Beating the (Un)dead Horse: IC, OOC, Antagonism, Issues, etc

[trylobyte]

Sept 26, 2014 12:32:27 GMT -5 dom101 said:

First; I deal with posts like this every time I'm active and drawing attention toward Stonehaven, rather than people mulling about in the square to be antagonized or bullied by epics.  Case and point?  2 epics bullying a lowbie bard for his interest in talking to dragons and learning songs from them.  Case and point?  An epic mage forcing a lowbie fighter into a pvp scenario and then 'smelling'  meta-gamed out the ass information.  I'm not joking, this player claimed their HUMAN mage could SMELL something on this person.  Smell it.  The real problem is people don't want to imagine their characters as infallible or that they can be outwitted.  The real problem is people think every story should revolve around them.  Then the issue is the fact blunt and simply: most of the time those characters are boring.

Sure that character (And there are many I'm thinking about) may jump on board every event the server offers, but that doesn't equate to them being any more interesting.  From my point of view.  I'm a firm believer as well that epics should be trying to encourage lower level characters to do things, no stifling their play with "LOOK AT ME I'M HIGHER LEVEL AND YOU WILL BOW TO ME" attitudes.  That said, people that antagonize epics time and time again, aren't going to enjoy playing that character much.  IC consequences for IC actions.  

So saying the 'battle lines' were drawn weeks ago, is a horrible misconception.  The 'battle lines' were drawn when I first stepped foot into the square with Bass and he refused to kiss certain epic ass.  

As far as our Chat, we've had them and continue to have them and will have more in the future I'm sure.  The outcome is always the same.  Neither of us appears to have an issue with the other and we go about our day.  My IC reasons behind disliking Mista?  Are IC.  Xen'traya?  Also IC.  Aelie?  Again, IC.  But if you'd like a general breakdown of why my character doesn't care for them.  Sure.  

He sees Mista as a waste of time and energy; she made up her mind on who and what Bass is, because he has horns.  Acceptable.  Her attempt to join him on an adventure was of convenience.  He doesn't do fair-weather associates.

Xen'traya is seen as a traitor.  You know the reasons behind that and the implications are potentially Meta-gamy.  So I wont go into further detail.

Aelie not only jumped on Victoria's band-wagon when she would mindlessly yammer on and on about how horrible Bass was, but she also did the exact same thing when Bass had issues with Aesa.  AND TO TOP IT OFF, she's a blatant ally of Aesa's.   In case you were wondering, it's never been a secret Bass dislikes Aesa.

Now, everyone that seems to be complaining to you is complaining about my bullying.  Regardless whom these people are, and I'm pretty sure I know who they are, let's have a run down of how OOC'ly I've gone out of my way to change my character to try in some futile way to appease the server.

Issue: Was Chaotic Evil.  Did evil things.  Was evil.  Was told it was too evil.  Told to tone it down.  Told to fuck off, kill myself and any manner of other things.  All OOC by the way.  In tells.  (I don't run to the Admins with any issues I have with players.  They have better things to do with their time than have me tattling about silly nonsense on the internet.  Some people should take that into consideration.)

Solution:  I took 9 months and role-played as a fallen cleric.  9.  (Some people waited longer; sorry about that Darvins)  I asked politely for a fallen token, and then spent that time IC'ly searching for a new deity.  I spent countless hours with half a dozen characters, even some Bass couldn't stand, learning of which deity would have been best for him.  Tempus was eventually settled upon.  I also, when capped (Which means got zero xp for it) devised an idea with Wicked and Destructo12 that would go on to involve almost a dozen characters (some of whom got epic because of the event) in earning Tempus' favor.  

Result:  Bass is still too much of an asshole.  He should be banned for making our feelings hurt IC'ly.

Let's move on.

Issue:  Mechanically built too powerfully.  A half-demon cleric, blackguard who used the Netherese spellblade (The dispel one) was too op and on one hit dispelled all scrolls/potions from people.  That wasn't acceptable and EVEN THOUGH ONLY PVP'D TWICE, BOTH TIMES IN THE ARENA, ... it wasn't allowing others to be on an even footing.

