Beating the (Un)dead Horse: IC, OOC, Antagonism, Issues, etc

[sinisteromnibus]

Sept 26, 2014 22:16:56 GMT -5 tenorgeneral said:

That's not really the point I was making.  To each his own, it's just that people should understand that PCs may have had a lot of development and changes they never saw.  What seems statis when viewed through a lens of a short period of interactions may not be static when viewed as a part of the PC's lifespan.

The onus is on the player to both take an interest in other characters and make their own characters interesting. If your character feels ignored or old then you have either failed to take an interest in others with your interactions or have failed to make your character approachable and interesting in some form or fashion. It's really that simple.

Accountability is important, and since we can hold no one accountable for ourselves for our fun in this game it becomes even more simple. Not pleased with your interactions? Look to what -you- can do to improve them -before- you start trying to figure out what others can do to placate you. This should apply to any character of any age or status.

[trylobyte]

At the same time, though, some character aspects require a vehicle to present themselves - Because of the way things work on this particular server you can't always just make things happen in certain directions.  I'll use Aelie as an example again because I obviously have good examples there.  She really enjoys dabbling with politics, thus her being Arabel's longest-serving Council member, and she's on good terms with a lot of noble houses.  One would think in the current political climate of Cormyr this would lead to a lot of interesting and meaningful RP possibilities.  But since all government affairs are DM-controlled, I have no vehicle for political RP unless a DM is active and willing to delve into it.  Right now, none are - The political end of things is on hold and has been for a while.  I have no chance to involve myself let alone get other people involved because there's nobody at the helm.

The second example I'll cite is the Violet Flame.  I really, really want to do something with the Violet Flame again.  The problem here isn't DM activity, since the Flame is player-run, the problem is OOC politics between the various members. Chiefly, as much as I'd like to change with it, restructure it, and do it all over again, my character isn't in charge of it.  A number of us old-timers remember the huge problems that happened when someone who wasn't in charge of a player faction 'took the helm' and steered it in a new and fun direction, then someone who had rank over them came back and everything went to hell.  This is what killed off the Talon Company player-run Purple Dragon faction for good - The conflict between the higher-ranking but largely-inactive people and the lower-ranking but active ones wound up creating a drama storm (one of the worst I've ever seen on CD) nobody wanted to deal with and the leadership burnt out completely.  This has happened to me three different times with the Violet Flame already - I try to change things and the old leader mysteriously reappears and shuts it down - and I'm not sure I care enough to go for number four without overwhelming support from not just players but also staff.

Sometimes there are OOC influences that can prevent a character from expressing things in an IC manner.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.

[Garage Trashcan]

Sept 26, 2014 16:57:13 GMT -5 bknuckles said:

To juxtapose some of the text walls, I'd like to add that IC conflict, antagonism, and general social debauchery can go a long way in enhancing the development of a character (and the characters they interact with). There's nothing inherently wrong in being a "bad guy". It just takes some measure of responsibility!

I was that bad guy once! Glad to see you pop back in. Maybe we'll get to rekindle some of that blood-feud. 

So, time for my two cents as one of those "bitter vets." ^{(holy shit has it really been 6 years? I feel old now.)}

Trylo's sentiments about characters being dead and gone pretty much ring true for characters of mine, namely Felix. For a long time I was just bitter and bitchy about everything and provided nothing of real consequence (which, shocker, led people like Bass to call him out on it and make him a target). Once I stopped doing that, I stopped being a target for IC mockery. I also imagine that it was really unpleasant for people to be around me OOCly since I was just bitchy all the time. So I only played if some of those old characters showed back up. The only "good" decision I've made for him was semi-retiring him during my hiatus a few years ago after he got married so I would stop focusing on finishing his personal story. While I'm glad so many people in the past were invested in helping him, it was no longer relevant and I had to let go. Since then I've had several DMs offer to pick it up for me and I've declined it every time because it wasn't a healthy goal to have.

Nikolai, despite being one of my most enjoyable characters to play, is actually a pretty terrible character in that he completely relies on other people's reactions for me to enjoy playing. This is precisely that sort of "shoving RP down other people's throats" thing that's unhealthy. Eventually people stop reacting to the novelty and surprise, he's boring to play because while he does have deeper motivations 1) They're self-centered because *spoiler alert* he's a sociopath and 2) would not bode well for his longevity.

And while it's good to become invested in other people's characters, it's important to not become TOO invested. I stopped playing Brian because his identity was so entwined with Sha'lyah's he became impossible to play afterwards.

