Some thoughts on RP/Lore, IC vs OOC, and when it conflicts

[Edge]

Posting this here to avoid cluttering up the timeline thread itself.

Val, all references to Primordials are, I'm 99% sure, 4e canon and beyond only. Prior to that they were referred to as ancient gods or similar terms, but never using the Primordial name or the associated adjustments to their history with regards to an ancient Gods vs. Primordials war.

[Fire Wraith]

Yes, you have to be kind of careful, because they started retconning stuff into FR history and the timeline to make 4th Edition's stuff make sense, like it was all foretold (which is BS). They only started doing that about midway through 3.5, so like... any publication after 2006 or so, even if it's not supposedly 4th edition, may need to be taken with a grain of salt.

[valiea987]

That was something I was really torn up on as I went through what I've done so far, because a lot of this information that does occur in FR history, we don't learn about until after CDs era in comparable RL time. So the question I was wondering when approaching this was: Is something not canon because it is after 1372? Or is it not canon because we learn about it happening in the past in a later edition, even if that information is relevant to a time period that is in CD's history? After all, though we don't know they are primordials... (Edge you are definitely right, the source is the 4.0 FRCS) They are primordials, right? We just didn't know it at the time. So it is sort of the question between getting a snapshot of what we knew of the lore back in the early 2000s our time? Or should I be trying to get an accurate picture of the setting up to 1372 DR with all information we know about Faerun up to that point?

The book that the -vast- majority of this information is from is the Grand History of the Realms, which is a 3.5 book published in 2007, when the ingame setting was at 1375... So the book is giving information about Faerun from a time post-1372. Since virtually all of this would be missing, I wanted to go for the route of having all known information about the Realms up to 1372. But I can definitely see how it could be better to use more of a snapshot of what was known back in the early 2000s when 3.0 first hit, or when 3.5 first hit. I think when I finish it, I'll make a copy of the completed timeline with all information, and then skim it down to only information we knew back then when the ingame setting was at 1372.

Any opinions on that? Accuracy of the setting up to 1372 with all available information vs accuracy of the setting from when it was when 3.0/3.5 IRL? I can definitely see both.

Edit: Which stuff was retconned for 4e? I know they added in a "ooooohhhh the Sundering actually -also- went to the Future!" for the 5e setting. The only major retcon I remember is in 3.0 when FR was published with its own cosmological model and removed virtually all connections to Planechase stuff (at least according to Candlekeep's description of the 2e->3e transition).

[Edge]

They are primordials, right? We just didn't know it at the time.

That's actually really the point of contention.

If you ask a 4/5e player/GM, then usually the answer is yes, they were always Primordials, we just didn't know it.

But if you ask a 3e or prior player/GM who doesn't use 4/5e continuity, they'll usually say no, there's no such thing as Primordials, that was a 4e creation/retcon; the things they changed to call Primordials in the newer editions were just ancient gods in the older, with no universal thing that divided them from the rest of the Pantheon.

Since we are an exclusively 3.5-canon setting server, I recommend going with the latter, and avoiding references to anything such as Primordials that was established, changed, or renamed in the 4e conversion.

[valiea987]

Alright, going to gut the list substantially. I tend to use the full breadth of lore, and just make the edition be the cut off point, and then people think about what they know about things at that point (such as the Great Wheel cosmology is believed in 1358, but the World Tree is actually what is going on, it just isn't discovered until the 1360s and 1370s with the 2e->3e shift. It doesn't mean, at least to me, that the World Tree wasn't there in 2.0, it just means people in that time period didn't know about it yet).

Give me a bit, and I'll edit the changes in.

[Fire Wraith]

Yeah, that's pretty much the jist of it. To me, they rewrote all of FR for 4th edition, and made sweeping retroactive changes. I don't accept those, and nor have we as CD been willing to accept those for our game - which predated the changes they were making, for one.

Things like... there never was a separation of two parallel worlds, "Abeir-Toril" is just a fancier name for the same world, the way it always was until they took some obscure 1st edition reference and retconned a bunch of stuff behind it.

Things like the gods really are separate - Sehanine isn't Selune, Talos isn't Gruumsh, or any of that BS (though divine portfolios can merge, be absorbed, gods can die off, etc, just none of that stuff from 4th).

