Remove OOC information

[dagesh]

trylobyte, would removing the CR/effects/class list on log in change your RP experience?  I ask the same of ThayanKnight.

edit: and if it did, how so?

[Not Batman]

I say we stop beating the dead horse with this topic. By the way, it's not a horse, that is a dog. Stop hitting it.

[dagesh]

*bangs both horse and dead*

Seeing as the topic continues to resurrect, I'd hardly call it completely dead.

[Garage Trashcan]

May 31, 2014 18:43:13 GMT -5 Not Batman said:

I say we stop beating the dead horse with this topic. By the way, it's not a horse, that is a dog. Stop hitting it.

At this point, I'm in agreement here. The admins have heard all of the sides of the argument and it's incredibly unlikely you will persuade anyone else to your side. Both sides have selfish arguments ("I am directly affected by this even though 95% of others haven't been") and more general arguments.

The admins will let us know when they come to a decision if they're going to change it or not. That, or just make a poll with no posting permissions and we can anonymously vote on the topic if that'll sway their decision at all.

[dagesh]

May 31, 2014 18:52:20 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

May 31, 2014 18:43:13 GMT -5 Not Batman said:

I say we stop beating the dead horse with this topic. By the way, it's not a horse, that is a dog. Stop hitting it.

At this point, I'm in agreement here. The admins have heard all of the sides of the argument and it's incredibly unlikely you will persuade anyone else to your side. Both sides have selfish arguments ("I am directly affected by this even though 95% of others haven't been") and more general arguments.

The admins will let us know when they come to a decision if they're going to change it or not. That, or just make a poll with no posting permissions and we can anonymously vote on the topic if that'll sway their decision at all.

It's easy to throw around percentages here even though I understand it's for rhetoric.  What you call "selfish" is in itself a generalization that what people want/expect from the CR (and other) changes is for selfish reasons.  I would wager that people arguing for or against is not so much selfish as it is for the betterment of the server.  I think we all know that it's up to the Admins but they themselves have said that they are not set in stone any any number of topics.  Thus a change as this is certainly open for dialogue and logical discussion.

So, having said that, if any oppose any changes to the CR/effects/whatnot, will it affect your RP?  This, in my opinion, is the crux.

[trylobyte]

May 31, 2014 14:19:12 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

3)  These systems we're looking at are very, very minor sources of metagaming.  I've played here for, mm, 3 years now and I've only very rarely seen people metagame the challenge rating or stuff from the login screen.  Most of the stuff that gets metagamed comes from descriptions, bios, character journals, or OOC communication between players.  Whether a DM made an OOC comment during a quest that people took IC to give someone they don't like a hard time, someone in Skype alerts another player to a quest, prompting them to log in and show up, or a friend sends another friend a tell gossipping about someone in the Square, this is where most of that OOC information originates.  If you really want to see this in action, leave the CR and login screen in place but blank all descriptions, block all tells, and delete the whole character biography forum.  I bet you then that metagaming will be VERY rare.

4)  Not all accusations of metagaming are correct.  Expanding on Thayan's point would be the rumors around his Banite cleric.  One of my characters definitely thinks he is, and if people ask her about the subject she'll tell them she thinks he is.  He could call me out and accuse me of metagaming, because he's never done anything to directly prove to her that he is a Banite...  but he would be wrong, as she's collected enough circumstantial evidence to strongly suspect him of being one.  Her reasons for calling him such are entirely in-character and can be (and have been) explained using entirely in-character logic and events.  So not all metagaming accusations are even accurate so much as someone inadvertently or deliberately pulling the 'metagame' card to avoid ICly-acquired knowledge from being used against them.

I'm quoting these because I think people are ignoring them entirely, and together they make the basis for my argument against this.  There are a few people in this thread who are exaggerating to an extreme about how serious they perceive this problem is and how much the proposed solution will help.  Well, let me talk to you from experience.  I'm on a server where CR is hidden and so is the stuff on the login screen.  Metagaming is rampant.  The only practical effects those changes had are that friends who all know each other get in groups much faster than random guys because asking around for classes while staying IC is a pain in the arse, and those friends always know they're in the appropriate level range for wherever they're going.

The most destructive, most damaging, and most frustrating forms of metagaming all come from OOC interaction between other players.  Hiding a few numbers isn't going to do much beyond inconvenience people.  What are you so afraid of?  Challenge ratings?  What do those apply to, PvP?  I haven't seen meaningful PvP on CD since 2011.  Scared people will know your class?  Why?  Because a few people might treat you a bit differently?  So what?  There's a million things that might affect another character's perception of yours.  It might not be their class, god, or level, but their attitude, behavior, or appearance that causes someone else to not like them.

