Poll - What is your opinion on exotic races?

[SOC_Tessa]

DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be a rant thread or an open argument. I'm merely curious as to the populous' view on exotic races. There have been past snide remarks, full on threads, even occasional attacks on the matter. The subject is probably at least as controversial as the other dead horses on the server, so please keep things civil and constructive. This is not a covert attempt to alter anything - the administration has made it clear that the current compromise is what has been established and more than likely will not change anytime soon, if ever.

Fire Wraith said:

Also, to be clear - having opinions on what you feel should or shouldn't be appropriate in the setting is fine, everyone has them. Just remember, they all differ, and what we've established is an attempt at compromise. It's also something, though, that we'd prefer to not have to constantly rehash.

[Edge]

Should probably be an option for "Other - discussed in thread" or some such.

[The Red Mage]

My opinion hasn't changed. I'd prefer if they have nothing but flavor benefits(spells) and no attribute increases or the like. If being a half dragon is imperative to your character's narrative, then give them the aesthetic, breath weapon, and elemental immunity, but leave off the attribute bonuses.

I don't feel exotic races offer too much in terms of story telling a human couldn't replicate and in the long term can damage story telling potential due to an inherent lack of flexibility.

I'm able to understand the counter arguments, but I just don't agree with them. I've played a couple of ecl, but they weren't for me mechanically or otherwise.

[SOC_Tessa]

Sept 29, 2014 12:45:41 GMT -5 Edge said:

Should probably be an option for "Other - discussed in thread" or some such.

That's a good idea, but I only see an option to remove the poll when I edit? I might be blind, but if someone with higher forum privileges could add in that option I'd highly appreciate it.

Edit: Seems restricted to Moderators/Administrators once any votes are cast to avoid "rigging" it after the fact by changing/adding options:
www.phpbb.com/community/faq.php#f2r5

[The Red Mage]

That's the only option I see as well.

[dom101]

I always hate these kinds of polls.  Because honestly, if the ECL system ever gets changed.  A lot of people aren't going to bother playing.  I didn't spend 4 years slow-balling my leveling whilst watching people like Korlash get to 20 in 6 months, just for a different color skin and some spells.  I'm sure a lot of other ECL players are of the same mind.  PC's in a fantasy setting aren't meant to be plane-jane potato farmers ... if you want to play that, feel free, but in a high magic setting with plenty of IC reason behind having the ECL's we have.  It shouldn't even be an issue.  

[Remmy]

I am fine with the ECL system as is. Many of them get powerful bonuses, yes, but with ECL they have severe drawbacks as well. Compared to a Human they level slower, receiving less fairy per day, and reach level caps quicker. A human on the other hand levels much faster, has no hard caps except 20 and 30, and will gain more HP, BAB, saves, and feats than their ECL counterparts, especially if you reach epic levels where they cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment. This is the balance of the system and I think it works well enough.

If you think Humans still are not good enough they petition for some of the Pathfinder (essentially D&D 3.75 by the guys who did the Dragon and Dungeon magazines for decades) changes, like Humans getting +2 to the ability score of their choice on creation.

[The Nameless Bard]

I've long stopped worrying about people's ELC race aside from a minor comment from time to time (which based on the poll seems how people like it).  I was never quite sure that's how they wanted it to be dealt with but everyone else reacts that way.  So, it always seems like different model/wings/horns/skin colours and some mechanical benefits - to which, I'm sure there are numerous exceptions to that, it's just that the line of RP tends to be with close friends rather than public RP.  

I've never played one, but to me, the reason to play one is because of the racial RP and outcast nature of it.  That doesn't work in this server, so I stick with the standard classes races.


This won't ever change, even if it did, everything would be grandfathered in.  

[Edge]

Sept 29, 2014 13:15:14 GMT -5 SOC_Tessa said:

Sept 29, 2014 12:45:41 GMT -5 Edge said:

Should probably be an option for "Other - discussed in thread" or some such.

That's a good idea, but I only see an option to remove the poll when I edit? I might be blind, but if someone with higher forum privileges could add in that option I'd highly appreciate it.

Edit: Seems restricted to Moderators/Administrators once any votes are cast to avoid "rigging" it after the fact by changing/adding options:
www.phpbb.com/community/faq.php#f2r5

Ah that's fair. I've never tried making a poll here so I wasn't sure how it worked.

[onivel]

Sept 29, 2014 14:25:42 GMT -5 The Nameless Bard said:

......


This won't ever change, even if it did, everything would be grandfathered in.  

