Half-dragon discussion

[The Red Mage]

Give them flavor bonuses instead of crazy combat bonuses, please. Maybe a bonus to appraise. Or a bonus to spellcraft instead of elemental/ spell immunity. A small spellcraft boost would give them a bonus against spells without something as broad as total spell or elemental immunity. You're essentially giving them a free piece of gear or a permanent buff which is a boon to ever present buffs which are counteracted with dispels in balancing.

[Edge]

That doesn't reflect their PnP stats, though. Half-Dragons of all types have a specific template they use, with an array of stat boosts and which always includes an immunity to the element used by their and their parent's breath weapon. Skill bonuses and such as suggested are not part of that template.

Honestly, off the top of my head I can't think of any racial template that comes with a boost to appraise or spellcraft. And it's not as if CD doesn't have enough gear to improve those particular skills available in the treasure.

It also ignores their written flavor. From Monster Manual:

Half-Dragon creatures are always more formidable than others of their kind that do not have dragon blood...

Skill bonuses, while nice, do not convey this superior physical and mental capability.

And that's not even digging up something like Savage Species or Pathfinder's Advanced Race Guide with its point-by-point race builder (which, while far from perfect - nearly everything for Humans is immensely underpriced, off the top of my head - still gives us at least a basic idea of what various racial bonuses and penalties are worth) to use to point out how large of a skill bonus would be necessary to offset something like an elemental immunity or Half-Dragon's array of stat bonuses.

Late EDIT:

Or a bonus to spellcraft instead of elemental/ spell immunity. A small spellcraft boost would give them a bonus against spells without something as broad as total spell or elemental immunity.

Not true. NWN's special coded-in Spellcraft giving bonuses against spell saves only works based on actual RANKS. Just like Tumble, you get that +1 bonus for every 5 RANKS you have in the skill. Bonuses from related ability score, equipped items, or feats do not calculate into that.

[ladybug]

Mar 8, 2015 7:18:44 GMT -5 Edge said:

Honestly, off the top of my head I can't think of any racial template that comes with a boost to appraise or spellcraft. And it's not as if CD doesn't have enough gear to improve those particular skills available in the treasure.

I can!

Greed: Dwarves gain a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks made to determine the price of non-magical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.

Core race, even! Granted, that's PF and not 3.5

But yeah, half-dragons are supposed to be powerful. It's why they get the ECL.

[Edge]

Touche, but do notice I said "racial template" rather than "race". Still, well played. That is in 3.0/3.5 as well, just without the "Greed" name.

[The Red Mage]

I'm aware of how spellcraft/ tumble operates. Since ECLs commonly require letos in processing, I'd guess one would assume they would get spellcraft letoed in. Base spellcraft gives flat ranks but also spellcraft scales with gear unlike tumble, at least, it does on other servers.

They could get barbarian changes to strength instead of actual strength bonuses which would make them potentially physically superior if they were built that way, which is how it should work. An undamaged cap on strength stacking, an elemental resistance feat, skill bonus. There are numerous ways to balance a new potential subrace without compromising overall balance integrity. Power creep is a real thing. Following racial templates to the T or as close as possible is strange since spells and other things are desperately tried to be balanced for dungeons. It may be more interesting if it were just "inspired by". There are ways, as weakly suggested above, to give subraces like a half-dragon superior mental or physical capabilities in comparsion to the standard seven without a broad stroke of a free stat and feat brush.

It's just a suggestion. Obviously I'm not kahn-ho about it, as it doesn't affect me personally.

[Edge]

Mar 8, 2015 18:23:04 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

Since ECLs commonly require letos in processing, I'd guess one would assume they would get spellcraft letoed in.

Incorrect. Racial bonuses to skills are either provided via a bonus on the skin or via adding a bonus feat that gives the appropriate bonus.

They could get barbarian changes to strength instead of actual strength bonuses which would make them potentially physically superior if they were built that way, which is how it should work. An undamaged cap on strength stacking...

