Players and the Purple Dragons (and War Wizards)

[Voice of Kerensky]

Hello!

So as some of you may know, and at least just as many may not, I've been nominally running the player military faction via Jae for quite a while now. Likewise, and almost all of you have probably seen this, said faction is more or less dead (part of which is no doubt the fault of my activity at points, or the lack thereof).

Now, I'd like to get a little server history out of the way as many of you may not be aware of these things. It's important to know what sort of role the PDs/WWs have in Arabel (as it is the crux of the server) and on the server in general.

In regards to role, the short answer is: Nothing! The Purple Dragons have been entirely "politically" removed from Arabel: garrison, army base, etc. There are OOC factors in this as well; without dredging through server history too much, it comes down to past players with characters of PD status getting way too carried away with the canon law enforcement status of Cormyr's military arm and necessitating a need to remove them as a faction of any control in the server's central hub.

What I'd really like to find out is, well... what would you like for the player faction of the military to do?

Do you want such a faction to exist at all?

Do you have any interest in involvement? If there were an active PD/WW faction, how would it entertain you to be involved in it?

I've got my own plans via Jae, of course, and things that I would like to see the faction do, roles I would like them to fill. But ultimately, this doesn't really mean anything if there's simply no interest in it, for one reason or another.

There are some other questions that come up regarding the faction as well. It is, ultimately, a canon faction, and a rather organized one as a military arm. There are set ranks, roles, and service branches, if you will. These are things that can, of course, be bent and shaped at least within some bounds to our means and needs. After all, we're talking about a faction of player characters, and this involves individuals well beyond the norm in power, wealth, and influence than your common rank-and-file soldier--and beyond that of many commissioned NPCs, for that matter.

There are certainly those among you that don't have much knowledge of the setting or the particulars of Cormyr's military, so I would like to draw attention to the closest canon parallel for adventurers in the military, which is the Royal Corps of Monster Hunters. This is an organization of elite warriors (numbering 100 total, canonically) that go out and handle the truly nasty business within (and sometimes without) Corymr. Ogres, giants, maybe a dragon? Why risk losing potentially hundreds of typical rank and file when you can send the special forces after them? That's what these guys are for.

That's also what the "old" player faction was based on as well; specifically, it was a special "branch" of the RCMH comprised of adventurer-recruits. If you've ever seen the fort of Thundarlun and the barracks there, that's home base. So there's certainly background and basis for using the RCMH either as an analogue or as the branch of service itself--the player faction can be anything from a branch to the RCMH. I've certainly considered that as a possibility; with all the crap that's gone down in Cormyr in the last few years, it's very possible the small canon RCMH could have been wiped out and the Crown decided to draw from adventurers (and the few remaining/surviving adventurer-recruits) to form the new RCMH, as you simply don't come across people of that power level too often--adventurers are your best draw in that regard. At least, the good ones are. That also gives a rather good basis for having a setting-established organization that's already a bit "abnormal" in regards to Cormyr's military, and we can further shape it to our needs/wants.

Anyhow, though, pardon the extrapolation--I'm very curious to see what you guys think! Hesitations, interests, ideas, thoughts, rants, and random cat pictures are all welcome!

[Edge]

The RCMH is pretty much dead-on what I've considered the best way to handle PC PDs and WWs.

Lone PDs/WWs are basically Knights Errant - doing the work for the kingdom/in the name of the kingdom outside the more rigid structure of the active military. The RCMH is, by extension, a collective semi-self-policing organization of those Knights Errant, tasked with (primarily) dealing with exceptional and/or abnormal threats to the kingdom outside the typical expectations of the military and of local militia forces such as Arabel's Watch or similar forces in other locations.

To respond to one thing, though:

I've certainly considered that as a possibility; with all the crap that's gone down in Cormyr in the last few years, it's very possible the small canon RCMH could have been wiped out and the Crown decided to draw from adventurers (and the few remaining/surviving adventurer-recruits) to form the new RCMH, as you simply don't come across people of that power level too often--adventurers are your best draw in that regard. At least, the good ones are. That also gives a rather good basis for having a setting-established organization that's already a bit "abnormal" in regards to Cormyr's military, and we can further shape it to our needs/wants.

While this sort of thing is exactly the direction I want to see the faction taken in, following in the footsteps of the canon RCMH, I do want to clear up what some might take as an interpretation of this comment. The RCMH, while loosely governed and certainly not as strictly regulated as active military, does still answer to the military commanders and the Crown.