My most interesting character, Merriwether, is an absolute chore for me to play because (gods forbid) I actually have to think when playing him and I can't just shenanigans 100% of the time. This is why I don't really pop in much anymore because while I love the character, I just want to screw around when I get on since I lack the energy to flesh out stories.

So the moral of the story is: Don't be me.

Don't make the same mistakes I've made and just play to have fun. There are no winners and losers here. If that's the mindset that you have then everyone loses, including yourself. This isn't a problem that will just blow over, it's something that can (and will) destroy the server in a game that's already hard to enough to keep going with the dwindling playerbase.

So if you have a problem with someone, swallow your pride and hug it the fuck out. Hug until you can no longer breathe and begin to turn as blue as an Asari. Don't be bitter, angry, and hold grudges, and judge people (read: reasons I don't feel comfortable playing, I'd rather not pollute the server with my toxicity). If you can't find yourself capable of doing that, please seek out a psychological professional in your area. Because we love you and want you to feel better.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 27, 2014 9:01:40 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

At the same time, though, some character aspects require a vehicle to present themselves - Because of the way things work on this particular server you can't always just make things happen in certain directions.  I'll use Aelie as an example again because I obviously have good examples there.  She really enjoys dabbling with politics, thus her being Arabel's longest-serving Council member, and she's on good terms with a lot of noble houses.  One would think in the current political climate of Cormyr this would lead to a lot of interesting and meaningful RP possibilities.  But since all government affairs are DM-controlled, I have no vehicle for political RP unless a DM is active and willing to delve into it.  Right now, none are - The political end of things is on hold and has been for a while.  I have no chance to involve myself let alone get other people involved because there's nobody at the helm.

The second example I'll cite is the Violet Flame.  I really, really want to do something with the Violet Flame again.  The problem here isn't DM activity, since the Flame is player-run, the problem is OOC politics between the various members. Chiefly, as much as I'd like to change with it, restructure it, and do it all over again, my character isn't in charge of it.  A number of us old-timers remember the huge problems that happened when someone who wasn't in charge of a player faction 'took the helm' and steered it in a new and fun direction, then someone who had rank over them came back and everything went to hell.  This is what killed off the Talon Company player-run Purple Dragon faction for good - The conflict between the higher-ranking but largely-inactive people and the lower-ranking but active ones wound up creating a drama storm (one of the worst I've ever seen on CD) nobody wanted to deal with and the leadership burnt out completely.  This has happened to me three different times with the Violet Flame already - I try to change things and the old leader mysteriously reappears and shuts it down - and I'm not sure I care enough to go for number four without overwhelming support from not just players but also staff.

Sometimes there are OOC influences that can prevent a character from expressing things in an IC manner.  It's unfortunate, but it happens.

Yes, I understand that politics are important to some characters -  I also get a DM is needed for that. I get that player-run factions run into issues with ooc politics, and you can't always rely on people to behave like adults about it.

But tell me...are these the only things that matter to your character? Seriously? Is that the extent of her depth? Her career...and...her career? She's got two talents...and there's nothing else worth expressing?

I mean, I'm not doubting that a character can be that flat and still make it to epics. I'm not. But I would hope that isn't the case. From the calibre of roleplay I have seen demonstrated on this server time and again from those I have come to love playing with, I have to believe that this is not the norm.

So if you're struggling because Aelie is politically and magically inclined...maybe try developing other aspects of her personality.

And yes, I realize that Aelie was just one example - but this can be applied to any and all characters. If you can't find those aspects that make them enjoyable not only to you, but to those you play with - set them aside until you can, or retire them. Easier said than done, I know, because we do get attached to those characters we've invested a lot of time in, but consider this - you do those treasured creations of yours a disservice by allowing them to outlive their glory too long.

[trylobyte]

You're right that I do the character a disservice by keeping her around long after she's had anything to do, which is why I'm not really playing her.  But you also do a disservice to me by insulting a character as 'flat' when you've only interacted with them in one setting a handful of times.  Any character seems flat when you haven't made an effort to see any depth from them, and I'm not going to come onto the forums and explain everything to you OOCly just to prove a point either.  I'm just giving examples of how elements I could use, and want to use, to continue to develop the character are being shut down by OOC issues beyond my control.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 27, 2014 17:15:01 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

You're right that I do the character a disservice by keeping her around long after she's had anything to do, which is why I'm not really playing her.  But you also do a disservice to me by insulting a character as 'flat' when you've only interacted with them in one setting a handful of times.  Any character seems flat when you haven't made an effort to see any depth from them, and I'm not going to come onto the forums and explain everything to you OOCly just to prove a point either.  I'm just giving examples of how elements I could use, and want to use, to continue to develop the character are being shut down by OOC issues beyond my control.