Solution:  I chose to have him rebuilt into a cleric/fighter and RP altered to step away from a demon lord and serve a CN deity.   A CN deity that doesn't condone blackguards.  Also, a CN deity that demanded he use ONLY his battleaxe.  I dropped things like Divine Shield / Divine might.  I dropped Improved expertise.  I avoided situations where pvp would determine the outcome of a heated argument.

Result:  Oh, well ... the ECL is just stupid and shouldn't be played in that manner; they're villians so they should just lay down and take what we give them.

I'll offer one more in an attempt to be brief.

Issue:  Spending too much time in the square alienating, bullying, and all around assholing on people.  Hiding behind guards and mechanics that force players to feel powerless against me/Bass, because he isn't breaking rules, but just verbally accosting people.  It was said the only reason I 'got away' with things is because of anything from sexual favors to donating large sums of money to the admins.  All hilarious accusations and entirely baseless.  I'm broke as a joke; sometimes I can barely pay my cable bill.  Large sums of money.  Yeah.  Okay.

Solution:  I gather a few people that don't seem to mind my form of RP and I get along with really well ooc'ly, and we conspire to create a new place for us to spend time.  A haven for our preferred form of Roleplay.  Stonehaven is born and after just over two years of RP without any form of DM interaction short of a wonderfully done piece with Sidhe of Bass becoming a Knight of Marliir; the area was put in the module.  For those wondering how it's even possible for Bass to have been considered a knight, I assure you it wasn't easy.  And it took a great deal of effort on many player's parts.  Anyway, Stonehaven came in and people liked it.  A lot of people.

Result:  Oh noes, you've split the server; now everyone goes to Stonehaven to RP except for a choice few.  Huh.  I leave the server center and try to play elsewhere, not forcing my RP on people and they choose to come to Stonehaven.  Interesting.  Clearly that's my fault and I should be punished.  Or, as I was told ... give it to another player who clearly deserved it more.  Or, as I was told ... let it become a ruin in another player's epic drama to become evil.  Or, as I was told ... hand it over to DM control so everyone could go there.  A little known fact, ... I invited everyone there.  I've never told anyone they couldn't come to Stonehaven, or play there.  People that choose not to seem to either have an issue with me ooc'ly or can't stand Bass IC'ly.  I can't change that, so I don't dwell on it.

At any rate, I've rambled longer than I anticipated.  Sadly, I'll end up getting bored with all the ooc hate again.  Not that it ever bothers me, mind you.  It just gets boring after awhile.  Then, with conflict simmering and everyone singing camp fire songs together in the square, interest will wane.  Population will drop off.  And people will complain about it being dead.  Oh, another little known fact?  Since I started playing C/D after leaving MD/GC, I've never played on another server.  I logged into Sinfar a few times to try to get people to come RP with me on C/D, but I never actively played elsewhere.  I was invited no less than a dozen times to other servers, with promises of everything from being on the DM team to assisting adminning.  If what FW and Vincent have to put up with is any indication on what I was looking at?  I'd burn my computer first.  So when I take a break, it's not to play elsewhere or draw players to another server.  It's to avoid another cycle of whinging that happens -every- time I start becoming more active and doing things.

In closing; years long animosity?  I don't have any animosity for you.  There are two people I couldn't possibly care any less for that have ever played on this server, and I'm positive they know whom they are.  Neither are active as far as I've seen.  I don't dislike anyone else ooc'ly on this server, and I often go out of my way to speak with them if they approach me first.  Problem is, if your intent is to ooc'ly change my mind on how to play my 4 year old character?  You might as well save it, because I have no time for that.  I don't tell people how to play theirs in any manner ooc or ic, I'd appreciate it if people would stop thinking they have the right to do so to me.

Some points.

1)  Since Aelie was one of the epics 'bullying' that bard...  No,  She wasn't bullying him.  She was making fun of his ultimate goal as she understood it because it was, in her eyes, a completely laughable one, like trying to get Tempus and Sune married by writing an awesome fanfic.  She was telling him it wasn't going to happen as he thought because, well, reality doesn't work that way.  The fact she misunderstood what his goal actually was wound up being important, and once she learned that she pretty much stopped bugging him because things made more sense.  This relates to my earlier point of dueling perceptions - I didn't see it as bullying but perhaps that player did, and if they did I didn't know about it.  As for the 'sniff test' I can't say I remember that one - I don't think I was there for it.  And boring characters?  Yeah, I know Aelie is boring for most people.  That's why you haven't seen her much - I don't know what to do with her so I'm trying to develop another, more interesting character.  Whether or not I'm succeeding is a whole different story.