All this means is that while there may be a hierarchy of PCs as there have been in the past, there is still an NPC commander run by the staff that calls the shots on a larger, long-term scale. So while the staff will certainly not attempt to police the faction's every move, the orders are coming down from an NPC somewhere, rather than having a PC in full command. This is standard procedure with all factions (as opposed to player-operated guilds, which also have less canonical limitations but wield less influence and have no NPC aid or backing under most circumstances).

Otherwise yeah, that looks like a good route to go. Carry on =)

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 29, 2015 13:49:19 GMT -5 Edge said:

The RCMH is pretty much dead-on what I've considered the best way to handle PC PDs and WWs.

Lone PDs/WWs are basically Knights Errant - doing the work for the kingdom/in the name of the kingdom outside the more rigid structure of the active military. The RCMH is, by extension, a collective semi-self-policing organization of those Knights Errant, tasked with (primarily) dealing with exceptional and/or abnormal threats to the kingdom outside the typical expectations of the military and of local militia forces such as Arabel's Watch or similar forces in other locations.

To respond to one thing, though:

I've certainly considered that as a possibility; with all the crap that's gone down in Cormyr in the last few years, it's very possible the small canon RCMH could have been wiped out and the Crown decided to draw from adventurers (and the few remaining/surviving adventurer-recruits) to form the new RCMH, as you simply don't come across people of that power level too often--adventurers are your best draw in that regard. At least, the good ones are. That also gives a rather good basis for having a setting-established organization that's already a bit "abnormal" in regards to Cormyr's military, and we can further shape it to our needs/wants.

While this sort of thing is exactly the direction I want to see the faction taken in, following in the footsteps of the canon RCMH, I do want to clear up what some might take as an interpretation of this comment. The RCMH, while loosely governed and certainly not as strictly regulated as active military, does still answer to the military commanders and the Crown.

All this means is that while there may be a hierarchy of PCs as there have been in the past, there is still an NPC commander run by the staff that calls the shots on a larger, long-term scale. So while the staff will certainly not attempt to police the faction's every move, the orders are coming down from an NPC somewhere, rather than having a PC in full command. This is standard procedure with all factions (as opposed to player-operated guilds, which also have less canonical limitations but wield less influence and have no NPC aid or backing under most circumstances).

Otherwise yeah, that looks like a good route to go. Carry on =)

Was my thought as well, though you've likely already seen my posts in the military faction thread at some point and request for guidance/DM oversight. For a canon faction, I feel some sort of approval is just -needed- at some times, particularly for things like creating new officers, as this is not an easy process within Cormyr's military.

Also, it's good to have an "official" up above that can appoint either a temporary or new permanent commander should someone like yours truly disappear!

Thanks for the reply on this.

[Voice of Kerensky]

For a little additional reading, the following is based upon brainstorming after the post from Edge. Any ideas, comments, questions, or cat pictures are still very welcome!

Regarding simply making the player faction the RCMH, rather than a splinter group of it or another group altogether, I think this a fantastic idea. It solves numerous IC and OOC problems, and the RCMH has a very "adventurer" feel to it from the get-go.

The ideal way to do this, I think, is to find a way to dissolve the "old" leadership of the RCMH and clear out it for fresh blood and a reform. The easy solution here would be to have some disaster befall the Corps--certainly possible given the troubles in Cormyr in the last few years. This would make way for a reform, which has good IC justification. For details, here is the primary document we used for information on Cormyr's military (though some things have changed over the years):

www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/cormyrforcesa.htm

And here is an excerpt from the relevant section:

This is a special kadrath-sized unit that is stationed more or less permanently in Thunderstone just across the Thunderflow from the Hullack Forest. This unit is outfitted as heavy infantry, although each member of the unit also knows how to ride, and is composed as the toughest, most hard-bitten veterans in the Purple Dragons. Their function is to fight not armies, bandits, or raiders, but monsters of all sorts. They specialize in the tactics of fighting the wide variety of fell beasts that might be found in Cormyr (and are found in the confines of the Hullack Forest and the nearby Vast Swamp).

