Suggested Improvement to the RP XP System

[Eruheran]

Hey there, since this has come up in another thread in the general section, I felt that this would find better visibility here on it's own. I will be pulling my opinions from there and placing them in here.

The base idea: Once a PC has hit the 300 RP XP cap for the day, they earn a reduced rate of 1 rp xp per tick until the cap is refreshed the next day.

My thoughts:
Currently I've noticed a lot that some people log in to Arabel center or wherever, purely for the sake of getting their rp xp for the day, by doing seemingly meaningless rp. Once the quota is filled, they log off to presumably do something else, and I don't blame them.

When you reach the rp xp cap for the day you are essentially done when it comes to mechanical progression towards a lvl up, and it can lead to a feeling of being stuck. Now I do believe that roleplay can be its own reward, and should be it's own reward, and I do understand that the current system is much more advanced than the old one, but that doesn't mean it can't get better. There's always room for improvement.

The current xp system is decent, but it doesn't necessarily encourage good rp. It's actually not that easy to design a system that, on it's own, encourages good rp. So what could? Well going back to the base idea, this will encourage people to rp more, which in turn should help them improve their rp skills. I also think that the reduced tick of 1 rp xp would not break the servers pace of progression.

For example if it took you 2 hours to get 300 rp xp off of 15 xp per tick, that means that 1 hour is worth 10 ticks. Now if there was reduced rp xp after the cap of 300 has been reached, 1 hour would be 10 rp xp, and 30 hours to reach the same amount of xp as when you were earning it at the rate of 15xp per tick.

I do think this will not only encourage people to engage in better rp as they reach the cap, but in keeping up that rp, those who are not presently advancing their personal stories or faction related rp (heavier, super purposeful rp) would then still feel like they're being rewarded, and would likely put forward more effort to keep rp going, which would serve to enrich the atmosphere and server rp quality. At the same time, the amount you'd get isn't so much that you'd feel like you're missing out on a lot by not playing the game, which is a good, healthy thing.

Fear of missing out is never healthy, plus, this will also help others avoid the feeling that if they don't get into a DM quest or similar, that they can't progress more.

I then responded to a post suggesting the reduced rate should be 5 instead of 1.

My answer:
I think the reason why something uncapped like this isn't already in effect is because you don't want people to be able to rush progression just by staying on the server for an absurd amount of time. If someone were to spend, lets say, twelve hours with this in place, they'd get (assuming 2 hours of rp is worth 300 rp xp) 300  + (5x10x10= 500) = 800 rp xp, which is impactful, and I believe this rate would vastly increase how people progress through levels, which is more likely to not be approved and therefore end up a hill which I would rather not die on to see any improvement.

It is a healthy thing to not feel bound to any one thing to miss out on purposeful progression. That is why I think if this were to be an implemented change, the most it should be is 2 rp xp per tick. The reason is that you don't want to end up with players thinking "If I go just a bit longer, I'll be able to progress more, and if I stop, I'll fall behind." Currently as proven by other threads in the forum, and players I've talked to, that is how some feel about DM Quests. They feel like if they can't get in one, they'll miss out, they'll fall behind, they won't progress as they'd like.

1-2 rp xp reduced after hitting the cap will still rack up after a while, but it won't be enough to where players will feel like they're missing out on a lot of progression by not no-lifing the game.

Overall, the base idea is something that I think would be really cool to see, ultimately it's up to you guys, and I understand if you want to preserve the rate of progression, but I do feel that this will help ease some players minds and hearts when it comes to fear of missing out.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jan 12, 2022 7:05:04 GMT -5 Eruheran said:

The current xp system is decent, but it doesn't necessarily encourage good rp. It's actually not that easy to design a system that, on it's own, encourages good rp. So what could? Well going back to the base idea, this will encourage people to rp more, which in turn should help them improve their rp skills. I also think that the reduced tick of 1 rp xp would not break the servers pace of progression.

For example if it took you 2 hours to get 300 rp xp off of 15 xp per tick, that means that 1 hour is worth 10 ticks. Now if there was reduced rp xp after the cap of 300 has been reached, 1 hour would be 10 rp xp, and 30 hours to reach the same amount of xp as when you were earning it at the rate of 15xp per tick.

