Paladin Mechanics Discussion (Discussion Welcome)

[Edge]

Feb 1, 2022 12:05:07 GMT -5 haroshia said:

Feb 1, 2022 12:02:53 GMT -5 Edge said:

1, 2, and 3 are not doable in NWN's mechanics due to blackbox.

Yeesh.  I've seen such things done, but I assume they required a total rebuild of the class rather than a change to the existing class then?

Pretty much, or extremely extensive NWNX scripting to go around the blackbox.

Paladins are coded to use Wisdom for spellcasting. Changing that would require remaking a replacement of the class and having every existing Paladin relevel into the new version. It's not just a switch we can change.

Cleric domains in NWN only work for Clerics. Giving the feat to anyone else does nothing - they can't access any special abilities because those are only accessible through the Cleric radial, and they're only coded to add spells to Cleric spell lists. I'm not even sure we could fix the second part of this one by remaking Paladin to recognize the feat.

Likewise, Favored Enemy is coded to scale based on Ranger levels. You can give the feat to non-Rangers, but it will stay at the base bonus unless they also have Ranger levels to advance it. It's why Harper Scout's one Favored Enemy doesn't advance unless they're a Ranger multiclass. And since it's a combat feat, we can't touch it to change what classes allow it to scale - that's the hardest part of the blackbox to tinker around.

[Garage Trashcan]

As much as I'd like to see CHA casting as Vince had thought of doing, it's as Edge said and would be a massive PITA to implement. The "easiest" changes would be:

1) More Smite Evil per day, perhaps 1/level, but this requires duplicating the smite evil feat at every level or something along those lines
2) Changing Lay on Hands to X/day or a cooldown, which was previously mentioned
3) Giving Paladins bonus feats at 6/12/18 like Green Knight to bring them more in line with the other melees. This would put them more or less at-par with feats as a Hospitaler and solidify Hospitaler as a Cleric multiclass. This pretty much covers their Divine Might/Shield/Extra Turning tax. however, I don't really like just slapping more bonus feats on things as a band-aid, even if that's how PF solved a lot of problems.

That said anyone saying that Paladin is objectively weak is patently false. The below screenshot was taken in an Epic dungeon. It is not a Great Smiting build. It's not a Dev Crit or even an Overwhelming Crit build. This wasn't done on a high ECL like Half-Dragon or Half-Celestial. The weapon doesn't even have a Bane against that type of enemy. I'm pretty sure this boss has flat % DR, too. It was a smite crit, but not even a majority of Paladin levels. Done entirely with self-buffs. Yes, the number is high due to Merc GS, but you'll put out higher DPS in 90% of scenarios with a regular GS or a Falchion because of more frequent crits.




Will you be as strong as a Cleric/Hospitaler or FS build? No, because you lack their utility kit and Cleric/FS are fundamentally broken in how good they are at buff and bash. They lack the utility of a Swordmage, but you 100% can keep up with the damage output of a Barbarian or WM, which is what you should be comparing yourself to. You're a bit better with easier UMD CCing or with a bard/rogue dip since you have a CHA investment so better utility/self-buffing and you're taking these for Tumble anyhow. Don't sleep on Extend Spell.



At some level, I'd honestly rather see BG more restricted in the way Paladin is because it's just fundamentally easier to build around for how much benefit it provides, and I say that as someone who has played both Paladin and BG builds here at the same level.

[Wolfgar]

Adding few more spells on 3rd and 4th would also help and give some motivation to also take more levels on paladin. Those slots are mostly useless now. And there's definitely some spells that would be helpful and can be considered. Moon blade on 3rd would be great and it would further empathise how good paladins should be against undead. And since it does positive damage it stacks with holy. 4th can be open for some AoE party buff like battletide.

[The Red Mage]

Paladins aren't mechanically weak. They are mechanically uninteresting.

[Edge]

Feb 1, 2022 15:52:24 GMT -5 Wolfgar said:

Adding few more spells on 3rd and 4th would also help and give some motivation to also take more levels on paladin. Those slots are mostly useless now. And there's definitely some spells that would be helpful and can be considered. Moon blade on 3rd would be great and it would further empathise how good paladins should be against undead. And since it does positive damage it stacks with holy. 4th can be open for some AoE party buff like battletide.

We are currently reviewing options and considerations for expanding the Paladin (and Ranger, Bard, and Druid) spell lists. It's mostly going to come down to which ones we decide we want to add, which ones are actually doable in NWN mechanics, which ones Vincent feels like coding up, and whether we feel they need to be rebalanced/redesigned in any way.

[Vincent07]

Feb 1, 2022 12:06:59 GMT -5 Edge said:

Feb 1, 2022 12:05:07 GMT -5 haroshia said:

Yeesh.  I've seen such things done, but I assume they required a total rebuild of the class rather than a change to the existing class then?

Pretty much, or extremely extensive NWNX scripting to go around the blackbox.

Paladins are coded to use Wisdom for spellcasting. Changing that would require remaking a replacement of the class and having every existing Paladin relevel into the new version. It's not just a switch we can change.

Cleric domains in NWN only work for Clerics. Giving the feat to anyone else does nothing - they can't access any special abilities because those are only accessible through the Cleric radial, and they're only coded to add spells to Cleric spell lists. I'm not even sure we could fix the second part of this one by remaking Paladin to recognize the feat.

