Poll - What is your opinion on exotic races?

[Garage Trashcan]

It's actually a misconception that ECLs level slower.

Will it take longer for a half-fiend to hit level 12 than a human? Yes. The human will probably be level 14 by that time.

But the half-fiend is actually level 16, not level 12, giving them access to that awesome tier 4 gear well before the human. This was supposedly "fixed" a while ago, but after testing done by a few people with ECLs fresh after the change, nothing seemed to change at all (those who spoke with me on this can speak up if they wish, as I don't want to start naming names).

If progression were "fixed" so that a +4 ECL actually begins requiring RP XP at level 4, not level 8, so then when the human is level 12 they're level 8+4, I'd be happy with that change. Granted, I'm not even sure if it's actually possible within the scripts to recognize the level difference as opposed to/in addition to (not sure quite how to phrase it appropriately) the decreased XP gain.

I do wish there was a little more depth required to them though. I can't say much as 99% of the apps have been private in recent months, but those that haven't have been rather bare.

[Edge]

Mechanics aside, I'll be frank: the current behavior regarding exotic races is almost (if not completely) 100% the result of player actions and reactions.

When the server first got started, exotic races were, by and large, feared, loathed, looked down upon, and abused. Doubly so after the vault wipe and reboot Onivel mentioned, as there was a concerted effort by a large segment of the player population at that time to crack down ICly on anything that stepped outside the boundaries of "normal"; the majority of this segment is now long-gone from the playerbase, if that wasn't obvious from the get-go. There was a time where showing wings or tails in Arabel was liable to get you thrown stones at and/or chased out - and not by the implied many NPCs that NWN doesn't show, but primarily by the majority of players. Exotic characters had something to hide, and barring a few exceptions - Aasimars and Half-Celestials tended to get a pass from the get-go, and Dragon Disciples and Metallic Half-Dragons were also fairly quickly "accepted" - revealing you were anything other than the Standard Seven Minus Half-Orc was a severe blow to your reputation unless you had been around long enough to establish yourself as trustworthy and reliable regardless of your species, or if you had someone who was "Normal" who could vouch for you, likewise due to you proving yourself, often repeatedly.

As the server went on over the past decade, that perception changed. Tieflings, Genasi, Half-Drow, the remaining Chromatic Half-Dragons, and a few others started getting general acceptance. Why? Because 99% of their kind that had made themselves known or been discovered on the server before them had not been the types to make trouble. The public perception of that species and the stereotypes and fears associated with them had changed. And the ones who acted out? Generally, it was something else that got blamed besides their species - usually their religions, organizations they were associated with, and such like. My villainous kobold NPC Cheel, for example, wasn't as much considered evil because he was a kobold; the priority, even among the players opposed to him, was on his actions as a leader of an Aurilian cult and his willing cooperation with an Aurilian Cleric/Blackguard - Alu'Vien, who herself was a Half-Fiend. But likewise, people never referred to her as "Alu'Vien the Half-Fiend", but almost always as "Alu'Vien the priestess of Auril".

When I stopped playing NWN back in 2011 or so, there were really only four races that, if you revealed you were one, were liable to get you immediately chased out or killed on the spot: Orcbloods/Goblinoids, full Drow, Half-Fiend, and Undead. Lycanthropes may have been a fifth option, but more likely the majority of players would just hog-tie you and drop you off at the Temple of Selune and get the priests there to "fix" you, rather than killing you on the spot.

And even that's changed over the past two or three years. Now we've got Bass walking around in full- or near-full fiendish bombasticness, and I've seen at least one Drow walking around Arabel unmasked. I've been away long enough to not know the stories, but in just the week I've been back and playing a little it seems the majority of people get along, despite racial boundaries that would have crushed their interactions five or six years ago. (And that's not getting into player-created places like Stonehaven, where there IS no canon to dictate how things would normally operate, and thus behaviors and expectations there are COMPLETELY at the whim of player action.) Honestly I think the anti-Orc thing really just hangs on by tradition alone, coupled with the fact that very few people are interested in playing Half-Orcs so that community perception of the race hasn't been altered as freely or firmly as the more popular Drow, Outsiderkin, or Dragonkin have.

