Life Seed - Resurrection (Epic Spell) Input needed/required

[Masque]

Hi all, 

I would like to be able to cast the Life Seed's version of Resurrection with Requiem the text is below of what it does -

"A spell developed with the life seed will restore life and complete vigor to any deceased creature. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be returned to life, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead for no longer than two hundred years. For each additional ten years, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1."

I am assuming that this is the particulars of casting resurrection via the life seed -

Spellcraft DC: 27

Components: V, S, DF

Casting Time: 1 minute

Range: Touch

Target: Dead creature touched

Duration: Instantaneous

Saving Throw: None (see text)

Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)


However I have no idea how to calculate the cost of just a resurrection spell with no other bells and whistles or if it would be able to be implemented IG or it would be a pure role play ability. Also just to pre-empt the inevitable you need 24 ranks minimum in Knowledge: Religion or Nature. Requiem has exactly 24 ranks in Knowledge: Religion so the scope of the spell is well within his ability. 

[Vincent07]

There is already a spell in the module for that: Army Unfallen

We are going to be making some adjustments to Epic spells and their development, one of which is I am likely going to further limit the use of the Life and Heal seeds to clerics, rather than just the Religion ranks, as I think was the intention in the PnP ruling.  Raising the dead is something I think should remain the purview of priests, not any mage who banked the points to skill dump into a knowledge skill.

[Edge]

And Druids, I would assume?

[Darvins]

Dec 17, 2013 19:03:27 GMT -5 Edge said:

And Druids, I would assume?

Kind of would like to know that too *nod*

[Masque]

From reading the texts surrounding Epic Spells I am a little surprised that your interpretation is "Only Clerics should be able to cast these spells" as the intention behind the knowledge minimums required seems obvious as it would have been fairly simple to simply state 'Cleric only clause' however it doesn't do that. Instead it follows on from the notion that Epic Magic is allowing Wizards, Clerics and Druids the ability to play with the fundamental forces of magic and blur the distinctions between the distinct spell lists set out by their original class.

It notes that potentially the life and heal seeds have pre-attachments by setting the knowledge limits however to say that a wizard dedicating 24 skill points to be able to emulate something a Cleric can do many, many levels earlier is a cheap tactic that strengthens the class does not seem to add up. I would also note from a fluff perspective in FR that all classes are deriving their spells from a single source which clearly has the ability to be used to restore the dead. While not a common ability it isn't outside the realms of possibility that a particularly gifted Wizard (I.e. Epic) would figure out the secrets himself from intense study of religious text (K: Religion 24 ranks).

For example Druid doesn't have the ability to raise the dead on her spell list would it likewise be inappropriate for them to suddenly gain the capacity to do so?

In terms of the Army Unfallen spell I am very much aware of it but I specifically was looking for something a little less powerful. As Army Unfallen is essentially a mass version.

[Edge]

For example Druid doesn't have the ability to raise the dead on her spell list would it likewise be inappropriate for them to suddenly gain the capacity to do so?

Technically incorrect, Druids have reincarnate, it just didn't get implemented into NWN. I would presume that if storyline were appropriate most DMs would allow a druid of 9th level or higher to make use of the spell with the right components, same as a plot-death raise dead or resurrection.

[Masque]

I did forget about Reincarnate! I think what resurrection and raise dead do are very thematically different however and some would argue deliberately omitted from the Druids spell list due to Druids not interfering with the cycle of life and death your mileage on that particular argument may vary. I personally have no strong opinion either way.

As for the 'skill dumping' aspect that simply isn't true as Knowledge Religion is a class skill for Wizards which would further imply they intended for Wizards to gain the ability (albeit by jumping through a few more hoops).    

[Vincent07]

Yes, druids too. I probably should have typed 'priests' there.  Been running on very little sleep lately.

As for the 'skill dumping' aspect that simply isn't true as Knowledge Religion is a class skill for Wizards which would further imply they intended for Wizards to gain the ability (albeit by jumping through a few more hoops).

