Poll - What is your opinion on exotic races?

[Edge]

Oct 2, 2014 8:06:02 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

Please no lowbie dungeons. If your character manages to get into a run at the bandits or even Ogre Lord's out the gate with another group, you can pretty much just jump right to level 5-6.

I can't speak for others but I personally don't approve of this sort of insta-leveling. Feels too much like cheating to me. If you can't meaningfully contribute to participating in the dungeon (due to level, not due to other factors - if you're an enchanter in a dungeon full of undead, for example), you shouldn't be there, you should be in some place that's made for your level.

There's obviously some give here, I mean I'm not gonna see an issue if someone's taking a level-10/12 or so character through Ogre Lords because if nothing else they can at least provide buffs or healing while hiding invisible at the back of the group. But a fresh newbie character just out of the creation cage? No, there's not going to be jack that a character like that can contribute to a run like that at that level.

Though I suppose that could explain the lack of complaining about the monotony of low-level dungeons, if everyone's just hyper-bypassing them as quickly as possible by riding the coattails of a high-level party through a dungeon that would otherwise eat them alive.

So am I the odd man out in this? Is this common practice here and only those newbies who don't yet have friends to haul them through higher-level dungeons and me and anyone else who disapproves of this practice are the only ones still running the rats and ants and ghost house at low levels? I'm not so naive as to have never thought it happens - I've been part of far too many DM/admin conversations on the subject - but I never thought it was exactly common, much less accepted; it always seemed one of those things that if people did it, they didn't talk about it, lest they bring attention to themselves for it.

[dom101]

Oct 2, 2014 8:47:26 GMT -5 Edge said:

So am I the odd man out in this? Is this common practice here and only those newbies who don't yet have friends to haul them through higher-level dungeons and me and anyone else who disapproves of this practice are the only ones still running the rats and ants and ghost house at low levels? I'm not so naive as to have never thought it happens - I've been part of far too many DM/admin conversations on the subject - but I never thought it was exactly common, much less accepted; it always seemed one of those things that if people did it, they didn't talk about it, lest they bring attention to themselves for it.

I don't know whether or not it's common practice, but ... I generally wont tell a lower level character I'm Roleplaying with and decide to go kill things, they can't go because they're too inexperienced.  It does depend on the particular character, but almost always I'll invite people.  I don't let mechanics or levels determine my party.  For instance, just did Frost Giants with three there were > 15.  The roleplay is what matters to me.

[Edge]

I'm fully willing to admit I've been out of the loop for a couple years now, so I wouldn't be surprised if the general opinion toward this sort of thing has changed. As far as I remember, before my latest sabbatical, I don't know if it was outright banned but it was generally frowned upon, at least by the staff: I recall numerous discussions among the DMs and admins that essentially all began "So-and-so is power-leveling their buddies by running them through [insert higher-level dungeon here]!!!" Like I said, that mindset and opposition may have changed.

[lb7]

Oct 2, 2014 8:47:26 GMT -5 Edge said:

So am I the odd man out in this? Is this common practice here and only those newbies who don't yet have friends to haul them through higher-level dungeons and me and anyone else who disapproves of this practice are the only ones still running the rats and ants and ghost house at low levels? I'm not so naive as to have never thought it happens - I've been part of far too many DM/admin conversations on the subject - but I never thought it was exactly common, much less accepted; it always seemed one of those things that if people did it, they didn't talk about it, lest they bring attention to themselves for it.

It's extremely common place. There are a couple of factors beyond the whole monotonous nature of killing rats and goblins all day. Beyond what Dom above has already said about roleplay and not worrying too much about levels, there is also an extremely poor ratio of low levels-to-mid levels, and you're never going to see that ratio change unless you either get a flux or new people, or a group of old veterans suddenly decide on new alts. Right now as I type this post, there are seven people logged onto CD. Of all of them that could fit in the "lower level range" (1-9), how many are there? None. The lowest level on at the time of this post is a level 10. You're not going to see a group of mid level characters run a couple of low level dungeons just because you have one party member who is level 5, 6, maybe even 7, and yet you don't really want to exclude that person either because you'd feel bad, feel like a jerk, whatever the reasoning might be.

But anyways this is derailing the point of the thread.

