Swordmage - suggestions

[Masque]

The class itself looks pretty nifty there where just a few points that stuck out when I was reading over that may hinder its performance as a 'warrior' class.


Cantrip: 

Discern Arcana: The Swordmage adds their Class level to any Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) checks for 5 rounds.

Could this be increased to rounds per level? The main use of this ability will be in DM plots and 5 rounds may not be enough time to make the correct rolls, listen to DM descriptions etc - as this becomes essentially an at will ability later it would be helpful in the early levels for it last a little longer.

Incantation - I

Blinkplate : +6 Armor AC for the next 5 Rounds + 1 Round/2 Levels

The duration of this incantation is going to make it really ineffective at the low levels you obtain it considering the length of dungeons on CD could this be expanded to hours per level?

Its big brother Greater Blinkplate should remain at its current duration though as it is really quite strong. 


Incantation IV:

Chaos Slash [W]: The Swordmage imbues himself with chaotic energy, hastening his movements and gaining an extra attack for 5 rounds + 1/level. Does not stack with Haste. Does not provide AC bonus.

You get this ability much later than a Wizard/Sorcerer gets Haste (LV 12 vs LV 5) and it seems to be strictly inferior when you consider that while it edges the duration of 'Haste' by 5 rounds it cannot be extended due to the lack of meta-magic that can be applied to the incantations.

I am not sure what I would suggest as an improvement other than adding the +4 dodge bonus that haste has although you might want to consider potentially adding boosts to it such as applying Chaos Shield to the casters armour that scales 1 level per two caster levels which on a 20th level Swordmage would have it fire on 10% of all attacks.

Otherwise it is on the weaker side for an ability that is the penultimate tier of what this class can do and in comparison to its peers.

Class feature:

Avatar of True Arcana(Ex)*: Twice a day as a Free Action a Swordmage may channel an enormous amount of Arcane energy through their bodies. For 2 rounds none of the Swordmage's activated Incantations can be dispelled and will function normally within Dead or Wild magic zones. (Will not be applied to Incantations already in effect.)

If I am reading this correctly you get two rounds to activate incantations that cannot be dispelled for the duration of the incantations cast? So for example if under the influence of this ability I cast Scales of the Dragon it cannot be dispelled for its duration? 

Also as this is a base class how is the implementation of 1st level going to be done? As you wont be able to select it on character creation due to vanilla NWN not having the base class. The PRC had a PC generating software it used but things may have moved on from there, can you also use the override folder?

Everything looks really nifty though and it is quite exciting to consider the new build options are there any plans for Epic Feats?

[Garage Trashcan]

And on the old forums, I thought we reached a consensus that Swordmage should be INT based, not CHA based.

www.createforum.com/cormyrdalelands/viewtopic.php?t=19124&mforum=cormyrdalelands

[Masque]

I hadn't read that previous thread. I am not sure I fully agree with a lot of the arguments that were made but this class seems to have been modified since then so it would be best to discuss what has been presented.

Charisma V.S. Intelligence is a tricky call to make but I think CHA is the right way to go.

If you go with INT then the class becomes more skill orientated and meshes with three other PRCs that use INT to boost combat ability - Bladesinger, Invisible Blade & Duelist. It also meshes very well with Wizard and its more friendly PRC options unlike Sorcerer that doesn't multi-class well with others. You would also leave yourself in the position that one statistic can be boosting two different forms of AC.

If you go CHA based then the class becomes more about trying to synergies it with other CHA based abilities - CHA to saves, Divine Might, Divine Shield and UMD.

The class is extremely MAD if you go the CHA route and want the INT AC boosts however as you would need - STR, DEX, CON, CHA and INT to function effectively which is very difficult to accomplish without applying for a high ECL race.

The UMD issue is just a non-issue there are so many way to gain access to the scrolls you need and they're rarely linked to the actual base class itself. The INT option does not restrict you from gaining access to the scrolls you need as taking that Wizard dip is now much more attractive. With CHA you need to jump through a few more hoops but UMD is such a powerful option on CD that if building for power is your aim then you'll incorporate it one way or the other.

