Suggestion: Remove Challenge Ratings from Examine. For good.

[Nymera]

Challenge Ratings in the examine window serve pretty much one purpose on CD: allowing players to metagame about how powerful and what level another player is.  We know this happens.  We have seen it happen. Some of us subconsciously do it, if we intend to or not. And we have seen some PCs act overly confident towards other PCs because with the click of a button, they know they vastly out-level them.

Let's end that silliness, once and for all.  Removing challenge ratings is a single line edited on the server ini file.

"But Kirin, I need examine to see if a monster is too strong for me!"

Three things:  This isn't nearly as common a use as most people make it out to be, because half the time spawns appear in aggro radius of you and you're not trying to examine them mid combat.  Secondly, not only do most of us know how hard different hunting spots are by heart, but we can act as guides to new players, or at least give them advice on hunting grounds, leading to more RP and new friendships.   And thirdly, even then, this is not nearly important enough of a function to allow rampant subtle metagaming to continue based on people being able to determine one another's level in-game!

Down with challenge ratings and their metagaming nonsense!

[Deleted]

Those who use it, use it.  Those who don't like it, don't need to look.

And removing the challenge rating on examine seems silly when /listpcs shows actual level.

[Nymera]

Dec 20, 2013 13:34:11 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Those who use it, use it.  Those who don't like it, don't need to look.

And removing the challenge rating on examine seems silly when /listpcs shows actual level.

 /listPCs should not show level either, then.  Your level should not be readily apparent to other players; it always, always leads to metagaming, conscious or not.

"You don't need to look" is not any kind of solution, you can't not look while still reading player descriptions in game.

[ThayanKnight]

I will have to disagree with the premise. While, yes, some people could use the challenge rating as a metagaming tool, others actually do use it for monsters. (I personally do it in combat for future references and such). I don't memorize dungeons generally and I don't always have people to go with. But, if we use this excuse then wouldn't the Roleplay and journal sections of the forum need to be removed as well? They could be used as a metagaming tool. Rather than changing something minor because a couple people don't know how to behave, lets assume the majority of our playerbase is mature enough to not and just let the admin staff handle specific issues if they arise?

[Nymera]

Players have the option of how much information they choose to make public on the forums.  They do not have the option of hiding their challenge rating.

If the ability to determine monster level is critical, then I will be happy to script a targetable widget that can display this information.  I posit that it is not and in fact may weaken immersion on the server, but I am not so adamant on that point.

[ThayanKnight]

But we all have a choice in using said information. Again, I've never been a fan of implementing such things because of a few. A few bad apples don't spoil the whole barrel if you remove the apples.

[Edge]

I was against this the three or four times it came up on the old forums and I'm against it now.

In addition to all the stuff already mentioned, it serves as an assist for players looking for people around their level to party with. As someone with a handful of characters stuck in the level 12-15 limbo zone where it seems to be somewhat difficult to find a party that's not either too low level for me to travel with or too high, it's a definite helpful resource to be able to know which characters are around my level and thus likely to be traveling to areas I can reasonably tag along with.

I agree with Thayan very very strongly on the player behavior bit - if a person is abusing the CR system to know who they can bully and who they can't, that's a specific issue that needs to be handled by the staff on a person-by-person basis.

[Nymera]

Dec 20, 2013 13:45:28 GMT -5 ThayanKnight said:

But we all have a choice in using said information. Again, I've never been a fan of implementing such things because of a few. A few bad apples don't spoil the whole barrel if you remove the apples.

And yet, why not remove or minimize the risk entirely?  What benefit are you gaining from being able to determine another player's level without simply asking them in a Tell and allowing them to choose to tell you or not?

[Edge]

Not bugging people in tells with questions and disrupting RP with OOC conversation, for one.

[Nymera]

Dec 20, 2013 13:50:41 GMT -5 Edge said:

Not bugging people in tells with questions and disrupting RP with OOC conversation, for one.

An excellent point.  One that could be avoided by making the /listPCs list an opt in or opt-out list.

Still, it appears popular opinion is against me on this point, so I won't belabor it any longer.  My piece is said and it serves no purpose for me to continue the conversation if I am the only one who takes my position on the matter.

[ThayanKnight]

I still don't see the risk. CD isn't really a place of OOC smitings just because. If you are having trouble with a player doing it, poke a DM or send a PM. Metagaming can happen. And it still can without the CR. Removing it will not stop the people who really want to metagame.

[Edge]

Yup, what he said. =)

[tenorgeneral]

Personally, I've never seen the use of the CR system, and wouldn't miss it if it went away, as my PCs don't care whether you're higher/lower level than they are and also will retreat from a fight that's way over CR, but to each their own, and if other people like.use it, cool.

One thing about CR that I think does need to be taken into consideration is that fact that the pref-buff scripts and equipment given to many enemy NPCs boosts their CR well above what the base NWN CR would be for a level-equivalent NPC.  Of course with a CR boost, that would mean that monsters which previously were rated as easy or effortless (which therefore don't give huntable xp)  would give xp when slain (assuming the PC hasn't hit the huntable cap for that level).

That's really all I can think of about CR at the moment.

[Nymera]

For the record, I still love you guys.    Don't mistake my opinionated ranting for rage or spite.

(Even if you smell.)

[The Red Mage]

I don't like the examine difficulty myself. I made a similiar thread way back. Any new reasons for players to reach out beyond their comfort zones to socialize with other players about travelling, danger, and combat is a plus for me. We have a dungeon guide for OOC purposes to give a rough estimate of dungeon difficulty. Removing the challenge rating won't dismiss the list of immunities or vulnerabilities for monsters either. I feel more strongly toward this in for monsters than I do for players, but I would like it for players as well.


And I don't agree it helps players find parties at all. I've never once needed to use other people's levels to want to go somewhere. I've been to Frost Giants on level 11 characters and not died. I've been to goblins on a level 18 and RPd selling buffs to other characters who wanted to test their skills against them. It can all be roleplayed accordingly.

"I would like to try the Frost Giants one day."

"What? You're crazy. You'd get hacked in half."

"Perhaps you haven't seen all I'm capable of."

"Well, whatever. It's your death. If you need help, I've heard wind that so, and so, and another so have made the journey and came back alive before. Maybe you can seek them out."

"Thanks. I don't know them that well, but I'll speak to them about it."