Beating the (Un)dead Horse: IC, OOC, Antagonism, Issues, etc

Fire Wraith · Sep 24, 2014, 11:19 PM

So I'm coming back around to this topic, because it needs reiterating, again.
Where to start? Honestly I'm not sure anymore, so bear with me here.

There's a lot that builds into this, and I'm not going to go into the specifics, but let me try and clarify a few things here.

The first is that everyone playing here - we're all adults, and we need to act like it. I and Vincent cannot be called in to settle every minor disagreement. This is a shared game world we're all playing in, and there's a reason the two primary rules are "Common Sense" and "Respect". It feels like both have been in short supply of late. And while yes, I can step in when I'm needed to arbitrate, my patience, and my time, is ultimately a finite thing. The more it burns down the less energy and interest I have in playing, let alone trying to take on big projects like adding areas, features, running events, or scripts. I speak only for myself in this, though I'm pretty sure it's much the same for Vincent, and I know it's mostly that way for the DMs who'd rather be storytelling than breaking up arguments.

The second is that I'm going to reiterate that we're not going to ban people simply because others don't like their character IC. It's not that sort of server, though I think people may have somehow gotten the mistaken impression that it is. Characters don't have to get along, and indeed, some level of rivalry/antagonism is something I see as highly desirable. What's not desirable is the fact that it seems to instantly proceed to OOC hate of the player behind the character.

Now, certainly we're wary of the kinds of OOC bullying I remember from the old pre-CD days on MD. If we get to feeling like a player/character is taking that tack, we'll handle it... but let me state that nothing I've seen in any of CD's recent past even comes close to that sort of hostility. Having an argument in a common area, even one that turns to RP fighting (or even engine combat) is vastly different than being constantly hunted by someone who believes your character is wrongly played/doesn't belong and has decided to 'take justice into their own hands' because the admins won't.

Where does it end? I wish I knew. This isn't something I can easily untwine by removing one player, because this whole problem, and the underlying attitudes behind it, seem to be pervasive throughout the server culture somehow... and I'd prefer to not just shut the place down and try to start over, since I don't think there'd be much starting over at that point.

dom101 · Sep 24, 2014, 11:37 PM

I have a good idea where this is stemming from. And I have ever since joining this server been more than willing to accept IC consequences for IC actions. I've been forced to inform people of this in tells a few times of late. My character does get punished, when he does stupid shit. People may disagree, but I'll remind you he was once a Knight and is no longer. I wasn't ooc'ly punished, much to the dismay of a few I'm certain. I'm intimately aware my play can trouble people at time, and I attempt to give those people a great deal of leeway in response. Sometimes, patience run out. I apologize to anyone who's feeling bullied or ooc'ly antagonized by me or my character. I don't go out of my way to do so; though I will admit there are times when I feel it is IC'ly warranted.

enarian123 · Sep 25, 2014, 02:30 AM

Just do as you want, as long as you don't break rules.

The Red Mage · Sep 25, 2014, 08:12 AM

As someone who was antagonized for a long time for decisions I made and characters I played,(Elf still only RPs with Marziima with threats and death glares! He must hate me!) I can say there are alternatives around it, and the server is a million times better and more friendly to newer players than it previously was. However, as the average server population is lower, this family can split comfortably into one or two groups at times and may not be easily accessible to everyone. This isn't something that can be fixed, but if you're relatively new to the server, please take this issue OOC with the players if you can. Most of us -want- to help you and -want- to RP with you even if your character is the opposite. We'll fine -something- that works, even if we have to roll another character or make up something to give some common ground.

tldr; please approach us OOCly if you're frustrated ICly. If people can help you they will. If they don't, try someone else. We want all the players we can get. Unless you're awful.

Arya · Sep 25, 2014, 09:28 AM

Sept 25, 2014 8:12:48 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

...We want all the players we can get. Unless you're awful.

Oops. Should I be here? ;-)

~Arya

Postscript: Will come up with something more serious when I get home from work...

onivel · Sep 25, 2014, 05:13 PM

IC conflict is fine.Enjoyable even (though not for some) its when it crosses the border into OOC harassment that I have problems with. No I don't think a single instance should result in banning, but repeated instances should invoke a scaled response that yes can lead to banning.

OOC comments regarding the way a player plays their PC, questioning whether a player is " Retarded " or similar comments either in open of tells do not belong on this or any server.

Have respect, get respect. Give none, don't expect any in return.

trylobyte · Sep 25, 2014, 06:29 PM

Okay, so as the person on the other side of the coin as Dom and the one that seems to be the sounding board for most of the complaints people have about him, let's try to work this out productively.

