Constructing a CD Class Tier List

[trylobyte]

Greetings!

During one of the mechanical debates in Discord, I proposed the idea of making a tier list of the various classes available on CD.  This would help us figure out which classes are generally considered overwhelmingly powerful and which classes are in desperate need of attention, which would allow for more targeted future updates.  But nobody is an expert in every class.  That's why I'd like to put this out to the whole of the server.  What classes do you have a strong opinion on?

The Tiers:  These are the approximate power levels of a class.  How good are they?

God-Tier:  The game-breakers.

- There is never any reason to not take this class if it fits.

- Has a large number of powerful advantages and few or minor drawbacks.

- Nearly impossible to screw up.

- Imbalances an average party just by showing up.

High Tier:  The strong classes.

- A solid choice for all occasions.

- Has powerful advantages and minor drawbacks.

- Almost always useful and easily incorporated into many builds.

- Always going to be a top performer in any party.

Mid Tier:  The averagest.

- A solid choice either by itself or mixed with other classes.

- Has a balance of advantages and drawbacks.

- Usefulness is almost entirely based around game knowledge and build.

- Always useful in a party, but usually doesn't stand out.

Low Tier:  The weak classes.

- Only strong in certain builds or special cases.

- Has more or larger disadvantages than advantages.

- Requires a good amount of game knowledge to become useful.

- May vary from 'welcome addition' to 'completely useless.'

Bottom Tier:  The sad pandas.

- Almost never useful, or outclassed by every alternative.

- Has more and larger disadvantages than advantages.

- Requires a good amount of game knowledge to become average.

- Generally useless and may be a liability to a party.

Please include your reasoning when you submit an opinion, and please try only to submit classes you have played for a while and have experience with on this server.  Thank you!

[trylobyte]

My personal takes.

God Tier:

Swordmage.  Swordmage gets everything - Full BAB, infinite spellcasting, the ability to hit every kind of element, large AC bonuses, relative gear independence, and inbuilt multi-classing potential.  Their abilities target the lowest type of AC, can't be Evaded, and ignore SR.  They're also a Charisma-based class, which allows for very easy and reliable use of Use Magic Device, allowing them to cast nearly anything they can get a scroll of.  Roll all this in with a good skill selection and you have a class that can do it all.

Eldritch Knight.  It's Wizard but better in every single way.  There is no reason a wizard should not have levels of Eldritch Knight if it's at all possible for them to get it.

High Tier:

Full arcane casters not mentioned somewhere else.  Full arcane casters are always top-tier for good reason.  A powerful toolkit that can deal with nearly anything if they're prepared correctly and a wide array of powerful epic spells that can change the course of a battle.

Cleric.  Played well they're just as obnoxious as an arcane caster, with a focus more towards unstoppable crowd control like Word of Faith and party buffs like Crusade.  They make up for their weaker spells by being able to melee effectively and can often replicate a Heal spell twice per round with a healing kit at epic levels.

Mid-Tier:

Fighter.  The quintessential dip class (though not the best one) and in my opinion the single most average class in NWN and on CD.  Its usefulness is entirely down to what you choose to do with it since the entire point of the class is giving you options and enabling various strategies and melee gameplay styles.  It's rarely a bad choice, sometimes an optimal one, but not one that's commonly focused in since there are superior alternatives to going pure fighter, such as taking Weaponmaster or making a pure barbarian.

Low Tier:

Rogue. Only useful as a low-level dip to see traps you couldn't see otherwise, or in certain stealth and sneak-attack-focused builds. Bard is better for everything else, getting access to more skills, the same bonus feats at the same levels, and more abilities plus inherent spells. Sneak Attack isn't great when a large chunk of the server is immune to it, but it can be useful for picking off casters in epic dungeons which partially redeems it. The only big thing they have going for them is Crippling Strike, and even that is only limited to things that can be sneak-attacked.  May have the hardest leveling path of any class.

