Beating the (Un)dead Horse: IC, OOC, Antagonism, Issues, etc

[sinisteromnibus]

Sept 26, 2014 2:31:30 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

Lies and slander, sir.

You're lies and slander, madam.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 26, 2014 3:05:59 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

Sept 26, 2014 2:31:30 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

Lies and slander, sir.

You're lies and slander, madam.

I am. Those are my aliases.

[Edge]

It is not. In print it's libel.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 26, 2014 6:27:40 GMT -5 Edge said:

It is not. In print it's libel.

That's my third alias. Seriously, if this keeps up, I'm going to have to come up with new ones.

[trylobyte]

More on-topic again, I think the real killer in this whole mess - More than any IC or even many OOC actions by individual players - is the expectation that nothing will change.  Again speaking as the 'complaint sponge' for a number of friends and players I know, I will say there's a general perception among more than a few players that trying to resolve the problem does nothing but make you a bigger target.  There's a belief that it takes more iron-clad proof to get someone disciplined on CD than it does to get someone convicted in a real-life court of law, so going to the staff is useless, and this is furthered by the belief that the players they see as victimizing them enjoy doing so on an OOC level so approaching them only encourages them.  This leaves some people with the mindset of 'I will be bullied every time I log in and nobody will do anything about it,'  in turn leading to the development of an online version of the 'snitches get stitches' attitude, where people who have strong evidence or even proof are afraid to say anything because they think not only will it get ignored but it will then come back at them as even nastier abuse.

I'm sure that if all of us could get together someday and just have a calm, peaceful conversation where we could hash everything out and come to an understanding things would be a lot better for everyone.  Unfortunately, I don't see that really happening - The battle lines, such as they are, were drawn weeks ago and the ingrained attitudes people on both sides have developed are going to be hard to shake.  So, let's start small.  

Dom, I think you and I need to have a chat sometime. I know Bass hates every one of my major characters (Mista because she's a goody-good doormat, Xen'traya because Aesa, and Aelie because, uh, I don't even remember how that one began) and I've never really interacted with you on any other character you play, so there's a lot of dirty laundry here.  I think we need to talk, just to clear up the lingering years-long animosity between the two of us.  

I'll be in touch.

[sinisteromnibus]

Post redacted

[Arya]

Sept 26, 2014 2:24:40 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

And when dealing with other -players- ooc you should just remember the server rules of common sense and respect. It's simple.

This.  I think everyone can really learn from this. 

By extension, I think open dialogue with each other is part of this common sense and respect (ironically, common sense is not common anymore >.>).  Taddling on each other in an attempt to get someone in trouble usually just leads to perceived senses of betrayal.  It is behaviour that generally goes on, in my opinion, with groups under the age of 18+.  

At least in kindergarten kids were honest about the taddling and precluded it with an, "Ummmmm, I'm telling on you!"  <.<  

I know we are taught all of these protocols and such in everyday society, and rarely are we taught to be direct and polite with each other - it's either be super rude, or keeping things and talking about them to others... But being -polite- but -direct- usually goes a long ways. It is an art to work on, and everything is a work in progress.  I would rather work with someone on issues (even if they have an issue with what I suggest is the solution!)... than have these festering grudges and getting angry that nothing is done.  I only allow myself a day at most to be angry over stuff in a game, and I am usually over that sort of stuff in the hour. In extreme cases, a few months, but those people had to be really, deliberately assholes OOCly. Despite corrective attempts.

On the note of antagonistic RP... sometimes, I do avoid it, but I do not go out and punish the people who participate in it.  I am rather practical about it and just do not participate in it. And I generally still get along with those people OOCly.  Until I get evidence of otherwise, I assume it is IC.  And I am still helpful as staff, if I cannot be playerside. My real issue only comes with OOCly motivated antagonistic RP veiled as IC. -That- piece is what needs to stop.

Sincerely,
Arya

[trylobyte]

Sept 26, 2014 7:59:04 GMT -5 Arya Kalarathri said:

My real issue only comes with OOCly motivated antagonistic RP veiled as IC. -That- piece is what needs to stop.

Sincerely,
Arya

This is my concern as well, and I've heard enough things from enough different people to be worried that it might actually be going on.  Especially since it's not easy to tell the difference unless you really know the person doing it, which I don't.

