar).  People summon their bears and elementals and planar things before battle?  Aelie does too.  Just so happens hers is a dragon that can solo any non-epic dungeon.  That's just how she is, and it's a flaw that I'm well aware of.  I"m just not sure how to fix it without rewriting her character or separating gameplay and story further than I'd like.  And the OOC politics issue with the Violet Flame turned me completely off working with that organization, as much as I'd like to, because as much as FW says it's okay, I'm the one that has to deal with all the hurt feelings and trampled toes of the people who always seem to come back just in time to see me threatening their position.  It ruins my motivation to carry on with it.

This, however, is not the thread for discussing my problem with my character.  

[aceheart]

Jun 20, 2014 4:31:22 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

The situation becomes even more complicated (and funny) when it is not a two-poled situation, like "we goods vs. them evils", but there are 3, 4, 5 or even more different factions around with different agendas, goals, potentials for allying and betraying, etc. When an epic level character (or characters) have to watch multiple potential angles of attack against them they should be even more careful about taking direct action and exposing themselves. Their lives become even more of one of constant vigil, gathering information, building up power, and saving their strenght, keeping themselves ready all the time. If their enemy shows a weakness, but they do not have the strenght to muster to use the opportunity than it can go and next time it could be opposite way. They become more of tacticians and chessmasters, moving and directing their pawns and allies and only taking active role when absolute neccessary. Based on the background descriped for Forgotten Realms this is the exact situation we are having there.

Independent, non-allied epic characters can't escape this game, either. The other factions will try to recruit them to bolster their power, or eliminate them so they don't bolster their enemies' power. Every powerful character become the victim of his own power sooner or later, without exception.

I think if these aspects would be introduced to the server the players of epic level characters could feel themselves more useful. Admittedly this means more forum RP, with some parts taking place in-engine, like sending the lower lvl chars to missions, than later debriefing, handling an important negotiation with a potential epic level ally, etc. But nevertheless active adventuring is much less for epic level characters as their involvement becomes more social, working from the backgrounds. I do not think anything could be done against this.

Don't forget that in this topic you're not hearing much from those who aren't currently having any crisis of existence/believability over their epic PCs. It's not that grim.

[Mystic Warden]

I stand corrected!

[The Red Mage]

Mine is doing OK. But I've been backseat driving on him for a while now. I guess it's best to add a little at a time than try and go all out and reign it back in later.

[trylobyte]

Jun 20, 2014 7:58:39 GMT -5 Mystic Warden said:

I stand corrected!

The pattern I've noticed tends to be the more active the epic character's player is on that character the less useful they feel, probably because they're spending more time on a character that generally has less to do.  Not really that surprising, I suppose!

I'm thinking this might need to be split into two different threads.  It's gone rather askew of its original purpose.

[Balkoth]

Jun 20, 2014 13:01:38 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

I'm thinking this might need to be split into two different threads.  It's gone rather askew of its original purpose.

Wow, this exploded.  More later, but wanted to quickly comment on this.  I'm honestly not sure it's gone rather askew -- I'm thinking it might more be two sides of the same coin.

On one hand, new players (and lower levels in general perhaps) are frustrated because they feel useless and babysat with no way to effectively change that situation in a reasonable time frame.

On the other hand, old players (and higher levels in general) are frustrated because they're too powerful for things short of world ending plots.

Kind of sounds like, for this server at least, the best times are between, say, level 11 and level 17.  Below that you're in really weak gear/low level and cannot contribute effectively and past that you start into demi-god territory.

Too late to change it now, I think, but it does make me wonder what it would be like if the server was capped at 17ish and level gain was rapid until 11ish and then tapered off.  Means you never have to worry about "losing" a character due to them being too high level to participate in things reasonably.

[trylobyte]

It effectively used to be that way back when I started.  It wasn't hard capped, but epics were so rare that I could have named all four of them (Evelyn, Kori, Kegan, Nevar).  What happened was...  people began complaining about how long it took to level.  Sometimes there were legitimate complaints, but eventually everyone wanted everything to be even since they didn't want to get left behind, one thing led to another, and now it takes 2-3 months to get what used to take a year or more.

[Fire Wraith]

Jun 20, 2014 14:52:37 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

It effectively used to be that way back when I started.  It wasn't hard capped, but epics were so rare that I could have named all four of them (Evelyn, Kori, Kegan, Nevar).  What happened was...  people began complaining about how long it took to level.

And now the thread comes full circle.

Yes, there used to be no more hunting xp at all after level 12 or so, the changeover started at 7, and there was no autoxp to allow earning points when a dm wasn't on.

[The Red Mage]

Yes, and it was extremely cliquey as well. I would spend sometimes three months playing five hours a day and not get a "fairy" then, which was a DM using a wand to give out 100xp ticks at a time. So you'd have to be real creative to try and find motivation to keep playing. Three months then = 0xp-100xp. Three months now = level 14+ easily. At least now, even if you play at odd hours or aren't involved with the main cliques, you can still progress some.

[Fire Wraith]

To be fair, that's entirely subjective.  What it meant was that being an outsider/iconoclast tended to not get you very far.  That has good and bad aspects to it.  One person's 'loner' is another person's 'not interested in roleplaying with others'.

The main downside was that people who played primarily at off-peak hours had a lot of trouble getting anything done, and the fact that the system was prone to suspicion of favoritism.  It's hard if not impossible for us to show/prove that a given player definitively deserved attention/xp/etc more than another given player.

On the other hand, the alternative that we have now has its own issues, problems, and abuses.  Is it better or worse?  Matter of opinion mostly.

