Poll - What is your opinion on exotic races?

[onivel]

Sept 30, 2014 15:54:08 GMT -5 The Nameless Bard said:

Sept 30, 2014 15:48:20 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

I've always wanted to play a Fey character, but I don't know how.

Goat made a handy guide just for you!

It is very handy. I wish I had it when I played Alluria. It is far more indepth than the info I had at the time. I am glad it is there now that I have her son Simkin. Even though he is only half fey, it is a great reference and I look to it often.

[Edge]

Yeah they can be pretty tricky.

A good way to get into their mindset is to read stories that star them. The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher - primarily Summer Knight, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, Small Favor, and Cold Days - stars several fey, both lowly and powerful, as major characters. And the October Daye series by Seanan McGuire is completely set in a fey-side view of modern North America from the perspective of a changeling woman.

[The Red Mage]

I've read all of those. I guess I just don't see a reason of playing Peppyr 2.0! I'm not sure what variables I could add to make it my own.

[onivel]

Sept 30, 2014 17:17:12 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

I've read all of those. I guess I just don't see a reason of playing Peppyr 2.0! I'm not sure what variables I could add to make it my own.

Doesn't need to be Peppyr 2.0 .. I'm sure their are innumerable was to make one your own. I know of 3 pixie PCs who have played on this server including my own, and not a one of them was alike.

Then you have Peppyr and Edge's fey as well. Each are quite distinct. The source is just inspiration and lore to help you find a quirk or niche to make one your own.

[SOC_Tessa]

Sept 30, 2014 11:48:21 GMT -5 Edge said:

What makes it snarky is that it's a smart-alecky "I'm so clever" type comment with little more purpose than to irk tempers.

Yes, let's try to keep things civil and constructive here if we can. I'm including the earlier cracks about imbalanced populations of females or elves or clothing styles. The topic may be closed to discussion and dismissed in some minds, but remember that not all opinions are alike. A quick look at the current poll standings shows opinion bleeds straight down the middle on this subject, so it obviously isn't a topic we can definitively say should be one way or the other.

One camp does seem clearly in the mindset that the stock races are overplayed, bland and boring to them. That isn't the case for everyone, but it is a good opinion to be aware of. I personally haven't played out those races to boredom and while some can tap into behaviors and cultures and find those catapult them into interesting places, I find that it's at the heart of personality and motivations that drive me. It also helps tons that I can more easily relate to something more human than monstrous (the same familiarity that leans me more often to good or neutral alignments versus evil). It does occasionally feel like "alien overload" at times though, where you can sometimes be surrounded by a half dozen special races - that's probably the point where it goes to far, when I start picturing the Cantina scene in Star Wars rather than a familiar fantasy scene. When the "special races" start to feel too common, it actually inverts the issue to where some might find the ECL races overplayed and a dime a dozen, much like your own opinion of the tolkienesque races.

And that's really the big takeaway here, if anything. Everyone has their own tastes and perception of things.

Sidenote - Is there a mechanical breakdown of the difference between XP distribution for ECL versus non-ECL? Is it just a flat reduction based on the +adjustment, or something more elaborate?

[Deleted]

Sept 30, 2014 18:00:59 GMT -5 SOC_Tessa said:

Sidenote - Is there a mechanical breakdown of the difference between XP distribution for ECL versus non-ECL? Is it just a flat reduction based on the +adjustment, or something more elaborate?

The formula is, essentially, as follows:

[NonECL XP] * ([XP required for next non-ECL level] / [XP required for next ECL level])

In other terms, the XP is reduced by a percentage equivalent to the difference between the amount of XP required to level a non-ECL character versus the ECL character.  This percentage differs depending on the ECL.  For example, a tiefling has a greater percentage of XP (being only ECL +1) than a half-demon (being ECL +4).

...Is it sad that this question just brightened my mood?

[Arya]

My comment was more a satirical comment, a mockery of all the comments that are whining about anything in this thread, or snide remarks veiled as something clever or 'funny' (when they are not). If anyone took them as me wanting to trim anything down, or pick on the race/gender groups mentioned, that was not the intention.

But I honestly am tired of the attitudes for another reason: a lot of people have been dealing with them in-game as OOC dislikes disguised/agendas played through characters ICly.  If anyone wants to have an agenda in-game, can it not be something positive, like starting a faction or group for something, versus antagonizing things that people OOCly dislike?  