[Edge]

Augh, I'd forgotten about the "X god was really Y in disguise all along!" retcons.... haaaaaaaate... hate hate hate hate hate...!!

[valiea987]

Okay, so then I would like a tiny bit of clarification for updating this:

Can we consider all earlier edition lore canon, insofar as it doesn't conflict or get changed by a later edition, with 3.5e being the final say on whatever question is presented?

So for example, there are only 3 FRCS, the 2e, the 3e, and the 4e. From what I can see, there's no unique 3.5 FRCS, but there is a 3.5 player's guide. So, can we take the 3e FRCS as canon unless one the 3.5 FR source books is in conflict? So the 3.5 FR source book overrides the 3.0 FRCS, but if the 3.5 source books have no say on the matter, then we can go with the 3.0 FRCS content?

Another big one is the Crown Wars. The 3.0 FRCS dedicates a paragraph to the Crown Wars, while most of the information on the wiki about them comes from stuff like the 2e book Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, or the 2e novel Evermeet: Island of the Elves which gives all the backstory about arrival of the elves to Toril and the Sundering which created Evermeet... Are these sources valid since they expand in detail upon content that 3.0 and 3.5 books don't retcon?

And last big thing to ask: The 3.5 book The Grand History of the Realms was released in 2007 and in FR time, was 1375ish. Is this book canon for all information up to 1372? If not, are all 3.5 books which are past 1372 not canon?

Thanks, knowing the answer to this will help a lot in making this timeline as CD friendly as possible!

[Fire Wraith]

In the absence of anything from the 3.0 FRCS overruling them, 2e and earlier sources are perfectly valid. There wasn't much in the way of retconning done until you get to 4th edition. We've used a lot of 2e sources, as well as 1st edition sources, in making CD.

Lastly - anything printed from 2006 on is suspect. The Grand History of the Realms is a classic example of one of the products they put out where they tried to ram in a bunch of retcon-y stuff in preparation for 4th Edition. You're much better off using the timelines from the earlier 3rd/2nd/1st edition works.

[Fire Wraith]

Oh, and we also still use the classic Planescape Great Wheel cosmology, not anything FR specific from 3rd edition. Any FR planes are found on their respective Great Wheel Counterparts, or generally in proximity thereabouts. This includes things like the Fugue, etc - they exist, but they're somewhere either on an existing plane, or as an adjacent plane/subplane/demiplane/etc.

In short, any place referenced in 3e's cosmology exists, and so does anything related to Sigil/the classic Great Wheel, and so forth. Forgotten Realms sites have their significance, so for instance, the Fugue is where all dead souls go to first. It's located somewhere near/on/attached to Concordant Opposition. Brightwater exists, and is a part of Arborea/Olympus/etc. The Demonweb Pits exist, and are a plane of the Abyss. Etc etc...

What does this mean? Well, really the only significant difference is in whether you can travel from Plane A to Plane B, and how difficult it is. We tend to use the Great Wheel setup for that, is the answer, but there are portals to/from all sorts of places, especially Sigil.

[valiea987]

Yeah, putting this up on a post for new players would be really nice (as SO mentioned, but deleted), because personally, if I knew, I wouldn't have even started here to be honest. When I first heard someone say the Wheel was still something characters in CD believe in 1378 DR, I asked Vincent, and he said this is 3.5 and to go by the 3.5 cosmological model of the World Tree. Letting people know ahead of time would be nice so they don't do as I did and get into something that they don't want to be a part of. Probably best for someone else to make the timeline, someone more in tuned with how you all are applying the lore.

[Fire Wraith]

Part of this is that it hasn't come up, because for the most part, what we use is a system designed to incorporate enough of both. We weren't going to just throw out Sigil and Planescape, because a lot of our players and DMs happen to like using those settings. I personally don't see any reason why the two have to be exclusionary.

I've told you several times that, yes, the Fugue is the destination of all souls in our setting, just like it is in 3/3.5 FRCS and follow on supplements. Kelemvor has his city there, with the wall of the faithless and all.

Sigil also happens to be a place, with lots of portals. There are also a LOT of other planes out there, because it's a very big multiverse.