2)  I have to take some amusement about your line of antagonizing epics, considering you antagonized the hell out of an epic or near-epic Aelie when you were level 8-10 and the only things that stopped her from hunting Bass down and killing him until the character was no longer viable to play were the server PvP rules of the day (they're much more lenient now) and the fact I'd feel like a scumbag OOCly for ambush-killing someone half my level.  Essentially, you're saying that you refused to kiss epic ass and you antagonized them.  But those epics let you go anyway even though you gave them motive and opportunity to kill you.  Now that you are the epic, It feels like you're turning around and bullying lower-levels that antagonize you, not giving them the same chance you yourself were given.  Whether or not this is true (and if so, how true) is all down to perception, but the perception is there.

3)  As for our chats...  We don't actually talk all that much OOCly.  We go back and forth on the forums occasionally, like now, or sometimes swap a tell or two, but we don't communicate much outside of that.  Perhaps we should do so more.

4)  I don't know why Bass started hating Aelie.  She and Victoria never really got along well until near the end of SK's playtime here - They were enemies longer than they were friends.  So far as I can remember, Bass more or less started harassing her because she was an (near?) epic and an easy target, which is what led to her always siding against him, first with Victoria then with Aesa.  She didn't start hating him until after he went after her and stayed after her for several weeks, often getting other people to join in to boot.  Even now, she's not directly antagonistic towards him so much as she just doesn't like him.  She's even fine with most of his friends.  As for Xen, I have a different understanding of it, but you're right that it's not something to be brought up here.  We'll talk about it later in private.

5)  I don't have any issues with a lot of your changes and I appreciate that you made them.  The questline you did to earn Tempus's favor was quite well-done, as I remember it.  Though it's a bit hard to complain about using only battleaxes when you got such a nice one...    I wasn't aware with any of your rebuilds or relevels (I don't follow that stuff) and most of the time I criticize him isn't due to his build (I know he's got flaws) but more due to the fact Bass is the most prominent ECL character people are likely to know and I have an issue with the way ECL races are handled on CD in general (I think they're too common and too easy to get).  And even then, I'm much, much more likely to pick on half-dragons.

6)  Stonehaven.  I remember you telling a few people they weren't welcome there, actually, usually people Bass had serious issues with (Aesa).  I'm still not sure if Aelie is allowed there or not, because I've been there once or twice but also heard a few times she wouldn't be welcome there (all IC).  The majority of the complaints I've seen about it were that it was becoming something of a clique, and often the only available RP at certain times of day was going on there, leaving the unwelcome (by fact or by thought) out in the cold.

[The Red Mage]

I'd like to say I'm willing to RP with anyone(except one person who doesn't play anymore). I typically go where the RP is on my characters. If I log on and the server is empty or I have to scour for a hour to find a small group of people, then 99% of the time I'll just log off and do something else.

I've been in Stonehaven recently because there's welcoming people there who are good at RPing their characters. My characters aren't always a perfect fit, but that's ok. In fact, I prefer it that way than making something tailored for a specific group. I like the conflict. I even like disagreeing with people in stonehaven about other people or situations. It's entertaining RP to me. And I go where the entertaining RP is. If I wanted to just chat with people I was chummy with, I wouldn't log in at all and just do it over Skype or something.

So feel free to approach any of my characters. I'm even willing to log onto another character, go topside, or even create a new character for you if you need! I'm all about the story telling. Three out of six of my characters on my main account are nothing more than plot tools for furthering other people's personal stories(Marz, W.M., Cataline). They have their history and desires, but they are things that can only come about not from a DM but from getting involved with other people.

It's been suggested that I'm treated differently by the Stonehaven group because I am a DM. I can assure that's not true. I butt heads with the DM staff far more than I do than with other players, because I am stubborn, and I care for the server. I may not always have the best ideas, but good luck convincing me I don't! Bass and I haven't always gotten along. In fact, I despised the player from the way Bass treated my main after I went on a break. I went a long time being bitter, but I really didn't know the player at all. I still don't, to be honest, but now that I only play for RP and stories, it doesn't matter if I know his a/s/l, or anything. I just need to know he and the players around me are willing to explore and expand stories and creative influence with me.