The other thing that confused me was why the class gives you the light armour feat but none of your class abilities work in it. I think people are very much overestimating how much AC this class will have if it wants to achieve its primary aim of causing damage to enemies effectively. The spells are a help but the shield boosting spells for example puts you at the same value as a +5 Tower Shield and you are not allowed to use your off-hand it is effectively making your off-hand slot dedicated to a shield that can be dispelled and has a finite duration. It isn't a boost it is simply giving the class a worse version of a real shield.

The AC (Armour) boosts are pretty good but again they are limited by the inability to use light armour with them. Which I find odd as the class gives you light armour proficiency. While the AC boosts can match what you would have wearing full plate this is full plate that can be dispelled and has very finite duration. Allowing light armours to work with class features would gives +4 AC (Chain Shirt). This isn't comparable to Duelist, Bladesinger, Monk or Invisible Blade because you're not adding another source of AC you're simply giving boosts to ones you already have. Ones that other classes have the tools to boost in different ways.

In the previous thread Trog wrote up an example that you could achieve 53 AC with the class. This is about average for a fighter build. I don't see the AC as that big an issue although it does demonstrate you may wish to avoid additional stacking's of AC sources such as Duelist (which leans in favour of going CHA focused). That is 53 AC at full strength though which your Swordmage will not be able to maintain throughout the dungeon due to the shorter durations on the higher end buffs.

In terms of being effective at its role the class has a lot of promise. It has the ability to create its own additional damage and is not noticeably weaker against specific enemies (such as Undead) it has the limited ability to deal with full casters that other fighter classes lack and has some offensive options that target saves instead of AC and Discipline which is a vast improvement in options.

In terms of power? It doesn't come close to the sheer diversity, options and power a Cleric or a Wizard has at their disposal. However it does perform melee effectively overcoming a lot of obstacles that other builds struggle with. I would put it on par with Paladin or Ranger in terms of ability to perform its function (a bit stronger than Ranger). The comparison with Bard made on the previous thread is an interesting one I think Bard is still a very strong class with a near unrivalled ability to debuff and buff but a lot of the arguments of why this class is too strong could easily be applied to Bard. 
 

[The Red Mage]

53 is very average to me, and you can bank on seeing a few that are conveniently the best high ECL race to plug in their holes.

I say let it fly for now and nerf/buff/adjust later when it's on the field.

[Vincent07]

I'll reply to a bit of this.  Some of it will have to wait til the class can be stress tested live.

Discern Arcana:  I agree, it should likely be longer.

Blinkplate:  The Blinkplate line is designed to be a short term boost, with the Protective Personality class feature, as well as the longer lasting Silversteel Veil & Scales of the Dragon powers providing long term bonuses.  But your point on low level AC gain is a good one, and one I had mistakenly overlooked.  

Chaos Slash:  The big point here was the extra attack, as Swordmage is limited to a single-handed weapon at all times, and I felt AC was high enough, given the calculations I've done so far.  I do like the Chaos Armor idea, as that is a fun ability that sees very little use.  Again, live testing may see this adjusted.

Avatar:  That is correct, anything used while active will be dispel-proof.  I have no way to add/remove dispel protection without also removing all effects currently on a player and adding them back on, and that is problematic.  This is done in part for some help in dispel heavy areas, as with only 20 level progression, their CL is effectively capped vs say an EK etc.  But I'll get to that in a moment.

1st level:  Nothing I can really do here.  You'll have to take 1 level in another class to start.  That's just an unfortunate limit of NWN and custom content loading.


Epic progression:  I have given some thought to this, but not worked out the details yet.  Were I to do so, it would likely be another 5 levels, as 30 is impossible due to lvl 1 issues, and 29 would feel silly to me. Likely it would be 1 or 2 more tiers of incantations and perhaps a feat or two made available.  Unfortunately, all the information I have found concerning epic progression for Swordmage is 4e, which complicates things a bit, as the systems are entirely different.

Light Armor: That's a mistake, it should say cloth.  Swordmage's can't wear armor.

A brief note on CHA vs INT:  I went back and forth on this more than once in early development of the class.  I settled on CHA to force a bit more of a stat spread (as who does not want INT for shiny skill points?), and there are already a number of classes that focus on INT bonuses.  I don't think stacking cleric for DS or DM will be much of a problem.  Of the two, Divine Shield would be my only concern, but I may  be adjusting it anyway, so that may not even come into play at all.

