NPC Classes (Specifically, Expert)

[truly]

I'm sure we're all familiar with the NPC classes as presented in the DMG: Commoner, Expert, Noble, and Adept. I'm not certain it's a good idea to implement a Noble player class, and Commoner is usually best handled by being level 1 and not adventuring. Adept might be a viable thing, though less-powerful than usual spellcasters. But the thing I really want is the Expert. 

As a human cleric with a base Int of 10, my character gets 3 skill points per level. And, due to the nature of this character, I'd gladly sacrifice a level to get some extra skill points. I could consider taking bard (though I'm lawful, so I can't) or rogue (which doesn't wholly fit a priest of Ilmater), but it would make a lot more sense to say, "I've spent this level honing my skills" and drop that level into Expert. 


My recommendation is to make it a prestige class which:
##Requires character level 4 to enter,
##Has all skills as class skills, and
##Has however many skill points per level the rogue has (or the core Expert has, it that's more).

This keeps people from grabbing it at first level and maxing skill points (whether this is the intent, or they fall into a trap), and makes sure they have an adventuring class. It gives them a load of flexibility in skills that the Expert class is meant to represent, without doing a bunch of coding (core, the player picks 10 class skills for their Expert levels), and dumps a pocket full of skill points on them. 

It's not a good fit for everybody, but neither is bard or rogue. That's the point. But for me, and my character, we'd love to drop a level or three into expert to boost our Knowledge, Tumble, and Appraise skills, since the 3 skill points per level are basically dedicated to Heal, Concentration, and Spot. 

My two coppers. 

[onivel]

I actually like this. It is a good class also for the "non adventuring" types who want to RP a more "common" person.

One exclusion I would like to make is UMD should not be an allowed skill for this class. 

[trylobyte]

Here's PnP Expert:

Expert:
BAB:  3/4
Saves:  Will high, Fort and Reflex low
Skill Points:  6 + Int per level, x4 at level 1
Hit Die:  d6
Proficiencies:  Simple weapons, Light armor.
Class Skills:  Experts can choose any 10 skills as class skills.  They have no class skills by default.


The main problem I could see with making this a class is its unbelievable multiclassing potential.  It would be amazing to be able to take skills like Tumble, Discipline, or UMD, or even Search, Open Lock, or Hide and Move Silently.  This would be the class for skill-dumping builds that save a skillpoint or two every level then multiclass once and dump all those free skillpoints into one skill.  I already know people can do this with Rogue, true, but Expert would become the best multiclass option for classes desperately seeking Discipline (which rogue doesn't get) because of Fighter's terrible skillpoints per level and most other Discipline classes having alignment restrictions.  It would also be almost mandatory for those seeking to invest in Knowledge Netheril since nobody gets it as a class skill. 

[Deleted]

Somewhat new here, but my two-and-a-half pennies.

Make tumble, move silently, hide, spellcraft and discipline cross class for it and UMD excluded. That will limit the usefulness of skill dumping.

I'd leave disable trap and open lock as class skills, as the NWN engine will prevent non-rogues from opening locks over a certain DC (its 20 I think) so even if someone wants to dump it, they have to rogue a level to get those.

Everything else just adds a cool factor to a character that wants to 'semi-retire' to a craft, or as a sage, midwife, merchant etc.

[onivel]

Oct 10, 2015 16:00:19 GMT -5  @oldwindbreaker said:

Somewhat new here, but my two-and-a-half pennies.

Make tumble, move silently, hide, spellcraft and discipline cross class for it and UMD excluded. That will limit the usefulness of skill dumping.

I'd leave disable trap and open lock as class skills, as the NWN engine will prevent non-rogues from opening locks over a certain DC (its 20 I think) so even if someone wants to dump it, they have to rogue a level to get those.

Everything else just adds a cool factor to a character that wants to 'semi-retire' to a craft, or as a sage, midwife, merchant etc.

+1

[Nokteronoth]

I'd also not allow them to take Knowledge: Ancient Netheril as not a single other class gets it. Makes it incredibly unfair for those who have had to cross-class their points no matter what and still have a really crappy score with it.

Otherwise it could be interesting.

~BR

[Fire Wraith]

Knowledge Netheril is cross-class for everyone by design, yes.

I'm not sure how I feel about the balance in a class that gets full skill access with Rogue points. We might be able to do something like give it a wide array of non-physical skills, to better mimic Sage levels or the like (or perhaps call it something on those lines?). We're certainly not going to be able to replicate the PnP version on a one for one basis, since each class has its class/crossclass skills hardcoded.

There's also the question of what feats it has access to (if any).

[trylobyte]

I just went and looked this up now, and found something interesting - The only skills that Expert gets that rogues don't would be Animal Empathy, Concentration, Discipline, Perform, Ride, Spellcraft, and Taunt.  If you throw Bard in there too, that list shrinks to... Animal Empathy and Ride.  We already have pretty much everything covered between those two classes.