[Fire Wraith]

Sept 29, 2014 16:47:19 GMT -5 Edge said:

Mechanics aside, I'll be frank: the current behavior regarding exotic races is almost (if not completely) 100% the result of player actions and reactions.

This is pretty much it. We just don't have the time/energy/etc to constantly fight the entire playerbase on this issue, because it would be all that we'd ever spend our time running.

This doesn't mean that the non-adventurer population thinks any different though, even if it makes for a shock when people suddenly get treated like a freak or a monster by NPCs (even important ones).

Sept 29, 2014 16:47:19 GMT -5 Edge said:

Lycanthropes may have been a fifth option, but more likely the majority of players would just hog-tie you and drop you off at the Temple of Selune and get the priests there to "fix" you, rather than killing you on the spot.

Remember, always spay or neuter your lycanthrope!

[Edge]

Sept 29, 2014 16:56:28 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

Sept 29, 2014 16:47:19 GMT -5 Edge said:

Lycanthropes may have been a fifth option, but more likely the majority of players would just hog-tie you and drop you off at the Temple of Selune and get the priests there to "fix" you, rather than killing you on the spot.

Remember, always spay or neuter your lycanthrope!

Knew someone was gonna go there

[Remmy]

Sept 29, 2014 15:44:45 GMT -5 SOC_Tessa said:

1) "The human will gain more HP". Slightly, but only if they're one of the militant classes of d10 of higher. Let's take the biggest HD there is - Barbarians have a d12. The barbarian, fully leveled, thus receives 36 total more HP for the 3 levels the Half-Dragon can't attain. The Half-Dragon, due to having an extra +2 Con adjustment, gains an extra 27 HP over the full levels it can attain. A difference of 9 hit points, whee. And that's comparing the highest hit die. If you are any class with a hit die of d8 or lower (which happens to be the average of all base classes), a human actually gets LOWER HPs.

2) "The human will have more BAB". False. +8 Strength is a flat out passive +4 boost (from level 2, I might add). It might take longer to hit level 20 (BAB doesn't advance from leveling post-epic), but any melee Half-Dragon will have a BAB of 4 points higher than a human. Oh, and they'll have an extra +4 damage to boot.

3) "The human has higher saves". In this case, true. The half-dragon has one save-altering stat, the +2 Con, so his saves will be lower.

4) "The human has more feats". The human has one more selectable feat at character creation. Arguable if it outweighs the benefits of the feat-like abilities the Half-Dragon receives - Darkvision, Breath Weapon or Sleep/Paralysis effects (before pointing out the similarities in Elves/others as far as Sleep immunity or Darkvision, the human receives the extra feat to balance those perks out).

5) "The ECL cannot even take epic feats until they reach 21 character levels without the ECL adjustment." The con presented here is the ever-present "slower leveling" and that the character is "denied epic feats". Let's look at the second one first. A character receives a feat at first level, then one every 3rd level. So in the Epic realm, that means at 21, 24, 27 and 30. So the Half-Dragon does indeed lose out on one epic feat... or does it? Let's look at two epic feats for a moment - "Diamond Skin" and "Epic Energy Resistance". The former grants a +2 passive AC (it says Natural, but actually stacks with it), the Half-Dragon has +4 Natural AC, superior to an epic feat. The latter gives a resist 10 to one type of energy, the Half-Dragon has complete immunity to a type, again, superior to its epic counterpart. The Half-Dragon gets to enjoy this right from the start of character creation, without having to reach level 21. 

Other potential argument:

6) "The human gets more skill points". In this case, slightly true. The human does get 30 extra points, right? Oh wait...the Half-Dragon gets a passive +2 Int, so he's getting 27 points there. So, 3 extra from being human, and 3 extra from level cap difference. The skill caps also increase by 3 due to levels, so I guess you'll be "slightly less skilled" being capped at a 30 Perform base versus 33.