Pretty much this. We have gone through the vault wipe/item wipe route before. It was vowed never again.

[The Red Mage]

Gmone is probably the least represented class on the server, so you nailed it!

Also, your journal is amazing.

[SOC_Tessa]

When I opened the thread, I was clear in the disclaimer that it wasn't a movement to change anything. I wanted to know where public opinion lay is all.

If I've learned anything from communities over the years of NWN's existence, it's that you'll never please everybody. I agree that any radical changes to the ECL races would cause "a lot of people to leave", just as I'm sure the current state has already quietly pushed others away due to its proliferation. "A lot of people will leave" because XP progression is too slow. "A lot of people will leave" because XP progression is too fast. "A lot of people will leave" because their favorite faction died off. "A lot of people will leave" because all their friends left. "A lot of people will leave" because they hate that a skybox changed or a bush was added or the music in an area changed. The point is moot, because I'm not rallying for change (also note this is in the General Forum and not Suggestions), but if I were, public opinion as a whole would be more valuable than any single loud voices.

I'm still technically part of the newer breed of players, but my gathering on the subject from previous conversations was that the "slow rolling" of XP was across the board and not limited to ECLs and any "fast tracking" you may point at over the last year was due to a global adjustment to the rate of advancement. Yes, there was an adjustment for ECL making an exponential difference, but I'm not aware of sweeping changes that were levied directly on ECLs, but do correct me if I'm misinformed.

But since we're opening up discussion on the subject in force again...

On the balance side of things, I've found ECL a curious monster. For CD sever specific, there is an additional house rule not in the PnP implementation - regardless of ECL one always begins at level 2. Any complaints about the slowed progression are ignoring exactly what "ECL" stands for (it's "Effective Character Level"). If you're a level 12 Half-Dragon (+3 ECL) you are comparable to a level 16 dwarf in power. The experience tax is the "back payment" for the adjustments, and if it is adjusted properly is only really making you earn experience at the level 16 that you really are. 

"A human on the other hand levels much faster, has no hard caps except 20 and 30, and will gain more HP, BAB, saves, and feats than their ECL counterparts, especially if you reach epic levels where they cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment."

Standard Half-Dragon Template:
+8 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, Natural AC +4, Breath Weapon, Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Immunities to an Energy Type, Sleep and Paralysis effects.

The level cap is 30, so at an ECL of +3 on CD, he caps out at level 27.

1) "The human will gain more HP". Slightly, but only if they're one of the militant classes of d10 of higher. Let's take the biggest HD there is - Barbarians have a d12. The barbarian, fully leveled, thus receives 36 total more HP for the 3 levels the Half-Dragon can't attain. The Half-Dragon, due to having an extra +2 Con adjustment, gains an extra 27 HP over the full levels it can attain. A difference of 9 hit points, whee. And that's comparing the highest hit die. If you are any class with a hit die of d8 or lower (which happens to be the average of all base classes), a human actually gets LOWER HPs.

2) "The human will have more BAB". False. +8 Strength is a flat out passive +4 boost (from level 2, I might add). It might take longer to hit level 20 (BAB doesn't advance from leveling post-epic), but any melee Half-Dragon will have a BAB of 4 points higher than a human. Oh, and they'll have an extra +4 damage to boot.

3) "The human has higher saves". In this case, true. The half-dragon has one save-altering stat, the +2 Con, so his saves will be lower.

4) "The human has more feats". The human has one more selectable feat at character creation. Arguable if it outweighs the benefits of the feat-like abilities the Half-Dragon receives - Darkvision, Breath Weapon or Sleep/Paralysis effects (before pointing out the similarities in Elves/others as far as Sleep immunity or Darkvision, the human receives the extra feat to balance those perks out).

5) "The ECL cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment." The con presented here is the ever-present "slower leveling" and that the character is "denied epic feats". Let's look at the second one first. A character receives a feat at first level, then one every 3rd level. So in the Epic realm, that means at 21, 24, 27 and 30. So the Half-Dragon does indeed lose out on one epic feat... or does it? Let's look at two epic feats for a moment - "Diamond Skin" and "Epic Energy Resistance". The former grants a +2 passive AC (it says Natural, but actually stacks with it), the Half-Dragon has +4 Natural AC, superior to an epic feat. The latter gives a resist 10 to one type of energy, the Half-Dragon has complete immunity to a type, again, superior to its epic counterpart. The Half-Dragon gets to enjoy this right from the start of character creation, without having to reach level 21. 