Bottom Tier:

Druid.  Their unique abilities don't scale and their unique spells usually don't work.  Most of their utility spells and buffs are one level higher what they would be for a cleric or mage, meaning they take longer to get fewer of them.  Their associated skills, Animal Empathy and Knowledge Nature, are almost never used outside of themed quests.  They also come with a lot of RP restrictions that can make finding and equipping them at early levels very difficult unless you just throw those RP restrictions out the window.  Almost entirely inferior to a Cleric of a nature god.

[Edge]

High Tier

Bard. An immensely versatile class with a great deal of capability in several roles. Can easily be a melee or ranged combatant, comes with a steady supply of useful buffs and the ability to access almost every scroll on the server with ease (and in many cases, even without investing in UMD... though why you wouldn't, I have no idea), can be a high-AC frontliner or a sneaky stealthy scout, has a ton of multiclass potential both as a dip and as the primary class around a dip into Rogue or one of various many options for higher combatant (the best of which, by far, have to be 4 levels in Divine Champion or Blackguard for the CHA-to-saves bonus as well as Full BAB and reaching the fabled +16), access to Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at low levels, the ability to buff itself and allies with Bard Song to increase almost everything they do (AB, AC, Skills, Saves, the works) as well as use Curse Song to decrease the same to enemies.

I could go on but I think this speaks for itself. A well-built Bard can be just as powerful, just as helpful to a party, and just as all-around useful as a Cleric.

On the other hand, it's one of those classes you can screw up royally if you don't know what you're doing or do it completely wrong, and a poorly-built Bard can be more akin to a Rogue or Fighter than any of the higher-tier classes, which admittedly might limit its ranking.

[Nokteronoth]

I dislike shoehorning classes into 'tiers' because it isn't nearly that easy. They all have their own roles to play in a party, and while some can solo things mechanically, they can't exactly do what others can. That's the beauty of D&D, it's working together to accomplish things in a fantasy setting. You can mix and match and do a ridiculous amount of intermixing, a lot of which has to do with class synergy. Since lists like this only list one class on its own merit, a lot of things go understated or overstated.

However, if you're looking to fit things into this narrow definition of classes, there's a way to shove it all in to make it fit.

God-Tier:  The game-breakers.
Swordmage (Though it will likely have some tweaking yet.)
Hospitaler
Eldrich Knight
Bard
Rogue
Battlerager
Weapon Master
Barbarian

High Tier:  The strong classes.
Cleric
Fighter
Ranger
Invisible Blade
Shadowdancer
Assassin
Wizard
Sorcerer
Arcane Archer
Dragon Disciple

Mid Tier:  The averagest.
Shadow Adept
Arcane Trickster
Divine Champion
Pale Master
Mystic Theurge
Blackguard
Shifter
Duelist
Doomguide
Monk
Paladin

Low Tier:  The weak classes.
Red Wizard of Thay
Druid
Silverstar of Selune
Heartwarder
Bladesinger
Dwarven Defender

Bottom Tier:  The sad pandas.
Purple Dragon Knight
Harper Mage
Harper Priest
Divine Seeker
Divine Disciple
Disciple of Meph

~BR

[Edge]

I'm extremely curious how Rogue got so high on the list.

[Nokteronoth]

As Trylo laid out the categories:

God-Tier:  The game-breakers.

- There is never any reason to not take this class if it fits.

- Has a large number of powerful advantages and few or minor drawbacks.

- Nearly impossible to screw up.

- Imbalances an average party just by showing up.

Rogue:
- Need to deal with traps? Rogue only. Need UMD? Rogue. Want sneaking skills? Rogue. 
- Not many drawbacks. Moderate BAB, moderate HP, Reflex saves are always useful, extra sneak attack damage.
- Real hard to fuck up a rogue. Get some DEX (Or STR), learn how to flank.
- Ever see how much DPS a high level rogue does? Get any one with HIPS and you can pretty much say goodbye to crittable monsters, and traps are made useless.

