Remove OOC information

[Atomic Twinkie]

So, one of my pet peeves that is starting to grow more and more as I play on this server is the ability to metagame information about a character based on OOC information that you cannot control. Now, I know that generally we trust the players around us not to metagame things but the fact of the matter is that not 100% of people will separate their OOC knowledge from their IC knowledge - sometimes it's less intentional (for example yesterday when I had to stop myself from accidentally giving information that my character wouldn't know) and other times it's more blatant (such as inspecting a character to decide whether or not your character is willing to risk a fight, doing /listpcs just to see what level someone is or even checking someone's immunities to get an idea what race they are, and some people checking log in to get a general idea of a character's build and classes).

There's a few solutions available that are generally pretty simple and help prevent this sort of thing, and I've seen multiple servers implement this with relative ease - it's not really hard work and generally helps bring things in to IC a bit more rather than OOC.

1) Remove the list of buffs and debuffs at the bottom of a character's description.
   -This is generally a good thing since it's the quickest and easiest way of metagaming someone's race or strengths, allowing you to plan exactly the easiest way to screw them over.

2) Remove the 'Challenge Rating' at the start of a character's description.
   - Doing this will essentially make everyone "Just people" rather than a "Level 90 Dwarven War Princess with ultimate powers". The way people react to them is based on how they perform in battle and the reputation that they build with people around them, rather than inspecting them - seeing "impossible" and then deciding it's not really worth it or visa versa, challenging anyone with a rating of "Challenging" or lower to a fight since you can likely take them.

3) Remove character levels on log-in.
   - To clarify, it's the text underneath the name with the class names and amounts of levels that I'm talking about. This is basically just another way to stop people from getting a general idea of what kind of character you're playing based on OOC knowledge and keeps it restricted to what they learn IC.

These are basically just some quality of life changes that I think would be good and would all over help to prevent deliberate or accidental metagaming. Thoughts? ^^

[sinisteromnibus]

May 30, 2014 13:19:47 GMT -5 Atomic Twinkie said:

So, one of my pet peeves that is starting to grow more and more as I play on this server is the ability to metagame information about a character based on OOC information that you cannot control. Now, I know that generally we trust the players around us not to metagame things but the fact of the matter is that not 100% of people will separate their OOC knowledge from their IC knowledge - sometimes it's less intentional (for example yesterday when I had to stop myself from accidentally giving information that my character wouldn't know) and other times it's more blatant (such as inspecting a character to decide whether or not your character is willing to risk a fight, doing /listpcs just to see what level someone is or even checking someone's immunities to get an idea what race they are, and some people checking log in to get a general idea of a character's build and classes).

There's a few solutions available that are generally pretty simple and help prevent this sort of thing, and I've seen multiple servers implement this with relative ease - it's not really hard work and generally helps bring things in to IC a bit more rather than OOC.

1) Remove the list of buffs and debuffs at the bottom of a character's description.
   -This is generally a good thing since it's the quickest and easiest way of metagaming someone's race or strengths, allowing you to plan exactly the easiest way to screw them over.

2) Remove the 'Challenge Rating' at the start of a character's description.
   - Doing this will essentially make everyone "Just people" rather than a "Level 90 Dwarven War Princess with ultimate powers". The way people react to them is based on how they perform in battle and the reputation that they build with people around them, rather than inspecting them - seeing "impossible" and then deciding it's not really worth it or visa versa, challenging anyone with a rating of "Challenging" or lower to a fight since you can likely take them.

3) Remove character levels on log-in.
   - To clarify, it's the text underneath the name with the class names and amounts of levels that I'm talking about. This is basically just another way to stop people from getting a general idea of what kind of character you're playing based on OOC knowledge and keeps it restricted to what they learn IC.

These are basically just some quality of life changes that I think would be good and would all over help to prevent deliberate or accidental metagaming. Thoughts? ^^

I would like to see this happen. These things have only ever led to metagaming on every server I've seen them on.

[Deleted]

forums.cormyrdalelands.com/index.php?topic=356

It's been discussed to death before.  So far, the policy is "punish the few offenders rather than those who use it legitimately."  That's generally the approach the staff takes to pretty much everything.

[Atomic Twinkie]

To be fair, that was posted and finished around the time I started. So I don't think I could have been expected to know about that thread, but thank you for linking it!

I've had a read through a lot of it, and it seems to be the major arguments for it is: It helps people gather parties and, as you stated, we can punish the offenders instead of removing temptation.