So we're left with whatever class abilities we get in three levels to justify the above (+4 damage, +2 Charisma, two epic feats at level one at the cost of one much later on) and anything else less mechanical (such as being able to fly). In a non-epic setting, you'd have to think long and hard before jumping into an ECL. If it's high enough, you'll lock yourself out of your highest level spells, or miss out on any high level class features. In an epic setting with a normal cap of 30, however, most classes already gave their goods up by 20, and a lot really just provide passive boosts beyond. You have to craft a real swiss-army knife of a character stretched over several classes to miss out on anything meaningful by level 27. I also don't know the full extent of any magic changes, but those three missing levels are only going to be slight passives (increased duration, save DCs and dispel resists) unless a lot of the capped spells allow damage increases beyond 27 (Most spells as written cap out at 25 dice, epic spells are fixed amounts of dice).

Even if you argue the above is relatively balanced, a Half-Dragon gets it all out of the gate at character creation.

The biggest balancing factor I see consistently being brought up is the slower progression. It was covered above, but it gets brought up so much that I'll reprise it here. The Half-Dragon (+3 ECL) starts at effectively level 5. It received two "levels" at creation, so of course it's advancement is slower - it should be closer to someone who is level 5. You are more or less taking out a loan on all the adjustments and abilities and paying it off over time. 

On the flavor end of things, CD in its current state feels more like it should be a Planescape setting and not Forgotten Realms. I understand the desire to play something that's a step above the norm, but opening the floodgates is just plain silly when a half-orc would reputedly gain more negative attention than drow or devil/demon breeds. "A line has to be drawn somewhere", but it looks a bit squiggly line from an outside view.

Damn that was long winded. I think I remember something about this not turning into an argument...I guess I failed at that.

All of that is focused specifically on one race, Half-Dragon, a high ECL race. Half-Fiend and Celestial are higher and gain more widespread benefits.

Ability scores: Half-Dragon bonuses do lend themselves better to warrior races given a Dragon's natural strength but are no greater than non-Human benefits in other areas. They make decent Mages but pre-epic they are completely prevented from reaching level 9 spells, Rogues benefit from the skill point increase but otherwise their damage increase is minor, as +4 on most will not amount to much considering Rogues are almost always shit damage unless sneak attacking. +4 Str AB and damage is decent at lower levels for warriors but not as much as time goes on.

More feats: I refer not to character creation, rather to the final hard cap feats at 18 and 30. That is one normal feat and one epic feat that a Half-Dragon misses out on. The normal feat may not be as potent as some of the bonuses received by the Half-Dragon but the epic feat certainly can be. There's a wide variety of epic feats in NWN that are tremendously useful, Armor Skin being one of them. Epic Damage Resistance, Great are others. These are, however, not necessarily going to be as powerful as some of the racial bonuses some ECL's get... but you are not paying an XP cost to get them either. And because epic feats do not take ECL into account a Half-Dragon actually gets its first epic feat 3 levels after it normally would, if they were Human. That is a massive time investment considering the slowness of gaining levels, especially if you do not regularly participate in DM plots. While a Human character may be sitting with, say, Epic Weapon Focus and Specialization for +2 AB and +4 damage if they were a multiclass Fighter at 21 and timed a bonus feat to apply at that level, the Half-Dragon will be choosing a normal feat and waiting months.. if not years given the slowness of some people progressing.

Skill points: Other races get Intelligence bonuses too on creation, ECL or not. Sun Elves get +2 Intelligence. The comparison is a little faulty.

But all in all the discussion of mechanics, while interesting (I like mechanics), is a little besides the point I think. I think they pay a high enough price for what they get, even if others disagree on that part, DM XP cap aside. Most all of these players have put some serious effort into properly playing the race they applied for, so I do not really care if they may be slightly more powerful, mechanically, at early levels. This is not a PvP-focused server, even if PvP does occasionally happen. Your enjoyment of the game should not be increased or diminished because of what mechanical increases another player got. It should be increased by the diversity that character brings to the RP when they interact with others, providing a look at something other than a Human. They are special, even if they are accepted, and this is a high magic server. Even with that they are still a drop in the bucket compared to the overwhelming Human majority in Cormyr who may not be as generous as players.

