Paladin Mechanics Discussion (Discussion Welcome)

[Aliana]

On review of the class and how it interacts with the available options my opinion is that it's as people say, a solid B-Tier class that suffers mainly from unfavourable comparison with a Favoured Soul/Divine Champion which pre-ascension can reach 4 APR, Level 8 Spells that are stronger than anything a Paladin will ever have, Divine Might/Shield and depending on the Deity a useful Weapon Specialization. Also Monk Omni-Saves.

This isn't meant to be a complaint about imbalance just to highlight clearly and unambiguously what is on the table when people sit down and try to decide what flavour of crusader they would like their character to be. Hospitaler is better than straight cleric but your mileage will vary on whether it's worth making it your third class, as a Cleric.

For Paladin, which gains less, Hospitaler's Bonus Feats paradoxically give less but are also far more badly needed to reach what multi-class options allow a Paladin to scale beyond 1 BAB and d10 HP/Level;with Hospitaler you can reach 10-13 levels of Weaponmaster and reap some of the benefits. But you will notice that what Hospitaler really does here is allow Paladin to qualify for this Prestige Class while picking up Divine Might and Divine Shield. This is pretty modest. With improved evasion you have something but you could definitely unlock Divine Might/Shield with 2 levels of cleric like some sort of Bard dip for evasion and use the same general feats Paladin must spend anyway.

For a very modest suggestion on how to make the class marginally less feat starved I would suggest allowing a LETO request for a focus in a 'Knightly Weapon' 

This would have 3 effects

1. More Paladins would use classical knightly weapons like straight-edged swords, maces, hammers, axes and halberds and feel rewarded for choosing to do so.
2. It provides Paladins (and only Paladins) a feat rebate on Power Attack which they otherwise require to access Divine Might and Divine Shield. Clerics are thus slight less ahead in Martial Combat as they must use a feat to specialize in melee, further defining differences between these two types of divine servant.
3. It would make it easier for Paladins to make use of their multi-classing options without being locked into Hospitaler for the majority of their Paladin levels.

[Garage Trashcan]

While Paladin is a bit feat starved, that's not the core issue of the class. The problem is that there's no incentive for deep investment into it over multiclassing out. The last "Feature" you get is Extra Smiting at 10th and their 4th level spells are mostly crap.

Giving them a singular, highly restricted bonus feat does not solve any actual balance issues. It's a band-aid fix which, admittedly, a lot of our fixes are, hence the +AC on so many base classes that have been added to keep up with AC creep, because that's easier than a server-wide rebalance of every +AC value and absurd stacking some class combos are capable of. And really, this wouldn't band-aid it much at all. A bonus feat every 6 levels like Green Knight would be a closer fix. However, I don't think that's the path Vince would like to take with it.

There's been talk in the past of changing Lay on Hands to a cooldown every X minutes or at least allowing more than 1/day, which would be a welcome change. Their Smites/Day still need minor fixing as the intent was to give them 6 uses after Extra Smiting and I think they only get 5 right now and 3 base.

[Edge]

We're not interested in limiting classes to using only certain kinds of weapons outside the limits on Monk special BAB. There are plenty of deities that sponsor paladins who don't favor "knightly weapons", such as Chauntea and Jergal favoring scythes, Mystra favoring shurikens and quarterstaves, or Deneir favoring daggers.

[Aliana]

Dec 15, 2021 5:39:39 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

While Paladin is a bit feat starved, that's not the core issue of the class. The problem is that there's no incentive for deep investment into it over multiclassing out. The last "Feature" you get is Extra Smiting at 10th and their 4th level spells are mostly crap.

Giving them a singular, highly restricted bonus feat does not solve any actual balance issues. It's a band-aid fix which, admittedly, a lot of our fixes are, hence the +AC on so many base classes that have been added to keep up with AC creep, because that's easier than a server-wide rebalance of every +AC value and absurd stacking some class combos are capable of. And really, this wouldn't band-aid it much at all. A bonus feat every 6 levels like Green Knight would be a closer fix. However, I don't think that's the path Vince would like to take with it.