To bring up an example from another server I play on, I have a highly rude, self-righteous, arrogant, obnoxious asshole of a PC who is not only possessed of an extremely negative personality but also has incredibly high stats and is mechanically obnoxious to fight.  I dare say this character manages to be worse than Bass at his least bearable (that I've seen).  A Chaotic Evil drow Black Dragon Disciple antipaladin can be pretty unpleasant after all.  Other PCs -hate- this character for her grandstanding, her arrogance, her cultural insensitivity, her greed, and her general bastardness, plus the fact they can't just kill or intimidate her because she's too powerful.  But I don't get any heat OOCly for it because everyone I interact with there knows me.  Even as my character is heaping threats and verbal abuse on another character who can't retaliate, the player and I will be cracking jokes in tells, discussing stuff we did on alts earlier on Skype, or chatting in IRC with them and their friends.  Because that knowledge is there we all get along despite the antagonism.  I know what lines not to cross and they know what reactions will anger me as opposed to the character, so we can play around each others' dislikes and play off each others' strengths - Positive RP for all.

To contrast this example is another player on the server who played a similar character, a half-orc frenzied berserker who led a mercenary company.  He was actually more pleasant than my character, but he garnered a lot of IC disrespect and later became one of the most disliked people on the server OOCly.  What went wrong?  People assumed he had OOC motivations for everything, usually centered on increasing his own power and influence.  And because the few OOC interactions people had with him showed the same signs of rude behavior and self-promotion it became widely-believed that this was just how he was and this was what motivated him, and people began to treat the player with much the same disdain as his character.  This then spread to other characters he played, resulting in most of the server generally avoiding him, which resulted in him constantly trying to get involved again, which led to more negative interactions between him and other players, which just made things worse in an epic death-spiral that resulted in so many hurt feelings and so much needless antagonism that only five years later are things beginning to settle out again.

Because the OOC knowledge of and camaraderie between players doesn't always exist between antagonists on CD, it becomes hard to tell what is meant strictly IC and what might be an OOC pot-shot.  And as I stated earlier, some people (like me!) are, for one reason or another, quick to assume OOC intent - If the person antagonizing them doesn't know that then they might wind up accidentally starting or feeding an OOC grudge, and all it takes at that point is one OOC loss of patience or one OOC statement that could be taken as a deliberate slight or insult and it's game on.  This is further complicated by CD's relatively small size, which makes antagonistic pairs run into each other a lot more than they might on a much bigger server.

[trylobyte]

I would just like to make a new post to add this vital thought:  I like walls of text.  Thank you.

[Edge]

Sept 26, 2014 10:07:05 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

I would just like to make a new post to add this vital thought:  I like walls of text.  Thank you.

Wall of Text
School evocation [text]; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time several standard actions
Components S, M (powdered quartz), W (lots and lots of W)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level
Duration until the wall goes into the archives (D)
Saving Throw not a chance; Spell Resistance no
A wall of text creates a visible wall of pure text. The wall cannot move and is not easily destroyed. A wall of text is immune to dispel magic and flag, although a postmonster's disjunction can still dispel it. A wall of text can be damaged by spells as normal, except for disintegrate, which thankfully destroys it. It can be damaged by weapons and supernatural abilities, but a wall of text has density 30 and a number of hit points equal to 20 per caster level. Contact with a sphere of annihilation or rod of WTF instantly destroys a wall of text.

Shamelessly stolen from this guy.

[The Nameless Bard]

Sept 26, 2014 7:00:35 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Dom, I think you and I need to have a chat sometime. I know Bass hates every one of my major characters (Mista because she's a goody-good doormat, Xen'traya because Aesa, and Aelie because, uh, I don't even remember how that one began) and I've never really interacted with you on any other character you play, so there's a lot of dirty laundry here.  I think we need to talk, just to clear up the lingering years-long animosity between the two of us.

This was exactly what I was talking about!  Bravo!

[Deleted]

My not-so-little two cents:

We all invest our time, interest, and creativity to this server.  When so much time is spent on a character, it is easy to take negative things that happen toward that character as attacks/consequences against you as a player.  When faced with IC antagonism, we begin applying the characteristics of the character to the player.  Yet, when asked why we're so very sure these conflicts are OOC motivated, we struggle to come up with concrete examples.  Because we feel these incidents are personally directed, it is nigh impossible to step back and apply logic and distance to the situation.

If this happens, it's time to step back.  Ask the other player for breathing room--a mutual silent treatment, for example.  Give that other character space and don't engage in interactions with them unless you're willing to accept the IC consequences.

I could go into a long list of the passive-aggressive, self-fulfilling RP/actions that "prove" these IC conflicts are OOC (when they're not), but there's not enough Snapple in the world to convince me to open THAT can of worms.

Conflicts happen.  It's the truth of any extended period of interpersonal interaction.  It's how we respond as players to these conflicts that can make or break a server.

[Deleted]

Side note:  Edge and I have y'all beat.  Our first characters had death sentences leveled at them by the Tormish faction on a server before they were even created in-game.  How's THAT for antagonistic?   (My first character, his second.)