[Masque]

Potentially on the low level armour you could introduce a cantrip that gives +3 AC for 24 hours? It would be strictly worse than Mage Armour but better than Magic Vestment (at the level gained) and it would allow your Blinkplate line to still be used as the 'boss battle/oh crap' button that I am assuming it is designed to be.

Makes sense with the Light Armour being removed thanks for the clarity.

Avatar seems like a very decent ability and quite a nice capstone.

Just as an aside will Divine Might actually stack with spells like 'Booming Blade' due to the on-hit function present? I am assuming it will as Elemental Weapon and Divine Might have the same mechanical relationship.

Also I was looking at this from the perspective of a ranged character if for example I took weapon focus in throwing axes or a ranged projectile shooter like Longbow would Weaponized Arcana work with these type of weapons? I am assuming not with Longbow as it is two handed but throwing dagger and axes may still work as one-handed. Which is quite exciting because you could make a very effective thrower with this class. 

In terms of classes you might want to look at for inspiration - Hexblade and Duskblade (with Duskblade being widely regarded as stronger than Hexblade). Are two that seem similar to what you're going for with Swordmage

In terms of additional 'Incantations' I was reading through the old thread and came across 'Sever Gravity' and before I read it (it just makes you fly) I assumed you were going to allow Swordmages to cast a reverse gravity effect and the thought of a Swordmage hitting someone so hard they fell upwards made me giggle a little bit evily. Any chance you could pop that one in?

[Vincent07]

Divine Might is a straight damage bonus applied to the caster, not an OnHit put on weapons like the elemental weapon abilities are.  So yes, it would stack.

Swordmages are melee, not ranged in terms of the weapons that work with their abilities.  It has to be a one-handed melee weapon.  Traditionally it is a sword.  Hexblade/Duskblade are entirely different classes, though similar in nature.  (Here is one of the sources for 3.5 Swordmage, as reference, wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Swordmage  Though some of what I'm using I've adapted from 4e, which has far more content for the class to work off of.)

Incantations.  Due to engine limits, I can only have 5 per tier. (As that's the sub-radial feat limit)  Yes I could add more, but I'm trying not to make it overly complex.  Sever Gravity is just Fly and I didn't feel it was necessary with Translocation present.  There is a Reverse Gravity type power higher up, but it didn't make the cut of powers.  Though were I to consider doing so, it might replace Mord's Sword, except that I like the flavor of that ability with the class.

[Masque]

Cool I really do like Fax's work it is usually very well thought out.

In terms of powers I was looking through them and I am unsure what the damage descriptions actually mean to be able to gauge how much power you are actually throwing out

Fellfrost Cross[Art]: Attack with a hail of icy blades. Ranged touch attack in a cone in front of the Swordmage.  Targets take damage as if hit with 2 Icy Burst Sword Swords. Sword damage Enchantment is equal to the Swordmage's Weaponized Arcana rank.

Is this two longswords so - 1d8 x 2 for the base damage + 2d6 x 2 Icy Burst + the enchantment level of weaponized arcana? So assuming say it was +3 your damage would be 2d8 (slashing) + 4d6 (cold) + 3?

Which would make for an average damage output of 9 (slashing) + 14 (cold) + 3 = 26 damage per casting.  

[Vincent07]

+ your STR mod, + damage bonus from Ogre's Might if applicable (and other sources, assuming I can parse them all in).  I'll likely have a d20 roll in there to see if it crits.  Any damage resist etc on enemies will obviously reduce it.  But yes, it'll be a mix of physical and cold damage.

Ah, and that should say short swords, so d6's.

All of this of course assuming your touch attack actually hits the target.

[Masque]

Ah that is quite neat so spell damage that increases with strength. Is that the same with all of the incantations like Lightening Fury and Incinerate?

[Vincent07]

It's because they aren't spells, so much as they're supposed to be conjured weapons that you make 1 attack with.  Thus why they're all melee or ranged touch attacks.  It's as close of an approximation to their abilities as I can do in NWN.