[Valimar Dragonbane]

Oct 2, 2014 8:47:26 GMT -5 Edge said:

Oct 2, 2014 8:06:02 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

Please no lowbie dungeons. If your character manages to get into a run at the bandits or even Ogre Lord's out the gate with another group, you can pretty much just jump right to level 5-6.

I can't speak for others but I personally don't approve of this sort of insta-leveling. Feels too much like cheating to me. If you can't meaningfully contribute to participating in the dungeon (due to level, not due to other factors - if you're an enchanter in a dungeon full of undead, for example), you shouldn't be there, you should be in some place that's made for your level.

There's obviously some give here, I mean I'm not gonna see an issue if someone's taking a level-10/12 or so character through Ogre Lords because if nothing else they can at least provide buffs or healing while hiding invisible at the back of the group. But a fresh newbie character just out of the creation cage? No, there's not going to be jack that a character like that can contribute to a run like that at that level.

Though I suppose that could explain the lack of complaining about the monotony of low-level dungeons, if everyone's just hyper-bypassing them as quickly as possible by riding the coattails of a high-level party through a dungeon that would otherwise eat them alive.

So am I the odd man out in this? Is this common practice here and only those newbies who don't yet have friends to haul them through higher-level dungeons and me and anyone else who disapproves of this practice are the only ones still running the rats and ants and ghost house at low levels? I'm not so naive as to have never thought it happens - I've been part of far too many DM/admin conversations on the subject - but I never thought it was exactly common, much less accepted; it always seemed one of those things that if people did it, they didn't talk about it, lest they bring attention to themselves for it.

From what I understand (and have seen), if the level disparity is too much, the lower level character won't gain xp (aside from the fairy ticks) from the dungeon run.  Money, sure... but money can only go so far when you're a lowbie.

[Edge]

Oct 2, 2014 9:37:32 GMT -5 lb7 said:

Oct 2, 2014 8:47:26 GMT -5 Edge said:

So am I the odd man out in this? Is this common practice here and only those newbies who don't yet have friends to haul them through higher-level dungeons and me and anyone else who disapproves of this practice are the only ones still running the rats and ants and ghost house at low levels? I'm not so naive as to have never thought it happens - I've been part of far too many DM/admin conversations on the subject - but I never thought it was exactly common, much less accepted; it always seemed one of those things that if people did it, they didn't talk about it, lest they bring attention to themselves for it.

It's extremely common place. There are a couple of factors beyond the whole monotonous nature of killing rats and goblins all day. Beyond what Dom above has already said about roleplay and not worrying too much about levels, there is also an extremely poor ratio of low levels-to-mid levels, and you're never going to see that ratio change unless you either get a flux or new people, or a group of old veterans suddenly decide on new alts. Right now as I type this post, there are seven people logged onto CD. Of all of them that could fit in the "lower level range" (1-9), how many are there? None. The lowest level on at the time of this post is a level 10. You're not going to see a group of mid level characters run a couple of low level dungeons just because you have one party member who is level 5, 6, maybe even 7, and yet you don't really want to exclude that person either because you'd feel bad, feel like a jerk, whatever the reasoning might be.

But anyways this is derailing the point of the thread.

Hmm. Yeah, that's a point I hadn't considered. Fair enough. Thanks for the fill-in, like I said I'm a bit out of the loop on how the community's developed the past year or two.

[SOC_Tessa]

On the tangent of dungeon runs, I've played "take what I can get" when it came to any of my characters. When I first started out (about two years ago now...I think?) I had a lot of IC direction to various low level dungeons and did a few small outings either solo or with players.

Something like a year past that, it seems other characters were given more lenience. We're not even talking about some lowbie being blitzed through Wyvernspur or Ogres - a single tromp through the Bolthole or one go at the Witch Keep with a mid/high level character or two was enough to boost 3-4 levels at a time.

The issue (as was pointed out above) is that levels are always in flux at the mercy of the playerbase, and aside from new influx, those numbers get ever higher. Sure, it feels bad when one is "carried", but when it's a choice between jumping in with the only available run and doing a soulless rpless solo run of appropriate level, the choice is clear. Higher levels are going to do what interests them, and they're not going to always feel like guiding a lower character through something more geared toward them. The times that has happened has been rare, butappreciative - I can vividly recall Marziima "babysitting" lowbies through a rp-screen of wanting to observe, letting loose a few buffs and then just trailing along invisible (how boring must have that been?)