[The Red Mage]

A +4 ecl caps at level 28 not 26. I've done all the math point for point before, but the system won't change. That's OK. I don't like it at all, but it's really minor in the grand scheme of things. Unless your grand scheme is potato farming, I guess. =p

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2014 16:47:19 GMT -5 Edge said:

Mechanics aside, I'll be frank: the current behavior regarding exotic races is almost (if not completely) 100% the result of player actions and reactions.

This, so SO much this.

There was a time that if Cara walked around showing wings, she would have been in danger of SO many bad things.  It took YEARS for anyone to convince her to walk around openly, and even then it's only in Arabel or other safe-havens (World Serpent Inn, Stonehaven, etc.).

As to mechanics, the only way levelling is "easier" ECLs usually depends on the hunting XP.  Yes, those characters can generally quickly achieve the maximum hunting XP per level... until you hit level 12-ish.  Then it grinds to a near halt due to the lack of creatures that grant XP for those levels.  In addition, the fairy/DM xp takes forever to accumulate.  If you play an ECL that doesn't do DM events often (for whatever reason), you're looking at several RL months in order to level.

Remmy said:

Most all of these players have put some serious effort into properly playing the race they applied for, so I do not really care if they may be slightly more powerful, mechanically, at early levels. This is not a PvP-focused server, even if PvP does occasionally happen. Your enjoyment of the game should not be increased or diminished because of what mechanical increases another player got. It should be increased by the diversity that character brings to the RP when they interact with others, providing a look at something other than a Human.

Agreed.  At this stage of the game, if someone is applying for a race just for "awesome mechanics," they're really only hurting themselves.  I've toyed with several such ideas, but never applied for them due to a lack of interest in the story.  Those who put time and forethought into their characters enough to apply for the race properly (I've seen shorter novellas than some of these applications) will enrich the story of the characters around them.

[Deleted]

Rather than ECLs, I'm more worried about the ratio of elven characters to non-elven characters.  Can we nerf elves, please?  (Sorry, just... couldn't resist.  Blame the lack of caffine.  I have no will.)

[SOC_Tessa]

Sept 29, 2014 17:27:30 GMT -5 Remmy said:

All of that is focused specifically on one race, Half-Dragon, a high ECL race. Half-Fiend and Celestial are higher and gain more widespread benefits.

I stuck to one race as an example in order not to cherry pick items against the items you stated were weighted in favor of humans. In fact, I'm more approving in general of lower ECLs, since it seems the higher the ECL, the more absurd they get. For only +1 ECL over a Half-Dragon, a Half-Fiend/Half-Celestial receives:
-6 extra ability scores each: Dex +4, Int +2 for Fiend, Dex +2, Con +2, Wis +4 (Str -4), Cha +2 for Celestial
-Multiple resistances (not full immunity to one type, but far more flexible - ask Hellball)
-Passive Damage Reduction (which increases at higher levels)
-Passive Spell Resistance that improves as they level
-Smite Good/Evil
-Free Spell-like Abilities
-Immunity to Poison/Disease

Tell me the above is worse than a single level, even an epic one.

Ability scores: Half-Dragon bonuses do lend themselves better to warrior races given a Dragon's natural strength but are no greater than non-Human benefits in other areas. They make decent Mages but pre-epic they are completely prevented from reaching level 9 spells, Rogues benefit from the skill point increase but otherwise their damage increase is minor, as +4 on most will not amount to much considering Rogues are almost always shit damage unless sneak attacking. +4 Str AB and damage is decent at lower levels for warriors but not as much as time goes on.