There's been talk in the past of changing Lay on Hands to a cooldown every X minutes or at least allowing more than 1/day, which would be a welcome change. Their Smites/Day still need minor fixing as the intent was to give them 6 uses after Extra Smiting and I think they only get 5 right now and 3 base.

It wasn't intended as a complete fix per say but as a way to provide an easing of feat tightness that is somewhat fitting to the class lore and isn't as generic as granting power attack would be to ensure that Divine Might and Shield can be acquired without the tax of a prerequisite feat. Giving Divine Might or Shield as a choice between the two at particular levels would disadvantage Paladins that had to take the feat to qualify for Cleave to acquire devastating critical. This just seemed the least offensive way to add a feat without duplication of Hospitaler.

Regarding the restrictions not meshing well with Edge's point about deity favoured weapons I was operating on the precedent that the Favoured Souls of certain gods who have powerful or unusual weapons has a feat tax on Cormyr and the Dale Lands in the form of automatic proficiency requests being denied. Which was slightly disappointing when I was weighing the merits of a Dark Elf or of a Favoured Soul of Kelemvor, who I really enjoyed the depiction of in Neverwinter Nights II.

[Garage Trashcan]

While theoretically possible to grant individual weapon proficiencies, it's a lot of feat 2da work and not worth the effort.

[Fox²]

Dec 17, 2021 8:23:41 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

While theoretically possible to grant individual weapon proficiencies, it's a lot of feat 2da work and not worth the effort.

You can only give a weapon up to 5 proficiency feats. Some of our weapons are already maxed on that, so it's not feasible to create individual weapon proficiency feats in the 2da, directly.

With some nwnx magic it is possible though.

[The Red Mage]

I think giving them +AC late in progression and a couple bonus feats late in progression will help them keep up with Paladin/ X/ Hosp builds. +2 AC at 20, +4 AC at 24. Bonus feats at 23, 26, 29 Paladin. The only reason to go full paladin is for great smite. And well, you need all the feats to make it "worth it". And if you take all those feats, you give up everything else(armor skin, weapon focus, etc).

I think paladin builds otherwise are in an "ok" spot. You can splash hospitaler for bonus feats and dip into a lot of other things.

What makes paladins strong, in general, is that they are a full BAB class with spells and abilities with AB reach. They are a bit self-fulfilling.

[Arilyn]

I suppose I'll weigh in here since Aliana and I have been back and forth on this topic a bit already.

It seems that, at level 30, favored soul builds are objectively optimal for the holy warrior archetype. A cleric/hospitaler provides access to more features in the mid-levels, and remains strong, but the stat spread is less favorable.

Compared to either of these options, paladin suffers for all the reasons mentioned above. I considered paladin when I made Arilyn, but opted against it because there are simply better ways to build a holy warrior, and I wasn't interested in the class for its own sake.

Dec 15, 2021 5:39:39 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

While Paladin is a bit feat starved, that's not the core issue of the class. The problem is that there's no incentive for deep investment into it over multiclassing out. The last "Feature" you get is Extra Smiting at 10th and their 4th level spells are mostly crap.

This strikes me as true. And you're forced, due to multi-classing restrictions, to stick it out or pair the class with something that doesn't offer it a whole lot. So the rules are at odds with mechanical proficiency.

The niche for a paladin vs. a cleric (or a cleric analog like favored soul) is that former focuses on melee while the latter are more proficient spellcasters. The existence of hospitaler and the ease with which you can build a strong melee cleric or favored soul significantly muddy the waters.

So, any buff to paladin should probably amplify its proficiency in melee vs. the cleric types, and also reward a deeper level investment. A good place to start might be to look at substantially buffing the Holy Sword spell, and making its bonuses scale powerfully into the epic levels - it has more of a niche on low magic servers but given the spell changes and loot table here, not so much. Thematically, this is about as pure a change as can be made. Could also look at adding some unique-to-paladin spells that also scale favorably with a deep investment in the class.

That would make a player like me, who chooses a general archetype and then strives to optimize it, take a second look. Some extra feats? Not so much.