I think there are a good selection of low-level dungeons that when the stars do align and a like-minded group of appropriate level wants to go through them, they can.

[Edge]

Makes sense. Admittedly my opinion/experience on the subject is hampered by most of my playing being during higher-volume years, so I'm not really fully adjusted to the lower-population playerbase of the current, and the necessities and alterations of expectation that would come with it - such as this.

[The Red Mage]

Oct 2, 2014 10:23:14 GMT -5 SOC_Tessa said:

I can vividly recall Marziima "babysitting" lowbies through a rp-screen of wanting to observe, letting loose a few buffs and then just trailing along invisible (how boring must have that been?)

Aw, that's was fun for me. Taking lowbies to a place maybe they couldn't handle on purpose so that he could "sell" them wards so they could overcome it! It was fun RW play and potential hiring play for me.

[SOC_Tessa]

Well good, because it left a positive impact.

[Fire Wraith]

Oct 2, 2014 6:45:49 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

So, just to clarify further, is there an explanation as to why ECLs still hit the soft cap at level 8 instead of X+ECL= 8? Sure, they get to 8 fairly slowly, but surprise, +4 is actually level 12 when they have to start earning RP XP.

Vincent tells me this isn't the case. I'm not allowed to mess with the scripts since I tend to break stuff he has to fix, and well, if you'll pardon me I need to relocate, the murdergolems have locked onto my current location.

[Fire Wraith]

As regards the bit about grouping and leveling with level disparity, I'm of mixed minds about it.

On one hand, we want to encourage group involvement, roleplaying, and character development. I find this happens more in groups than by people forced to solo, and if it's a matter of "You can't come with us, we're going to a non-lowbie dungeon, go farm rats by yourself", I'd much rather have the lowbie go along. This is often the case, because there aren't always enough players of lower level for lots of purely lowbie groups to form.

That said, it's not the intent to just have someone powerleveled with no interaction or involvement at all. I've never wanted people to fixate on the levels, because if anything they're a distraction from the real focus, which is characters and stories. I feel very strongly that trying to boost your levels without any sort of concomitant character development is cheating yourself (and those around you to a degree) of the full experience and enjoyment of the game.

The level limit rules are there to try and balance these two imperatives. They're not exact, and function more as an averaging device. For instance, grouping a level 20 and a level 3 means no xp, but if it's one level 20 and five level 3s, that may be a different story. Basically we're aiming more for the scenario where one player is the odd person out, and we don't want them being left behind solely for that reason, while at the same time trying to discourage the "I have a high level character, let me powerlevel my one OOC friend" - in order to do that, you have to take others along, and make it a social thing.

It's not perfect, but nothing ever is 100%.

[Edge]

Oct 2, 2014 23:44:48 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

Oct 2, 2014 6:45:49 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

So, just to clarify further, is there an explanation as to why ECLs still hit the soft cap at level 8 instead of X+ECL= 8? Sure, they get to 8 fairly slowly, but surprise, +4 is actually level 12 when they have to start earning RP XP.

Vincent tells me this isn't the case. I'm not allowed to mess with the scripts since I tend to break stuff he has to fix, and well, if you'll pardon me I need to relocate, the murdergolems have locked onto my current location.

Did we get the upgraded versions yet or are we still running Murdergolem 2008 Edition?

[trylobyte]

Oct 2, 2014 23:55:03 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

I've never wanted people to fixate on the levels, because if anything they're a distraction from the real focus, which is characters and stories. I feel very strongly that trying to boost your levels without any sort of concomitant character development is cheating yourself (and those around you to a degree) of the full experience and enjoyment of the game.

So why do I need to be level 12 before my aasimar has a chance to get wings (back) when they can get them by level 3 in the core books?  I'm kinda required to focus on level, in this case.  

[Edge]

Oct 3, 2014 15:25:34 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

Oct 2, 2014 23:55:03 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

I've never wanted people to fixate on the levels, because if anything they're a distraction from the real focus, which is characters and stories. I feel very strongly that trying to boost your levels without any sort of concomitant character development is cheating yourself (and those around you to a degree) of the full experience and enjoyment of the game.

So why do I need to be level 12 before my aasimar has a chance to get wings (back) when they can get them by level 3 in the core books?  I'm kinda required to focus on level, in this case. 

I remember when we did the change, though I can't recall the reason. I was never immensely fond of the change myself, but it's me so that's not surprising =)