Likewise, Favored Enemy is coded to scale based on Ranger levels. You can give the feat to non-Rangers, but it will stay at the base bonus unless they also have Ranger levels to advance it. It's why Harper Scout's one Favored Enemy doesn't advance unless they're a Ranger multiclass. And since it's a combat feat, we can't touch it to change what classes allow it to scale - that's the hardest part of the blackbox to tinker around.

1 is actually doable, easily. Casting stat is defined in a 2da.  But gear would need redoing.

[Edge]

I stand corrected. In which case, I'd be in favor of it, but it would need to be something the admins would need to discuss. And yeah gear would need redoing, and I imagine a lot of our Paladin PCs would want to shuffle their stats a bit.

[snorriht]

Having played a Pa/Ro to 16, and now playing a Pa/Hos/Ro, with gratefully appreciated advice from veterans, I now have a better understanding of basic Paladin play. Paladins are similar as Clerics, in that HOS is just too good not to take. The difference is that clerics have a full spell list, versatile Domains, as well as the class serving as a prerequisite for many PrC's.

So perhaps we should embrace that Pa/Hos/x, or Pa/DC/x are reliable ways to play a Pally, and consider small incremental improvements to make the Paladin more mechanically appealing, and versatile class to play.

Updating level the spell list and some T4 equipment, as previously discussed in this thread, would be a good for a first pass, and hopefully will not be onerous on the builders.


Spell suggestions:

Spell change - Holy Sword - +5, 2d6 positive energy damage vs evil, 1 min/level. Original: www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm

Spell addition - Shield Other (level 3 Pally spell) - treat as the Shadow Shield spell, that can only be cast on another person (not self). Duration 1/hr level. Original: www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm

Spell addition - Holy Fire Shield (level 3 Pally spell) - treat as Wounding Whispers spell, except it does divine, instead of sonic damage. Source: p.56 Champions of Valor



Equipment suggestions:
Obviously these suggestions will need to be tweaked for balance.

Oath Hammer: Required class: Paladin (UMD not possible), +4 Warhammer, 1d8 Massive Criticals, +5 and 2d8 bludgeoning damage vs Goblins. Original: p.67 Champions of Valor

Description: Created by a Dwarf priest who lost his two sons when the clan hold was overrun by Goblins. This dwarf-crafted hammer even looks angry, having inherited the righteous rage of its creator. The Dwarven script reads: "For my sons Khondar and Khondos Stonebreaker, slain at the hands of the Goblins, whose spilt blood I will avenge a thousandfold before I die, so I swear before Moradin, Berronar and Gorm".  

Storm Armour: Required class: Paladin (UMD not possible), +4 Fullplate, 60% less Weight, Slashing resist 5/-, Electrical Resist 15/-, Immunity: Reverse Gravity spell, Paladin Spell 3, Paladin Spell 4. Original: p.69 Champions of Valor    

Description: When a member of the Knights of Flying Hunt attains full knighthood, The Nimbral Lords bestow on that character a suit of glowing Storm Armor, made from glassteel. The Armour is further enchanted to glow with various hues  of the rainbow, and gets brighter as the wearer's rage or excitement increases, or dims if the physical vitality or consciousness of the wearer fails.

[Edge]

May 17, 2022 19:41:22 GMT -5 snorriht said:

Spell addition - Shield Other (level 3 Pally spell) - treat as the Shadow Shield spell, that can only be cast on another person (not self). Duration 1/hr level. Original: www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm

So Shadow Shield doesn't do anything like Shield Other - Shadow Shield protects against negative energy, death effects, and necromancy spells, while Shield Other absorbs damage taken by another character and causes the paladin to take it in their stead. They're completely different, and thus there's zero reason why one would be used to replace the other.

I don't believe we can actually do the proper mechanics for Shield Other in the NWN engine, hence why that spell hasn't been implemented or suggested. Fox may be able to wizard something up, though, so don't quote me on that.

Furthermore, Paladins get Death Ward as a 4th level spell, and thus it would be inappropriate to put the more-powerful, higher-level Shadow Shield (7th Sorc/Wiz) in a lower-level spell rank.

[Edge]

May 17, 2022 19:41:22 GMT -5 snorriht said:

Storm Armour: Required class: Paladin (UMD not possible), +4 Fullplate, 60% less Weight, Slashing resist 5/-, Electrical Resist 15/-, Immunity: Reverse Gravity spell, Paladin Spell 3, Paladin Spell 4. Original: p.69 Champions of Valor

Immunity to Reverse Gravity as a permanent effect is not currently possible. Though the spell is scripted to ignore someone if they have wings or are under the effects of a Fly spell.

[Edge]

May 17, 2022 19:41:22 GMT -5 snorriht said:

Equipment suggestions:
Obviously these suggestions will need to be tweaked for balance.

So above impossibilities aside, we try to avoid balancing classes through the use/availability of items. If a class needs an improvement, we try to do it through adjusting the class itself, not the gear that they have available to use. In Paladin's case, the primary focus right now is on expanding their spell list, possibly swapping their casting stat, and improving their class abilities.

[snorriht]

May 18, 2022 15:26:30 GMT -5 Edge said:

May 17, 2022 19:41:22 GMT -5 snorriht said:

Equipment suggestions:
Obviously these suggestions will need to be tweaked for balance.

So above impossibilities aside, we try to avoid balancing classes through the use/availability of items. If a class needs an improvement, we try to do it through adjusting the class itself, not the gear that they have available to use. In Paladin's case, the primary focus right now is on expanding their spell list, possibly swapping their casting stat, and improving their class abilities.

Thanks for the insight into class balancing, and the primary focus, it is much appreciated :-)