[dom101]

Sept 26, 2014 7:00:35 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

I'm sure that if all of us could get together someday and just have a calm, peaceful conversation where we could hash everything out and come to an understanding things would be a lot better for everyone.  Unfortunately, I don't see that really happening - The battle lines, such as they are, were drawn weeks ago and the ingrained attitudes people on both sides have developed are going to be hard to shake.  So, let's start small.  

Dom, I think you and I need to have a chat sometime. I know Bass hates every one of my major characters (Mista because she's a goody-good doormat, Xen'traya because Aesa, and Aelie because, uh, I don't even remember how that one began) and I've never really interacted with you on any other character you play, so there's a lot of dirty laundry here.  I think we need to talk, just to clear up the lingering years-long animosity between the two of us.  

I'll be in touch.

First; I deal with posts like this every time I'm active and drawing attention toward Stonehaven, rather than people mulling about in the square to be antagonized or bullied by epics.  Case and point?  2 epics bullying a lowbie bard for his interest in talking to dragons and learning songs from them.  Case and point?  An epic mage forcing a lowbie fighter into a pvp scenario and then 'smelling'  meta-gamed out the ass information.  I'm not joking, this player claimed their HUMAN mage could SMELL something on this person.  Smell it.  The real problem is people don't want to imagine their characters as infallible or that they can be outwitted.  The real problem is people think every story should revolve around them.  Then the issue is the fact blunt and simply: most of the time those characters are boring.

Sure that character (And there are many I'm thinking about) may jump on board every event the server offers, but that doesn't equate to them being any more interesting.  From my point of view.  I'm a firm believer as well that epics should be trying to encourage lower level characters to do things, no stifling their play with "LOOK AT ME I'M HIGHER LEVEL AND YOU WILL BOW TO ME" attitudes.  That said, people that antagonize epics time and time again, aren't going to enjoy playing that character much.  IC consequences for IC actions.  

So saying the 'battle lines' were drawn weeks ago, is a horrible misconception.  The 'battle lines' were drawn when I first stepped foot into the square with Bass and he refused to kiss certain epic ass.  

As far as our Chat, we've had them and continue to have them and will have more in the future I'm sure.  The outcome is always the same.  Neither of us appears to have an issue with the other and we go about our day.  My IC reasons behind disliking Mista?  Are IC.  Xen'traya?  Also IC.  Aelie?  Again, IC.  But if you'd like a general breakdown of why my character doesn't care for them.  Sure.  

He sees Mista as a waste of time and energy; she made up her mind on who and what Bass is, because he has horns.  Acceptable.  Her attempt to join him on an adventure was of convenience.  He doesn't do fair-weather associates.

Xen'traya is seen as a traitor.  You know the reasons behind that and the implications are potentially Meta-gamy.  So I wont go into further detail.

Aelie not only jumped on Victoria's band-wagon when she would mindlessly yammer on and on about how horrible Bass was, but she also did the exact same thing when Bass had issues with Aesa.  AND TO TOP IT OFF, she's a blatant ally of Aesa's.   In case you were wondering, it's never been a secret Bass dislikes Aesa.

Now, everyone that seems to be complaining to you is complaining about my bullying.  Regardless whom these people are, and I'm pretty sure I know who they are, let's have a run down of how OOC'ly I've gone out of my way to change my character to try in some futile way to appease the server.

Issue: Was Chaotic Evil.  Did evil things.  Was evil.  Was told it was too evil.  Told to tone it down.  Told to fuck off, kill myself and any manner of other things.  All OOC by the way.  In tells.  (I don't run to the Admins with any issues I have with players.  They have better things to do with their time than have me tattling about silly nonsense on the internet.  Some people should take that into consideration.)

Solution:  I took 9 months and role-played as a fallen cleric.  9.  (Some people waited longer; sorry about that Darvins)  I asked politely for a fallen token, and then spent that time IC'ly searching for a new deity.  I spent countless hours with half a dozen characters, even some Bass couldn't stand, learning of which deity would have been best for him.  Tempus was eventually settled upon.  I also, when capped (Which means got zero xp for it) devised an idea with Wicked and Destructo12 that would go on to involve almost a dozen characters (some of whom got epic because of the event) in earning Tempus' favor.  

Result:  Bass is still too much of an asshole.  He should be banned for making our feelings hurt IC'ly.

Let's move on.

Issue:  Mechanically built too powerfully.  A half-demon cleric, blackguard who used the Netherese spellblade (The dispel one) was too op and on one hit dispelled all scrolls/potions from people.  That wasn't acceptable and EVEN THOUGH ONLY PVP'D TWICE, BOTH TIMES IN THE ARENA, ... it wasn't allowing others to be on an even footing.