[sinisteromnibus]

Sept 26, 2014 14:03:12 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

1)  Since Aelie was one of the epics 'bullying' that bard...  No,  She wasn't bullying him.  She was making fun of his ultimate goal as she understood it because it was, in her eyes, a completely laughable one, like trying to get Tempus and Sune married by writing an awesome fanfic.  She was telling him it wasn't going to happen as he thought because, well, reality doesn't work that way.  The fact she misunderstood what his goal actually was wound up being important, and once she learned that she pretty much stopped bugging him because things made more sense.  This relates to my earlier point of dueling perceptions - I didn't see it as bullying but perhaps that player did, and if they did I didn't know about it.  As for the 'sniff test' I can't say I remember that one - I don't think I was there for it.  And boring characters?  Yeah, I know Aelie is boring for most people.  That's why you haven't seen her much - I don't know what to do with her so I'm trying to develop another, more interesting character.  Whether or not I'm succeeding is a whole different story.

Irony: assuming someone is talking about your character when they're not.

Bigger irony: assuming someone is talking about their character when they're not.

Biggest irony: assuming everything revolves around you and then wondering why you keep getting the feeling no one wants to deal with you.  

There was another server I played on briefly that had a rule: "Stories are built upon characters, not a character. Remember that you can play a role in someone else's story and both of you can have fun just as easily as they can be a part of yours."

I like that rule and have carried it with me every time I've joined a new server. Some people will simply never understand this concept that the world is bigger than them - in real life or in a game world. It's sad, but thus is life.

For my part: I refuse to deal with any character that cannot adhere at least in part to the rule I mentioned above. Why? Because the thought, effort, time, and even tears sometimes that I put into creating stories and personalities for my characters deserves far more respect than to see them treated as a piece of furniture simply occupying space upon the grand stage that some idiot has created for themselves to puff out their chest and flex their e-peen. A human being that lacks the capacity of thought it requires to understand empathy for others or consider differing perspectives without becoming offended is not someone I want to deal with - regardless of the potential rewards.

I wouldn't work for this person IRL.

I wouldn't drink with this person IRL.

I wouldn't talk to this person IRL.

I won't game with this person in the place I go to escape IRL.

You know why Aelie is boring to play and be around? It's really not even your fault, trylo. It's common sense. No story sustains itself and lasts forever. You've played out your ideas and concepts fully from what I've seen and now you're struggling to find something else to define her, but you can't. You won't until you learn how to look beyond your character and find the humility and dignity to be willing to consider the role that Aelie can play in someone else's story beyond her ability to be "an epic and powerful caster." You can't find Aelie's real personality on any deep level because I don't think it's there. If you've played her the way you have in the few interactions with my characters, you've never allowed that depth to develop because you've never allowed another character to really deeply impact her or change her from what your OOC goals are. It's sad, and I'm sorry you've let this happen to your beloved character, but there it is.

In any case, it seems to me as a newcomer like Piyale mentioned that CD has certain very insular communities within it, and when I first got here, yeah, I honestly felt just like furniture. My character's goals and ideals were automatically less just because my level didn't have 2 digits in it. Certain characters - characters who had wisdom scores in the high 20s or 30s - made absolutely no attempt to use that perception to divulge anything about mine. They simply made an assumption and rped off that - and to a one they alienated my character to the point that In-Character he decided that anyone who referred to themselves as some important local figure (either as a councilmember or epic adventurer or dragonslayer or high-ranking paladin) - had caught crazy somewhere along the way and he didn't want to deal with them. Then he found a druid who -did- try to perceive what was beneath the surface. I enjoyed those interactions a great deal with him, and even today I recall them fondly as I've moved on to other concepts.

The characters I have enjoyed the most on CD so far have been the ones that other characters have taken an interest in and the ones who I see as being poignant enough that others are drawn to them and their story and want to become a part of it. Nimuri was a character I had a great story for and had a killer build (by 20 she would have more ac than the shadow dragon if what I've been told is true). But I've abandoned her because as great as her story seemed to me...it became clear very quickly that no one else cared for it and I'll not have the interactions that drive characterization with her that I'd like. This isn't the fault of others. It's mine. I wasn't able to make her interesting enough for others to want to dig deeper and get involved.