I do think this will not only encourage people to engage in better rp as they reach the cap, but in keeping up that rp, those who are not presently advancing their personal stories or faction related rp (heavier, super purposeful rp) would then still feel like they're being rewarded, and would likely put forward more effort to keep rp going, which would serve to enrich the atmosphere and server rp quality. At the same time, the amount you'd get isn't so much that you'd feel like you're missing out on a lot by not playing the game, which is a good, healthy thing.

Fear of missing out is never healthy, plus, this will also help others avoid the feeling that if they don't get into a DM quest or similar, that they can't progress more.

This is going to be a hot take, but the quality of the RP people participate in has absolutely jack squat to do with the XP progression system and everything to do with the players participating in the RP, and there's not anything inherently wrong with that. Expanding the amount of XP can earn per day doesn't solve that problem and only increases FOMO because you'll have people who stay on literally 24/7 making minor interactions to edge themselves out every bit of XP they can, because that's how our brains are programmed. You already get FOMO when, "If I don't log on today, I'll fall behind my friends and underleveled!" Giving people more XP just makes this feeling worse in addition to making the RP worse. You'll see even less engagement after the 2.5 hours because the reward is 1/15th of what it was previously.

The best way to incentivize what you might consider "good" RP is to have an interesting, nuanced character and find other players who match your playstyle. Hands down, the best RP I've ever had here has been long after I stopped earning XP for the day and I didn't even realize how much time was passing. Otherwise, you just have to accept that CD can be a psuedo-social server and a lot of people here can't be bothered to give it 100% of their writing chops every day (I certainly can't). Other players are perfectly content "playing pretend" instead of telling deep, complex stories with their PCs and that's fine. They want to put on a wizard hat and be a wizard, not detail out every thought that passes through their brain and spend 5 minutes thinking about the proper way to respond to every interaction. Other players will switch how they RP depending on their mood or energy level. 

[Eruheran]

Jan 12, 2022 8:16:45 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

Jan 12, 2022 7:05:04 GMT -5 Eruheran said:

The current xp system is decent, but it doesn't necessarily encourage good rp. It's actually not that easy to design a system that, on it's own, encourages good rp. So what could? Well going back to the base idea, this will encourage people to rp more, which in turn should help them improve their rp skills. I also think that the reduced tick of 1 rp xp would not break the servers pace of progression.

For example if it took you 2 hours to get 300 rp xp off of 15 xp per tick, that means that 1 hour is worth 10 ticks. Now if there was reduced rp xp after the cap of 300 has been reached, 1 hour would be 10 rp xp, and 30 hours to reach the same amount of xp as when you were earning it at the rate of 15xp per tick.

I do think this will not only encourage people to engage in better rp as they reach the cap, but in keeping up that rp, those who are not presently advancing their personal stories or faction related rp (heavier, super purposeful rp) would then still feel like they're being rewarded, and would likely put forward more effort to keep rp going, which would serve to enrich the atmosphere and server rp quality. At the same time, the amount you'd get isn't so much that you'd feel like you're missing out on a lot by not playing the game, which is a good, healthy thing.

Fear of missing out is never healthy, plus, this will also help others avoid the feeling that if they don't get into a DM quest or similar, that they can't progress more.

This is going to be a hot take, but the quality of the RP people participate in has absolutely jack squat to do with the XP progression system and everything to do with the players participating in the RP, and there's not anything inherently wrong with that. Expanding the amount of XP can earn per day doesn't solve that problem and only increases FOMO because you'll have people who stay on literally 24/7 making minor interactions to edge themselves out every bit of XP they can, because that's how our brains are programmed. You already get FOMO when, "If I don't log on today, I'll fall behind my friends and underleveled!" Giving people more XP just makes this feeling worse in addition to making the RP worse. You'll see even less engagement after the 2.5 hours because the reward is 1/15th of what it was previously.

