Gladiator League

[trylobyte]

One thing I'd propose, if these are to be mechanical fights, would be a limit or ban on certain well-known types of cheese.  House rules, if you will, in the interests of making the fights more fighty and less 'who presses the win button first.'  Some proposed guidelines (which I know shaft rogues a bit):

Don't spam HIPS.  It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against.  Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown.  Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight.  They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against.  Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith.  It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena.  A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity.  It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness.  It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything.  Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level.  Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll.  'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.


Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.

[The Red Mage]

If you're using Knockdown more than one attempt per round(your first roll), you're doing it wrong.

[trylobyte]

Oct 19, 2014 23:29:47 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

If you're using Knockdown more than one attempt per round(your first roll), you're doing it wrong.

I've actually done this against people where I know they have a low AC and average Discipline, since I can take the -4 penalty (I'm hitting them anyway) and I'm forcing a Discipline check each attack.  It's the warrior equivalent of a mage fishing for ones, just not as commonly-used.  I'll also sometimes do it against people I've already knocked down (esp. people with tons of dex-or-or-dodge-based AC like rogues, archers, or especially monks) to keep them down for as long as possible.

[Edge]

I'm not sure that works, as using KD on an already-down opponent doesn't increase the duration. I suppose it's a good way to make sure the first roll once they get up is a KD attempt though.

[Garage Trashcan]

Oct 20, 2014 6:25:26 GMT -5 Edge said:

I'm not sure that works, as using KD on an already-down opponent doesn't increase the duration. I suppose it's a good way to make sure the first roll once they get up is a KD attempt though.

It doesn't increase it, it refreshes it.

Red Mage used to DM a PvP server (where I was brought over from) so he is familiar with all forms of PvP cheese.

Trylo also missed spamming disarm...because people actually take that, y'know?

[The Red Mage]

Nah, it's still not good. If you use knockdown on your first attack per round(or last if you're hasted), you'll keep them knocked down on cooldown. Using it more than once per round is just wasting potential dps.

A level 16 fighter may have 30 AB unbuffed. A level 16 opponent may have 42 AC unbuffed but no discipline. If the level 16 fighter is using knockdown every attack per round, they are giving up one attack per round for free when they could at least be rolling to do damage.

30/25/20/15 against 42 becomes
26/21/16/11 if you're spamming.

This problem gets worse when you consider expertise is really common. The only benefit to using knockdown on maybe the second attack per round too is AB/AC are really inflated on the server while discipline can be impossible to match. Meaning if you don't chase AB inflation with AC stacking, you'll never resist a knockdown roll passed level 12, likely.

TLDR; At mid to high levels, if you can actually hit someone passed their AC here, you're pretty much guaranteed to beat their discipline.

[SOC_Tessa]

What if you have Improved Knockdown? Doesn't that effectively negate the -4 penalty and thus cause any potential loss in damage while spamming it to be a wash?

The discipline issue isn't server specific. It was a poorly handled way to handle combat maneuvers and I swear BioWare only implemented it the vanilla design so that fighter types had somewhere to stick their class skill points. I agree that past a certain point, it just doesn't keep up and you are better off relying on AC (and if your AC is higher than your Discipline, which it most certainly is, when you get hit you'll likely fail that check anyway). I always wondered why the itemization on caster items seem to uncommonly carry spellcraft modifiers (belts and robes), but very little of the tank type items offer discipline without it being an exclusive feature of the item. I'm not saying it should be easy to stack up, but it should at least keep up somewhat reasonably well with the AB/AC levels.

[Deleted]

Oct 19, 2014 23:19:33 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

One thing I'd propose, if these are to be mechanical fights, would be a limit or ban on certain well-known types of cheese.  House rules, if you will, in the interests of making the fights more fighty and less 'who presses the win button first.'  Some proposed guidelines (which I know shaft rogues a bit):

Don't spam HIPS.  It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against.  Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown.  Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight.  They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against.  Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith.  It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena.  A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity.  It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness.  It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything.  Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level.  Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll.  'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.


Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.

No.  No.  No.

Rather than all this, just ban scrolls and wands/rods/items with spells.

I am so tired of people calling HiPS and Knockdown cheesy, instead of being legitimate tactics.

[The Red Mage]

Improved Knockdown only removes body size advantage against knockdown. All playable races are the same size (ie: a Halfling doesn't need improved knockdown to knockdown a human without penalty). A Halfling and a human both with improved knockdown would roll the same against a Hill Giant, though where they would be immune to vanilla knockdown.

The suggestion was for spamming the ability, not using it. The server doesn't penalize using it like most other servers.