Solution:  I chose to have him rebuilt into a cleric/fighter and RP altered to step away from a demon lord and serve a CN deity.   A CN deity that doesn't condone blackguards.  Also, a CN deity that demanded he use ONLY his battleaxe.  I dropped things like Divine Shield / Divine might.  I dropped Improved expertise.  I avoided situations where pvp would determine the outcome of a heated argument.

Result:  Oh, well ... the ECL is just stupid and shouldn't be played in that manner; they're villians so they should just lay down and take what we give them.

I'll offer one more in an attempt to be brief.

Issue:  Spending too much time in the square alienating, bullying, and all around assholing on people.  Hiding behind guards and mechanics that force players to feel powerless against me/Bass, because he isn't breaking rules, but just verbally accosting people.  It was said the only reason I 'got away' with things is because of anything from sexual favors to donating large sums of money to the admins.  All hilarious accusations and entirely baseless.  I'm broke as a joke; sometimes I can barely pay my cable bill.  Large sums of money.  Yeah.  Okay.

Solution:  I gather a few people that don't seem to mind my form of RP and I get along with really well ooc'ly, and we conspire to create a new place for us to spend time.  A haven for our preferred form of Roleplay.  Stonehaven is born and after just over two years of RP without any form of DM interaction short of a wonderfully done piece with Sidhe of Bass becoming a Knight of Marliir; the area was put in the module.  For those wondering how it's even possible for Bass to have been considered a knight, I assure you it wasn't easy.  And it took a great deal of effort on many player's parts.  Anyway, Stonehaven came in and people liked it.  A lot of people.

Result:  Oh noes, you've split the server; now everyone goes to Stonehaven to RP except for a choice few.  Huh.  I leave the server center and try to play elsewhere, not forcing my RP on people and they choose to come to Stonehaven.  Interesting.  Clearly that's my fault and I should be punished.  Or, as I was told ... give it to another player who clearly deserved it more.  Or, as I was told ... let it become a ruin in another player's epic drama to become evil.  Or, as I was told ... hand it over to DM control so everyone could go there.  A little known fact, ... I invited everyone there.  I've never told anyone they couldn't come to Stonehaven, or play there.  People that choose not to seem to either have an issue with me ooc'ly or can't stand Bass IC'ly.  I can't change that, so I don't dwell on it.

At any rate, I've rambled longer than I anticipated.  Sadly, I'll end up getting bored with all the ooc hate again.  Not that it ever bothers me, mind you.  It just gets boring after awhile.  Then, with conflict simmering and everyone singing camp fire songs together in the square, interest will wane.  Population will drop off.  And people will complain about it being dead.  Oh, another little known fact?  Since I started playing C/D after leaving MD/GC, I've never played on another server.  I logged into Sinfar a few times to try to get people to come RP with me on C/D, but I never actively played elsewhere.  I was invited no less than a dozen times to other servers, with promises of everything from being on the DM team to assisting adminning.  If what FW and Vincent have to put up with is any indication on what I was looking at?  I'd burn my computer first.  So when I take a break, it's not to play elsewhere or draw players to another server.  It's to avoid another cycle of whinging that happens -every- time I start becoming more active and doing things.

In closing; years long animosity?  I don't have any animosity for you.  There are two people I couldn't possibly care any less for that have ever played on this server, and I'm positive they know whom they are.  Neither are active as far as I've seen.  I don't dislike anyone else ooc'ly on this server, and I often go out of my way to speak with them if they approach me first.  Problem is, if your intent is to ooc'ly change my mind on how to play my 4 year old character?  You might as well save it, because I have no time for that.  I don't tell people how to play theirs in any manner ooc or ic, I'd appreciate it if people would stop thinking they have the right to do so to me.

[aceheart]

For the most part I would echo DM Rebel's notions of co-optitude. The server's not balanced at all for combat PvP so it should not be a driving factor. On the other hand opposition takes many other forms (and fighting can happen more secondarily).

My only wish is that we try not to scare away newcomers too much. Neither should we get into a bit of a group mentality where newcomers either conform and join "my" group, or remain subject to what might be an uncomfortable amount of bullying or antagonism which might otherwise be acceptable. I think this is something that happens by itself for the most part, from being buddies and seeing somebody new pop up. It's happened before, with different groups (some of which I may once upon a time been a part of myself). So it's more of a general concern than anything else.

It's also important to remember not all newcomers come the same way. Coming alone is much harder than coming with someone you know to be your support when you're facing that iceberg you're going to need to break to get into some fun RP.


It is  also far from obvious to someone new who only sees one group, if picked on by them a little, that this is the "position" or whim of a small group, and not... like, everyone's opinion of them. This is all the more true given the high proportion of players that are also DMs. It can lend an air of official disapproval. It's easy to say that newcomers should be wary of drawing conclusions so hastily but it can't hurt to work on it from the other side too.