The best way to incentivize what you might consider "good" RP is to have an interesting, nuanced character and find other players who match your playstyle. Hands down, the best RP I've ever had here has been long after I stopped earning XP for the day and I didn't even realize how much time was passing. Otherwise, you just have to accept that CD can be a psuedo-social server and a lot of people here can't be bothered to give it 100% of their writing chops every day (I certainly can't). Other players are perfectly content "playing pretend" instead of telling deep, complex stories with their PCs and that's fine. They want to put on a wizard hat and be a wizard, not detail out every thought that passes through their brain and spend 5 minutes thinking about the proper way to respond to every interaction. Other players will switch how they RP depending on their mood or energy level. 

I don't think it's a hot take but it's definitely a blanket statement that is not 100% true. The best RP will always come from having a well-fleshed out and presented character, however, people vary in all ways and manners, and it is true that people do have FOMO (fear of missing out) when it comes to DM quests on this server. I think the current 300xp per day for roughly 2 hours of play is a good amount, it doesn't demand too much time invested.

Ultimately this is a very small and minor point about this post, which is ultimately tackling the concept of the current xp system and how players do legitimately feel when it comes to it. If one does read my full post, they will see how I thought of the idea of there being 5xp per tick past the cap, versus 1xp per tick.

1xp per tick is small enough that a player isn't likely to agonize over missing 10xp per hour. FOMO isn't healthy, the suggestion I have given, in all respects should not create more FOMO.

[Nymera]

You are correct that FOMO can be unhealthy, but allowing additional ticks beyond the daily limit, even at 1xp, creates an additional "fear of missing out" by encouraging people to play as much as possible to soak up extra XP.  The solution you are proposing does not eliminate this problem but exacerbates it.  

If I may be somewhat blunt, every proposed XP change I see on the forums boils down to "I want to level faster" (including this one), which is not something that necessarily helps the server any.  Many of us feel that leveling is already too fast, and there is way too much energy being spent on worrying about levels and XP instead of just roleplaying your characters and enjoying the journey.

[Eruheran]

Jan 12, 2022 9:00:27 GMT -5 Nymera said:

You are correct that FOMO can be unhealthy, but allowing additional ticks beyond the daily limit, even at 1xp, creates an additional "fear of missing out" by encouraging people to play as much as possible to soak up extra XP.  The solution you are proposing does not eliminate this problem but exacerbates it.  

If I may be somewhat blunt, every proposed XP change I see on the forums boils down to "I want to level faster" (including this one), which is not something that necessarily helps the server any.  Many of us feel that leveling is already too fast, and there is way too much energy being spent on worrying about levels and XP instead of just roleplaying your characters and enjoying the journey.

As I mentioned before, I think it's a bit extreme to say that 10xp per hour is going to be agonized over by the majority of players. On the other hand, missing out on potentially great progression for character story and items from DM quests is much more logical to say that that would create more fomo.

Also, I think that boiling this down to "I want to level faster', very much disregards the thought and effort put into it, as I am not posting this not for myself, but for those I have talked to and seen agonizing over being unable to participate in things on these very forums and elsewhere. This is a suggestion created after listening to others.

The DM team is not limitless and even as active as they are, not everyone is going to be able to be able to be catered to, whether due to timezone issues or otherwise. This suggestion I wholeheartedly see can alleviate some of those feelings, and I think it would be an absolute shame to write off those feelings as inconsequential compared to making a small adjustment. I think that it's much too much to say that 1xp per tick will exacerbate for everyone, a problem created by the fact that there's just not enough manpower and time to help absolutely everyone, nor will there ever be.

That is my opinion, as is yours. Ultimately I did not post this in the general forum because I wish for the admin-team to see it in as pure a form as possible without too much dilution of peer debate.

[Nymera]

If this did not boil down to wanting to level faster, then why propose more XP gain?  

[Eruheran]

Because those unable to be involved in DM-related questings will at least then have something to feel forward progression with outside the daily 300xp cap. Also the more XP gain, is so small that in the opinions of myself, that even though it's small, it's still something rather than nothing.

[Eruheran]

The meaning is being lost as "more xp = faster leveling" which is not the purpose of it. The purpose is the feelings of the people who are feeling left out, who, for one reason or other, can't participate as much as they'd like to.