This unit is considered so special and elite — composed of the toughest and most experienced veterans — that an oversword is given command of it. None of the men in this unit are of less than first sword rank, as it takes that much experience to prove oneself worthy of being assigned to the Monster Hunters. Also unlike regular units, the members of this corps come from all parts of Cormyr and even include some immigrants from outside the Forest Kingdom who have proven themselves. Although the regulation size of an infantry kadrath is 92 men, it is historically common for commanders of this elite unit to pad their numbers somewhat, so that a full force can be fielded even when some are on the sick or injured list. The actual number of men in the Monster Hunters thus fluctuates, and is currently about a hundred men.

Oversword Faril Laheralson is the current commander of the Royal Corps of Monster Hunters as of the Year of the Gauntlet (1369 DR). It is unfortunate to say that Oversword Laheralson has let the elite status of the unit go to the heads of both himself and his men. The Monster Hunters think very highly of themselves to the man, to the point of thinking of themselves as above normal military discipline. They are the self-appointed law in the town, and mostly do as they wish. They generally dominate the residents of Thunderstone, although they don't quite tyrannize them, and they tend to get a little wild and rowdy in their conduct. The townsfolk have complained, but the King turns a blind eye to the conduct of the men because they are very effective at battling the monsters that lair in the Hullack Forest and keep them contained. So long as the townsfolk are thus protected and the Monster Hunters do not sink to actual criminal acts, it is likely that the King will continue to tolerate the behavior of Oversword Laheralson and his men and the townsfolk will do little more than complain.

So the RCMH and its leadership have something of a less than stellar political rap, but politically an Oversword/Lord is in charge of it, making it politically difficult to reform (especially since they essentially control a town), and they're too important to interfere with (too large to fail, anyone?).

On the other hand, if disaster befalls the Corps--say the Oversword and his senior staff are killed, well then, you've got opportunity. The junior officers are "promoted" to different positions in the army (a kidrath for you, a company for you...) so to get any interfering nobility out of the way (the majority of officers of the PD's are nobles). You're then clear to setup new leadership that is perhaps more politically under control, move their base to somewhere more relevant to where nasty things are (rather than the boring-ass Hullack forest), and remove their past ability to grossly abuse their status and power.

This solves several IC and OOC problems simultaneously:

1) Law Enforcement. Under the reform, the RCMH can be exempted from the tedium of law enforcement duty (and by that what we ACTUALLY mean is that they're not allowed to). ICly, this stops the political problems they had in the past, and OOCly, it puts the final nail in the coffin of a PC faction having any hand in law/rule enforcement (though they could still report any violations/misconduct they see).

2) With the problem of #1 resolved, that allows the Crown to move the RCMH where they belong--closer to the frontier where all the big nasties are. Ideally, this could mean either Arabel or somewhere very nearby. ICly, this would given the Crown something of a "ceremonial" presence in/around Arabel. Arabel gets free protection from it from beasties, but no actual interference. OOCly, this makes starting and finding RP as part of the faction quite a bit easier--when the faction HQ is right around the block, not only is it easier to get there (how many people know what and where the current HQ is? No cheating, old-timers), but it also makes it easier for newer players or characters to find. A more official presence in the hub of the server gives them a bit more visibility and makes them feel less... remote. It could also result in some interesting political RP regarding the officers, the Arabel council, and the NPC leadership of Arabel (and Cormyr, if so desired).

3) Political Control. Under the new organization, the faction's ultimate commanding officer and Oversword would be based in Suzail--where the Crown can keep a closer idea on his as compared to his predecessor. The field commander would be the head of the PC faction, and report to them via forum/staff. This gives the Crown more direct control, ICly, and OOCly, it allows for an NPC/political commander that handles the background political stuff and offers OOC guidance, without getting in the way of the routine player stuff and control of the day-to-day bits of the faction.

4) Sense of Identity. Both ICly and OOCly, this gives the player military adventurer faction a stronger sense of identity. They're no longer a group of people who does a job that's already being done. This is -their- faction, the faction of adventurers in direct service to Cormyr and their players. It's theirs to run... possibly into the ground.

There's more that -could- be said about this, but I certainly think that's enough at the moment. For now, I'm more interested in what you guys have to say regarding this!