[The Nameless Bard]

Oct 20, 2014 11:39:34 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Oct 19, 2014 23:19:33 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

One thing I'd propose, if these are to be mechanical fights, would be a limit or ban on certain well-known types of cheese.  House rules, if you will, in the interests of making the fights more fighty and less 'who presses the win button first.'  Some proposed guidelines (which I know shaft rogues a bit):

Don't spam HIPS.  It's nigh-impossible to counter if the rogue is well-geared and has good timing, and very boring to watch and fight against.  Also prone to dragging out matches.
Don't spam Knockdown.  Once a round is probably fine, but making every single attack a Knockdown is probably overdoing it.
One Bigby hand per fight.  They're powerful spells with no save and at least two cannot be warded against.  Don't want the game becoming a Bigbyfest.
No Timestop. One successful Timestop means that a good mage will disable the entire enemy team.
No Word of Faith.  It's an AoE Blind with no save that's the size of the entire arena.  A cleric opening with this has no excuse for losing.
No Reverse Gravity.  It's a good-sized AoE save-or-no-fighting-for-you spell that doesn't do much damage and it takes forever waiting for those affected to actually land.
No Darkness.  It deprives the spectators of a good show if none of them can see anything.  Even with Ultravision the fights would be hard to follow.
No summons beyond your level.  Otherwise every mage and cleric will just pop a Gate scroll.  'No summons' might be a possible rule, if constraining.


Then we'd have occasional 'No Rules' matches where we just ignore all of these.

No.  No.  No.

Rather than all this, just ban scrolls and wands/rods/items with spells.

I am so tired of people calling HiPS and Knockdown cheesy, instead of being legitimate tactics.

Well, that depends.  HiPS is bad is you're doing it multiple times per round since spot/listen checks are only rolled once per round.  I'm not sure there are enough Spot/Listen items to match the Hide/MS items though, so it probably doesn't matter.


I've seen this style of match run extremely well in the past.  I'll show you what they used:

CHALLENGES
Fights are started by one fighter challenging another. Standard terms are assumed unless the fighters agree on something else.


STANDARD CHALLENGE TERMS
- Three magics only (or potions, wand charge, item spell etc)
- Magics cast on yourself only; buff/weapon/defense/healing/dmg shields etc
- No summons (or familiars, animal companions)
- No 9th circle spells (mostly for Shapechange)
- Player can use one RP Pause per match, use it wisely and strategically (see below)
- Fight til RP Yield or Death (Fray does provide raising)

Special considerations that count as one spell

- Bards. Bard Song
- Monks. Empty Body and Wholeness of Body
- Shifters. Shape change


BEGINNING FIGHTS
- Fights being with Darkness spell cast from a scroll (3 rounds)
- Spend the darkness time preparing, hiding, casting spells etc. (keeps people guessing)
- Fight begins once the darkness lifts
- Don't forget to hostile your opponent


ENDING FIGHTS
- Death is not usually the desired outcome (death if often RP'd as KO)
- If a character is Near Death and withdrawing let them go
- RP Yields should be respected (see below in Roleplaying Fights)


ROLEPLAYING FIGHTS
Easier said than done in most cases, but RP is encouraged before, after, and during fights. Keep things interesting. Use talk binds and voice emotes. If you're locked in a hack and slash, emote or talk smack; its meant to be a seedy affair. Part of the purpose of The Fray is to see if its possible to inject RP into and around PvP situations, and still keep things fun and flowing. We're going to experiment with using binds to help facilitate some RP. Help us figure it how best to do it!

Bind: "// OOC:Yield!"
Indicates submission, yielder forfeits match. Both combatants must cease attacks immediately. Yielder then must RP appropriately allowing victor his due. Hits may still land unintentionally after message so it may not always work out.

ex. *grunts dropping to one knee after the last mighty blow drove him down* Enough! I yield... this fight is yours.


Alternately combatants can agree to only fight to a particular wounded level (i.e. Badly Wounded or Near Death) prior to match, with loser emoting defeat.


Bind: "// OOC:RP Pause!"
Each combatant gets one RP Pause during match, to be used at discretion. Are meant to be used strategically. Once signaled, opponents must cease attack and back off to allow for RP message before fighting commences.

ex. *absorbs the impact of the strike rolling some distance away, smirks and rises dusting himself off* Good hit. I expect you think you have this in the bag. I beg to differ. *quickly quaffs his last potion*

ex. *sidesteps and ends up nearby breathing heavy* That all you got? Better say your prayers Orc. You're about to meet your god. *bull rushes back in*


Pauser initiates combat again by using spell/potion/item (at which point opponent may attack), or by emoting hostilities (must emote before clicking to attack to give opponent chance to ready as well).