[wilkins1952]

I think Paladins as they are now are pretty okay, However I would like to see some love for those who go pure paladin, Perhaps give them a free feat at say Paladin level 18 Something like a DR against Positive and Negative energy for 5 or even something like once per day can cast haste as a spell like ability.

[DubiousScroll]

I'd love to see the multi-classing resctrictions loosened up, to be honest.  You can still get into Divine Might/Shield Sorc and Swordmage builds with Blackguard anyway, and, the power level of the server has spiked pretty hard since the multi-class rules were put in place for Paladin.

And yeah, there's a feat investment in Blackguard but... only slightly?  It feels pretty minimal.

I'd also love to see the alignment restriction loosened up a bit.  Blackguard is any evil and I don't see why Paladin couldn't be any good, especially seeing as we already have CG gods that allow them.  Or maybe add Turn Undead to DC or... something, it kind of stinks right now that the only Sword Mages/Sorcs that can sneak into Divine Might/Shield builds are the evil ones.

[Edge]

Can dip into Cleric or FS and grab DM/DS just fine on a Sorc or Swordmage regardless of alignment (other than one-step rules for whatever your patron happens to be). I know at least one Sorc/Cler/AW build, and there's probably others.

We're not currently interested in changing Paladin's alignment limitations, and the level minimum requirement is more about making some semblance of the order restrictions without having the extreme rigidness of said limitations and ensuring that paladins are primarily paladins both mechanically and in RP, than anything about balance. Ditto for Monks (though slightly less so, as Monk builds have gotten brokenly powerful on dips before, see any server with Monk dip on Shifter allowed for example).

[snorriht]

On a PW I played, there was one Epic boss who I believe had a field which stripped a random buff from each and every character within range, every round. Also, every time a buff was stripped, the character was damaged. The only characters who could reliably tank the boss were high level warriors, monks or paladins.

It is suggest an outstanding once a day ability, gained at 20 Paladin levels, representing the prowess of the Paladin, to go where other fears to tread. RP-wise, this ability is powered their chosen god, and cannot be dispelled by any means. A defensive ability, allowing the Paladin to stand against intractable, primordial evil, would be very characterful.

I'll leave it to the DM/Builder team on the nature of the ability, and perhaps in can be tied into future epic level content.

[haroshia]

Paladin throughout all of 3.x was a dip class, because it's features are very frontloaded and don't scale based on level.  It has the Multiple Attribute Dependency (MAD) issue common in a lot of hybrid classes made even worse by alignment and RP restrictions for very little benefit.  It's also my favorite class from an RP perspective. I've pondered a lot about ways to change paladin and make it more viable while still maintaining the theme of the class and not putting them above a dedicated warrior/WM/whatever.  These suggestions are made with ease of implementation in mind based on the current mechanics in game.  

1) Dump wisdom, give them Charisma casting.  Paladin is a front-line fighting class, which means it needs Str/Dex AND probably at least 13 Int and enough Con to not explode.  This basically means they need to dump either Cha or Wis, and most are going to dump Wis anyways because they need Cha for Divine Might/Shield.  Giving Charisma casting reduces MAD strain and helps the class synergize better with existing PRC options.

2) Give paladins access to a single deity appropriate Cleric domain to expand on their spell list.  Obviously this is going to step on the toes of clerics a little bit, but since they're only getting up to level 4 casting anyways it won't replace them.

3) Let paladins pick from a small list of thematic "Favored Enemies" like the Ranger at certain levels.  Obviously not as many as the ranger, but this would let them specialize as undead hunters, or devil hunters, or whatever.  Maybe just let them pick from one but have it scale similarly to the ranger and give them access to Bane of Enemies.

4) Give paladins free Focus/Epic Focus in their deity's weapon of choice.  They are a bit feat tight and this feels like just a tax.  

[Edge]

1, 2, and 3 are not doable in NWN's mechanics due to blackbox.

[haroshia]

Feb 1, 2022 12:02:53 GMT -5 Edge said:

1, 2, and 3 are not doable in NWN's mechanics due to blackbox.

Yeesh.  I've seen such things done, but I assume they required a total rebuild of the class rather than a change to the existing class then?