It's a bit like the vampires at the end of Carpe Jugulum.  If you're afraid of metagaming and you know all the forms it can take, everything looks like metagaming.

(Edit:  This took a while to type, in between interruptions.)

[trylobyte]

May 31, 2014 19:06:39 GMT -5 dagesh said:

So, having said that, if any oppose any changes to the CR/effects/whatnot, will it affect your RP?  This, in my opinion, is the crux.

Will it affect my current RP?  No.  Will it affect future RP?  Yes.  Or more accurately, it will affect opportunities for future RP.  I'm gonna admit that yes, I metagame.  How?  I tend to flip through the character list and look for low-level mages, especially sorcerers, and make a note of their name.  That way when I'm on Aelie and I see them, I can strike up roleplay with them knowing there's already a common avenue of conversation.  Otherwise I might just ignore them and continue talking with someone else, or just observing.  But since I Know their level and class, I'm more willing to approach them knowing that there are mutual topics that can be discussed.  If there's an influx of new players lately, I will also sometimes look for people on very low-level characters (3-4) and send them a tell to greet them, say Hello, and offer assistance.

[The Red Mage]

May 31, 2014 19:12:13 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

May 31, 2014 19:06:39 GMT -5 dagesh said:

So, having said that, if any oppose any changes to the CR/effects/whatnot, will it affect your RP?  This, in my opinion, is the crux.

Will it affect my current RP?  No.  Will it affect future RP?  Yes.  Or more accurately, it will affect opportunities for future RP.  I'm gonna admit that yes, I metagame.  How?  I tend to flip through the character list and look for low-level mages, especially sorcerers, and make a note of their name.  That way when I'm on Aelie and I see them, I can strike up roleplay with them knowing there's already a common avenue of conversation.  Otherwise I might just ignore them and continue talking with someone else, or just observing.  But since I Know their level and class, I'm more willing to approach them knowing that there are mutual topics that can be discussed.  If there's an influx of new players lately, I will also sometimes look for people on very low-level characters (3-4) and send them a tell to greet them, say Hello, and offer assistance.

Oh, come on. =p That's like saying no roleplay happens without metagaming. That's certainly not the case. Through roleplaying you can easily learn who is a mage and through roleplay you can figure out their relative power. It doesn't need to be the other way around.

[trylobyte]

Sure, I can, but it makes it easier if I already have some idea who to talk to.  It's not a binary issue, like people seem to be trying to make it.  It is, like I said, a convenience.

[Atomic Twinkie]

I put it to you that it is better, for the sake of RP integrity, that your character and their character discovers each other's capabilities through RP unless you wish to allow each other the OOC knowledge of classes.

[ClockworkMayhem]

May 31, 2014 19:12:13 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

May 31, 2014 19:06:39 GMT -5 dagesh said:

So, having said that, if any oppose any changes to the CR/effects/whatnot, will it affect your RP?  This, in my opinion, is the crux.

Will it affect my current RP?  No.  Will it affect future RP?  Yes.  Or more accurately, it will affect opportunities for future RP.  I'm gonna admit that yes, I metagame.  How?  I tend to flip through the character list and look for low-level mages, especially sorcerers, and make a note of their name.  That way when I'm on Aelie and I see them, I can strike up roleplay with them knowing there's already a common avenue of conversation.  Otherwise I might just ignore them and continue talking with someone else, or just observing.  But since I Know their level and class, I'm more willing to approach them knowing that there are mutual topics that can be discussed.  If there's an influx of new players lately, I will also sometimes look for people on very low-level characters (3-4) and send them a tell to greet them, say Hello, and offer assistance.

You can greet an unfamiliar player logging onto the server without metagaming. You can offer them assistance without metagaming. You know what was hardest for me starting here? Not finding dungeons. Not learning what was where - exploring the server helped me to get that. But what I needed help with were things like what certain widgets you were given were for, how to use certain commands that are apparently unique to this server (or at least not part of the game as it's packaged). THESE are things I couldn't find out through roleplay. Everything else, I could.