Perhaps they did.  I don't recall the Epic handbook making much more distinction in that regard.  My thoughts were more along the lines that, mages already have so much versatility and a number of effects available to them that clerics do not (barring certain domain lists), that why not keep the healing/resurrecting thing in the court of priestly casters?

[Masque]

I think that versatility is certainly eroded when Clerics get access to Epic Spells however. Primarily Mages have two - four spells that Clerics simply can't compete with (pre epic) these being -

Invisibility
Bigby spells
Disjunction
Time Stop

There are Epic Spells that grant three of these abilities - Unseen Wanderer, Superb Dispelling and Epic Time Stop. While Bigby is a decent cheesy Mage spell I think it probably evens out if you compare it to the no-save Word of Faith.

On top of this they get access to enhanced Mage versions of spells such as Epic Mage Armour. Otherwise the Cleric has a fairly similar level of versatility to the Mage but it can also cast in Full Adamantium Plate, Tower Shield and has greater access to AB enhancing buffs without sacrificing his ability to cast spells (Div Power Vs Tensers Transformation).

Now just to make it 100% clear I am in full agreement that arguing over Cleric Vs Wizard in terms of power levels is much like arguing about which is more powerful 100 nuclear bombs or 110 nuclear bombs (whoever wins the world isn't around to see it). However I am not convinced you need to take steps to over-rule canon to protect the Cleric as it takes an absolute ton of work for a Wizard to emulate something that a Cleric will already do better by nature of the synergy that taking K: Religion grants it in comparison to the Wizard.

That being said this is certainly your BBQ and I am happy to play by whatever rules are laid out.

[Nymera]

Dec 17, 2013 20:54:22 GMT -5 Edge said:

For example Druid doesn't have the ability to raise the dead on her spell list would it likewise be inappropriate for them to suddenly gain the capacity to do so?

Technically incorrect, Druids have reincarnate, it just didn't get implemented into NWN. I would presume that if storyline were appropriate most DMs would allow a druid of 9th level or higher to make use of the spell with the right components, same as a plot-death raise dead or resurrection.

Reincarnate is not the same as raising the dead; Druids do not raise the dead.  Reincarnate is exactly what it sounds like, it brings a soul back reborn as a different thing:

www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm

The whole lore reasoning as I understand it is that druids do not believe in the dead returning to life, but are okay with them being born anew as something else.  The whole circle of life thing.  Giving a druid access to a straight up "undo" button for death will violate that very interesting part of their lore and philosophy!   (Kirin's 2 cents.)

[The Red Mage]

I would argue the requirement and DC for such a powerful RP tool should be extremely higher for the server and DMs sake. If a DM wants something to be dead or someone to die at a certain time, and there are no priests around, then something like this with such low requirements would be hard to work around without seeming against the PC who took it.

[germanblangs]

The heal and life seeds both have divine focus requirements.  It states in the epic handbook that if a player has arcane and divine casting abilities they need to pick what realm their epic spell comes from, ie.- arcane or divine, except for heal and life which are always considered divine in origin.  In keeping with the spirit of the classes, clerics should be the only ones that can resurrect people.  While druids technically should have that ability, their desire to not interfere with the nature cycle of things would prevent them from doing so.  However, there might be a certain case where a druid would want to resurrect as opposed to reincarnate, though I doubt they would have put the time and effort into learning how to resurrect when it's generally something they would never do.

[Masque]

What is the page number for Life and Heal are always considered divine from the Epic Level Handbook out of interest?

[Deleted]

It's an interpretation of the rules.  The paragraph on Epic Seeds reads as follows:

An epic spell developed by an arcane spellcaster is arcane, and an epic spell developed by a divine spellcaster is divine.  A character who can cast both divine and arcane spells chooses whether a particular spell he develops will be arcane or divine.  If that same caster uses the heal or life seed in an epic spell, that spell is always considered divine.

Page 88

[Masque]

Oh I see. That would seem to only apply to a caster who can cast both Arcane and Divine spells. It does not state the Heal and Life seeds are solely in the realm of the divine or that specific rule quoted above would be redundant as you wouldn't need to specifically state its source in a hybrid.