Discussion: Deity Changes

[Deleted]

So... from what I'm reading... we have two different cases we're looking at:  the in-character conversion and the ooc change/misinformation.

An -in character- conversion should involve at least some degree of difficulty?  The quest for the faith, and finding an appropriate cleric to cast atonement, should be sufficient?  Again, how much should level play a factor in this (if at all)?

OOC fixes should likely have a level cap where, beyond that, the character's RP is considered established and requires an actual conversion.  Yay/nay?

[Darvins]

Mar 30, 2015 14:44:22 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

So... from what I'm reading... we have two different cases we're looking at:  the in-character conversion and the ooc change/misinformation.

An -in character- conversion should involve at least some degree of difficulty?  The quest for the faith, and finding an appropriate cleric to cast atonement, should be sufficient?  Again, how much should level play a factor in this (if at all)?

OOC fixes should likely have a level cap where, beyond that, the character's RP is considered established and requires an actual conversion.  Yay/nay?

Can I add here, DM time and availability needs to be a factor here, the process can be complicated and time consuming if in such cases of a high level cleric the attention of a DM can be assured, preferably for all, if not, then it needs to be far simpler, because otherwise, your going to have a two tier system, where the Player who can get that DM attention gets through the process and those who don't for whatever reason (DM taking a break or whatever) is left feeling very frustrated. Being a spell less high level cleric is not fun if it stays that way for sometime, and there is no sense of progress. Being a spell less High Level Cleric who is having to deal with situations based around their conversion anyway, could be very much awesome and fun on the other hand forcing the player/character to find new ways to deal with what would otherwise be much simpler problems.

So yes being a complicated process can be fun, but it can also back fire hideously and leave players feeling left out. I'd also say whatever system is agreed on needs to be the same for all players, because if two Clerics of similar level convert and one guy gets an epic quest out of it and the other is waved through it can feel like the one being waved through is missing out, and their characters growth and change being ignored. Or being treated as just not as interesting as the other persons, which is... yeah not going to be fun for folks. 

[Deleted]

On the one hand, Darvins, I agree with you about the frustration.

However, when a conversion (I assume we're dealing with the in-character situation) occurs, there's a marked difference between someone not needing to change alignments to follow their new deity and one who does.  Those that also need alignment switches would need to demonstrate their change of heart through actions in the quest for their new faith (ideally).  

[Darvins]

Mar 30, 2015 15:44:45 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

On the one hand, Darvins, I agree with you about the frustration.

However, when a conversion (I assume we're dealing with the in-character situation) occurs, there's a marked difference between someone not needing to change alignments to follow their new deity and one who does.  Those that also need alignment switches would need to demonstrate their change of heart through actions in the quest for their new faith (ideally).  

And yeah on early char misunderstandings of the diety I'm agreeing with just making it oocly simple and folks pretending it never happened early levels can be a period of discovery for a player even experienced in the setting players can be surprised by the way the char turns out. Look at Iyanna, when I first imagined her she was going to be cold distant and serious I think most people would agree I failed utterly in making her that.... I don't think early levels should be cast in stone, and think the point where your needing more Roleplay XP than combat is a good line in the sand for that discovering the character period.

On actual roleplayed conversions
I'd agree with that so can I add in case of extreme switches, as I said making it something that has to be really earned is not a bad idea in itself, as long as people can be sure of the DM support being there, in fact with that assurance it offers a lot of good role play chances and fun quests that could bring back the real sense of danger that can at times be lost or at least be far harder to achieve when you get high level. As long as the system is tight enough to catch people so they don't get forgotten, or feel left out, or that their characters roleplay is being viewed as less important than someone elses... Then make it long and complicated for those big switches, but make sure that the process of earning it never feels like it was forgotten. If that can be done it would make for awesome, rewarding and plain fun roleplay for all involved I think anyway...

[Nokteronoth]

I'd agree with the idea of needing a cap on the OOC fixes at a certain level for deity. Once you hit ascension, you've been playing the character for -months-. Gotten into the different events. Met people. Made your mark. And if you're a cleric or paladin, you should really know at least the general idea of your faith by that point. Even if you don't know the deity by heart, it really isn't hard to Google the names, at least, and read some of the entries such as on Wikipedia.

After a certain point, there really isn't an excuse for saying 'Oh, I goofed OOCly." That would be like hitting level 30 as a fighter build and going 'Oh, my character's really a spellcaster. I fucked up on creation." and remaking them from level 1 to be a Theruge, and asking to be put back up to 30.