You misunderstand. If anything, I was giving you an opportunity to show that Aelie does have more depth to her than you indicate here. I said that I don't doubt a character could be that flat and still made it to epics, but that I would hope this is not the case. I've made no assumptions about your character - I just pointed out to you that if you don't want her to be flat, the onus is on you to change it.

If none of my characters have had an opportunity to see more of Aelie than they have, that's as much on you as it is me - because the opportunities to interact have been there, and they've been declined in some fashion or other - often by you being afk in a heavily trafficked roleplay area. If you don't want Aelie to be a placeholder - do something about her. Whinging about the disservice I've done to you by insinuating something I haven't isn't likely to solve your problem.

[darthweasel]

Yeah this topic is like a train that started in LA headed for NY.. and somehow is now moving towards Shanghai.

[dom101]

My phone is about to die. I'm drunk as fuck at dinner. I just want to remind people.  Player organizations die all the time.   Don't like they way the player organization is being handled that you're currently in?  Uhhhhh.  Make your own. Steal members. Do shit.

Stop blaming others for your inability to spark interest in something you want to do. Stop trying to steal someone else's idea. Start your own. Entwine them if you want or don't. The opportunity is there regardless.

Bass left clockwork for that very reason.  Now he runs with the Stonehaven crew and guess what?  Clockwork is practically unheard of. It's not the organizations that matter but those they revolve around. I'm done for now. Food is here. I'll be on to fuck shit up later.

[Fire Wraith]

As regards to player guilds, troupes, factions, et cetera, this is basically how it works:

1) Nobody has a monopoly on a concept.

What this means is that we're not going to say 'sorry, there's an existing faction of that type, you have to join it.' While we'd certainly prefer people cooperate, given the small size of the player base, we'd rather have two groups doing the same thing than let anything get stale because the existing faction has grown moribund. It's been our experience that inevitably one of the two will die out and leave the more active one, or they'll merge, and the system achieves equilibrium on its own.

2) No particular player has a greater "right" to any faction than any other.

Going along with the previous one, no single player ever has any sort of OOC veto power over any faction, no matter what they've done. IC is IC, and if someone has IC support as leader of a faction, then expect them to stay that way, but OOC only works on what the players want, and everyone is equal in that sense.

3) No placeholding.

If you have a position in a faction, and leave the server or otherwise go inactive for a long period of time, you don't have a right to expect that you keep your old position. That doesn't mean people ICly won't restore you to it, simply that you have no OOC right to expect it. We fully expect that if someone else stepped up to keep the faction going after you left, then that person is the one who should have any sort of IC precedence, in our opinion (for what that's worth). You want your position back? Work to reacquire it ICly.

In the case of the Violet Flame, that's entirely up to the players. Convince your fellow interested sorts, and if all or a majority of the active sorts want to do X, then the staff is going to go with that. Various DMs' involved characters may have opinions, but the staff isn't going to step in and say "No, you can't change your leadership or faction structure".

[dom101]

Sept 27, 2014 23:00:31 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

As regards to player guilds, troupes, factions, et cetera, this is basically how it works:

1) Nobody has a monopoly on a concept.

What this means is that we're not going to say 'sorry, there's an existing faction of that type, you have to join it.' While we'd certainly prefer people cooperate, given the small size of the player base, we'd rather have two groups doing the same thing than let anything get stale because the existing faction has grown moribund. It's been our experience that inevitably one of the two will die out and leave the more active one, or they'll merge, and the system achieves equilibrium on its own.

2) No particular player has a greater "right" to any faction than any other.

Going along with the previous one, no single player ever has any sort of OOC veto power over any faction, no matter what they've done. IC is IC, and if someone has IC support as leader of a faction, then expect them to stay that way, but OOC only works on what the players want, and everyone is equal in that sense.

3) No placeholding.

If you have a position in a faction, and leave the server or otherwise go inactive for a long period of time, you don't have a right to expect that you keep your old position. That doesn't mean people ICly won't restore you to it, simply that you have no OOC right to expect it. We fully expect that if someone else stepped up to keep the faction going after you left, then that person is the one who should have any sort of IC precedence, in our opinion (for what that's worth). You want your position back? Work to reacquire it ICly.

In the case of the Violet Flame, that's entirely up to the players. Convince your fellow interested sorts, and if all or a majority of the active sorts want to do X, then the staff is going to go with that. Various DMs' involved characters may have opinions, but the staff isn't going to step in and say "No, you can't change your leadership or faction structure".

