Divine Shield

[Deleted]

An idea to discuss the Cormyr Dalelands custom changes to NWN Divine Shield to consider a possible fairness balance.

Table: Current AC bonus a Paladin, Cleric, or Blackguard would receive on taking Divine Shield with the equipment in the header row.

CHA Score	+6 Shield (Epic)	+5 Shield	+4 Shield	+3 Shield	+2 Shield	+1 Shield	Two-hander or None (Sorcerer, Thuerge, Bard)
20	0	0	1	2	3	4	5
22	0	1	2	3	4	5	6
24	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
26	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
28	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
30 (18 base)	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
32 (20 base)	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
34 (22 base)	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
36 (24 base)	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
38 (26 base)	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
40 (28 base)	4	5	6	7	8	9	10

Points to consider:
- Current set-up favors two-handed weapons and double-dipping CHA class types (Bard/Cleric, Sorcerer/Blackguard, Theurge with 16-18 CHA) *Default NWN feat had to be balanced to stop these classes running around with ~+15 Dodge AC, understandably!
- Clerics and Blackguards don't currently have any multi-class restrictions against taking three levels to grab Divine Shield for the full AC bonus
- Cleric and Theurge can triple dip into Divine Shield (~+5-10 AC), Epic Mage Armor (+10 AC), and Magic Vestment (Any Armor & Shield brought up to +5 AC enhancement)
- Sorcerer / Blackguard with light class-level investment can achieve Divine Shield (~+5-10 AC), Epic Mage Armor (+15 AC in this case)
- Only 18 CHA is required for max AC bonus, making it possible to any of these above classes, especially subraces

Canon feat from 3.5 Defenders of Faith:

Divine Shield [Divine]
You can channel energy to make your shield more
effective for either offense or defense.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn or rebuke undead,
Cha 13+, Str 13+, Power Attack, Improved Shield Bash.
Benefit: Spend one of your turn/rebuke undead
attempts to channel energy into your shield, granting
it an enhancement bonus equal to your Charisma
modifier. This enhancement bonus applies both to the
shield's attacks and defense, and lasts for a number of
rounds equal to your Charisma modifier.

Thoughts/Brainstorming from thread responses:

- Cap AC bonus on the Class that Turns Undead (Cleric Class Levels, Paladin Class Levels, Blackguard Class Levels) and raise the cap -- investment=reward
- Balance the "AC Gap" with special Shield Items usable by Epic Paladin but not Cleric
- Remove the cap / Send back to Dodge AC -- this would lead to many people taking rogue for the Uncanny Dodge I, and wouldn't solve 3-Class-Level imbalance
- Canon feat: Divine Shield applies to the Shield but caps at +20 -- not fair to those who planned build with a two-hander


The feat Divine Shield in its original form helps balance Paladins with other high AC Epic Mage Armor characters as a defensive hybrid in epic levels -- other servers often employ OOC multi-class restrictions to balance the above stated double and triple dipping. To achieve the potential AC bonus the paladin class carves up stats between STR, CHA, WIS, CON, and INT, foregoing skills points, damage, and Dev Crit. Paladins do not have the offensive capability or skills/feats of Weaponmasters, Sorcerers/Wizards, EK's, Clerics, Theurges, Rogues/Assassins, RDD's. Could use an adjustment to bring the paladin class type into a competitive range for Boss Fighting quests, etc, when the character peer group includes a majority of the previous superbuilds.


The goal is not to make paladin powerful -- it won't be, and I don't think people play the class for this reason. It's to add some survivability so the Base Class Type can enjoy going on quests with superbuilds, etc, without dying frequently to monsters who have been balanced against Full BAB casting builds and scroll weaponmasters.

[Deleted]

I'm making some assumptions here because I don't know what the loot tables are like, so if loot has been altered to balance the above, then the above points could be flawed!

[Edge]

The main flaw in your argument is that you're counting the base value of the shield itself - minus its enhancement bonus - against the Divine Shield bonus. It's only the shield's enhancement that conflicts with Divine Shield. So as long as your Charisma is over 21, you're still getting at least a +1 bonus out of Divine Shield, which stacks as a further enhancement on the base nonmagical value of the shield itself (+1 for buckler, +2 for large, +3 for tower).

[Deleted]

Thanks Edge. I didn't know this. If that's the case, then the bonus will continue to be about +5, which is at least worth spending a full round action to receive.

[goodapollo]

It also lets you run a shield with, idk, stats on it or something instead of a shield bonus while divine shield is running.

[Edge]

And of course if you're a two-handed weapon wielder, it's especially useful.

[Vincent07]

The other reason for the cap, is there are a few bards and sorcerers out there with access to Divine Shield through Blackguard levels that would otherwise be gaining 10-15 AC due to extremely high CHA scores.  (It is possible to break 40 CHA with certain sub-races and build setups.)

[Deleted]

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for the response.

[trylobyte]

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but...