~BR

[Edge]

As I said before, the logical cutoff point is really around 10-12. Those would be the levels where you've had some time to get the feel of the character and determine if the concept at creation matches with how they're being played and how they look to develop, you've got a decent handle on their ensuing mechanics, and at the same time the character is still relatively new - considering you can get to those levels with very little RP XP involved, mostly just by hunting and doing in-game quests, rarely needing much if any actual DM questing - and has not had a sufficient amount of time to really establish themselves and their association with any deity or faction.

[Arya]

My thoughts on this discussion.

1) Should level be a factor?

Yes.  As many have pointed out, people do not always know what a character will be like until they start playing it.  Being someone who wanted Daeatria to have been a concept that was initially "banned/severely restricted," and then finding out she was very different in her beginnings, I do not think it fair to make people "stick" with their errors in those first ten levels.  I think on some servers, people do not require a biography of a character until they reach level ten or so for this reason.  

In my personal ruling, I would not be stringent on a character's deity or even chosen path until they are level 10 - this goes for standard and exotic races.  

2) How would you like to see conversions handled when falling is not a factor (i.e. closely allied/similar deities, no alignment changes, etc.)?

I think the Player's Handbook ideas for this are sufficient.  If we wanted to be even more specific, though, I would do something like the following once they reached level ten or higher...

If a character is 'falling' drastically from the path of their original deity (e.g., going from an evil to good deity), and converts to an opposing/very opposite deity as a cleric, I would probably only require a minimum of four quests before they can use spells again, showing their worth.  This way, it is not a "one year" sort of scenario. Multiple DMs can be involved in this, as well, to speed up the process.  No one DM should monopolize something like this unless the player consents or only wants specific DM styles involved (we all know we have our preferences).

If a character converts to a deity who is either similar in concept or an ally to their original deity, I would acknowledge them being two separate scenarios, but likely only suggest maybe 1-2 quests minimum before clerics can cast spells again.  I would still like to think that these sort of conversions are not going to have the same stakes as, say, a worshiper of Bahamut falling and worshiping Tiamat. 

It is not a perfect system, but I think it would work to serve its purposes. 

3) The PHB2 had a process detailed for conversion/retraining to a new deity.  To summarize, the process involved only a few events (rather than the year-long process that has occurred here in the past).  Should our process more closely mirror this?

Definitely.  Please see above for some ideas! 

4) What would you (ideally) see as the process for changing deities?

A combination of the above. If characters are below level 10, I really do not think we need to be strict on stuff changing, since...again, people are still having a feel of the characters.  Once they get past that point, and there is a more solid roleplay established, -then- we start using the system above, which satisfies what the source material suggests, anyway (bar with more specific numbers).

My thoughts.

Sincerely,
Arya

[Nokteronoth]

Did this ever get decided, out of curiosity?

It seems to me that most of the agreement comes from - It's okay to change a deity up until level 10-12 or so, when the character is getting more established/important/known/played.

So could a cleric or other character change their deity at that point (But not after) without too much fuss, as long as they keep within (General) alignment and all to match the character?

~BR

[Deleted]

I'll chime in.

Should level be a factor?
If you are cleric, paladin, blackguard, divine champion, divine seeker, ranger, or druid (maybe less so for druid depending) then the character's amount of service to their deity (vs. level) should come into play. If the character's story has been tightly bound to a particular religion then they change their deity that could have ripple effects on other's that should be considered and maybe DM shepherded. This is more for the character's around the transition than for the character themselves.

What should the process be?
Since it can't really be a one size fits all scenario, I'd propose the following outline:
1) Mistake or lack of knowledge of FR lore (below level 10, give or take) - This shouldn't require much. Initially I'd say staff should interface with the player making sure they understand the new deities doctrine and that the character's behavior aligns with it. Ideally a small ceremony to 'indoctrinate' the character into the new faith, sort of like the ascension of an 'acolyte or novice' to the full faith.

2) For levels 10 and above, I'd say the atonement spell of someone within the faith with a small quest (and or offering) attached is probably the best way to handle it.

Notice I didn't address fallen scenarios. That is a different thing, IMO, if staff decides someone meets the criteria of a fall, they need to work with the player to determine how to fix it. I don't think this will come up here aside in the most egregious scenarios.

[Deleted]

A decision is being made, thank you for the input.

Sometime in the next few weeks, I will post guidelines regarding deity changes and atonements.