Item and Dungeon Levels, Gating, and Locks

[Yaldabaoth]

Certain that I am missing something, but why is it a problem if people have gear above their pc's level?  The items are restricted by use according to tier already.  If a level 3 gets hold of a tier 4 item, they can't use it anyway.  This isn't an attempt to be snarky, I just want to know what the actual issue is.

[Nokteronoth]

The admins don't want lower levels to have people gathering items for them. Say, a level 8 has a good friend that will give them all the tier 4 purple items they could want, and they just hold onto it till the day they turn 16 where they are instantly fully geared and don't have a reason to go dungeon.

~BR

[Fire Wraith]

The item level minimums are just that - minimums. They exist because the system allows for some random chance, because we want you to be able to get that "oh, holy ****" moment when something more powerful than usual drops for you (which can happen, but it's like a 1 in 10000+ chance). This is why the system allows you to have/hold stuff of higher level than you can use.

We don't want you to be already kitted out with gear was given to you, such that you've already gained everything you ought to be looking for at a given level range. If you've already got full T3 the moment you hit 11, you have nothing new to search for except T4+. And if you then wind up with a full set of T4 before you hit 16, you have nothing new to look for except T5, and there's nothing else beyond that - nor will there be.

The system is set up to allow for some luck. What it's not set up for is higher level characters loading you up with gear.

[Mystic Warden]

The easiest would be to remove that minuscule mathematical chance from the loot tables to get a higher tier item than making it impossible for all characters to put anything higher tier than he is into his inventory. Wham, whole problem solved, including the loading up by higher lvl friends.

Is that teeny little 1:10000+ chance worth to keep up a more complicated system and rulings with all the hassles? IMHO not, especially considering that all the lovely staff here (admins, DMs, builders, scripters, etc.) are neck deep in things to do with much higher priority than this.

[Deleted]

If I could, I'd like to make a comment about the recent putting of gates for access to certain "level" dungeons, and I'm saying this from a perspective of a fairly newcomer to the server, who fell in love with it rather quickly.

While I understand the rationale and logic for putting the gates in place, I question the spirit of it. This is a roleplay server, and it encourages roleplay. Even our level progression is mediated with caps and XP over time to encourage this.

I don't want to go to a higher level area because I want to grind faster. I can't anyway. I have to wait those X days of ticks before I'll level whether I grind my level 12 PC in the orc cave, or with the gnolls.

I don't want to go to a higher level area to get higher level gear. I can't wear it anyway, or even carry it if it's two tiers higher than me.

I want to go to a high level area because by ROLEPLAY — organic, active ROLEPLAY with the server at large — my PC has knit meaningfully into a group of PCs who are 3-5 levels higher than mine. All of said group can go out and do stuff that I cannot. To have to fall back and stay behind, when they want to go out and quest, adventure, etc. is an artificial limitation on my ability to roleplay with my character's peers.

No, I don't want to re-knit with a group that's lower level just for the sake of having "grinding buddies." That's contrived RP, which I don't do, and is actually even metagame-ish, and I like my PC's story as it's evolved on its own.

I fail to see the reasoning for locking areas away from a character based on level, when the supposed rationale for it - gear and XP, is already mediated mechanically by other, effective means.

I used to not even care that it took days worth of fairy ticks just to get the XP to gain a level. I actually -liked that level gain is mediated.

Now, it's a grueling ordeal, because it's just that much longer I have to go before I get to RP with the other characters in my character's story without artificial interruption. Meanwhile, they gain XP and levels too, which means it's that much longer.

That's my perspective on it.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jan 15, 2016 2:07:28 GMT -5  @misplacedmaskarran said:

If I could, I'd like to make a comment about the recent putting of gates for access to certain "level" dungeons, and I'm saying this from a perspective of a fairly newcomer to the server, who fell in love with it rather quickly.

While I understand the rationale and logic for putting the gates in place, I question the spirit of it. This is a roleplay server, and it encourages roleplay. Even our level progression is mediated with caps and XP over time to encourage this.

I don't want to go to a higher level area because I want to grind faster. I can't anyway. I have to wait those X days of ticks before I'll level whether I grind my level 12 PC in the orc cave, or with the gnolls.

I don't want to go to a higher level area to get higher level gear. I can't wear it anyway, or even carry it if it's two tiers higher than me.