~BR

[Edge]

And while that all looks good on paper, it doesn't really pan out that well in practice.

Rogues have a lot of trouble hitting in combat that other 3/4 BAB classes lack, due to limited ways of buffing themselves, and what tricks they can use are typically UMDing another class's trick, which the other class - usually Bard or Wizard - is generally better at doing, and the Rogue is a poor man's copy thereof.

Sneak Attack is of extremely limited use on CD given so many things are immune to it.

Bard is better than Rogue at everything except traps, and only then because NWN is strictly coded to force you to have a Rogue level to deal with traps of certain DCs and higher. This goes double on CD, where Bard has been significantly buffed.

And without HIPS - which is not a Rogue trick, it's something they need to pick up from another class, either of which can be also gotten into by a Bard or Ranger or even a particularly determined Wizard - their utility drops off severely. Even with Wizard casting backing them up, ATs are visibly (pardon the pun) hampered by the lack of access to HIPS.

When they're good, they're good. But the number of times on CD that they are good is extremely limited, and when they're not good, they're pretty much useless and easily outclassed by almost any other class.

I most DEFINITELY do not find them "imbalancing" to add to a group, especially not to the level that a Swordmage or a well-built Cleric does. Speaking as a DM, I have never once had to re-adjust my quest encounters to account for having a Rogue in the party. Not once, in the nearly 15 years I've been DMing on CD. I add traps, mostly "to give the rogue something roguey to do", but that's about it.

On a server with a PvP focus, I can see Rogues being beastly, especially if they have the same access to UMDable buffs as we do. But on a PvE focused server, especially one as heavy on undead, elementals, and constructs as CD is in the higher levels, they just don't measure up. And since this is a "CD class tier list" and not a "NWN in general class tier list", I can't in all honesty ever agree with them being even a high-tier class, much less a god-tier one.

[Nokteronoth]

Rogue has a completely different skillset.

They can focus more on traps, spotting, or social skills. Bards -need- Perform, and usually Discipline, Concentration, and Spellcraft. Rogues have a fuckton of skill points they can put into Bluff, UMD, Set Trap, Disable Trap, Spot, Search, etc.

You don't -need- HIPS to cornersneak and work as if you do. It's a bit of a pain in the ass, but you can work just as effectively without it.

And while a lot of things are sneak immune on CD, there's a good deal that aren't. And that's where rogue can shine, either with DEX builds or crit-heavy STR ones.

I'd argue that a rogue is almost always a viable class for any party, for most any dungeon. They can sneak and attack 'from invisibility' with hiding, and that negates a lot of their AB problems. They can also get Epic Dodge without cross-classing, opening them up to more possibilities. Any of the other options - monk, SD, Assassin, all need Rogue or one of the others to handle the other feats.

~BR

[Edge]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see either of us convincing the other at this rate.

[Deleted]

*applauds Nok*  Exactly!

I've had the same arguement with him and basically it comes down to... Edge doesn't like/understand playing rogues the way we do.  

[autokilla]

i feel rogues can be great, either at high tier or god tier HOWEVER! it is very hard to get started on them without friends. very hard to solo lvl up to the point where they are as good as they can be late game. just my opinion though

[Mystic Warden]

I would place sorcerer one step behind wizard for the sole reason of their issues with PrCs. Otherwise I think they are indeed quite equal. Wizard pumps up INT which gives him a lots of extra skillpoints as a side effect while sorcerer pumps up CHA which gives him a very decent UMD skill with just a minimum skill point investment.

I would also put ranger on pair with fighter as being a typical dip class for those who have a DEX build but want/need to expand on their melee abilities.

[lurkerabove]

From playing one as my main for a while now, I would actually put Arcane Trickster squarely in the strong tier since the rebalancing.