DIRTY TRICKS
Dirty tricks can and should be used. These may or may not be noticed by Fray Overseers, or the gathered crowd and will be RP'd as seen fit. Could be overlooked, result in match forfeit, or even provoke hostility, be prepared. Typically if you see someone "cheating" and it could logically be hidden send them a tell and ask for opposing roll so others are not necessarily alerted.



SPICING THINGS UP
Fray Overseers may at any time intervene as they see fit to keep things entertaining. This may mean lobbing in a Choking Powder or Black Rock [dispel item], or simply calling for a break in the action for the fighters to catch their breaths and adjust strategy.

[onivel]

Oct 20, 2014 11:41:08 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

Improved Knockdown only removes body size advantage against knockdown. All playable races are the same size (ie: a Halfling doesn't need improved knockdown to knockdown a human without penalty). A Halfling and a human both with improved knockdown would roll the same against a Hill Giant, though where they would be immune to vanilla knockdown.

The suggestion was for spamming the ability, not using it. The server doesn't penalize using it like most other servers.

Pretty sure Halfling and Gnome are size category Small which gives them a 1 size differential against one of the other PC races. I know this is taken into account in what size weapons are used I would be pretty surprised if they bothered to account for such there that it was not accounted for in Knockdown. Though NWN does some pretty stupid things sometimes so maybe I am wrong.

Also I thought the size category wasn't in place to determine if you hit... it was given as a bonus or penalty to resist on the discipline roll ( ie bigger size opponents get bonus to resist and smaller get penalty to resist.

[SOC_Tessa]

Ah yes, I did cross my wires of thought. It is indeed a flat -4 on the attack roll and the size category is purely to determine how hard it is to resist via a discipline check (+-4 per difference in size, and unable to knock down opponents more than one size category above you). Improved bumps up what you can knock down and makes it easier to knock down what you already could. Didn't mean to derail things with spread of misinformation, carry on.

[dom101]

Better yet why don't we just make it a popularity contest; two characters enter, then the audience votes and the loser gets laughed at on the forums whilst the winner gets the Dubya.

I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right?  So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28.  It makes the most canonical sense, right?

/sarcasm

These aren't fights to the death, they are to the knockout.  The last team with a member standing gets the win.  As far as Trylo's restrictions are concerned, that's where my suggestion which depends on the team to be balanced.  2 level 20's against 2 level 12's; well the team with the 20's will be given handicaps to make it more even and entertaining.  There's no need for judges; the team owners will work with Bass to determine rulings as is fair.  If a team owner wants a promoter or financier then they're welcome to have such.

Once the team owners posted in Original post have messaged me with their team names, I'll start a new thread for the draft.

[The Nameless Bard]

Oct 20, 2014 13:56:05 GMT -5 dom101 said:

Better yet why don't we just make it a popularity contest; two characters enter, then the audience votes and the loser gets laughed at on the forums whilst the winner gets the Dubya.

I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right?  So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28.  It makes the most canonical sense, right?

/sarcasm

I know this may blow you away, but my post was not malicious in any way whatsoever.  Sorry for posting something I've seen work in the past.  Nothing you said even remotely applies to what I said either.  Their method was simply to add a bit more flavour into PvP situations (they are still mechanical PvP battles), which clearly you're not interested in, which is also fine.  Personally, if I can steal from somewhere that has done something with success in the past, then I'll do it.  

There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:

"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."

A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.  

[dom101]

Oct 20, 2014 14:16:21 GMT -5 The Nameless Bard said:

Oct 20, 2014 13:56:05 GMT -5 dom101 said:

Better yet why don't we just make it a popularity contest; two characters enter, then the audience votes and the loser gets laughed at on the forums whilst the winner gets the Dubya.

I mean, clearly there's no reason to rely on mechanics that way, right?  So even a level 3 has a chance to beat a level 28.  It makes the most canonical sense, right?

/sarcasm

I know this may blow you away, but my post was not malicious in any way whatsoever.  Sorry for posting something I've seen work in the past.  Nothing you said even remotely applies to what I said either.  Their method was simply to add a bit more flavour into PvP situations (they are still mechanical PvP battles), which clearly you're not interested in, which is also fine.  Personally, if I can steal from somewhere that has done something with success in the past, then I'll do it.  

There are so many others ways you can talk to your fellow players rather than that kind of aggressive tone. How about:

"Hey man, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking to go a different direction."

A response like that, rather than a passive aggressive one goes a lot further to promoting cooperation with your fellow posters than slamming on me for no apparent reason.  

I actually wasn't referring to your post, that's why nothing I said remotely applied to what you said.