We all know Bass is a troll, an asshole, and a bully. They are, arguably, defining traits of his character. And asshole characters aren't all bad - I play one myself on another server and find a lot of success with it. The problem is that people tend to interpret his out-of-character actions through the prism of Bass's in-character actions because they don't know him well enough to think he's doing anything other than being a dick to them as a player, something not helped by the fact he occasionally does things that are extremely easy to misinterpret as OOC hostility or harassment campaigns. I should know, I've been the target of one in the distant past, and I did take it as an OOC harassment campaign because Bass and his followers at the time (Aetrus and Janga) would seem to go out of their way to find Aelie and bother her even if she wasn't doing anything. Especially if she wasn't doing anything. Why? Because I considered it IC on Aelie's part to respond to them, thus continuing the cycle of trolling until eventually I got too frustrated to bother with it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that different people have different tolerances for certain types of behavior. What's good IC fun to some people is something other people don't want to deal with OOCly, and these people may not speak up about it immediately if they suspect the first group isn't going to listen or even if it breaks character. If you push people too hard with antagonistic behavior or overreact to minor slights when all they want to do is log in and have fun, then they're going to assume you're targeting them specifically and they're going to get upset. Example, me. I'm a paranoid sort so I'm very quick to assume OOC motivations for a lot of things and I tend to see enemies where they're not, so I have a very low tolerance for player antagonism before I start feeling targeted. Depressed players who are playing for an escape may not tolerate any sort of antagonistic behavior well since it's dragging drama into something they want to have fun playing. Further, someone so offended is going to complain to their friends about it and it's only going to spread like some sort of virus, splitting the server into 'for' and 'against' groups until one group leaves in anger and frustration. This causes a -lot- of problems and misunderstandings, since the people who hear about the bad things going on may be totally disconnected from the people who can do anything about it, and because of the presumption of OOC intent they're not very likely to talk about it since everyone knows acknowledging a 'troll' is getting to you is essentially an admission of defeat.

Another problem occurs, interestingly, with IC groups. If a group is big enough and contains enough people, then anyone not in that group gets left out of anything. There was a perfect example tonight, with Bass gathering a hunting expedition. He invited everyone nearby... except for my character. Now, here's the thing - Even though I know he had an IC reason to not invite her (half-fiend and aasimar) it still pissed me off because I knew it meant I was going to have absolutely nothing to do until that group got back because everyone else was in it. This breeds resentment when it happens often enough because it looks like an attempt to isolate someone and bore them off the server. This is one of the more specific complaints I've heard lately from others as well, so it bears mentioning.

I know one player who has almost definitely quit and three more who are seriously thinking about it simply because of this ongoing problem. I have a definite interest in getting this resolved for the continued health of the server. So, let's talk it out.

The Nameless Bard · Sep 25, 2014, 07:04 PM

I have absolutely no idea what's going on here, but allow me to offer some advice:

1. Pretty much all people will be fairly receptive to something like:

"Hello Friend, I do not care for this line of RP, how about we do [insert other idea] or maybe you have an alternate idea? Just not my cup of tea, yaknow? Lets meet in the OOC room and talk it out."

2. Get over your own stubbornness in disliking that person/character or assuming that they're not willing to be friendly and send that tell!

I came to this server back in beta (7 years ago?). Problem began to arise for two of the people I arrived with and they didn't do either of these things despite my suggestions to do so. They were both eventually banned, which is quite an accomplishment for CD.

The Red Mage · Sep 25, 2014, 09:26 PM

Sept 25, 2014 18:29:58 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

He invited everyone nearby... except for my character. Now, here's the thing - Even though I know he had an IC reason to not invite her (half-fiend and aasimar) it still pissed me off because I knew it meant I was going to have absolutely nothing to do until that group got back because everyone else was in it.

I agreed with most of your post up until this part. You told me the group was way too big for you to come along. If you really wanted to go, you could've asked. I don't know the relationship between the parties, but it's better to ask if you want to go somewhere. I still have to do it all the time, or I'll ask just for clarity if I'm assumed to be invited anyway.

I understand not being invited or understanding my characters(RWs) aren't welcome in outings, but it's still better to present the situation vocally, ICly, sometimes. Even if it's met with a no or some kind of insult, it's a small gateway to progressive RP in a relationship type of way. You could eventually chip your way into a group or change opinions or others things. At least, that's me being hopeful.

Maybe I'm too compassionate and willing to RP with almost everyone regardless of what character I'm on, but it doesn't start most of the time unless someone approaches the other.