Before rebalancing, they were crippled by 1/2 BAB progression and d4 hit dice, which made them inaccurate, glass cannons. The only thing that mitigated the AB was the fact that you would likely be fighting with Finesse weapons, so you're getting most of your good stuff tied to DEX which is your primary ability; but one good crit from a monster at your level break would lay you out. Add to that the fact that two of the abilities -- Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack -- were broken and useless, respectively.

After rebalance, I'd say it's definitely a stronger class. You have rogue DPS, with two of the rogue bonus feats by the time you cap the class, that can buff themselves, and loading spell slots with Tensers makes them downright beastly. With a tank, a Trickster can own anything that can be critted.

The balance is that you have to know how to gear one, and that can be tricky because lacking DM equipment you mostly have to pick rogue, or wizard gear. Gear heavy on the rogue side, then you don't have the slots to throw around the buffs. Gear too heavy on the wizard side, and you suck at doing the things rogues do, like locks and traps.

[trylobyte]

Regarding my opinion on Rogue, here's my reason for ranking it so low.  I'll compare god-tier vs. low-tier for bullet-point convenience.


- There is never any reason to not take this class if it fits.
Vs.
- Only strong in certain builds or special cases.

Rogue doesn't fit my definition of a god-tier class because, simply, taking Rogue levels does not automatically improve a build (not as much as Bard does anyway) and a pure rogue is not automatically a good character.  Rogue is situationally good and even then may not be the ideal choice for that situation.  I'm not saying it can't be viable, I'm just saying it's not always a good choice and when it is there are generally better oners, which makes it much more of a low-tier class.


- Has a large number of powerful advantages and few or minor drawbacks.
Vs.
- Has more or larger disadvantages than advantages.

Rogue has few drawbacks, but the drawbacks it has are very significant.  Against anything immune to sneaks or crits, which is a large part of the server's mid-level content and at least one epic dungeon, a rogue is minimally effective.  They also have great difficulty keeping up with high-AC enemies and often have to spend a large amount of gold on consumable items, and they come with with one of the roughest leveling curves on CD. And in exchange for all these disadvantages, the things they get exclusively (trap detection) or do better than everyone else (sneak damage) are limited in their general usefulness here owing to the fact few quests or dungeons make extensive use of traps and there are a lot of undead, constructs, and elementals around.  These are all meaningful disadvantages that can make Rogue very hard to play.


- Nearly impossible to screw up.
Vs.
- Requires a good amount of game knowledge to become useful.

Rogue might be the easiest class to screw up due to the huge number of bad choices all those skill points and feats let you make, a drawback of being one of the most versatile classes.  They have to be played in a fairly specific way to be good, and while they are good when played that way they are pretty useless without that knowledge and without the ability to replicate certain abilities consistently.  A lot of the things that make rogues good require specific higher-level game knowledge to use effectively, like corner-sneaking.


- Imbalances an average party just by showing up.
Vs.
- May vary from 'welcome addition' to 'completely useless.'

My personal experience with rogues, both playing them and watching them, is very similar to Edge's.  They can be a welcome addition, such as when you go to a dungeon with a lot of sneak and crit-vulnerable things that don't have amazing AC (Gnolls) or when you're dealing with a lot of high-DC traps (Certain quests).  Other times though, they're not very useful at all (Thunderstone or Wyvernspur) and you'd be better off with most of the 'average' classes.

[Yaldabaoth]

To throw in on the Rogue discussion, my experience with playing them and seeing others play them is that Sneak Attack hardly makes them damage deities, it just keeps them competitive.  Occasionally getting a burst of 80+ damage is mitigated by the fact that you will probably miss quite a bit as you lack BAB and don't have a wealth of Attack Bonus boosting options available to you, beyond scrolls of Emotion Hope/Courage and extremely short term consumables like scrolls of True Strike.  Other classes, like Weapon Master, are perfectly capable of not only getting those same impressive bursts of damage, but also putting out a much higher average DPS simply by being able to hit things.