I want to go to a high level area because by ROLEPLAY — organic, active ROLEPLAY with the server at large — my PC has knit meaningfully into a group of PCs who are 3-5 levels higher than mine. All of said group can go out and do stuff that I cannot. To have to fall back and stay behind, when they want to go out and quest, adventure, etc. is an artificial limitation on my ability to roleplay with my character's peers.

No, I don't want to re-knit with a group that's lower level just for the sake of having "grinding buddies." That's contrived RP, which I don't do, and is actually even metagame-ish, and I like my PC's story as it's evolved on its own.

I fail to see the reasoning for locking areas away from a character based on level, when the supposed rationale for it - gear and XP, is already mediated mechanically by other, effective means.

I used to not even care that it took days worth of fairy ticks just to get the XP to gain a level. I actually -liked that level gain is mediated.

Now, it's a grueling ordeal, because it's just that much longer I have to go before I get to RP with the other characters in my character's story without artificial interruption. Meanwhile, they gain XP and levels too, which means it's that much longer.

That's my perspective on it.

A lot of us share this sentiment, especially considering there are ways a level 12 or 13 or 14 PC CAN be useful in those high-level dungeons (outside of being a buffbot or healbot) without getting "carried" and I've seen it done multiple times. You'd be surprised how much damage a maximized or empowered fireball will to do frost giants.

The problem is that it was commonplace for people to get carried through these areas and given loot or an absurdly inappropriate amount of gold at the end. As mentioned, they don't want people fully gearing up before they're even at the tier. The sad reality is that now if your mid-level PC is friends with high levels or epics, your only adventuring option is to faceroll through some mid-level or lower-end high-level dungeon. But this is the price we pay for balance.

It's also worth noting that the level restrictions are still in a "beta" phase, as the admins have mentioned and that they're subject to change. We may see them loosening up a little bit, but there's no guarantee of that.

[Deleted]

Epic areas are unlikely to ever be unlocked below level 18.  The rest are still open for review.

[Deleted]

My level 12 pcs would likely be one-shot in an epic level area as it is.

Areas below that, however. Those with level 14 and 15 locks, is my level 12 being there really that unbalancing, or abusing in some way? When is a 2 or 3 level deficit upsetting to the game or enjoyment of other players? For that matter, if I've managed to make some bad ass level 8 and can survive ogres, and I'm contributing to RP and the party in general by being there, why not? Again, it's a roleplay server, not an action server.

I'm also not the sort to let myself be dragged around and sheltered from the danger. Anyone who's adventured with my squishy Sharessan can attest she dives into the fray with both blades, singing. While there may be "common" instances of lowbies being cradled along, I'm going to venture that it's the exception, not the rule.

Between four admins and an active enthusiastic DM base, this server has more caretakers than most nwn servers still out there. To deal with those who want to abuse the systems in the game, snoop and slap is the better mechanic, better than any system you could code.

[Edge]

Between four admins and an active enthusiastic DM base, this server has more caretakers than most nwn servers still out there. To deal with those who want to abuse the systems in the game, snoop and slap is the better mechanic, better than any system you could code.

For ten years, we did.

A major part of the reason these locks are in place is because we've gotten very tired of having to pull people aside to tell them to stop, gotten even more tired of announcements on the forums being overlooked or ignored, and because it's become more and more commonplace over the past six months or so.

The same reason we ended up putting in the color-codes for items a couple years past, and around the same time we locked down dungeons we added the "cannot pick up items two tiers above your current level" code.

Trust me, I would LOVE to be able to leave things be and handle all these problems on an individual basis, and punish only the rulebreakers rather than the whole server for the actions of a few.

But people have proven that is no longer a viable, realistic option.

The straw has already broken the camel's back.

[Fire Wraith]

Yes, what Edge said. The hardcoded system was also meant to remove the uncertainty for the players, because in the past, you had to guess at what items were or weren't appropriate, which caused unnecessary stress for lots of well meaning players and DMs. In my opinion the color coding works a lot better for that, both in terms of making life easier on us, but also easier on the players.

And to be fair, the problem wasn't just one that stems from one or two bad eggs. The problem was that the system itself was prone to abuse, and basically incentivized it. Absent something preventing you from doing so, it's in your character's interest to have better gear, and is entirely natural to work to gain that through whatever paths you can. And that's fine - but without the hard level gating, people pushed the grey area more and more.

And I don't mean any of this in a negative way either. It's an entirely OOC construct to say "you can't give this sword to your friend, because he's lower level than you are." Unfortunately it's a necessary one, and thus we need to come up with the mechanics that prevent it, so that you're no longer left with the unanswered question, it's preempted by "I can't give it to you, period."