-Edit- I apologize if that seemed rude to call you out. We've spoken intensively on this subject in the past, and you know that me being honest with you is in the best intentions. I love you.

trylobyte · Sep 25, 2014, 09:32 PM

Sept 25, 2014 21:26:01 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

Sept 25, 2014 18:29:58 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

He invited everyone nearby... except for my character. Now, here's the thing - Even though I know he had an IC reason to not invite her (half-fiend and aasimar) it still pissed me off because I knew it meant I was going to have absolutely nothing to do until that group got back because everyone else was in it.

I agreed with most of your post up until this part. You told me the group was way too big for you to come along. If you really wanted to go, you could've asked. I don't know the relationship between the parties, but it's better to ask if you want to go somewhere. I still have to do it all the time, or I'll ask just for clarity if I'm assumed to be invited anyway.

I did initially, since we all know I don't like large groups. Then, after you left to go get ready, I changed my mind after looking at the player list and realizing the dilemma I'd be in so I did ask to go, only to be immediately shut down. That annoyed me.

Edit: The honesty is appreciated.

And just as a CYA maneuver, I screenshotted it. No hypocrisy for me!

Another point while I'm editing. Since I posted the first thing I've had someone 'correct' me to say they were insulted and made to feel unwelcome in a blatantly OOC way at one time or another, which furthers their perceptions that it's not just an IC issue. Not the first time I've heard that complaint either.

Arya · Sep 25, 2014, 10:38 PM

So, I am going to speak about this topic now that I have arrived home from work, and have some coherence in me.

Much of my lack of playing in Arabel has been due to a busy work schedule, thus I end up only RPing with a handful of people until things let up IRL. However, another part of why I have not been spending my player-time in Arabel is the fact that...quite frankly, no one can get along OOCly. Some IC antagonism is expected, but lately, I have been feeling that there is some hostile roleplay that is OOCly motivated. And truth be told, it is not one party or another. There are some who are taking roleplay in-character, as OOC slights, and retaliating accordingly. These people are not even checking in or trying to seek feedback on the situation; no one is communicating, so problems are festering. I can feel it in a lot of interactions there, no matter their form.

There also seems to be grudge holding over perceived slights (that might or might not even be there). And again, no one is talking to each other. A ton of backbiting is going on. The more I hear of this going on, the more I can only wonder...what is being said about me, by some of these people?

I love CD, and I really do not want anything bad to happen to it. But with some of the stress going on at work, I cannot play in an environment like this, and am only barely able to DM more than play in one like it. Without mentioning names, here are some more specific examples of what I have noticed, and none of it seems to be resolved.

1. One or more person has issued complaints to the admins with expectation for punishment to come, yet had not tried to communicate with those who s/he thought slighted him/her, to see what was going on, first.

2. Others are upset that there is apparently OOC harassment going on, but there has been no screenshots or proof that this harassment is going on. Thus I am left helpless and telling them to keep records/screens/etc and report it to the admins.

3. And apparently, people are assembling in different groups, wanting one side or the other to be punished now. Grudges are also being held far longer than necessary.

I would like to see all of these issues resolved. I am sorry, but I cannot have much sympathy for number "1.", and while I can understand some hesitation or forgetfulness on addressing "2.," it needs done if more direct action is expected. "3."...well, for every finger pointed, three are pointing back. This needs stopped. So much tension, hatred, and jealousy should not be in a game server. If anything, we all are coming here to have fun. At the least, I would like to think so.

There really only is a handful of people I have ever disliked on this server. So I really feel awful when I see people I enjoy playing with being angry/hateful/etc toward each other.

Sincerely,
Arya

Fire Wraith · Sep 25, 2014, 10:59 PM

Let me also toss in something here.

Alone save for Vincent, I've been here for pretty much the entire lifespan of CD.

All of this has happened before, again and again.

We've tried affixing blame, we've tried chatting nicely with people, we've banned people, we've tried a lot of stuff that hasn't worked.

The Cycle goes something like this:

Server builds population, stuff goes on, groups form, activity builds.
Conflicts start popping up.
IC conflict bleeds into OOC conflicts, Player X dislikes Player Y, Group A/VariousPlayers/etc thinks Group B is an elitist clique, and so forth.
We try to intervene, first to try and smooth things over, then more strongly as that fails to solve anything.
Stuff happens, we ban someone or permakill a character to enforce consequences or something.
People quit because we cracked down on their friend, and others quit because they think we didn't do enough or didn't do it fast enough.
Server population dies off, stuff stops happening. Eventually the cycle starts over again.

But over time, the average population has dwindled with every cycle, to the point that now our high point is well below what the 'low' once was. And we can't keep repeating it and keep things going.

My overall point is this:

Player count is up. Interesting stuff is happening IC.