[Nokteronoth]

I used to do the whole PC guard thing back on Arelith. It was fun. My cleric Ellen made it to being Commander, expanded the ranks of the Guard there from something like 3-4 players up to 37 before she stepped down. PCs enforcing laws 'can' be done, but it gets complicated and you need a player at the top (under an NPC) that's very active, so they can review everything done during a day. That being said, you 'can' have fun with it without people abusing it, but there has to be some give and take between the law abiding and not, which can tend to strain things. So like as not this is a positive idea as a shift away from players having much authority at all, while still being connected to official business.

It can be done, but I don't think CD is the server for it.

What you're proposing sounds like it could be good, if it had a DM being active with it. Or at least someone eho could take new recruits out, help outfit them, look for potential people to join it. Of course, they'll likely need some sort of incentive to join other than the prestige of the group, but I'd leave that to the 'lead' players to figure out. Back on the other server my Ellen promised new recruits training, pay, and she'd make sure they got whatever they needed. Would even put paintings of them up in the Guardhouse, wrote them all guidebooks, etc.

If you want to move them from Thundarlun, why bother having them wiped out? You can always just have them get a little -too- rowdy that the Crown actually has to pay attention, and fires most of them out of the group. And as a new alternative, they can try to hire adventurers as many of them have helped the crown before. And then you have recurring issues with either those that were dismissed, or the others left behind that could turn into story-plots. Though I suppose you can do the same with the wiping-out idea.

Either way, I think it's okay as far as where to take a faction goes. Just needs more planning and specifics.

~BR

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 29, 2015 19:59:09 GMT -5 Nokteronoth said:

If you want to move them from Thundarlun, why bother having them wiped out? You can always just have them get a little -too- rowdy that the Crown actually has to pay attention, and fires most of them out of the group. And as a new alternative, they can try to hire adventurers as many of them have helped the crown before. And then you have recurring issues with either those that were dismissed, or the others left behind that could turn into story-plots. Though I suppose you can do the same with the wiping-out idea.


~BR

The problem there is, well, Cormyrean politics. The Oversword is a Lord, and likely a rather influential one at that. There aren't too many of those in general in Cormyr, and they're all high placed nobles. For that matter, what with them being an elite group, the officers of the group are likewise rather highly placed/named nobles. You can't simply fire them--you have to go through oodles and oodles of political drama that probably just won't happen due to alliances between lords and families, etc. And with no monarch of age and a missing Regent or whatever the hell is going on in Suzail these days, there's basically no one with even close to the amount of authority or clout that would be needed to make such a thing happen. You basically have to engineer some deux ex machina to switch things up and reform things at this point, if you want it to be any sort of accurate to the political situation (and feudal politics in general).

May 29, 2015 19:59:09 GMT -5 Nokteronoth said:

I used to do the whole PC guard thing back on Arelith. It was fun. My cleric Ellen made it to being Commander, expanded the ranks of the Guard there from something like 3-4 players up to 37 before she stepped down. PCs enforcing laws 'can' be done, but it gets complicated and you need a player at the top (under an NPC) that's very active, so they can review everything done during a day. That being said, you 'can' have fun with it without people abusing it, but there has to be some give and take between the law abiding and not, which can tend to strain things. So like as not this is a positive idea as a shift away from players having much authority at all, while still being connected to official business.



It can be done, but I don't think CD is the server for it.

Due to:

In regards to role, the short answer is: Nothing! The Purple Dragons have been entirely "politically" removed from Arabel: garrison, army base, etc. There are OOC factors in this as well; without dredging through server history too much, it comes down to past players with characters of PD status getting way too carried away with the canon law enforcement status of Cormyr's military arm and necessitating a need to remove them as a faction of any control in the server's central hub.

That one can't be hell no'd enough. Something that's been tried, died, buried, and needs to stay deep, deep in the ground. Preferably after having been doused with gasoline and set alight.

[Edge]

Yeah, we have not and will not ever approve any sort of PC-operated policing organization whatsoever. Some people may have had better experiences with it at one point or another, but we've seen it go way too badly before and especially the attempts by various PCs to do so here have never gone well. It's not happening, so let's just not let the conversation veer in that direction.

[Fire Wraith]

Moving the headquarters is pretty reasonable, and there are any number of spots that could work that are closer to areas of interest. I don't think it needs any particular reasoning either.

[Voice of Kerensky]

Any other thoughts from some players?

[lb7]

I myself have entertained the thought of Silvia signing up with the WWs. I don't really have much thoughts to offer towards the discussion, however (...I have random wrestling clips, though, because thats how seriously I try to take this game).