And no, if we removed the chance of finding that 1 in 10000+ item, we'd just make it so that you couldn't hold anything above your tier at all (rather than two tiers up), nevermind equip it.

[Edge]

What a lot of people may not know or realize is that these rules are not new, not impromptu applications, and by and far not implemented without reason. CD has been around for a long time, in the scope of NWN servers and communities. And many of our rules, regulations, and scripted-in restrictions and operations are the result of years of experimentation to find the methods that we find work best. They're the result of, and a byproduct of, countless different attempts and suggestions, tweaks and alterations, over the passage of a great deal of time and the shifting of the community.

It's also why we may seem, to the new or unfamiliar or unaware eye, to be very slow or reluctant to consider suggestions or ideas that come up, especially from newer members or people who have been away for a long time. It's because the system we have is the result of - now - a full DECADE of refinement, gradual tweaks and adjustments, and similar previous suggestions, some of which were taken, some rejected, and some accepted with alterations.

When we do things like this, there's a reason. And it's not something we do quickly or without consideration and discussion. The admins were discussing the idea of these locks, and whether or not it was really necessary to implement them, for over a month before they were first applied. And it was an idea that had come up several times previously over the years, and after various amounts of discussion in those prior opportunities was rejected for whatever reason was appropriate at the time, usually in that it wasn't considered an immediate necessity, and/or that we were still willing and able (HEAVY emphasis on "able") to handle such issues on a case-by-case basis.

Times change, the server's needs change, and the demands on the staff and expectations of the playerbase change. And with such change come adjustments and necessities that may have not been needed or wanted anymore. And outside of that, life changes. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly do not have the kind of free time I had ten years ago. Back when the server first started, I was pretty capable of running a quest a week, sometimes two. Now? Twice a month if I'm leading the quest, maybe a little more as a co-DM, and those are on good months where I'm very free with time; on bad months, like January, I'm barely online at all, and definitely not DMing much. And that's not even counting admin tasks and responsibilities. I'm sure FW, Bella, and Vincent's lives have all undergone similar adjustments and changes of schedule and availability and resources and just plain energy to be that bloody active.

And unfortunately, a side-effect of those kinds of changes is the need to automate things that previously we would have been willing or able (again, emphasis on "able") to handle personally on an individual basis.

And just to pre-empt the question... no, this isn't something that should/could be just "turned over to the DMs". DMs are storytellers. Their job is to shape stories for our world, to entertain players and themselves, and to liven the setting. That's a pretty big task in and of itself. What isn't on their plate is managing players on an OOC level and policing the server; that's the job of the administration. We want our DMs to be able to focus on telling stories and bringing Cormyr to life, expanding characters' interactions and building on plotlines and making this place entertaining and enthralling to play in. They don't need the excess distraction of needing to be Server Cops taking their attention away from that.

[Deleted]

To clarify. I am not complaining at -all about item level restrictions, or even the XP mediation. The XP mediation I even prefer as to allowing for two week level 20's. My only disappointment is in the roadblock to RP with a wholly RP gained circle of IC friends when it comes to going places on the server. Being new, I'm wholly unfamiliar with the level of abuse the mechanics have taken here, so do forgive if I'm limited by my own perspective.

I'm in no way griping about the server as a whole either. It's only the one thing that sort of put me out of sorts with the sort of freedom of IC interaction I'd gotten quickly used to before the change for entering quest areas.

Take my perspective as you will, as you continue to evaluate the locks put on the non-epic areas. I, for one, would be elated to see them open freely for me to take the chance on getting my PC smashed in the mist of her friends again.

[foo]

would it be possible to allow such exceptions, but to have the server log any exceptions to the dungeon level rules? For that matter, since there is another database logging DM xp, could it be possible to let people have an exception of one out-of-level dungeon entry a week? That way an occasional casual entry wouldn't be penalized, but the people who have friends could bring them along once in a while.

[ladybug]

The people who are high enough level to get into said dungeons have been around long enough that they know better. Why should Vince have to code in a catch that enables them to continue getting around the rules?

[foo]

Jan 15, 2016 18:24:39 GMT -5 ladybug said:

The people who are high enough level to get into said dungeons have been around long enough that they know better. Why should Vince have to code in a catch that enables them to continue getting around the rules?

Its not a catch that lets you get around the rules. It lets people have some flexibility with doing occasional runs with people under their level for social reasons, but doesn't let people use it for power leveling.