The problem with the latter, in my opinion, is that metagaming isn't always apparent or obvious - someone starts avoiding your character because they've realized you're a vampire on an OOC level not an IC one, and thus you as a player are now short of some RP because somebody decided not to get involved, because of OOC information. I'm pretty sure this has already happened to me, as a matter of fact, however I cannot prove it as it's something that happens in the background. As for the former, it's rather easy to send someone a tell and ask - or try and stick to level appropriate dungeons, if someone tells you then that's down to them and not you.

[Garage Trashcan]

If someone wants to specifically avoid you because of what they found on your description, that's their choice. Their loss of RP. No reason to cry over it.

Do you like the character's personality? Sure, play with them. If not, don't.

And the CR is a two-way street. With it, you can use it to know not to provoke someone into PvP. But if you're a high-level epic, you can use it specifically TO provoke someone into PvP. In the end it just saves on some drama and lets you know why someone is being a bully. And then you judge them for that. You judge them for that so hard and then continue on with your life, continuing to play the game with the people you enjoy playing with.

[sinisteromnibus]

May 30, 2014 13:43:47 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

If someone wants to specifically avoid you because of what they found on your description, that's their choice. Their loss of RP. No reason to cry over it.

Do you like the character's personality? Sure, play with them. If not, don't.

And the CR is a two-way street. With it, you can use it to know not to provoke someone into PvP. But if you're a high-level epic, you can use it specifically TO provoke someone into PvP. In the end it just saves on some drama and lets you know why someone is being a bully. And then you judge them for that. You judge them for that so hard and then continue on with your life, continuing to play the game with the people you enjoy playing with.

My issue with this is simply this:

You cannot rp with yourself. This is also the problem with the "instead of removing temptation we'll ban the transgressors" mindset. Neverwinter Nights is an old game, and its community is relatively small. Cutting that community down even more by banning people or allowing players to "just deal with it" when it comes to people metagaming and avoiding rp doesn't seem a very proactive solution to me.

Personally, I've already been involved in at least 3 instances where pvp was pushed on a character of mine specifically due to my character showing up as "effortless" or "easy" when someone was reading my bio. In one of these instances the player pushing pvp was beaten and then the ooc tells began. Sigh. At this point, this particular player (not character) seems content to avoid all of my characters out of hand. That sucks since my other characters greatly enjoyed their interactions with some of his/hers.

How did I know the pvp was motivated by the metagamed knowledge of my character's challenge rating? Well, the character in question has a seriously bad attitude with EVERYONE, and yet anyone remotely close to his level (with the notable exception of one person) never takes things to pvp. It's only EVER when I see that they're "Impossible" that the pressure for pvp really gets applied hard.

As per the above, the challenge rating system is a truly obnoxious impediment to immersive rp. Whether my character gets his butt kicked by a higher level or stomps a lower level should be determined by the rp that leads up to such a confrontation, and I should not even be given the temptation (nor the subconscious nudge) to rp my character inconsistently either to avoid confrontation or to push it. So, with this system in place even players who have no intention of metagaming levels of other characters are going to end up doing so without thinking a lot of the time.

Anyway, I'm not sure how involved making this change would be, but as a player I can definitely say I'd like to see it happen. Every server I've played on prior to CD where the challenge rating of players was hidden has - in my opinion - had a much higher immersion to rp than those without.

[Yaldabaoth]

May 30, 2014 15:13:57 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

May 30, 2014 13:43:47 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

If someone wants to specifically avoid you because of what they found on your description, that's their choice. Their loss of RP. No reason to cry over it.

Do you like the character's personality? Sure, play with them. If not, don't.

And the CR is a two-way street. With it, you can use it to know not to provoke someone into PvP. But if you're a high-level epic, you can use it specifically TO provoke someone into PvP. In the end it just saves on some drama and lets you know why someone is being a bully. And then you judge them for that. You judge them for that so hard and then continue on with your life, continuing to play the game with the people you enjoy playing with.

My issue with this is simply this:

You cannot rp with yourself. This is also the problem with the "instead of removing temptation we'll ban the transgressors" mindset. Neverwinter Nights is an old game, and its community is relatively small. Cutting that community down even more by banning people or allowing players to "just deal with it" when it comes to people metagaming and avoiding rp doesn't seem a very proactive solution to me.

Personally, I've already been involved in at least 3 instances where pvp was pushed on a character of mine specifically due to my character showing up as "effortless" or "easy" when someone was reading my bio. In one of these instances the player pushing pvp was beaten and then the ooc tells began. Sigh. At this point, this particular player (not character) seems content to avoid all of my characters out of hand. That sucks since my other characters greatly enjoyed their interactions with some of his/hers.