You can do the same thing with the standard races - a half-orc isn't the best choice for a mage, a dwarf sorcerer takes a dip in charisma. If you want an ECL better suited to a particular class, you can do it. I choose a martial build and Half-dragon for my examples because the initial comparisons you made to humans (BAB, HP, et al) lended themselves to it. The typical mage is not going to care about BAB much. As you stated before, Half-dragon is only a single ECL race of many. Want a better mechanical choice for cleric? Half-celestial has a built in Wis boost. Looking for a rogue, sure, you're better off with a half-fiend for the dex boost than half-dragon. Even if you're not favoring the boosted stats, the fact that they give you flexibility as extra available ability dumps allows you to just tank them and put ability points elsewhere at character creation.

There's a thin line between pre-epic and epic on CD anymore to my understanding. It was once a huge event requiring an ascension quest, now it's simply measured by time and character involvement/activity. Fact of the matter is, the mage may wait longer to access those spell levels, but it isn't like they are forever beyond reach (not to mention they can still access any level spell via a scroll).

+4 damage is again almost equivalent to another epic feat investment - Epic Weapon Specialization. You say "shit for damage", I say "that adds up over the course of multiple attacks and critical hits". The same goes for the +AB. Even if you continue to argue that they are "minor" boosts, they are extra perks not available to the stock races without significant investment.

More feats: I refer not to character creation, rather to the final hard cap feats at 18 and 30. That is one normal feat and one epic feat that a Half-Dragon misses out on. The normal feat may not be as potent as some of the bonuses received by the Half-Dragon but the epic feat certainly can be. There's a wide variety of epic feats in NWN that are tremendously useful, Armor Skin being one of them. Epic Damage Resistance, Great <Ability here> are others. These are, however, not necessarily going to be as powerful as some of the racial bonuses some ECL's get... but you are not paying an XP cost to get them either.

My point was, if you drop the XP argument (since you aren't locked out and can earn it regardless of pacing), you are effectively trading X class levels for X ECL. Your argument is that you lose two feats, my argument was you gain abilities to offset that, and those abilities are more powerful than the Epic options!

And you can stack the epic feats on top if you want. Armor Skin will go with your natural AC and free up a neck slot to do whatever you want with in the process.

I am paying XP to get my epic feats as a standard race. That's what my levels 28-30 are. As a half-dragon or whatever ECL you choose, you just got those levels upfront and are paying them over time. If you level both to max, it should work out to be the same total XP required.

And because epic feats do not take ECL into account a Half-Dragon actually gets its first epic feat 3 levels after it normally would, if they were Human. That is a massive time investment considering the slowness of gaining levels, especially if you do not regularly participate in DM plots. While a Human character may be sitting with, say, Epic Weapon Focus and Specialization for +2 AB and +4 damage if they were a multiclass Fighter at 21 and timed a bonus feat to apply at that level, the Half-Dragon will be choosing a normal feat and waiting months.. if not years given the slowness of some people progressing.

+2 AB and +4 damage, huh? Strange, I could have sworn the Half-Dragon STARTED with +4 AB and +4 damage, meaning he grabbed it far earlier than the human fighter did, and he still has the option of picking up those specialization feats if he wants later. (not too mention that just above you argued that +4 Damage and +4 AB was "decent for low levels but not so much at higher levels")

I know that's just an example, and there are epic feats that can't be granted via ECL, but the stat boosts alone are worth several "Great Ability X" epic feats.

Skill points: Other races get Intelligence bonuses too on creation, ECL or not. Sun Elves get +2 Intelligence. The comparison is a little faulty.

It wasn't faulty in the context you provided. You compared a human straight up to an ECL. Sun Elves also take a -2 penalty to Con. Apples to oranges.

I think they pay a high enough price for what they get, even if others disagree on that part, DM XP cap aside.

...and I am unconvinced a "high price" is being paid. At "best", many ECLs are getting power upfront in exchange for loaned experience that they pay out over time. I'm not here to argue to change anything, but I'm not going to run with the fallacy that ECLs are "punished".