Why the fuck can't people get along and try to make the game a better place rather than constantly pointing fingers at your fellow players?

dom101 · Sep 26, 2014, 01:50 AM

I'm going to come out and say this now. Yes, I avoid certain people. I have IC and OOC reasons for doing so, I don't look at a new player and say "You're so Underpowered, no thanks" ... I look at people's RP and how they react to what goes on with Bass and if they're easy going? They are assimilated into the group of people I enjoy playing with. I continuously seek out new players, in fact who are fun to be around, and aren't bitter vets. Because at some point bitter vets turn me into a curmudgeon and I hate life. I don't like hating life.

I wont take blame for 'stealing' the player-base though. I don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. The reason the majority of people went with me, and then to Stonehaven isn't because I forced them. It's because it's where we prefer to play. We're not a clique as so many are accusing us. We just enjoy the care-free, judgement-free RP of one another. We toss out dick jokes. IC'ly. It's fun. People don't like it and those people aren't sought after for our attention. I don't want to sit through a 40 minute diatribe about how awesome someone's character is. I don't want to sit and have people egg me into a verbal contest, only to have them get incredibly upset with me ooc'ly when I respond. I want to joke around, I want to toss barbs back and forth, and I want to enjoy my time on the server. Honestly, I've heard and had to deal with it all on C/D. I still come back. People harass the players I RP with about how shitty of a person I am. They still play with me. People harass me about how shitty of a person I am and how I should change my RP. I wont. I keep 99% of what goes on in CD IC, until that 1% takes everything out of character and assumes I'm some maniac behind the screen, who's only goal is to make them feel bad OOC'ly.

NWN is a dead game. There it is. It's dead. There are hundreds of thousands of other games out there. I'm well aware of this, and I go out of my way to try and make sure people are having fun around me. If they're not, I retreat to Stonehaven. I can't help it if the majority of the server finds themselves there with me. I try to involve anyone that has a reason to RP with Bass; anyone. Vincent has a few characters I try to go out of my way to involve. So does Red Mage. Recently Jared returned, and Remmy and I didn't get along at all on MD. We've been RP'ing together almost every day. Bass isn't any nicer to him than most, yet he sticks it out and you know what? Jared will eventually earn his place with Bass and the fuck-about will stop. Not because of his mechanics or his levels. But because he's putting in effort to get past the sour exterior. A lot of other people have done this as well. People that hate Bass, tend not to even try. And chalk me up as a shitty person. Well. I'll keep my shitty antics in Stonehaven, but it's not my fault when the square is practically dead every night.

And I invite certain people out on adventures for the same reason I -never- sign up for events. Because those people I invite, are willing to put up with the toxic character I play. I refuse to force it on anyone else.

EDIT: And in case anyone hasn't noticed it yet, I put -zero- credibility on levels or what gear you have. I couldn't care less if you can spam HIPS and kill my character; if your IC actions dissuade me from interacting with you in a positive light, well, that's just how it is. If you're level 3 and have an interesting way about your RP (Male or female) I'm going to try to involve you in things. It's how I've always been here.

sinisteromnibus · Sep 26, 2014, 02:24 AM

Sept 26, 2014 1:50:06 GMT -5 dom101 said:

I'm going to come out and say this now. Yes, I avoid certain people. I have IC and OOC reasons for doing so, I don't look at a new player and say "You're so Underpowered, no thanks" ... I look at people's RP and how they react to what goes on with Bass and if they're easy going? They are assimilated into the group of people I enjoy playing with. I continuously seek out new players, in fact who are fun to be around, and aren't bitter vets. Because at some point bitter vets turn me into a curmudgeon and I hate life. I don't like hating life.

I wont take blame for 'stealing' the player-base though. I don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. The reason the majority of people went with me, and then to Stonehaven isn't because I forced them. It's because it's where we prefer to play. We're not a clique as so many are accusing us. We just enjoy the care-free, judgement-free RP of one another. We toss out dick jokes. IC'ly. It's fun. People don't like it and those people aren't sought after for our attention. I don't want to sit through a 40 minute diatribe about how awesome someone's character is. I don't want to sit and have people egg me into a verbal contest, only to have them get incredibly upset with me ooc'ly when I respond. I want to joke around, I want to toss barbs back and forth, and I want to enjoy my time on the server. Honestly, I've heard and had to deal with it all on C/D. I still come back. People harass the players I RP with about how shitty of a person I am. They still play with me. People harass me about how shitty of a person I am and how I should change my RP. I wont. I keep 99% of what goes on in CD IC, until that 1% takes everything out of character and assumes I'm some maniac behind the screen, who's only goal is to make them feel bad OOC'ly.