So basically, do what MD did and put the ability bonuses on the skin, thereby limiting the race to lower equipment limitations. There's a reason we stopped doing it that way ten years ago. Guess what it was.

...an elemental resistance feat,...

Is not the same as immunity, which is what the race gets.

It may be more interesting if it were just "inspired by".

I disagree, and it's irrelevant, since you know, no other races are getting done that way. If we're going to go that route, why don't we go back to the good old "You can RP your race as whatever you want, but statistically you're still some base race" from the first couple of servers I played on, and do away with the headaches of LETOs, race applications, and all that other paperwork?

That was sarcasm, just in case it wasn't clear.

There are ways, as weakly suggested above, to give subraces like a half-dragon superior mental or physical capabilities in comparsion to the standard seven without a broad stroke of a free stat and feat brush.

There is a race template that does what you want. It's called Draconic. It's basically to Half-Dragon what Tiefling is to Half-Fiend. Smaller stat buffs, some natural armor, maybe a bit of elemental resistance but I'm feeling lazy and don't want to look it up. ECL +1. It's cool for what it does, and I would in no way be opposed to approving that if someone applied for it.

But it's not a Half-Dragon. And if I applied for a Half-Dragon, a Half-Dragon is what I'd want.

[The Red Mage]

You are very certain and simply incorrect about most of your assertions regarding what classes/ builds can do and how to balance them as far as I've seen.

No, that's not how barbarians function here. You can leto 5 ranks of spellcraft onto someone at anytime, as it can be a part of a racial package, similarly to the way one would leto on a feat. Especially feats that are made up to compromise what something is incapable of doing. Why not use that functioning logic to curve power creep regarding ECLs? Instead of when a new race is added, to give them the same and an additional ability, as suggested, "force immunity" is simply ridiculously powerful and further increases power creep.

It was a suggestion regarding a new potential race. Just thought. And it's relevant regardless if you disagree or agree. Imagine that!

And sorry to Twinkle. I didn't mean to hijack your thread with another classic Edge for ECLs and me against ECLs discussion(if you can call it that). I've never been opposed to people playing what they want how they want, but I personally believe balance is as integral to immersion and story telling as the race itself.

[Deleted]

Your disagreement is noted.  Admins disagree.  End of discussion.

Side note:  Gem dragons are awesome.

[onivel]

I have an old PC from the Council of Wyrms set, a box set where the PCs played full blooded dragons from hatchling on up. There were three of us who were part of the same clutch in the hatchery .. a gold.. a silver.. and me .. an amethyst dragon whose name translated to Purple Haze whose clutchmates called Phaze. In the Council of Wyrms set they also had something called a kindred... a bonded servitor. So as Phaze got a little older, he choose one which I rolled up for him. An elven ranger by the name of.... Trebor Onivel.

So long story short (too late).. I agree... gem dragons rock!

[Remmy]

Draconic race

There you go Edge. That is a race that I think would be fun to see, with an application of course, along with Tieflings and Aasimar. Maybe even modify the 2-chain feats that allow wings to give Draconic PCs something and wings.

[Edge]

Looking at the template, that'd be really easy to implement. +1 AC, skill bonuses, and save bonuses on skin, stat adjustments, typical +1 ECL feat. Just never gotten anyone requesting it.

[Calabask]

So who shall be the first to roll a lizard wizard? Though, I guess I already have one. <.<

[Remmy]

We have a couple already, I think. At least one, other than yourself.

[Valimar Dragonbane]

On past servers, I've done something similar without applying any sort of template to it.  Sorta neat.

[Edge]

As have I, especially on the very first server I played, where we didn't have LETO or anything similar, and I wouldn't have known up from down anyway because back then my knowledge of both D&D in general and FR specifically was next to nil. If you wanted to play something unusual, you did your best with basic appearances, helmets and clothing, and such like to mimic it, and ignored the stats.

CD has setups for this sort of thing in place, however, between the application system, LETO, and our scripted-in racial feats and abilities, and even for the ones we don't have scripted in, most things can be fudged into a semblance of the proper statistics. So there's no need for that more kludged method.