I agree to an extent on all of those points.  But, what I'm getting at is ... let's use Stonehaven for instance.  Bass doesn't in any official manner control or rule there, based on the OOC Ruling that no PC can rule a place.  Understandable.  But if for what ever reason Bass chose to move his attention elsewhere.  It's unlikely the place would survive; it's not the location that draws people to it, it's Bass and the people he draws to it, that is the gravitating force.

Same with Violet Flame as far as I'm aware; when there's a charismatic figure-head working to do things with people, people are eager to interact there.  When it's a bunch of 'leadership' infighting about who has the biggest wand, people get bored with it quickly.

[Fire Wraith]

That's generally how things end up working. If the active player/players leave, and no one steps up to take their place, the group dies off.

It's basically by design, because if people have lost interest, well, better for the staff to focus on running stuff around the groups people are interested in, rather than trying to artificially inflate it for dead ones.

[Atomic Twinkie]

I'm gone for a week and this happens. What even.

[thorien]

Yup, your fault!

[onivel]

Sept 27, 2014 19:02:08 GMT -5 dom101 said:

My phone is about to die. I'm drunk as fuck at dinner. I just want to remind people.  Player organizations die all the time.   Don't like they way the player organization is being handled that you're currently in?  Uhhhhh.  Make your own. Steal members. Do shit.

Stop blaming others for your inability to spark interest in something you want to do. Stop trying to steal someone else's idea. Start your own. Entwine them if you want or don't. The opportunity is there regardless.

Bass left clockwork for that very reason.  Now he runs with the Stonehaven crew and guess what?  Clockwork is practically unheard of. It's not the organizations that matter but those they revolve around. I'm done for now. Food is here. I'll be on to fuck shit up later.

Clockwork was dead. I tried to revive it and ended up with a a small group of players. Half of them got run off the server for various reasons. I was left with a mostly dead group again. It ended up being a tough RL time for me and I could not put in the time to get it going again. I invited Bass a footstep in, I got further tied up with RL stuff and was mostly away from the server for several weeks. When I was able to get going again, Bass tried to strong arm Tene into handing it over. She didn't give in. Bass left to Stonehaven which was already being formed.

I didn't have time or energy to go back into rebuilding it so I passed its control on to Belorian. Up to here where it went form there.


Yes, guilds/troupes whatever have life cycles. Some grow, some fade. Sometimes you can hit it with the defibrillator and jump start it. Sometimes you just don't get a rhythm back. At the end of the day though, it takes a committed group, not a single person to make it work. 

[Colin Mack]

Okay time for my two cents. Bass is an asshole. Dom is not Bass if you think that you really need to step back and speak to him ooc for a while. Now on that subject i have three pc's i play on CD for my pc's i take a part of myself and put them into the pc and take it to an extreme. Kyle, Cecilia and Alice. Two don't get on with Bass.

Kyle is my i suppose sense of injustice he has had a real crappy life up until he was an adult. Kyle thinks he is an asshole as he doesn't like how he treats other people and so just generally avoids him especially after a comment he made about his daughter that was.. really out of line.. the thing was even Bass knew when he said it that even for him it was really out of line. But i understood that was Bass and not Dom saying those things to me.

Ce is frankly a bitch as much as bass is an asshole she dislkes him i dont' make any secret of that. There are many reasons for that some are OOC and i don't want to go into cause of the metagaming but basically ce doesn't like men a whole lot. She really doesn't like men who are Assholes. Bass is loud he is obnoxious and he is the kind of man ce hates and wants brought low. But this is all IC ce is a bitch i try not to be in real life. If ce had the opportunity and couild get away with it for free (i have told dom this ooc on several occasions) she would kill him. Her hatred has just gotten to that point. Though it's difficult to do that when you can't stand being near someone so it makes it intresting for her to have another goal.

Alice is my quirky sense of humour. She is well.. probalby mental.

Now in reagrds to Stonehaven. Bass worked hard on getting that off the ground. I respect him for that i know what it's like it's not easy to get a project going. Ce worked long and hard to get her club built and i am hoping to get an opening for it soon. It took a lot of work. And by the way for people who think Aelie is boring i don't think i could have gotten the club built if Ce hadn't bothered to enlist the help of the councilors. Aelie was one who did a lot of work to help Ce. She will always be grateful for that.

If you think someone is being nasty to you try and speak to them with a level head. People over react and jump to conclusions.

Fire is my friend now.. though actually for a long while he and I didn't get on and the first time i was on this server after a disagreement with him i left it was a few years before i came back. I am glad i did. And i am glad of the things i have been able to build here. I am also glad of some of the friends i have made while i have played here too.