The best way to handle this might be to make the concept into a prestige class.  I'll pitch an idea here, though I have no idea how hard it might be to code so don't take it too seriously.  Just a vision for how I see something like this being done.



Scholar
Choosing a different path from most adventurers, the Scholar focuses on the development of their skills rather than the development of their combat abilities.  Though not the best fighters, a Scholar's knowledge is in high demand.

Hit dice: d6
Proficiencies: simple weapons, light armor
Skill points: 8 + int modifier
Skills: All
Primary saving throw(s): Will
Base attack bonus: +1/2 levels

Requirements
To qualify as a Scholar, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:
Feats: Skill Focus (Any 2)
Skills: Lore 10 ranks

Bonuses
Exceptional Focus:  A Scholar gets an additional Skill Focus as a bonus feat at level 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9.

Level 1:  Scholar's Intuition:  Once per day a Scholar can choose to substitute a skill they know for a related skill they do not (e.g. substituting Knowledge Arcana for Spellcraft) and roll that skill instead.  This is a situational ability and the DM has the final call on what is or is not relevant.  This increases to twice a day at fourth level and three times a day at seventh level.  This is a roleplay-only ability.
Level 2:  Ancient Lore:  A Scholar can use Legend Lore as a spell-like ability once per day.  This increases to three times per day at level 7.
Level 3:  Improved Skill Focus:  A Scholar gains a +2 bonus to all skills they have Skill Focus in.  This increases to +4 at level 6 and +6 at level 9.
Level 4:  Scholar's Intuition 2
Level 5:  Omnidisciplined: A Scholar gains 1 rank in all skills they do not have any ranks in and is considered Trained in all skills.
Level 6:  Improved Skill Focus 2
Level 7:  Scholar's Intuition 3, Ancient Lore 2
Level 8:  Subject Mastery:  A Scholar becomes unrivaled in their knowledge of a particular discipline and gains Epic Skill Focus in one skill even if they do not meet the prerequisites.
Level 9:  Improved Skill Focus 3
Level 10:  Supreme Scholar:  When making a skill check in a skill they have Skill Focus in, a Scholar rolls twice and takes the higher result.  Once per day they may choose to take 20 on any skill check for a skill they have Skill Focus in.  This is a roleplay-only ability.

[foo]

We might be able to get around the massive multiclassing potential by creating a couple of different 'expert' classes, IE Expert(Crafter), Expert(scholar), Expert(Acrobat) and kint of break up the class skills so that a blacksmith has crafting, knowledge, and lore based skills, while acrobats get tumble, ride, and other movement based skills, and scholar gets knowlege, lore, UMD, and becomes like a wimpy wizard with no spells

[truly]

Hang on a second, can I remind you all that people who want to min/max and "skill dump" will just take a level in bard or rogue? Considering the point of Ancient Netheril to to be difficult and restricted, sure, make that cross-class. But I think even UMD ought to be a class skill here. If someone wants it to simply make their character more powerful, rather than it being a good fit in-character, they'll simply take a level of rogue.

Keep in mind, you're sacrificing a level of a useful class just to get some skill points, which (again) could be gotten by grabbing the rogue levels instead. So if you're a spellcaster, you're missing out of spellcasting improvement, if you're a fighter, you're missing out on attack increase and feats. You're not getting a rogue's sneak attack/evasion or a bard's music/lore/spells, so this is offset by having access to all (except Ancient Netheril) skills.

Also, if you're already multiclassed, this is likely going to force you to change your build, or suffer XP penalties. For a class that is strictly a worse option than taking a level of rogue, and only exists to provide RP flavour, let's not make it even worse than it already is.

Otherwise, I'll find a way to shoehorn in that Rogue level instead of ever bothering to take Expert. And so will anyone else.

(Also, I don't know how hard coding is, I'm not a programmer. But it doesn't seem worth it to me to create a class with a bunch of new abilities, that interact with other things in unique ways, which requires some one to take SKill Focus twice. I'm trying to make things easier, not harder.)

[trylobyte]

The issue that I see is that you're essentially asking for a downgraded Rogue class, so you can take Rogue without actually taking Rogue.  I'd allow it just fine in tabletop but coding, scripting, balancing, and updating the haks with a new class (especially a base class, which would also need a first-level leto if you wanted to make a pure Expert) is an awful lot of work for what is essentially a niche case.  The Expert class wouldn't really add anything in NWN, unlike in tabletop where you have five times as many skills to choose from.  It's essentially Rogue without Sneak Attack and Trapfinding.  That's why I made the Scholar concept above - It gives someone who wants to focus on non-combat efforts a way to do so, and to be better at it than combatants through new and unique mechanics.  I mean, if Vince wants to add it that's fine, but I'd prefer to see a class that adds something distinctive.