NWN is a dead game. There it is. It's dead. There are hundreds of thousands of other games out there. I'm well aware of this, and I go out of my way to try and make sure people are having fun around me. If they're not, I retreat to Stonehaven. I can't help it if the majority of the server finds themselves there with me. I try to involve anyone that has a reason to RP with Bass; anyone. Vincent has a few characters I try to go out of my way to involve. So does Red Mage. Recently Jared returned, and Remmy and I didn't get along at all on MD. We've been RP'ing together almost every day. Bass isn't any nicer to him than most, yet he sticks it out and you know what? Jared will eventually earn his place with Bass and the fuck-about will stop. Not because of his mechanics or his levels. But because he's putting in effort to get past the sour exterior. A lot of other people have done this as well. People that hate Bass, tend not to even try. And chalk me up as a shitty person. Well. I'll keep my shitty antics in Stonehaven, but it's not my fault when the square is practically dead every night.

And I invite certain people out on adventures for the same reason I -never- sign up for events. Because those people I invite, are willing to put up with the toxic character I play. I refuse to force it on anyone else.

I refuse to dick ride, but I will say something here.

Way back when I first made Voss I heard from more than one person that I should be careful not to rp him at all as "this asshole Bass" did.

I was like: "Wow...who is this guy and what's so bad?" I heard a -lot- of stuff out of character about Bass's player before I ever even saw his character on the server. It was pretty disgusting.

My first interaction with Bass on Voss we were both sitting in the square - just rping. Bass went out of his way to approach Voss for no other reason than he had taken the time to read my bio and saw that Voss used axes - and he used axes. The player went out of their way to find common ground and explore it by getting interested in mine. He stepped outside of his own story for a moment to become a part of mine.

That one little act was actually the first time anyone had done anything like that with Voss (with the exception of my fiancee who plays next to me and has inside info. <.< - and made me add this!). Voss and Bass clashed at first, but then the strangest thing happened.

Through rp they kept finding more and more common ground, and soon their power struggles became grudging respect...which turned into true respect...which turned into mutual admiration - that's right. If rp is to be judged, an epic level half-balor Chosen of Tempus -admires- a level 12 barbarian.

To this day I have yet to see another instance of this when there's such a vast difference in levels, and to be honest it impressed me because it reminded me that CD isn't just about mechanics or your build. It's about your -character-. Who they are and what makes them that way. Level shouldn't come into play at all on that account since it's just numbers and mechanics.

I didn't want to chime in here, but yeah, Dom puts it bluntly but truly. Before I started playing with Bass and then through him with Rhea, I had not once had an interaction with a character above level 16 that didn't make my characters feel like they'd just wasted time. And nearly every interaction with my characters that involved one of these 'bitter vets' he mentions has been unpleasant In-character, and that's fine. I don't judge, and my characters respond accordingly...

But then it seems to move ooc and I start getting tells about "why do all my characters hate theirs for no reason." Well, they hate your character because he or she is consistently an asshole and realistically most people don't want to have anything to do with someone who treats them like an asshole -for no apparent reason-.

Bass is an asshole, but I've yet to see him act that out without cause, and so my -one- character that has gotten to know him respects him.

OOC I have immense respect for the player because despite the fact that as a newer player with no experience on the server people were already bad-mouthing him as a player to me he's still here. He has every right to be a "bitter vet" and to complain about people not liking his character, but he doesn't. He takes IC consequences IC and because he does the rp is imaginative, meaningful, purposeful, and creative (as well as immature and zany a lot of the time), and the saddest part is if people could rp conflict without letting it bleed into ooc they'd have more fun with and around Bass (the character).

He'd make an awesome antagonist if the protagonists would stop bitching at the author every time he hurts their feelings. I mean...really? Did Superman ever cry to the comic book writer about Lex Luthor trolling him? Do the X-Men try to get their enemies deleted from the universe by their writers whenever Magneto lays the smackdown on a weaker member? Did Frodo ask Tolkien to make Sauron play nice?

No.

The heroes in our favorite stories accept that the villains are villains and expect nothing less. They don't have a concept of "out of character" and if you want to make truly great stories with your characters you shouldn't allow yourself to either when considering the motivations of other -characters-.

And when dealing with other -players- ooc you should just remember the server rules of common sense and respect. It's simple.

ClockworkMayhem · Sep 26, 2014, 02:31 AM

That one little act was actually the first time anyone had done anything like that with Voss (with the exception of my fiancee who plays next to me and has inside info. <.< - and made me add this!). Voss and Bass clashed at first, but then the strangest thing happened.

Lies and slander, sir.