This is how I characterize. The onus is on you to make your characters interesting, and when you do they will have those meaningful interactions that are more than just "square chatter". And in those interactions both your character and those around them will grow and change, finding new paths and new directions - and new ideas - you'd never even considered. Art mirrors life, after all, and roleplaying is storyweaving. It's an art.

I've had 3 characters here. Just 3. Of them I consider 2 failures because of my inability to make them interesting enough that people would dig into them. I could've still tried to force them as characters - ground dungeons and begged DMs for events and hitch-hiked on as many as I could - and likely eventually hit max level. But then what? No matter what the character does eventually it just becomes boasting if they tell everyone else how awesome they are. Think about it. How do you feel when someone just lists off their accomplishments and deeds? Do you like being talked at rather than talk to? Most people don't.

Voss is my first success here in my opinion. People - enemies and friends - have delved deeply into him, tried to understand him. They've tried to find weaknesses and test strengths, tried to figure out what makes him tick and what can tear him apart. The perceptive foe of his that has responded to his roleplay with a fullness of IC thought has everything they need to take him down. The ally that has questioned him and his motives, delved into his past and prodded for his future has everything they need to trust him and rely on him. I'm honored that people have had these interactions with him, and I try to give others the same feeling - the same interest that has been shown to him I pass on. I feel like Dom tries this as well, and as a result Bass gets the focus he does. There are just such a large number of characters that have been drawn into Bass's story that among the good apples there are bound to be a number of bad ones that can't separate the story from the writer. If Dom were really such an out-of-character problem these bad apples would ignore and avoid him in any and all ways. They wouldn't choose to recognize anything he does as relevant or respond to it OOCly or ICly.

But they don't. The cycle continues and they're drawn again and again into OOC conflict with the player because they're too blind to see that they've been ensnared in the story. It's easy to point fingers at OOC motivations, but at the end of the day the actions your character takes are entirely up to you. You accept the consequences both IC and OOC. As a player you can break the rules and deal with the punishment. As a character you can cut someone down in the square - not breaking any server rule - and your character can face the punishment. The irony in all this is that the people who get irked at Bass choose to keep interacting with him in some way, shape, or form - and this is an OOC decision that leads to their own OOC grief. If he somehow manages to take every character on the server to Stonehaven for rp because their players want them to engage in that rp that's likely another telling sign that this player - through this character - is attempting to engage the entire server in meaningful, character-driving rp.

[Edge]

Sept 26, 2014 16:30:45 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

The characters I have enjoyed the most on CD so far have been the ones that other characters have taken an interest in and the ones who I see as being poignant enough that others are drawn to them and their story and want to become a part of it.

Boy ain't that the truth. Kestal started out as my off-character, the one I played when the characters I normally played (at the time, just Cyrillia) didn't have any of their normal traveling companions online. Then she hooked up with the Blue Thorns and eventually became not only my main character for several years but possibly one of my favorite characters of all time.

[sinisteromnibus]

Anyone who quotes Neil Gaiman in their signature automatically has my respect sir, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only nutball that sees characters as parts of a story rather than extensions of myself.

[bknuckles]

To juxtapose some of the text walls, I'd like to add that IC conflict, antagonism, and general social debauchery can go a long way in enhancing the development of a character (and the characters they interact with). There's nothing inherently wrong in being a "bad guy". It just takes some measure of responsibility!

[aceheart]

The flipside of "joining" really hard (see: too hard) is that it makes your PC about as interesting as a paper hat. Insofar as anyone that wants to RP anything decision-based, or political or whatever may as well get it from the horse's mouth.

[trylobyte]

Sept 26, 2014 16:30:45 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

Irony: assuming someone is talking about your character when they're not.

Bigger irony: assuming someone is talking about their character when they're not.

Biggest irony: assuming everything revolves around you and then wondering why you keep getting the feeling no one wants to deal with you.  