How did I know the pvp was motivated by the metagamed knowledge of my character's challenge rating? Well, the character in question has a seriously bad attitude with EVERYONE, and yet anyone remotely close to his level (with the notable exception of one person) never takes things to pvp. It's only EVER when I see that they're "Impossible" that the pressure for pvp really gets applied hard.

As per the above, the challenge rating system is a truly obnoxious impediment to immersive rp. Whether my character gets his butt kicked by a higher level or stomps a lower level should be determined by the rp that leads up to such a confrontation, and I should not even be given the temptation (nor the subconscious nudge) to rp my character inconsistently either to avoid confrontation or to push it. So, with this system in place even players who have no intention of metagaming levels of other characters are going to end up doing so without thinking a lot of the time.

Anyway, I'm not sure how involved making this change would be, but as a player I can definitely say I'd like to see it happen. Every server I've played on prior to CD where the challenge rating of players was hidden has - in my opinion - had a much higher immersion to rp than those without.

This exact behavior has, unfortunately, been an issue for a very, very long time.  People usually won't have their characters mouth off to characters that could extinguish them with a thought.

[Atomic Twinkie]

Thus my suggested changes that would eliminate the safety net certainty.

[Vincent07]

My thoughts on this, which I've stated before:

Don't metagame. Easy as that. Examining a PC and seeing X effect or Y challenge rating, or seeing their level spread on log-in should never change how you react to them, as it is not IC knowledge.

[Garage Trashcan]

Everything that has been or can be mentioned in this thread has been previously mentioned in the other thread. This has been brought up before on the old forums as well, at least twice. The same conclusion has been come to every time. That's not to say it won't necessarily change (like the conversations about the XP systems, as they've become increasingly lenient over time), but I doubt this conversation will result in any new revelations and changes.

Sure, you can't RP alone, but if they're a PvP-mongering, metagaming jerkwad, why would you want to play with them in the first place? I'm not saying I'm "immune" to the metagaming. I've never been the victim of it (aside from being accused to calling out a much higher-leveled character solely because he couldn't PvP me in that area), despite playing a character of (at the very least) questionable morals with a very public bio. That's not to say that the occasional thought hasn't crossed my mind, but at least then its conscious and not subconscious so I can choose to ignore it.

The level of metagaming paranoia is astounding and has only gotten worse.  I don't even see a use for the Exotic Race forum anymore since everyone just submits privately nowadays. I know it might sound stupid to take it up on yourself (not sarcastic), but if the person was okay with you before, but now they're not, talk to them about it. If they don't want to "work things out" or maybe they just avoided you outright in the first place, they're not worth the effort. Let them be childish and narrowminded and in the mindset that they constantly need to be ahead of everyone else in a game that is in no way competitive.

What it really boils down to is, regardless of players who use it as a legitimate resource vs. those who use it to "cheat", preference. Some people like things one way, other's like them differently. That doesn't make one "better" than the other, it's simply what people feel more comfortable doing.

If there's ONE thing I learned from playing here for the past 6 years, it's to stop worrying about what other people are doing. You just end up bitter and upset with everything. If a few people are going to be spoilsports, don't bother with them. Focus on yourself and having fun, and if someone is constantly provoking you, send them a tell and politely ask them to stop because it's antagonistic and anti-fun.

[Fire Wraith]

This is certainly an old conversation, but to a certain degree I for one don't mind discussion now and then - CD is neither a static community, nor a static module.  Things change, and adapt - though they usually do so slowly, and in measured ways, after much consideration, rather than quickly and radically.

For one, I'm not going to say that metagaming outright is a bane and evil thing in all situations - because we have to be careful how we define these things.  For one, the general definition of influencing in-game play and actions with out of character information, I can come up with several instances where it's perfectly legal to do exactly that on CD - such as sending an OOC tell to your friend so you can meet up and roleplay.  I see nothing wrong with consensual metagame information being used to facilitate roleplay, storytelling, and fun.

But the key word there is consensual.  Most of the abusive or objectionable instances of metagaming, or "Where it's a problem", tend to come when you throw competition in the mix (IC and/or OOC).  That part I'd certainly like to minimize, though there are sometimes other concerns as well.

For instance, effects show up on examine (still), in part because we eliminated a lot of the visual effects that would normally correspond with them.  I'm not averse to reconsidering that, but it's something that should be kept in mind as we do so.