[Edge]

Long story short not-so-short:

The admins - most specifically Vincent, who does almost all of our coding and most of our hak work - already have a LOT of things on their plates at this time, and even considering something like this is extremely low-priority, doubly so since you can accomplish this effectively with the available classes such as Bard and Rogue. Actually implementing it, as a result, is even lower priority, and would be slotted well behind a great deal of other things currently on the waiting list, including but not limited to implementing the new hak content, new scripts, the constant work of finding and correcting spell errors, completing Warlock and Swordmage, and creating and adding new dungeons.

Not all Rogues are thieves, and taking a level in the class does not lock a character into that kind of RP. This would be easier to display if we had something like Archetypes or Alternate Class Features or whatever, but unfortunately that's not really an option.

Add into this that we are really, really not interested in providing "NPC Class" options to players. That's... not really the kind of RP we are interested in fostering here. We have enough characters who sit around and talk and don't really adventure all that much (and I'll be honest, I've done it myself, especially in times like right now when I am on heavy overtime and my limited playtime is usually somewhat stifled by me being OOCly exhausted), the last thing we really want to provide is classes that encourage non-adventurer character concepts in a world built for PC adventurers.

Our recommendation for characters seeking more skill points to spend is to multiclass into Bard or Rogue, start with a higher Intelligence at character creation, and/or play Humans. Creating a new class pretty much exclusively for the purpose of allowing more skill dumping and/or increasing the skills/skill points available to a character is not really an effective use of our resources. We would rather spend that time/effort on creating new Prestige Classes, new base classes that offer options truly not currently available like the previously-mentioned Warlock and Swordmage, and on other things such as the stuff mentioned in the first paragraph.

That, and Rogue is already suffering enough from "struggling to be useful" syndrome in a lot of places on CD as-is. Giving it yet another class to compete against in the "skill monkey" role, on top of Bard and Ranger, is kind of shooting the poor class in the knee after you've already broken an ankle.

So yeah, this is very much likely not going to happen.

[Mystic Warden]

One more thing to consider is that if you take this hypothetical Expert class or PrC than you used up one of your three available classes. In PnP it is not a problem for example to have your 10th lvl character being lvl 2 from five different classes. (At least not game mechanic wise, to support it with proper RP is an other story.)

Maybe we could make an expert class by taking a lvl of rogue than LETO out Sneak Attack and Trapfinding, instead adding two Skill Focus feats? If that is possible, I am no expert on coding and LETO.

[Edge]

Is it possible? Yes.
Are we going to allow it? Probably not.

[truly]

Oct 12, 2015 18:58:28 GMT -5 Edge said:

Long story short not-so-short:

The admins - most specifically Vincent, who does almost all of our coding and most of our hak work - already have a LOT of things on their plates at this time, and even considering something like this is extremely low-priority, doubly so since you can accomplish this effectively with the available classes such as Bard and Rogue. Actually implementing it, as a result, is even lower priority, and would be slotted well behind a great deal of other things currently on the waiting list, including but not limited to implementing the new hak content, new scripts, the constant work of finding and correcting spell errors, completing Warlock and Swordmage, and creating and adding new dungeons.

Not all Rogues are thieves, and taking a level in the class does not lock a character into that kind of RP. This would be easier to display if we had something like Archetypes or Alternate Class Features or whatever, but unfortunately that's not really an option.

Add into this that we are really, really not interested in providing "NPC Class" options to players. That's... not really the kind of RP we are interested in fostering here. We have enough characters who sit around and talk and don't really adventure all that much (and I'll be honest, I've done it myself, especially in times like right now when I am on heavy overtime and my limited playtime is usually somewhat stifled by me being OOCly exhausted), the last thing we really want to provide is classes that encourage non-adventurer character concepts in a world built for PC adventurers.

Our recommendation for characters seeking more skill points to spend is to multiclass into Bard or Rogue, start with a higher Intelligence at character creation, and/or play Humans. Creating a new class pretty much exclusively for the purpose of allowing more skill dumping and/or increasing the skills/skill points available to a character is not really an effective use of our resources. We would rather spend that time/effort on creating new Prestige Classes, new base classes that offer options truly not currently available like the previously-mentioned Warlock and Swordmage, and on other things such as the stuff mentioned in the first paragraph.

That, and Rogue is already suffering enough from "struggling to be useful" syndrome in a lot of places on CD as-is. Giving it yet another class to compete against in the "skill monkey" role, on top of Bard and Ranger, is kind of shooting the poor class in the knee after you've already broken an ankle.

So yeah, this is very much likely not going to happen.

Yeah, tbh when I started the thread I didn't realize how un-different it would be from just having a level of rogue (or bard). All my arguments basically boiled down to, "Why do that, I'll just take a level of rogue instead," and I think maybe it just makes more sense to take a level of rogue and fluff it away.

Thanks for the consideration!