Beating the (Un)dead Horse: IC, OOC, Antagonism, Issues, etc

[Nevermore]

As the issue is still being discussed, I just want to say that I do take full responsibility for my actions and for the outcome of this quest. I would be very honored if we could learn from and get past it at this point. 

I do also want to let you know. I did ask Onivel for help as he is my superior on the being an experience DM. I thanked him completely while I was overwelmed and trying to cope. I have spoken with my highers and have learned what was wrong and how to improve it in the future. 

I thank you all for considering to reflect on these words and events and urge us all to come back to a realm of respect. I have been speaking with involved parties and will continue to do so. 

Thank you again, Nevermore

[Fire Wraith]

Oct 5, 2014 21:27:38 GMT -5  @runsfasternaked said:

From my first taste here CD SEEMED like that place. Now I'm not so sure. It seems like the onus is on everyone else to just let the antagonistic characters do whatever, regardless of how it infringes on someone else's definition of fun. So far those choices have been avoid it (essentially bow out of quests and areas where antagonist RP is frequently occuring), engage it (which will end in PvP which not all enjoy) or OOCly ignore it to get through the quest. Hmm sounds a bit like other characters been reduced to just being an NPC in an antagonistic character's single player game. That sucks.

But again,
There are plenty of other venues if you want to play an antagonistic character that prefers to settle IC disputes via violence or intimidation. Why does CD have to be that place?

How about because that's part of the design?

Let me chime in and say what CD is and isn't.

It's not a place where people are all supposed to work together and be friends ICly.

It's not a place where people aren't allowed to play antagonistic or villainous characters.

It is a place where people are expected to play nice on an OOC level, even if their characters are diametrically opposed, because the point of the game isn't about who "wins", it's about creating a compelling story - something that has room for both good and bad, villain and hero.

Nobody is expected to just "let" themselves be trampled on, and we take great pains to prevent anyone from being able to go so far as to do that, no matter what part of the alignment spectrum they fall on. That doesn't mean that IC conflicts can't be resolved through whatever methods are acceptable to the players involved.

[sinisteromnibus]

Oct 5, 2014 21:27:38 GMT -5  @runsfasternaked said:

Have you asked the same of yourself?

I am requesting - begging - as a player here who wants -everyone- to be able to have fun. If you are one of these people, please grow the up or find a server that expects to cater to your needs and no one else's.

Why is it that if folks don't agree with your idea of fun ICly that they are the one's that have to have their needs specifically catered to elsewhere?

Look I'll be honest, I grew up cutting my teeth and throughout all my time gaming with 1 core precept and rule: These RPG games (DnD especially) are about collaboration and cooperation.

That onus was on every player. And if you decided to make one that made cooperation and collaboration difficult for whatever reason that sh*t was on you. Not me, not the other players at the table, you. PERIOD.

From my first taste here CD SEEMED like that place. Now I'm not so sure. It seems like the onus is on everyone else to just let the antagonistic characters do whatever, regardless of how it infringes on someone else's definition of fun. So far those choices have been avoid it (essentially bow out of quests and areas where antagonist RP is frequently occuring), engage it (which will end in PvP which not all enjoy) or OOCly ignore it to get through the quest. Hmm sounds a bit like other characters been reduced to just being an NPC in an antagonistic character's single player game. That sucks.

But again,
There are plenty of other venues if you want to play an antagonistic character that prefers to settle IC disputes via violence or intimidation. Why does CD have to be that place?

Umm...no one has disagreed with my idea of fun ICly or otherwise openly...as it tends to be "treat others courteously and understand that there are other stories besides your own". I -have- fun on the server most of the time, and those around me seem to as well with the exception of infrequent interactions such as these that get way more ooc attention than they deserve.

And since the rest of your post actually echoes one of mine from a previous thread I'm not really sure what else to say. I recall attempting to give your character a chance to rp with mine so you could form these opinions that you've based off what you've seen solely ooc...and you didn't seem inclined to take me up for whatever reason. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but until you've actually dealt with the characters in-character maybe it's better to just let things be. The irony in all this is Voss doesn't typically resort to violence and intimidation as most seem to think he does. And by most I mean those who have not rped with him once beyond 15 minutes.

Again, I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but having talked to you ooc before in game I wish to invite you ooc again -as I've done IC - to the opportunity to get to know more about a character instead of making assumptions.

[Arya]

At this point, I am kind of with Edge on the topic.  I really want people to start getting along and talking things out, instead of assuming the other person is some horrible monster. I am looking forward to closure on this within the next days, however that looks.  