[The Red Mage]

Not being involved with the main cliques of the server and being an outsider isn't subjective. It's been a negative staple on this server since forever(how many times have clique threads and concerns about not fitting in have come up?). Most of it has been unintentional, but today, for example, six of eight people logged in were part of a faction off doing their own thing. The players of the faction are all nice and inviting, but unless you break character to get RP with them for whatever reason, you're not involved at all.

How far you get(and as fast as the thread suggests) still depends majorly on what clique you're in and how much attention it is getting, just as it always has. The good aspects are subjective, but the bad aspects are not. The good aspects are that you're pretending to have integrity by not breaking character and shoehorning yourself into a position you don't belong for XP. But in the end, that doesn't matter, because you aren't rewarded by anything but a pat on your own back.

The current system is miles better than the old.

Suggestions to fix that, well, I have none. You just have to roll with it, really. You can't punish players for playing with friends or rolling characters together.

[Arya]

+2 to Red Mage.  

The only other remedy is having DMs that cater to the interest of the folks not getting attention.  Or having people roll characters for your given faction/concept/etc.  Unfortunately, the DM factor depends on the amount of active DMs, the amount of DMs allowed by the admins, etc.  But everyone can try to do something as a player while s/he can.  

Ideally, DMs will notice the initiative taken and do something about it.  I know things do not always work as ideal, though.

Sincerely,
Arya

[Fire Wraith]

Jun 21, 2014 0:56:15 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

Not being involved with the main cliques of the server and being an outsider isn't subjective. It's been a negative staple on this server since forever(how many times have clique threads and concerns about not fitting in have come up?).

It's also a distinctly negative word, generally used in the context of attacking people.  It connotes distinctly negative behavior, and brings to mind the high school/middle school personality bullshit that often lurks beneath the surface in many online communities.  It's also one I don't like seeing used when it's being tossed at people who are just having fun with friends, and actively trying to reach out to involve others.

Most of it has been unintentional, but today, for example, six of eight people logged in were part of a faction off doing their own thing. The players of the faction are all nice and inviting, but unless you break character to get RP with them for whatever reason, you're not involved at all.

Or they break character to involve yours.  What you play is a choice, and yes, in an ideal world there'd be tons of people on playing all sorts of concepts so everyone would have a consistent RP group.  Even back in the days of full server playercount though, we didn't have enough to cover everything.  I can't force people to come join a given character/group/etc, I can't force them to make characters that get along with yours.  Yes, on some level I can nudge people OOCly, but in the end it's on you to make them interested in hanging out with you.

I also can't force DMs to cater to you.  I'd love it if we had DMs spending time individually with every single player, but that's highly unrealistic.

So what can I do?  I leave it mostly to what's fun for people, because that's what we're here for.  On some level, eventually, it's up to you to make it fun/interesting for others to play with you.

How far you get(and as fast as the thread suggests) still depends majorly on what clique you're in and how much attention it is getting, just as it always has. The good aspects are subjective, but the bad aspects are not. The good aspects are that you're pretending to have integrity by not breaking character and shoehorning yourself into a position you don't belong for XP. But in the end, that doesn't matter, because you aren't rewarded by anything but a pat on your own back.

The current system is miles better than the old.

Suggestions to fix that, well, I have none. You just have to roll with it, really. You can't punish players for playing with friends or rolling characters together.

I submit that it wouldn't matter if we took all the xp away from everyone, or simply removed all outside rewards.  People would still be grouped up and having fun (well, assuming anyone bothered to play period), and others would still be complaining about being 'left out'.

[The Red Mage]

...That's just an awful argument to make and further diminishes those who feel left out(this is about new players and the new players who almost always bring this sort of thing up). I mean, really FW? Their just not interesting enough to be invited by, let's use new words then, the "collective society" of older players who are comfortable playing with one another through trust and experience?

I understand that there are very limited options to this problem, and this problem persists on many older servers, but telling new players that perhaps they have failed in making their character accessible or interesting is kind of mean spirited. It's up to the vets to bend to the ways a bit to include them.

What can you do? We have a community who is very open and welcoming to newer players and try their best to ensure that they do fit in and they do have things to do. But how far does that extend? The first day? We could offer them a spot in something when they start. Go ahead and give them a foot in somewhere, even if it's an artificial company for new players to start off. They'd immediately be introduced into a community in game right off the bat. Have the eyes and ears sign them up like a draft when they receive their guild character. Have /listpcs name players who are apart of the organization list people who are also apart of it so they can move toward players of similar interest. Just some guidance perhaps that would ease their transition into a new school.  

[Fire Wraith]

Let me try putting this in an example.

I set up a sports league, where people come play sports.  We let them pick what sport they want to have fun playing, they're not stuck with any one sport, but they have the right to pick.  Some people are playing soccer, basketball, and volleyball.  You decide you really want to be a baseball player, and only a baseball player.

When and where am I supposed to force them to come play baseball with you?  I'd certainly love if people wanted to play baseball too, and I can help make sure there's a baseball field ready to play on, with lots of fresh shiny equipment.  But I can't make them want to come play it with you - only you can do that, ultimately.

Now, that's somewhat a crude analogy, but asking others to conform to your desired playstyle is no better than asking you to conform to theirs.  If anything, it's worse, because it's asking a bunch of people to change, rather than just one.  You yourself have pointed out how friendly and inclusive people are, and that's exactly what I've seen.  People jump all over themselves trying to include and welcome new players.  I don't see the kinds of things I have on other servers, where new people are forced to jump through hoops, prove esoteric knowledge of lore, etc, to join a group.

I take this a little seriously because I've seen rampant accusations of cliques undermine and destroy lots of fun groups, and drive off many good players involved in them, in the past.  I don't like seeing it thrown around.  If there's a specific problem that isn't just "people play what they have fun playing", well, I'd like to hear it, but right now that's all I'm getting.