Another would be the challenge rating - we've kept it partly because of PC vs NPC (sizing up a monster).

But ultimately, it's going to be possible to metagame to some degree regardless.  The best measure against this, I think, is all of us acting to try and identify when it does pop up, and try to make sure it doesn't unduly influence the course of play, or most important of all, ruin the fun that we're having (since that's the core goal of all CD - for all of us to have fun playing here).

And if anyone does feel like something has gotten out of hand, Vincent and I are usually quite willing/capable of helping track things down and try to put out fires where they crop up (even and especially after the metagaming has "metastasized", i.e., spread from the original metagaming PC to others, who don't realize it's not valid IC information, etc).

[dagesh]

The fact that this comes up often also reveals something.  Here's another thread from about a year ago:

www.createforum.com/cormyrdalelands/viewtopic.php?t=19254

Even if someone wanted to avoid seeing a CR, if you want to read a PC's bio, it's right there at the top.  Effects you can get away with not seeing.

From what I understand here are the pros for having visible CR, character levels, effects:
-Easy to party up
-Easy to distribute loot
-Reveals NPC difficulty
-It colors RP
-Info is already provided on the forums in journals and diaries
-Losing gold on death can be rough
-Players should focus on the fun

And the cons of having visible CR, character levels, effects:
-The work load for changing over
-Hampers RP
-Reveals evil class easily
-Examining CR on NPCs doesn't help as they are already up in your business.
-Info posted on the forums is governed by poster where CR and the like are not
-There is an OOC dungeon guide
-Penalty of first death is only gold

Here's one major rule of thumb; will this affect your roleplay? If you want to keep CR and answer no to this question then it's a moot point.  Instead of simply saying, "Just don't meta." why not support those this is affecting?  If you are not affected either way then let's support those people this does affect.  Since the philosophy of the server is to promote fun, let's do that.  It might include removing the CR, effects, and levels in the log in screen (which I can send all the information to change it in a about a minute).

I say give it a try for a bit. See what life is like without a CR, effects, and the like for a bit. It's been revealed on CD for years.  Why not give the other side a try?

[Fire Wraith]

I'm not sure if the CR itself reveals evil classes, so much as the display of class levels at the login character select screen does.  If anything I'd want to remove that.  I think that knowing someone's general level (because ECL isn't displayed on either of these) is less of an issue than knowing that friendly Joe Smith is a Rogue/Assassin/Blackguard.

[Arya]

I for one would actually not be against giving the suggestion a shot.  It is one of those cases where I think people can communicate OOCly on a need-to-know basis when it comes to partying with one another.  Truth be told, we do not communicate -enough- on this server regarding our expectations, and expect others to have ESP.  Then act in unhealthy ways when dealing with the frustration that comes from the lack of it (or get condescending sometimes).  

While I am kind of worried about just how paranoid some players here are about the OOC information bit, I also do not think just banning a few offenders is the only solution to this.  It is not a removal that is going to penalise the players in any way, shape, or form.  Not like the several cases I know where something like an item enchantment was banned because there was a concern about abuse from one or two (regardless of what the truth of the case was). That ruling seemed to come about as a "everyone had to pay the price for the actions of the few" - I strongly opposed it and told the admins as much.  

We all know it is hard to undo OOC information.  Skilled roleplayers can be mindful of it and still interact in a non-harmful way, but others might still act in more subtle manners.  For instance, I was concerned that someone was competitively metagaming a while back when people started to spread rumours on a character of mine about fiendish blood after a succubus accused the person of being a 'sister.'  Most sensible people know succubi are skilled liars, and could be twisting a number of facts up in that situation (and she really did in this case).  It was found out that the  competitive metagaming was not going on, but that could have easily been the situation.  Sometimes, it is not even intentional.  

To use myself as an example again: if I were less insightful, I could easily let my bias against evil characters (and their players) affect my roleplay with others and deliberately avoid evil characters.  We had more history with those than problem 'good' playing players (not that I'd count the few playing a goodie anyway, but that is another subject).  Fortunately enough, I am aware of this to where I can just let the side have its corner in my mind and keep on playing with said people.  And I still count some active playing evils as OOC friends.  Not everyone has that awareness of their own biases, though.  I was fortunate enough to take classes on anthropology, sociology, and postcolonial studies.  Classes that make one aware that everyone is biased, will carry prejudice into situations, etc.  

Sincerely,
Arya

[The Red Mage]

I have always been for this idea, and I continue to think it will be nothing but beneficial in comparison to what we have. You can read my reasons on every thread this has came up on throughout the passed years.