Actually, I do have one theoretical question I guess.

Story wise speaking, if your character was a member of the Purple Dragons, or the WW, within this proposed elite and adventuring type branch, how much time, in actuality, would this leave your character with to go about and do their own thing?

To clarify a little on this, joining a military faction of any sort, magical or otherwise, tends to imply that you have to spend some degree of time in their headquarters, and do duties for them. It's very likely that a lot of this would be assumed to be occurring on the player's off-screen time, and some of what goes on behind the curtains would largely depend on the character (A character with a strong base in alchemy for example, would probably be put on duties of potion making for the army).

So with that said, how much time would you realistically have for adventuring, and how much time would your character be expected to spend with the army?

This is all theoretical and RP and story-wise speaking, but to me, it would be good to know.

[onivel]

You don't eat sleep and breath the military outside of boot camp. Provided one was not in a state of war, one would have their assigned duty shifts and have off duty time to pursue personal interests. Regular (semi) days off, and request leave from a commanding officer for longer periods away from ones unit if necessary.

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 30, 2015 15:43:57 GMT -5 lb7 said:

I myself have entertained the thought of Silvia signing up with the WWs. I don't really have much thoughts to offer towards the discussion, however (...I have random wrestling clips, though, because thats how seriously I try to take this game).

Actually, I do have one theoretical question I guess.

Story wise speaking, if your character was a member of the Purple Dragons, or the WW, within this proposed elite and adventuring type branch, how much time, in actuality, would this leave your character with to go about and do their own thing?

To clarify a little on this, joining a military faction of any sort, magical or otherwise, tends to imply that you have to spend some degree of time in their headquarters, and do duties for them. It's very likely that a lot of this would be assumed to be occurring on the player's off-screen time, and some of what goes on behind the curtains would largely depend on the character (A character with a strong base in alchemy for example, would probably be put on duties of potion making for the army).

So with that said, how much time would you realistically have for adventuring, and how much time would your character be expected to spend with the army?

This is all theoretical and RP and story-wise speaking, but to me, it would be good to know.

In regards to the particular unit we're discussing, the RCMH, the actual need to be "on duty" would be fairly rare. After all, this is a small elite unit of troops that are used to defeat the most dire threats to the land, and walking armies in and of themselves, not the guys you throw into the kitchens to skin potatoes or stick in a tower in some isolated patrol post. There would be some official "roles" given out mostly for flavor, and the vast majority of these would be background RP. In short, most of the time they'd be expected to behave more like more official and more well-behaved adventurers, as the bulk of their duties and efforts would probably be in collaboration with adventurers and other such mercenaries.

I imagine they would have something like a weekly or monthly sortie (probably monthly) and something like a once-per season retreat. Otherwise, they'd likely be largely afield, acting as knights errant and taking care of threats to the realm as they best see fit, only reporting otherwise at the request of the CO or another superior officer, or for special occurrences.

[onivel]

May 31, 2015 20:05:43 GMT -5 psappho said:

May 30, 2015 15:43:57 GMT -5 lb7 said:

This is pretty much how I treat Roan. Works to do good where he can until instructed to something specific by his commanding officers. 

[Voice of Kerensky]

May 31, 2015 20:51:49 GMT -5 onivel said:

May 31, 2015 20:05:43 GMT -5 psappho said:

This is pretty much how I treat Roan. Works to do good where he can until instructed to something specific by his commanding officers. 

That's perfect as far as I'm concerned. We can certainly do faction specific stuff when we've got people around and can get things together, but I don't want an over-reliance on chain of command and orders. Too much real life in the way for that!

I'll be sending you a PM as well.

I've had time with the PD's and I can echo what Psappho, Edge and others have said that a political organization within the city of Arabel is a bad idea.  

What I like is the elite unit that does things beyond what normal soldiers are able to do.  What I've had in the past is a vague attempt at running a real military, which is impossible for reasons stated above, but do I regret any time I played? No, it was all fun and worth while.  What I enjoyed was that I was a part of something, a group, a cause, a way to progress and develop serving something greater.  The whole idea is one of my character's happiest times.  

What I'd recommend?  Attendance may have always been an issue, and we all have been a part of groups that've fallen apart because of a sincere lack of it.  So, we could work on this, but this depends that people work well together.  If not, your going to have things that fall apart.