Most all of these players have put some serious effort into properly playing the race they applied for, so I do not really care if they may be slightly more powerful, mechanically, at early levels.

Is the implication here that all ECL races are more effort to "properly play" than the standard races?

Your enjoyment of the game should not be increased or diminished because of what mechanical increases another player got. It should be increased by the diversity that character brings to the RP when they interact with others, providing a look at something other than a Human. They are special, even if they are accepted, and this is a high magic server.

The problem is, I'm sure there are applications that are purely pitched for mechanical reasons. I'm also not quite feeling the "diversity" angle when 90% of the special races are applied for in secret and most are kept hidden in game via cloak and hoods. Does "I'm a big scary half-vampire" really contribute more to a character than a personality or quirks. Not saying diversity is a bad thing, but race should never be a substitute for interesting character.

It also cheapens impact and interest when every other player is some sort of special half-breed, rather becoming the new norm. Gnomes are also a rarity on the server, but I see very few chomping at the bit to play one of those.

[trylobyte]

Aaah, ECL races.  What a subject, and one we'll never find harmony on.  Here's my take on them, in convenient, easily-debated bullet points.

1)  ECL races are too common.  This one doesn't need any explanation.  At any given time, 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters online have ECL races, sometimes more during slow times.  It used to be even higher in the recent past, during which the Square became known as the Aviary because of the number of winged PCs around there, but a resurgence of players has led to a leveling out of the ECL races at this level.

2)  ECL races seem like stat sticks first, roleplay potential second.  This is especially true the higher the ECL is, since the greater the ECL the exponentially greater the bonuses.  One of the questions the application asks is how the race affects the character's roleplay, and I think this is one most people don't take seriously.  With the exception of drow, most ECL races I see could be done almost identically if they weren't an ECL race at all, and sometimes nobody even knows ICly that the character is an ECL race.  This leads me to believe that the ECL race often isn't taken for roleplaying potential, since that's usually ignored, but is taken for all the lovely checkboxes on the character sheet.  Oddly, this sometimes inverts itself, to no less detriment - The ECL race is all the character is and is the only thing that makes them interesting.  Back to the Aviary days again, I remember a rash of half-dragon PCs that were among the most boring, flat, cardboard characters I'd ever seen - They had no personality beyond being half-dragon.

3)  The free availability of high ECL races renders other things obsolete.  Why would you be a tiefling or an aasimar when you could be a half-celestial or a half-fiend?  You get SO many more bonuses to every conceivable stat, and you get it all up front.  Compare aasimar (+4 stat points, Darkvision, +4 skill points, 15 points of resistances, Bless for one feat at level 9, wings for another feats at level 12) to half-celestial (+20 stat points, Darkvision, immunity to disease, 30 points of resistances, damage reduction 5/+1 increasing to 10/+1 at level 12, spell resistance 10+level, +4 Fort vs. poison, free wings, and a whole list of spell-like abilities including Resurrection at epic levels).  Well worth giving up three levels for.  And let's not get started on the fact that half-dragon is essentially 10 levels of dragon disciple without the prerequisite class for a 3-level penalty, making the entire dragon disciple class absolutely meaningless since it gets nothing half-dragon doesn't and has to give up 8 more levels (7 class levels and the one-level prerequisite) to do it.

4)  ECL races potentially affect balance, and especially quests.  Since they are so powerful for their level it can lead to a situation where the ECL character winds up making a 'normal' character feel useless, since even though they're roughly the same level they have better stats, better gear, and are generally better at everything.  This often holds true even when you account for the ECL - A level 12 half-dragon fighter is still better than a level 15 human fighter, statistically.  The only time this doesn't apply is with caster classes, where the ECL race will be a few levels behind until epic levels (then even that goes away).  Thus, this tends to be worse, and more noticeable, with non-casters than with casters.

[Garage Trashcan]

Sept 29, 2014 18:29:36 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Rather than ECLs, I'm more worried about the ratio of elven characters to non-elven characters.  Can we nerf elves, please?  (Sorry, just... couldn't resist.  Blame the lack of caffine.  I have no will.)