It is something that has been tying into the general issues in another thread that has recently been derailed.

~Arya

[Edge]

when I start picturing the Cantina scene in Star Wars rather than a familiar fantasy scene

See, this is where we divide. I don't see why "Cantina" is used as a detrimental commentary on that style of play/worldbuilding. I personally LIKE that style. As I said, anything less doesn't really feel like fantasy to me. It feels too "normal" or "mundane", rather than the fantastical otherworldliness that I generally associate with the fantasy genre.

It also probably has a heavy bearing on what one's introduction to fantasy was. If you're introduced via Tolkien or something like him, then yeah I can see why you'd be drawn to the Standard Seven. My introduction to fantasy was Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI. I think that's one of the reasons that I'm more accepting of weirdness - racial and mechanical - in fantasy and why games and settings without it seem bland to me. To quote someone from the Paizo forums, "Robotz and Lazorz" in my fantasy doesn't bother me (much the opposite actually), and neither does a vast, varied, alien array of bizarre creatures as your standard cast, instead of a handful of "normal", mostly-human-looking people set in a world that is otherwise only populated by monsters to be killed.

[Nevermore]

Sept 29, 2014 12:29:03 GMT -5 SOC_Tessa said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be a rant thread or an open argument. I'm merely curious as to the populous' view on exotic races. There have been past snide remarks, full on threads, even occasional attacks on the matter. The subject is probably at least as controversial as the other dead horses on the server, so please keep things civil and constructive. This is not a covert attempt to alter anything - the administration has made it clear that the current compromise is what has been established and more than likely will not change anytime soon, if ever.

Fire Wraith said:

Also, to be clear - having opinions on what you feel should or shouldn't be appropriate in the setting is fine, everyone has them. Just remember, they all differ, and what we've established is an attempt at compromise. It's also something, though, that we'd prefer to not have to constantly rehash.

 First.. I point to the disclaimer. That pretty much says to me.. Hey..letss have a nerdy conversaions about ECL. I never comment on these as I care far more about what dress my girls have on then game mechanics. I am sure I have some that couldn't hit the proverbial potato farmer.  I had one ECL, a drow, and I don't play her as I couldn't get a hold on her character.  

Second.. My personal opionion is that they are a nice concept.. but I know that in my head I think.. if that person who is like a +4 comes with we can do this dungeon instead of this lower one. I know that at times I have thought.. Wow.. +5 to strength.. *sighs* So.. they are a great concept, absolutly awesome if you can play them right, but the uncommon is very common here. Do I really care, no not really. I have more issue with people wearing white after Laborday. 

Third..Why I am actually posting is that this has turned into something that this shouldn't have. That general attitude that is going on and/or snarkyness. This had become a great example of the current state of attitude. 

We are adults. Have I had problems.. oh yes I have, and have I been an ass about it? Again a big yes. And for all of my woes I am sorry about my behavior, but from that I leaned to go take a breather, have a cookie, and come back when your not suffering a case of chapped ass. 

I do not care if you are for or against, or  like me with a nice Switzerland, lets just get along. And that was my two cents. 

[SOC_Tessa]

Sept 30, 2014 18:49:29 GMT -5 Edge said:

when I start picturing the Cantina scene in Star Wars rather than a familiar fantasy scene

See, this is where we divide. I don't see why "Cantina" is used as a detrimental commentary on that style of play/worldbuilding. I personally LIKE that style. As I said, anything less doesn't really feel like fantasy to me. It feels too "normal" or "mundane", rather than the fantastical otherworldliness that I generally associate with the fantasy genre.

*snipped for quote length*

The above is the exact sort of thing I wanted to see in this discussion from the start. I now have a much clearer perception of Edge's view and it came without snark, personal attacks or argument.

And yes, that's completely where we divide. My gateway to fantasy was very "tolkien", jumping from the Warhammer-themed HeroQuest boardgame (at age 8 or 9 - dating myself here for the curious) right into the 1st edition AD&D books, where there weren't yet any campaign settings and everything was very tolkien and legend/mythological-based. I can completely understand where you are coming from, having experienced the sources of your fantasy introduction (but I'm also one of those weirdos who prefers Chrono Cross to Chrono Trigger XD).