To make this simply about the numbers, the xp in of itself is missing the concept. The concept is the peoples feelings, the unhappiness, the wanting to be a part of something but not being able to. The suggestion, if I were to work in figurative speach, is a soothing balm, meant to placate said feelings even a little bit.

[Nymera]

More XP will not enhance roleplay, nor will it remove any feelings of ""not being part of something". What it will do, is help you level faster.

"Forward progression", as you call it, is another way of saying "leveling faster".

You could have proposed a lot of new reward systems or DM events to encourage roleplay, but you proposed more XP.  XP is not used for roleplaying, it is used for: leveling.



EDIT: (Also, I want to add that I'm not trying to beat you up here OP, I'm trying to help you to see a simple truth: More XP will not actually make you happier.  This is an RP server, and while there are certainly suggestions that could enhance or improve roleplay, it's never "more XP".  That's entirely unrelated.)

[Garage Trashcan]

I did read your full original post, I just quoted the part that was relevant to my response.

Jan 12, 2022 9:26:07 GMT -5 Eruheran said:

Because those unable to be involved in DM-related questings will at least then have something to feel forward progression with outside the daily 300xp cap. Also the more XP gain, is so small that in the opinions of myself, that even though it's small, it's still something rather than nothing.

I think what you're underestimating here is the fact that, as long-time players, we've already seen exactly this happen. Some of us have done exactly this already. The admins spent a good number of years testing and iterating on the XP system to find a balance they felt was comfortable - including earlier level caps, later level caps, and faster/slower iterations of the daily fairy. As you've said, 2.5 hour investment for 300 xp is decent enough. If anything, I'd argue the admins would rather disincentivize the players who spent 16 hours a day online across multiple alts than encourage it, even minimally or unintentionally.

[Eruheran]

Jan 12, 2022 9:38:48 GMT -5 Nymera said:

More XP will not enhance roleplay, nor will it remove any feelings of ""not being part of something". What it will do, is help you level faster.

"Forward progression", as you call it, is another way of saying "leveling faster".

You could have proposed a lot of new reward systems or DM events to encourage roleplay, but you proposed more XP.  XP is not used for roleplaying, it is used for: leveling.

I understand what you're saying and, don't worry, no hard feelings. I do think we're approaching this from two different angles, so I'll just try to give some clarity where I'm coming from.

I called it forward progression because it was an easier way to term it without going into other fields of research and study surrounding consumer-focused tactics. XP at it's most base is as you mentioned, used for levelling. However, what does the term "XP gained" feel, and mean for a player? These are things that should be considered if you want to cultivate a product that makes the consumer feel good, not just what it is used for.

So lets open the board for other considerations, though I do still feel that my original suggestion is a solid one still.

Going off the knowledge that there'll likely never be enough time and manpower to cater to everyone on a regular basis, aside from the well known saying "too many cooks spoil the broth," what systems or ideas might there be to engage players in a way that makes them feel happy?

Admittedly my imagination is lacking in this department where it comes to a wide array of ideas, but here's two I could think of:

More npc quests that maybe instead of rewarding just XP (or any at all), reward items instead that could be based on the characters primary class.

Something else might be a sort of gathering items for one off quests that could reward more trinket-like but useful items. Maybe like high level potions of spells that could be used to help in difficult dungeons or so on.

Things I tried to consider when thinking of these things were what would place the most burden on those who are working for no profit to make this server a good place for their players, and what would offer a stable, rewarding experience, now and into the future.

Jan 12, 2022 9:40:06 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

I did read your full original post, I just quoted the part that was relevant to my response.

Jan 12, 2022 9:26:07 GMT -5 Eruheran said:

Because those unable to be involved in DM-related questings will at least then have something to feel forward progression with outside the daily 300xp cap. Also the more XP gain, is so small that in the opinions of myself, that even though it's small, it's still something rather than nothing.

I think what you're underestimating here is the fact that, as long-time players, we've already seen exactly this happen. Some of us have done exactly this already. The admins spent a good number of years testing and iterating on the XP system to find a balance they felt was comfortable - including earlier level caps, later level caps, and faster/slower iterations of the daily fairy. As you've said, 2.5 hour investment for 300 xp is decent enough. If anything, I'd argue the admins would rather disincentivize the players who spent 16 hours a day online across multiple alts than encourage it, even minimally or unintentionally.