[sammael757]

I'm sure you've already seen this, but if not here is something someone has done that is very similar to the direction you are heading in many regards. (Not sure why, but this link only works if you copy/paste it into your browser for some reason; otherwise it tells you there is no text for that page and leaves all after the comma off of the link it opens.)

www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Swordmage,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)

Personally, if I were converting it, I'd leave the light armor available like he did. The 4e version also can wear cloth and leather, so light armor isn't really over-balanced imo; the NWN engine leaves chain shirts off the light armor list anyway, so you'd still be within the 4e criteria for the most part, liberally interpreting leather to cover hide and studded and leaving padded classified as cloth. A melee class that only has 6 -very- short lived shots of armor and an over-lapping deflection bonus (which they don't even get until 7th level) between 1st-12th level (technically 2nd and 13th due to NWN engine's limitations on custom base classes) seems terribly ineffective. Since armor bonuses to AC don't stack, the blinkplate abilities would just give them a short term slight buff beyond what their armor provides (+3 max in studded leather) until such a time as they get enchanted armor of high enough quality to make the low level blinkplate obsolete, but by that time they'll get the improved version (much like a F/M build who no longer has to use mage armor and moves on to improved mage armor). Yes, they get some other boons like their shield benefit, but so do other F/M classes, who stack armor (either by still spell feat or class design for bladesingers and spell swords); many of said F/M builds armor buff durations, with the exception of shield, last for hours rather than rounds, and they have access to them far earlier than the swordmage. 

 I think a compromise between what he gives the class for art/incantation function and what you propose would be the most balanced approach. You give fewer tiers, but limit each tier to 6 times per day. Considering your main source of armor comes from these 6 uses per day, as a melee character you'll likely spend most of those 6 on the blinkplates at those tiers and enjoy the other abilities far less, which means a non-existent AC (compared to even the group's mage, who will be rocking his hours-long mage armor) or less damage because you are saving your uses for blinkplate (or both when you run dry of daily uses). The author of the above conversion goes wildly the other way, and allows up t 9th level effects which can be renewed over and over again, making them all usable multiple times per day as long as you take 5 to ready them all again (you get a certain # of arts that can be readied, and only used once, until readied again, which you can do by simply meditating for 5 minutes). This is a bit much in my opinion, as you get a lot of readied arts/incantations already, some quite powerful even compared to wizard spells, and you can reset them all after each combat. Lastly, in 4e, many of these abilities are encounter abilities, which means they can be used each new combat, thus the short durations make perfect sense. But when they are limited to a 6/day-use pool shared with your other abilities, the durations become inappropriately short imo. 

 Perhaps a more balanced approach then is meshing these two ideas; far fewer tiers of powers with more realistic affects as you have done, but making some of them either longer durations, such as replace the proposed blinkplate and greater BP effects you have with mage armor and improved mage armor effects for example; a little loss on AC bonus is worth the duration increase, especially if you stick with no armor. -Or-, make them feats that must be activated during combat, similar to expertise or defensive casting. This limits them somewhat by having them spend an action to activate them each combat, but stays more in line with an "encounter power" mentality that they have in 4e. I only recommend the feat solution/duration increases for the armor effects mind you, not the other abilities (and even then only if you continue to disallow armor for your version). If the blinkplate effects operate similar to expertise/improved expertise, then a 6/day use of the incantation tiers becomes more than sufficient, as they work mainly like spontaneous spells in practical function and the player can make more use of the other really cool abilities within the incantation tiers. Likewise, your more limited tier system is far more balanced at that point than the link above, whether they are allowed to wear armor or whether the blinkplate incantations are increased in duration/granted as feats.

This, if made to be able to somehow sustain their position in melee long term, would be a very appealing class that would give little reason to multi-class. Placing many of the abilities higher in the level progression makes dipping of any sort more limiting than beneficial imo, discouraging attempts to power-build with it. I hope these suggestions are helpful (rather than critical, antagonistic or impractical). I've played fighter/mage types since the original dungeons and dragons and seen a lot of cool things come and go. What you are working on here has a lot of promise with a fresh and appealing flavor (like some of the base classes in pathfinder). I definitely look forward to seeing it grow into a functional reality :-)