Also, checking for their level so you can take them under your wing? To me, that breaks the suspension of disbelief. Let's say you work a job that requires a very specific skill. You're very good at your job; you could even be considered an expert. Someone new is hired at your company. You've never met them before - they just moved to your town, you know nothing about them other than their name, because they told you that. Is your first assumption, "Well, they're new here, so they must be significantly less skilled than I am - I should teach them everything I know"? I should hope you wouldn't make that assumption, as that would put a big strain on your workplace relationships - particularly if said person was, say, an expert in your field who happened to have been given a better offer from your company than his or her last one. I feel that the "Oh, I've never seen this person in Arabel before, so they clearly must be some weakling newb" attitude (both in character and out) to be more than a little like this. It may not seem that big of a deal to some, but to me, it's a lot like using the CR to decide how your character would react to another player. Their description says they're well-muscled, intimidatingly tall, and very broody - the kind of person you'd hesitate to screw around with. Their CR says "effortless." So which do more players react to? From what I've seen, the CR. That's only one example, before anyone starts in on, "Well, my character would NEVER be intimidated by some muscled brute." That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the point.

[dagesh]

The most destructive, most damaging, and most frustrating forms of metagaming all come from OOC interaction between other players.  Hiding a few numbers isn't going to do much beyond inconvenience people.  What are you so afraid of?  Challenge ratings?  What do those apply to, PvP?  I haven't seen meaningful PvP on CD since 2011.

This is the gist of what I am saying.  Since you do not find the display of such things very important (see above; i.e. mere inconvenience and PvP hasn't been meaningful) than wouldn't those players who find such changes integral be considered more so?  So if hiding things doe not bother you, why make it any big deal overall? Secondly, perhaps PvP might be more meaningful here since it hasn't been so during the course of revealing CR and such.

The question remains the same: will this change affect your RP.  According to you, trylobyte, unless I am mistaken, the answer is no. Am I wrong?

[ThayanKnight]

However it isn't always possible to find the information out IC. In the case of evil people in a LG society, oocinformation is necessary for organizing without announcing affiliations.

[Atomic Twinkie]

But we're not saying nobody should give any OOC information ever - in fact we're trying to get negative OOC information sources removed - not trying to make a rule against willfully sharing OOC knowledge with others.

[Garage Trashcan]

May 31, 2014 19:23:22 GMT -5 Atomic Twinkie said:

I put it to you that it is better, for the sake of RP integrity, that your character and their character discovers each other's capabilities through RP unless you wish to allow each other the OOC knowledge of classes.

And some of us are very, very lazy, and unmotivated, or don't particularly enjoy the "awkward introduction" RP. You meet so many new characters and some of us have made many many more, the introduction stuff can get boring. Sometimes it's easier to just jump to, "Hey, do you like XYZ, 'cause I do," and you know you'll get something out of it instead of just, "No, not really."

Should we just not play at all because we're lazy? Because we're polluting other people's sense of RP integrity? If that were the case, I could list a couple prominent players who regularly disrupt my immersion and pollute my sense of RP integrity, and I have pretty low standards as is, due to my general apathy and laziness when it comes to things (I'm generally too lazy/exhausted to play my more intensive characters, like Merriwether.)

With the question at hand, yes, it has the potential to affect my RP if it's removed. Yes, this may be because I'm lazy and jaded. But if I see someone is a Ranger/Cleric/Barbarian/Whatever, that I haven't met before, that may determine who I log on to interact with them and may result in a more interesting, fulfilling interaction. Sure, I could just meet them twice, but I might as well min/max my character's social lives, too >.>

People have different standards. People have different preferences. Different environments require different managements. I've enjoyed my interactions, both IC and OOCly with some of the main advocates of removing CR/Classes/ListPCs levels. But what some of this is coming off as, at least to me (and this might just be hostile attribution bias kicking in) is some Holier than Thou, "My standards are higher and better and therefore should be adhered to and enforced on everyone so the quality of RP is improved." This is likely just me not understanding because I've never really been negatively affected by it, but I find it hard to understand how people can't just... not care. If people are going to judge you/your characters for something they see on the log-in screen, that is their mistake. They don't get the joy of getting to know your character. If this was more of an issue, I'm sure there'd be a consensus as to eliminating all of these. But the number of severe instances of metagaming have not come from this information, and in the 8 years the server's been going, that number is likely still less than 5. If 1 or 2 people are ignoring you because your character is secretly a vampire, there's 18 other people on to interact with, or you'll get much more enriching interactions from the people you already associate with.

/rant

I will now refrain from posting in this thread further.