*snip*

You know why Aelie is boring to play and be around? It's really not even your fault, trylo. It's common sense. No story sustains itself and lasts forever. You've played out your ideas and concepts fully from what I've seen and now you're struggling to find something else to define her, but you can't. You won't until you learn how to look beyond your character and find the humility and dignity to be willing to consider the role that Aelie can play in someone else's story beyond her ability to be "an epic and powerful caster." You can't find Aelie's real personality on any deep level because I don't think it's there. If you've played her the way you have in the few interactions with my characters, you've never allowed that depth to develop because you've never allowed another character to really deeply impact her or change her from what your OOC goals are. It's sad, and I'm sorry you've let this happen to your beloved character, but there it is.

Wow, that was rather stunningly rude.  What'd I do to offend you?

I could only think of one person who gave Tavaris more crap than Aelie did, so I assumed the other one had to be her.  My fault, I suppose.

As for Aelie and depth, I'll bite.  The problem isn't so much that the depth isn't there, it's that the people who found it, the people who explored it, the people who helped shape the character...  they're all gone.  The plots and schemes and entire fields that Aelie was involved in, they're dead and buried.  The DMs have left, the characters have retired, and nobody has any interest in them anymore.  The depth is there - The few long-timers out there who have seen it will note she isn't as simple as she seems - but there's no suitable outlet for it.  She is pretty shallow in general social interaction, but if that's all she has to do that's all that will ever be seen.  Focus has shifted away from her areas of expertise and she can't roleplay with herself.  Best to just sideline her until I see opportunities to get involved again and reinvent her in a meaningful way, yes?

[tenorgeneral]

As stressful as some of the old storylines were, I have to agree with Trylo, there are some PCs who may seem shallow and uninteresting to many players, especially newer players, because those characters poured their efforts into plots and relationships and stories which are at this point, just history.

I myself feel like Veir, my paladin, has very little in the way of means to get involved in things ever since the entirety of his original unit in the Purple Dragons has left the server, and there have been multiple reorganizations of the faction since, and also since the people who shaped his climb up to where he is are for the most part gone now too.

Jillian Goodbarrel, an old PC, was a decent influence on him, and shaped a lot of his early RP.  Tyrus, a mean green fighting machine, with a softer side; he and Veir had many conversations that were quiet and very divisive, but almost never hostile.  Even Victoria, crazy cleric of Torm, had an impact on Veir, and had a great deal to do with his story.  And who can forget the War Wizard that was basically his constant traveling companion.  And, to a man, they're all gone from CD now.

His biggest adversaries, they're also gone.  Lilly Trayl, in the beginning, was someone who was involved in some very organic RP with Veir, where they began as the most hostile enemies, and eventually became friends after a fashion.  An evil, man-eating werewolf, bane of many people's existence, had a big impact upon Veir's story too.

To many new players though, I'd bet Veir seems like the stereotypical old PC, with little in the way of depth, and little in the way of involvement in storylines.

My point, longwinded as it is, is that PCs, especially older PCs might not be involved with the newer storylines, and might not develop and change as much, because they've already developed and changed into the form they have settled into.  And that's okay, but it is a bit sad that the other PCs they put so much effort into building stories with are gone.

[dom101]

Sept 26, 2014 19:10:04 GMT -5 tenorgeneral said:

As stressful as some of the old storylines were, I have to agree with Trylo, there are some PCs who may seem shallow and uninteresting to many players, especially newer players, because those characters poured their efforts into plots and relationships and stories which are at this point, just history.

I myself feel like Veir, my paladin, has very little in the way of means to get involved in things ever since the entirety of his original unit in the Purple Dragons has left the server, and there have been multiple reorganizations of the faction since, and also since the people who shaped his climb up to where he is are for the most part gone now too.

Jillian Goodbarrel, an old PC, was a decent influence on him, and shaped a lot of his early RP.  Tyrus, a mean green fighting machine, with a softer side; he and Veir had many conversations that were quiet and very divisive, but almost never hostile.  Even Victoria, crazy cleric of Torm, had an impact on Veir, and had a great deal to do with his story.  And who can forget the War Wizard that was basically his constant traveling companion.  And, to a man, they're all gone from CD now.

His biggest adversaries, they're also gone.  Lilly Trayl, in the beginning, was someone who was involved in some very organic RP with Veir, where they began as the most hostile enemies, and eventually became friends after a fashion.  An evil, man-eating werewolf, bane of many people's existence, had a big impact upon Veir's story too.