Mar 12, 2016 19:18:07 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

The other reason for the cap, is there are a few bards and sorcerers out there with access to Divine Shield through Blackguard levels that would otherwise be gaining 10-15 AC due to extremely high CHA scores.  (It is possible to break 40 CHA with certain sub-races and build setups.)

On another server I play we have Epic Divine Might and Epic Divine Shield as epic feats that 'only' raise the bonus cap to 20 (and require you to also have Divine Might/Shield respectively).  This has the side effect of making every Charisma-benefitting melee class hilariously broken, with Charisma-based half-dragon paladins (or antipaladins) being far and away the most powerful things around at higher levels of play (barring certain extremely exotic PrC-enabled powerbuilds like drow warblade/duelist) because they gain such massive bonuses it's not even funny.  We're talking greatsword users with Devastating Critical that still have a 65+ AC.  It's pretty bonkers.  Keeping it restricted as-is is definitely a good call.

[TheGuyThatPlaysAsJames]

Mar 12, 2016 17:03:41 GMT -5 Edge said:

And of course if you're a two-handed weapon wielder, it's especially useful.

For real, though. To me, it felt like the server change to the spell went from making Cha-based shield users really lopsided in their defense (like it does in base NWN), to making it a really viable tool for two-handers. Lots of love there.

[whangdoodle]

Mar 21, 2016 15:13:17 GMT -5 TheGuyThatPlaysAsJames said:

Mar 12, 2016 17:03:41 GMT -5 Edge said:

And of course if you're a two-handed weapon wielder, it's especially useful.

For real, though. To me, it felt like the server change to the spell went from making Cha-based shield users really lopsided in their defense (like it does in base NWN), to making it a really viable tool for two-handers. Lots of love there.

Mostly this- playing both Andrich a sword and board Paladin, and Vesh a great sword Blackguard, both around same level. Both with same charisma.

There is just absolutely no reason outside RP to take anything other then a greatsword as a divine charisma class. You really gain nothing. (Well a woping 3 AC at the cost of half the damage output)

My suggestion for a fix wouldn't be for divine shield. Nothings wrong with it. MY fix would be create Divine class specific shields. Stuff with other odd useful effects on them which take place of the +3-6 AC. That way there is a reason to carry them around for it isn't for the AC with these classes.

Example:
Epic
Tower Shield
+5 Damage Reduction (Slashing/Bludge/Pierce)
+1 Regen
Class Restriction:
Paladin/Blackguard/Cleric

And like the weapons with appearance restrictions. Just state the person using this weapons MUST have the main class of Paladin/Cleric/BG. No deciding to take a single level of Cleric or BG so it overrides the restriction.

[Deleted]

An option would be to consider capping the CHA bonus to AC on the class level that turns undead in the future. However, I don't know if this is fair to existing characters who planned their builds with it in the current format.

[trylobyte]

Mar 21, 2016 16:18:58 GMT -5 whangdoodle said:

Mar 21, 2016 15:13:17 GMT -5 TheGuyThatPlaysAsJames said:

For real, though. To me, it felt like the server change to the spell went from making Cha-based shield users really lopsided in their defense (like it does in base NWN), to making it a really viable tool for two-handers. Lots of love there.

Mostly this- playing both Andrich a sword and board Paladin, and Vesh a great sword Blackguard, both around same level. Both with same charisma.

There is just absolutely no reason outside RP to take anything other then a greatsword as a divine charisma class. You really gain nothing. (Well a woping 3 AC at the cost of half the damage output)

My suggestion for a fix wouldn't be for divine shield. Nothings wrong with it. MY fix would be create Divine class specific shields. Stuff with other odd useful effects on them which take place of the +3-6 AC. That way there is a reason to carry them around for it isn't for the AC with these classes.

Example:
Epic
Tower Shield
+5 Damage Reduction (Slashing/Bludge/Pierce)
+1 Regen
Class Restriction:
Paladin/Blackguard/Cleric

And like the weapons with appearance restrictions. Just state the person using this weapons MUST have the main class of Paladin/Cleric/BG. No deciding to take a single level of Cleric or BG so it overrides the restriction.

These shields would be wonderfully attractive to Clerics more than paladins because Clerics can just Magic Vestment them up to a +5 shield anyway.  Would need to keep that in mind when designing them.  Also, the epic shields are a -lot- more powerful than the one you described, so you can add a bit more.

[Deleted]

Updated this because my thoughts were messily organized and incorrect originally.

[Garage Trashcan]

Also, minor nitpick, but you need three levels of Blackguard to nab Divine Shield/Might. You don't get Turn Undead until 3rd level and with the way the feat system works, you need to take those levels on a level you gain a feat (9/12/15/18 etc). Not a huge thing, but you need a minimum 4 levels of Blackguard to get both Divine Might AND Divine Shield.

or you can just be like me and say, "Fuck Divine Shield, Barbarian/Blackguard glass-cannon, ho!"