Other potential argument:

6) "The human gets more skill points". In this case, slightly true. The human does get 30 extra points, right? Oh wait...the Half-Dragon gets a passive +2 Int, so he's getting 27 points there. So, 3 extra from being human, and 3 extra from level cap difference. The skill caps also increase by 3 due to levels, so I guess you'll be "slightly less skilled" being capped at a 30 Perform base versus 33.

So we're left with whatever class abilities we get in three levels to justify the above (+4 damage, +2 Charisma, two epic feats at level one at the cost of one much later on) and anything else less mechanical (such as being able to fly). In a non-epic setting, you'd have to think long and hard before jumping into an ECL. If it's high enough, you'll lock yourself out of your highest level spells, or miss out on any high level class features. In an epic setting with a normal cap of 30, however, most classes already gave their goods up by 20, and a lot really just provide passive boosts beyond. You have to craft a real swiss-army knife of a character stretched over several classes to miss out on anything meaningful by level 27. I also don't know the full extent of any magic changes, but those three missing levels are only going to be slight passives (increased duration, save DCs and dispel resists) unless a lot of the capped spells allow damage increases beyond 27 (Most spells as written cap out at 25 dice, epic spells are fixed amounts of dice).

Even if you argue the above is relatively balanced, a Half-Dragon gets it all out of the gate at character creation.

The biggest balancing factor I see consistently being brought up is the slower progression. It was covered above, but it gets brought up so much that I'll reprise it here. The Half-Dragon (+3 ECL) starts at effectively level 5. It received two "levels" at creation, so of course it's advancement is slower - it should be closer to someone who is level 5. You are more or less taking out a loan on all the adjustments and abilities and paying it off over time. 

On the flavor end of things, CD in its current state feels more like it should be a Planescape setting and not Forgotten Realms. I understand the desire to play something that's a step above the norm, but opening the floodgates is just plain silly when a half-orc would reputedly gain more negative attention than drow or devil/demon breeds. "A line has to be drawn somewhere", but it looks a bit squiggly line from an outside view.

Damn that was long winded. I think I remember something about this not turning into an argument...I guess I failed at that.

[Edge]

If you're a level 12 Half-Dragon (ECL+4 in pnp, but +3 on CD)

This is incorrect. Check your Monster Manual again. Half-Dragons are +3, Half-Fiends and -Celestials are +4. That hasn't been changed.

There are some races that have, Avariel comes to mind immediately, being +3 in PnP but only +2 on CD. But Half-Dragons aren't one of those, other than saying "All half-dragons get wings if they want them" rather than PnP's "only half-dragons of Large size or larger automatically get wings".

CD in its current state feels more like it should be a Planescape setting and not Forgotten Realms

This is honestly not all that surprising. A number of staff over the years have expressed regret or frustration with having chosen FR for the server's setting, and both privately and publicly stated that if they had the opportunity to do it over again, they'd select a different setting, or homebrew one from scratch. Myself among them.

Since that's not as much an option now, what it has become - over almost 9 years of play, storytelling, staff exchanges, and player base rotation, with the only real truly-permanent constants ever being Fire Wraith and Vincent - is sort of a loosely-FR-based our-world, even deliberately splitting off FR's canon and history at a certain point and saying "beyond this point, nothing you read in the books or on the wiki occurred unless we say otherwise".

Which frankly, over that much time and with the input and influence of that many people, is inevitable. If we still strongly resembled canon FR at this point, I'd be seriously wondering what happened, and more direly if player input was being allowed or considered at all.

[SOC_Tessa]

Sept 29, 2014 15:51:53 GMT -5 Edge said:

If you're a level 12 Half-Dragon (ECL+4 in pnp, but +3 on CD)

This is incorrect. Check your Monster Manual again. Half-Dragons are +3, Half-Fiends and -Celestials are +4. That hasn't been changed.

So it is. I must have started with one in my head and switched over at some point. I will adjust appropriately.

I do recall reading (I think on the old forums) that at one point either the ECL was, or was being considered to only count as 1/2 for purposes of level cap. Is that still in effect/planned?

One more - In an ECL-world is there any mechanical reason to take Dragon Disciple as a prestige class over taking the Half-Dragon ECL race? You spend 10 character levels to "earn" what you could with effectively 3. It seems regulated to the purely "flavorful" camp. Have there been any past cases where characters were granted a rebuild from Dragon Disciple into a Half-Dragon?

[Fire Wraith]

No. We wound up taking several levels away from the PC (specifically, mine) that would have otherwise exceeded the limit, making it unnecessary to finesse the cap in that way.