To many new players though, I'd bet Veir seems like the stereotypical old PC, with little in the way of depth, and little in the way of involvement in storylines.

My point, longwinded as it is, is that PCs, especially older PCs might not be involved with the newer storylines, and might not develop and change as much, because they've already developed and changed into the form they have settled into.  And that's okay, but it is a bit sad that the other PCs they put so much effort into building stories with are gone.

My character is old; reiterated the group I rp with time and time again.  Yet I still do what I can to raise up newer players through RP and story-telling.  Why?  Because I don't want to be in the lime-light.  In fact I've never wanted that.  I just play to have fun.  And very often put emphasis on placing others on the center stage.  Just because your pc is old, doesn't mean they can't get involved with new stories.  You just need to put forth the effort.

[tenorgeneral]

That's not really the point I was making.  To each his own, it's just that people should understand that PCs may have had a lot of development and changes they never saw.  What seems statis when viewed through a lens of a short period of interactions may not be static when viewed as a part of the PC's lifespan.

[Fire Wraith]

I'm not going to take sides in any of this.

Part of the problem is simply that there are sides, to begin with.

Let's be clear about a few things.

-Nobody can tell you how to play your character.
-Nobody can kill off your character.

Nobody, that is, except the Admins, and we try to allow as much reasonable leeway on the first part, and do our best to avoid the latter.

So, as long as there's no actual serious harassment going on - and I mean serious, not just "Player X's character said mean things to me" - what's the problem that we don't address?

There's 24 people on right now as of Midnight EST.  Even for a Friday, that's better than we've had all summer. There's lots of people to play with, lots of stories to be had and made. This world is yours to shape - and there's tons of corners to make your own. Nobody has a monopoly on a concept, or faction, or anything. Find some likeminded people and build something.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 26, 2014 21:27:16 GMT -5 dom101 said:

My character is old; reiterated the group I rp with time and time again.  Yet I still do what I can to raise up newer players through RP and story-telling.  Why?  Because I don't want to be in the lime-light.  In fact I've never wanted that.  I just play to have fun.  And very often put emphasis on placing others on the center stage.  Just because your pc is old, doesn't mean they can't get involved with new stories.  You just need to put forth the effort.

This. This, I think, is the point being missed.

So all your characters' buddies are gone. Tell me...when you reach some great accomplishment in your life...when you find that pinnacle and you think, "There's no way things can get better than this," do you stop everything and just give up on ever doing more? Do you look at the people around you and decide, "Meh, I've done stuff with people before. They're gone. No reason to bother forming any meaningful ties with someone new"?

If you do, well, I feel an extraordinary amount of pity for you. If your character is at that point? You probably should retire them. But if you feel there's more story for them, you have to, if you'll pardon me for saying so, get off your ass and make it happen. You don't need DMs for this.

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 26, 2014 23:11:23 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

I'm not going to take sides in any of this.

Part of the problem is simply that there are sides, to begin with.

Let's be clear about a few things.

-Nobody can tell you how to play your character.
-Nobody can kill off your character.

Nobody, that is, except the Admins, and we try to allow as much reasonable leeway on the first part, and do our best to avoid the latter.

So, as long as there's no actual serious harassment going on - and I mean serious, not just "Player X's character said mean things to me" - what's the problem that we don't address?

There's 24 people on right now as of Midnight EST.  Even for a Friday, that's better than we've had all summer. There's lots of people to play with, lots of stories to be had and made. This world is yours to shape - and there's tons of corners to make your own. Nobody has a monopoly on a concept, or faction, or anything. Find some likeminded people and build something.

+1 to this, too, sir.

Effort and depth.  A lot of what I find interesting about a character is what isn't said and how that could play into an existing conversation.  I won't get into detail about my chars, far too much of it I want you to guess and ponder at, and if your wrong?  That's even better.

Effort and the drive to see.  What it is you see?  What stares back at you?

On the subject of antagonism.  My chars have had their fare share, and every so often, my chars get into arguments and win or lose, fight or get rolled, it's part of life.  Very rarely though have I had the inclination to be hostile.  Apologies if i ever have, hope there's time and space to heal, I'm not perfect and I don't expect anyone to be.  My two cents is this: If it seems to be, it isn't.  It's likely a whole other can of worms.