I have faith it will not require some of the drastic measures contemplated here. :-)

Sincerely,
Arya

Postscript: no leaving, Edge. >:-( Or I will be sad!

[Deleted]

And since the rest of your post actually echoes one of mine from a previous thread I'm not really sure what else to say. I recall attempting to give your character a chance to rp with mine so you could form these opinions that you've based off what you've seen solely ooc.

What my characters saw was sufficient to know that they wouldn't want to know those antagonistic characters IC or know those antagonistic characters in any way other than to be wary of. That had nothing to do with OOC assumptions, of which I've made none, I've made assertions based on what has been brought forth in this thread and argued essentially a hypothetical position to get to a more concise answer. Which Firewraith answered concisely.

I've never had a problem with the antagonistic characters on the server directly, because my characters see them interact for about three lines of dialogue in the square and think better of further association and certainly would in no way want to have them watching their backs. For good or for ill that is how my PC responded to those characters. All IC. 

I've dodged quests involving those same PCs, as I think its rude to sign up for a quest then bow out because the characters involved aren't those my character would trust ICly enough to travel with them. Or at least there haven't been any quests that ICly my character would care/motivate my character enough to deal with that level of distrust. Or provide other motivations to observe those characters. Again all IC aside from OOC courtesy for the other players on the server, myself and the DM. I see this however as a problem that could emerge for other players.

And it is rare that I interact OOCly, truly the only times I do are to clarify some server specific point of lore,
or during a quest with a DM. There are a few I chat with about lore in general OOCly but I like to maintain my immersion ICly and chatting OOC detracts from that at times.

[Fire Wraith]

Honestly, I'd rather people arrange to not be in the same quests if it's going to devolve into a gigantic argument that derails the DM's plans. I don't think that sort of thing is really fun for anyone involved, and is best avoided. Having to arrange around that is a lesser evil, in my mind, at that point.

Ideally though, it wouldn't come to that in the first place, and we wouldn't be trying to shoehorn everyone into the same adventure. Failing that, some more agreement and working together to resolve the IC issues without it turning into a big OOC argument - which from what I've seen of the screenshots so far, it was even before it came to a head - would be the next best thing. But failing those, yes.

[onivel]

Oct 5, 2014 23:35:34 GMT -5 Arya Kalarathri said:

At this point, I am kind of with Edge on the topic.  I really want people to start getting along and talking things out, instead of assuming the other person is some horrible monster. I am looking forward to closure on this within the next days, however that looks.  

I have faith it will not require some of the drastic measures contemplated here. :-)

Sincerely,
Arya

Postscript: no leaving, Edge. >:-( Or I will be sad!

I think those in attendance had a fairly nice productive conversation in OOC last night.

[Edge]

I've gotten like five messages from different places promising everything from bribes to bodily harm if I leave. Relax guys, I'm not going anywhere yet.

I'd like to also state how happy the kobolds would be if you left.  Because, you know they run the troll outfit with type writers beneath the earth.  

[Edge]

*snerk*

[The Red Mage]

I disagree arya! I wish more people treated others like the monsters they really are instead of the unusually attractive half monster with a black book on blushing brides.

And this post is a good example of how exhausted this thread is now. It's undeniable ecl are mechanical powerhouses and there's clear evidence that spans back years and years regarding which ecl are chosen to compliment foreplanned, desired builds. But cd is just a sandbox that let's people have fun within this setting. Do I think the setting is being taken advantage of or wish it were different? Yeah, I do. I wish it were more hard core and fundamental, and if there was ever a server for me out there like that, I would've went there.

But this is what I got. And I want everyone who participates creatively to make my free time here interesting to have fun. It isn't their fault I enjoy playing with handicaps so the game is more challenging and enjoyable to me. It isn't their fault I have prejudices against their character ideas because I've seen it already. But it is my fault if I never give then a chance to relax, play, and try my best to get involved anyway. That's all me.

And fuck fixing typoes on a phone. Deal with it.

[Fire Wraith]

Honestly that's more what I'd originally envisioned (in roleplay terms). There's a lot of things in CD that were built around the assumption that various things would be approached in a more 'hardcore' fashion than they are presently. It's evolved over time though, and CD is what it is because of the community, not because I (or the other admins) have forced it to be. There are some things on which we absolutely draw the line, but we also try to choose our battles in that space. I've seen far too many servers where the staff tried to hold back the tide, and force their player community to do things and act in ways that weren't fun for everyone... and I didn't want us to go that way.

[The Red Mage]

Just realized that I posted on the wrong thread. Whoops.