-

I plugged Bella's formula into a spreadsheet comparing XP values for both non-ecl and ecl. For the curious:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vwmeJKaRfDSIlHSwd9zT2RQelqHWt4OU6TXiXzMtWEg

Here are the takeaways:
-The total XP to cap out is the same for ECL+0 and ECL+1. In fact, for ECLs higher than +1, it actually takes *less* total xp (this is because they all start at level 2 regardless of ECL, effectively getting "free levels").
-The harsher XP penalties are in the early levels and relax the higher in level one gets. Since the biggest tax occurs in the window where one can still earn XP from random monster kills, it isn't as heavy handed.

[bknuckles]

Sept 30, 2014 18:49:29 GMT -5 Edge said:

when I start picturing the Cantina scene in Star Wars rather than a familiar fantasy scene

See, this is where we divide. I don't see why "Cantina" is used as a detrimental commentary on that style of play/worldbuilding. I personally LIKE that style. As I said, anything less doesn't really feel like fantasy to me. It feels too "normal" or "mundane", rather than the fantastical otherworldliness that I generally associate with the fantasy genre.

It also probably has a heavy bearing on what one's introduction to fantasy was. If you're introduced via Tolkien or something like him, then yeah I can see why you'd be drawn to the Standard Seven. My introduction to fantasy was Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI. I think that's one of the reasons that I'm more accepting of weirdness - racial and mechanical - in fantasy and why games and settings without it seem bland to me. To quote someone from the Paizo forums, "Robotz and Lazorz" in my fantasy doesn't bother me (much the opposite actually), and neither does a vast, varied, alien array of bizarre creatures as your standard cast, instead of a handful of "normal", mostly-human-looking people set in a world that is otherwise only populated by monsters to be killed.

You're fine in enjoying the Fantasy you want to enjoy. Everyone has their preference; but preference doesn't always make a stable setting - especially in a game as old as NWN, with a small enough community that everyone's so set in their ways.

The implicit point in the poll, as far as I understood it, was to gauge peoples' perspectives on ECL in relation to the setting that we're playing in. You can like lasers and robots, but why would I want to see that in Faerun? In Cormyr, of all places?

I'm not arguing for or against any kind of preference, insulting anyone's disposition, or critiquing the players. Definitely not critiquing the server, for that matter - it is what it is, and by this point? We all play here with some semblance of understanding how it's run. What we should call into question is how to best maintain the integrity of the server, which some posts have touched on, and how best to enhance the setting. If that's more ECL? Great. Less? We should be open to that, too. Should there be a big banner with bold letters saying that this server is loosely inspired by Faerun/FR, but has since diverged into its own realm of craziness? Maybe!

Moral: As long as there's consistency, transparency, and civility... it'll all be fine. Whatever the preference

EDIT: For the record, I voted "I have no issue with the current implementation, but IC attitudes are too lenient"

[Edge]

My personal opinion is that the server as-is is fine, and players should - within a certain level of reason, which the Admins determine - be allowed to play mostly whatever they like. Might it not be as far-out as some of the things I'd enjoy, like dropping in a bit of Paizo's Numeria? No, because Faerun's pretty clearly set to not have any technology above the very basic gunpowder level. The mention of high-tech sci-fantasy was more for context regarding my personal opinions and experience with the genre than a suggestion or request for the server - I know better than to ask for certain things.

But I don't think setting a heavy limiter on races back toward Middle-Earth expy is appropriate either, as Faerun is a higher-magic and more varied world than Tolkien.

I don't believe the current volume of exotic creatures - all of which have been stated or reasonably inferred to exist in the setting - is anywhere near breaching the sanctity of the setting, especially since we've diverged so much from Faerun as-written, and because of my earlier commentary regarding player actions and perceptions with regard to exotic races.

EDIT: For the record, I voted "I have no issue with the current implementation, but IC attitudes are too lenient"

Since so much of the "too lenient" attitude toward exotic races is a direct result of characters - a great many of them NOT exotic races in themselves - treating their exotic cousins with a non-hostile attitude, I'm loathe to enforce a change in that perception and reaction otherwise. The only real way to change that IC action is to have people create a swathe of new PCs that enforce that sort of behavior and/or convince other, older characters to act likewise. Even then, with the addition of Stonehaven - built by an exotic PC, home to many other exotic PCs who walk openly because the city's founding laws protect them doing so - I don't think any large-scale attempts to enforce anti-exotic-PC hostility will carry much weight except with brand-new, lower-level characters who can't reach Stonehaven (since the carriages don't go there).