Time to bring back Elfmyr and the Elflands!

[Arya]

...And the next issue in addition to ECL and elves, the wemen character ratio compared to male character ratio. Can we start nerfing the female characters, too?

Oh. And dark colours to light colours on clothing are next. Let's nerf those, as well.

Real rants and whining against elves versus elves is another one.  Time to get rid of that.

*Deliberately makes a slippery slope of 'issues.' >.> Purposefully.*

Ahem, back to the original programming.

~Arya

[Deleted]

Sept 29, 2014 20:02:34 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

2)  ECL races seem like stat sticks first, roleplay potential second.  This is especially true the higher the ECL is, since the greater the ECL the exponentially greater the bonuses.  One of the questions the application asks is how the race affects the character's roleplay, and I think this is one most people don't take seriously.  With the exception of drow, most ECL races I see could be done almost identically if they weren't an ECL race at all, and sometimes nobody even knows ICly that the character is an ECL race.  This leads me to believe that the ECL race often isn't taken for roleplaying potential, since that's usually ignored, but is taken for all the lovely checkboxes on the character sheet.  Oddly, this sometimes inverts itself, to no less detriment - The ECL race is all the character is and is the only thing that makes them interesting.  Back to the Aviary days again, I remember a rash of half-dragon PCs that were among the most boring, flat, cardboard characters I'd ever seen - They had no personality beyond being half-dragon.

This offends me greatly.  If we play an ECL openly, we don't take the setting seriously.  If we hide the ECL characteristics, we're "not taking it for roleplaying potential."  You can't have it both ways.

As one of the ones who prefers playing her ECL characters concealed, the concealment IS roleplay potential.

Again, this comes down to a perception on other people's roleplay which, frankly, is nobody's concern beyond the admins.  Worrying about "proper" roleplay ruins everyone's fun.

This is a story server.  The important, story-line events, favor well-roleplayed, well-developed characters.  If all you're worrying about is the mechanics, you're missing the point.

[dom101]

Sept 29, 2014 21:58:24 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Sept 29, 2014 20:02:34 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

2)  ECL races seem like stat sticks first, roleplay potential second.  This is especially true the higher the ECL is, since the greater the ECL the exponentially greater the bonuses.  One of the questions the application asks is how the race affects the character's roleplay, and I think this is one most people don't take seriously.  With the exception of drow, most ECL races I see could be done almost identically if they weren't an ECL race at all, and sometimes nobody even knows ICly that the character is an ECL race.  This leads me to believe that the ECL race often isn't taken for roleplaying potential, since that's usually ignored, but is taken for all the lovely checkboxes on the character sheet.  Oddly, this sometimes inverts itself, to no less detriment - The ECL race is all the character is and is the only thing that makes them interesting.  Back to the Aviary days again, I remember a rash of half-dragon PCs that were among the most boring, flat, cardboard characters I'd ever seen - They had no personality beyond being half-dragon.

This offends me greatly.  If we play an ECL openly, we don't take the setting seriously.  If we hide the ECL characteristics, we're "not taking it for roleplaying potential."  You can't have it both ways.

As one of the ones who prefers playing her ECL characters concealed, the concealment IS roleplay potential.

Again, this comes down to a perception on other people's roleplay which, frankly, is nobody's concern beyond the admins.  Worrying about "proper" roleplay ruins everyone's fun.

This is a story server.  The important, story-line events, favor well-roleplayed, well-developed characters.  If all you're worrying about is the mechanics, you're missing the point.

I'm glad you pointed this out how you did, Bella.  I couldn't do so without coming off as a troll and turning it into a flame thread.  Thank you very much.

[Fire Wraith]

We're going to make it 1 for 1 on the level cap. Eve was already 28 (+4) when we decided to put that in, and at first we decided to come up with a way to basically grandfather that in, but I later decided it was better to just reduce her levels via some other RP in-game (she's presently 23+4).