I'm really not sure why this is such a massive problem. None of it invalidates anything with any character created in the mindset of the FRCS. In fact, that's sort of the point - this is the compromise we/I came up with to explain and make coherent the fact that people have been freely using and mixing both 3e and Planescape cosmology from the beginning of the server, in order to not just invalidate what the vast majority had played out.

[Darvins]

Sept 16, 2015 11:44:18 GMT -5 Dismus said:

Book 3: I missed a bunch of the beginning as it was elven focused for a while and didn't have an elf. I know that at some point at the begining Algon Griff sacrificed himself to prevent a mountain from destroying Suzail. It ended with a major cooperation between the Elves, Eliastreans, Purple Dragon PCs and, certain adventurers in defense of Velethuil and Berrybriar and a counter attack on the Matron. Anivaro and Zander coordinated (probably the hardest and most fun RP of my life) between the groups with many meetings at the Temple of Thundarlun and the Purple Dragon Barracks. Galdern led the Elven mages in a magical defense if I remember right. Anivaro led an assualt on the Matron with elves and adventurers. Zander led the Purple Dragons in an outer defense of Velethuil. Wulgar led the defense of Berrybriar. It ended with the defeat of the Matron and a large celebration afterwards. I am not sure what happened with other pcs but, Zander was given Sha'quessir (spelling) status and Knighted as a Purple Dragon Knight. The biggest take from it all was it was the first united fight against an enemy combining the elves of Velethuil and the adventurers of Cormyr.

Scary thing about the plot and a tribute to Arya Algons death was maybe the halfway point, but it was that point of escalation from an Elf problem to a Server problem. Key moments from prior to that. i would say the biggest one would be the Treehouse, changing from Vhaerunite to Lolthite controlled, and no one is quite sure if they are better off or not. On the one hand the Lolthites are more powerful and dangerous on the other hand, it had the nickname Treehouse of horror for a reason, and the Vhaerunites where truely... foul. In the end tis likely a wash, the Lolthites are more powerful but they will just kill you or enslave you.

Other than that I'd also say that key moments I witnessed would be the embaresment of the Shevarash worshippers and their later redemption. Many of the Cult in the region followed a man who later turned out to have been under the control of the Spider Queen. They later redeemed themselves leading a suicide charge into the Underdark buying a group of adventurers time to get out with vital information that later saved Velethuil.

And lastly the defeat of the Matron as mentioned included a multi front battle against the forces of the underdark not just Drow by this point, that while won, did lead to the loss of the Elven Elder that had been acting as the general of Velethuils fight against the Matron both at first behind the scenes and later on the battlefield. That and it may be useful to note that Velethuil is now protected by a Mythal that makes it very difficult for Drow to enter, even if they are Eilistraeens.

There was a lot more but obviously the main bits are stuff that still might affect players today. (Algon I believe became a Saint for example so that may impact folks faithful to Ilmater)

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2015 23:20:21 GMT -5 valiea987 said:

Yeah, putting this up on a post for new players would be really nice (as SO mentioned, but deleted), because personally, if I knew, I wouldn't have even started here to be honest. When I first heard someone say the Wheel was still something characters in CD believe in 1378 DR, I asked Vincent, and he said this is 3.5 and to go by the 3.5 cosmological model of the World Tree. Letting people know ahead of time would be nice so they don't do as I did and get into something that they don't want to be a part of. Probably best for someone else to make the timeline, someone more in tuned with how you all are applying the lore.

forums.cormyrdalelands.com/index.php?topic=142

Dec 13, 2013 17:49:08 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

We are presently in winter/spring of 1378 DR.  Some of the more recent events are not canon on CD. (specifically between 1372-1374DR)

Forgotten Realms Chronology


CD disregards most official Canon post 1372, when we launched.  Though it did not take place on the server, we do acknowledge that Lolth's Silence happened off-camera.


A note on the FR Wiki:  Most of the content there has been infected with the 4th Ed. update and is thus not relevant to CD.

[valiea987]

Oh great, so there is a timeline already made which is what Onivel was looking for, though with an added section about the timeline on CD so far since 1372. It would be nice to add a note to that page about the peculiar arrangement of the unique cosmology used here as described by Fire up above.