Otherwise, as FW said, just because most PCs are pretty accepting of the weirder PCs doesn't mean most NPCs are, especially in the core parts of the setting - Arabel and Suzail, the elven parts of the forest, and a few other cities/locations. That's the task of the DMs to maintain that portion of the setting, where applicable. For PC to PC interaction, it's really a matter of personal (IC) tastes and beliefs.

[Deleted]

Sept 30, 2014 19:27:09 GMT -5 SOC_Tessa said:

Sept 30, 2014 18:49:29 GMT -5 Edge said:

See, this is where we divide. I don't see why "Cantina" is used as a detrimental commentary on that style of play/worldbuilding. I personally LIKE that style. As I said, anything less doesn't really feel like fantasy to me. It feels too "normal" or "mundane", rather than the fantastical otherworldliness that I generally associate with the fantasy genre.

*snipped for quote length*

The above is the exact sort of thing I wanted to see in this discussion from the start. I now have a much clearer perception of Edge's view and it came without snark, personal attacks or argument.

And yes, that's completely where we divide. My gateway to fantasy was very "tolkien", jumping from the Warhammer-themed HeroQuest boardgame (at age 8 or 9 - dating myself here for the curious) right into the 1st edition AD&D books, where there weren't yet any campaign settings and everything was very tolkien and legend/mythological-based. I can completely understand where you are coming from, having experienced the sources of your fantasy introduction (but I'm also one of those weirdos who prefers Chrono Cross to Chrono Trigger XD).

-

I plugged Bella's formula into a spreadsheet comparing XP values for both non-ecl and ecl. For the curious:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vwmeJKaRfDSIlHSwd9zT2RQelqHWt4OU6TXiXzMtWEg

Here are the takeaways:
-The total XP to cap out is the same for ECL+0 and ECL+1. In fact, for ECLs higher than +1, it actually takes *less* total xp (this is because they all start at level 2 regardless of ECL, effectively getting "free levels").
-The harsher XP penalties are in the early levels and relax the higher in level one gets. Since the biggest tax occurs in the window where one can still earn XP from random monster kills, it isn't as heavy handed.

You have something off.The XP percentage is recalculated each level.  For example, for an ECL +1 character, they begin with 1000 flat XP.  Each XP amount (farmed or DM given) is then adjusted as:  [amount] * (2000/3000) for levelling from 2-3.  They need 2000 XP normally, but to reach level 4 xp wise is 3000 xp.  I think.  I don't know for sure, as this is Vincent's area of expertise.

[Fire Wraith]

Bella is correct, their XP is modified by the following formula: XP * Level/Level+ECL = Actual XP.  This compresses the amount of xp you should need, into the amount of XP that NWN thinks you need. For example, as an ECL 2 to go from 2nd level to 3rd, NWN thinks you need to earn 2000 xp (going from 1000 to 3000). However, you're really level 4, and should need to earn 4000xp (going from 6000 to 10000). Thus, it multiplies everything you earn by (2/4) or .5.

The only time it doesn't work is level 1, but we had specific code in for that. CD originally started everyone with 3000xp, modified  such that an ECL +4 would start at level 1 with 188xp, because they need 16,000xp to reach level 2+4=6, and all their xp gains were multiplied by 1/16th.

This also meant that, as you were considered level 5 by the engine, you'd get roughly 1xp per monster you killed. People complained endlessly about it, and it was eventually changed. You'd probably also get 1xp or less per tick (that system wasn't around back then).

[Fire Wraith]

I should also note that people should be careful if they decide to create intolerant characters. It's fine for your character to dislike, and actively avoid/exclude strange races, if you're consistent about it.

...That said, we don't want anyone trying to be the RP police, who PVP/harass and generally try to actively exile anyone from Arabel, or the like (or worse, hunt them down outside) just because they're a freak.

I should also note that my personal view on things is that the setting does not conform to what I'd planned, and that I'd prefer people act a little more carefully when they're a weird race. I play one, but it's one that's constantly concealed save to a few specific individuals on particular occasions, even as it drives her roleplay both past and present.

I'm also the one who wouldn't put eastern weapons in the stores, because this is the Heartlands, not Kara-Tur. *sticks tongue out at Edge*