I see, for the point that you mention, I do fully agree. For what it's worth, myself and others have also been playing on nwn servers and in honestly ones that have a much more punishing levelling process, where it literally reduces the amount you get from combat xp, and can take sometimes years to get to lvl 20 even with dedicated, active play. (which I have done)

[Evareska]

Maybe a quest/reward systems suggestion thread should be another one entirely, for the sake of not mixing things up too much.

I do like the idea of a quest that'd reward me with an item for the class I have the most levels in.

(Edit): Though I think quests won't really fill that hole that you're describing, OP. Most scripted content from what I have seen is a one and done thing, not replayable. Once those you're speaking on behalf of do those quests, what comes after to keep the feeling going?

I think in that case the original suggestion holds fruit because it'll always be there for players whenever they play the game, for newbies and oldbies alike. Someone who, maybe can't play on tuesday but can play a lot on wednesday can catch up what he lost from being unable to log in the day before, even if just a bit.

The type of system you'd need is one that will always be able to be accessed often, and not just as one off things, I think.

When I think about it like that, your suggestion does seem better than the current scrpted content present in the game, because it will always be there for players.

Also, just because something is good, doesn't mean it can't be better.  

[Garage Trashcan]

Jan 12, 2022 10:15:45 GMT -5 Eruheran said:

Jan 12, 2022 9:40:06 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

I did read your full original post, I just quoted the part that was relevant to my response.

I think what you're underestimating here is the fact that, as long-time players, we've already seen exactly this happen. Some of us have done exactly this already. The admins spent a good number of years testing and iterating on the XP system to find a balance they felt was comfortable - including earlier level caps, later level caps, and faster/slower iterations of the daily fairy. As you've said, 2.5 hour investment for 300 xp is decent enough. If anything, I'd argue the admins would rather disincentivize the players who spent 16 hours a day online across multiple alts than encourage it, even minimally or unintentionally.

I see, for the point that you mention, I do fully agree. For what it's worth, myself and others have also been playing on nwn servers and in honestly ones that have a much more punishing levelling process, where it literally reduces the amount you get from combat xp, and can take sometimes years to get to lvl 20 even with dedicated, active play. (which I have done)

I'd honestly rather see a move away from the daily fairy system and a system that encouraged more exploration/dungeon crawling. We're adventurers and a rotating list of quests or bounties would, I think, be more compelling for RP and get people out of the square. As is, with how common Teleport is now, we're borderline a lobby-based MMO as you no longer get lost for 4 hours back and forth on your way from dungeons.

I know some people are less inclined toward dungeoning or won't want to do that all week, but expansion on the sandbox and crafting system that's been worked on would be needed to provide an alternative form of progression (i.e. doing crafting/gathering quests instead of dungeons). If we were starting fresh, the XP/leveling system would likely be very different. Anything that involves movement and encourages getting out of the server hub would be a welcome change, otherwise everything that does so is purely player-driven and comes and goes in waves.

[Edge]

We're not likely to implement very many more in-game quests. Might be a few added once the epic content is more fully fleshed out, but not a lot.

[Meadows]

I've said this before in similar threads. I think the crux of the issue this boils down to is folks running out of "things to do" IG once they hit daily XP cap/level cap. You think you want to be able to continue earning xp and leveling, since that's the first 'feel of progression and growth' your brain goes to for dopamine. Admittedly this feeling is much stronger on CD than elsewhere- you level fast and you quickly earn enough gold to always have a surplus so you don't even feel forced to work towards that either. With no crafting system, tons of gold and only a handful of bounties you think 'what else am I to do?"

If the staff and others feel that opening the daily ticks isn't worth it, you have to get more creative and ask for other forms of progression or ask how you can help them with the labor/justification of coding and placing it all in the module.

-Exploration XP
-Crafting XP (in which one only levels up within the crafting skill, not necessarily character level)

Or maybe you need to find another form of progression
-Open a character store
-Start/invest heavily into a guild
-Start a character journal
Etc.