Remove OOC information

[ClockworkMayhem]

May 31, 2014 22:58:09 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

No one is arguing what is vs. what isn't metagaming. This was supposed to be about the pros vs. cons of removing CR, etc. CR is still important for PvE because, while all us old players know roughly the level-ranges of all the dungeons, new players don't. It can sometimes be frustrating to just go around exploring and die over and over simply because you didn't know that orc was actually a lot stronger than you thought it was. In PnP, a DM can give you a description of just how tough something looks, compared to you. DMs aren't constantly around to do that here, so if you're new and wandering alone, you can back off or say, "...I wonder if..." and then die horribly of your own accord, not because of lack of knowledge. If that's immersion-breaking for PvE...well, why are you examining the creature in the first place if you're not going to learn anything from it if it's not there?

No one is going to disagree that metagaming CR in player interactions happens. It does. The big debate going on right now is how common is it actually? As I and others have stated before, it seems like it's being blown out of proportion. What we're seeing here is a couple of isolated cases that should be easily dealt with (Talk with the player, figure out what's going on, if they're being a dick then who gives a shit anymore and move on with your fun and your life; or if it's more severe get the staff involved).

We were beating a dead horse the first time it was brought up. No new opinions are being shared here. You're not going to change anyone's mind. You can't force your standards upon someone else. If you could, the United States's political system wouldn't be so incredibly flawed. If the overall community feels that it should be more laid-back in regards to harmless metagaming, with the rare harmful metagaming as a side effect, then so be it. There's no reason to keep fighting it. The same thing goes the other way, if we decide to eliminate the possibility of ALL metagaming, then so be it. At that point you can decide enjoy yourself and get on, or move on to somewhere else if it bothers you that much.

I've played on and off here in part because of RL stuff coming up and in part because of decisions on the server, attitudes, playerbase, etc., and I've said the same thing about the XP system when people have complained (this is one example of something being slowly, drastically changed over the years to be more lenient). If you don't like it, if it bothers you THAT much and you can't get past it and just enjoy yourself, then why are you playing here? Calm down, relax, have fun, and stop caring. That's the best advice I can give. When you stop caring about what other people are doing and just focus on your own fun, it's so much easier to enjoy yourself.

First of all, I want to thank FireWraith for his post, because it is good to know that, agreeing or disagreeing, the staff does at least acknowledge our opinions and weigh in on them.

Now for the quoted above.

First of all, I don't really check the CR of monsters in PvE. I find out quickly enough if I can kill them or not by trying to. If you lost XP when you died (and I'm told that's the norm on most servers), then I could understand being too frustrated with it to bother. But since I've never lost XP for dying, here, I don't see how this is relevant.

Secondly, as I noted, the CR issue has happened a few times to me, and to other players that I've observed. And yes, it was mildly irritating, and we discussed it amongst ourselves, and decided to let it go - but in a discussion like this, where the topic is raised, I think it appropriate to contribute one's experiences (even if in a vague manner to avoid hurt feelings). I'm not angry; I'm not having a fit. I'm voicing an opinion. If you can do so, I think it perfectly valid for anyone else to, as well.

As for "beating a dead horse" and "why am I playing here" if I "can't get past" the metagaming? Okay. First of all, that came off as a bit offensive. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, and so I'm not going to assume you were being deliberately insulting, but let's try looking at it from another perspective.

When you were new here, did you read every single post on the forum? These forums, from what I've been told, are new. Which means, in a server as old as this one is (I've heard people talking about being here at least 5+ years, but I don't know how old it is, really), there are a LOT of posts. If this one is new, and the general forum already exceeds a thousand, I think this is an unreasonable expectation. Also, being new does mean that these issues that are old for you  are new for some of us. So if we don't like something about the server, which we are enjoying over all, are we supposed to not voice our opinions? Are we not supposed to make suggestions that certain things be changed, and then defend our argument, simply because you've seen the argument before? Things don't change when you passively accept them - and comparing this server to the US government was more than a little silly. So far, my experiences here have shown that the staff does, over all, try to be helpful and considerate, even if we don't always agree on something. It's entirely possible that the issue I have may never change - but have I said once that it means that I can't get past it? If I couldn't, I would not be here.

[Not Batman]

It should be stated that it is also impossible to get a firm idea of what a character is capable of only by knowing their level and classes. What makes or breaks a characters effectiveness is limited to one thing, the player. All of this information means nothing if you do not know the skill of the person on the other side of the keyboard, both in PvP and RP. Also, you know their class layout, not their AC, skills, feats, BAB, inventory, abilities, yadda yadda.

[trylobyte]

So.  I'm fine with removing the effects list.  Nobody really uses that.  The only things I've ever used it for was to see what some monsters were immune to after they resisted something someone tried to cast ('Oh, they're immune to mind spells').  No loss there.

While I don't want to see the login menu stuff removed, I'd be fine with giving it a try to see if it affects anything.

[Garage Trashcan]

I could also support the removal of the effects list. Even with my ever-curious self, I can't think of any purpose this actually serves for PvE that you can't easily figure out otherwise.

ClockworkMayhem, I'm glad you didn't take my post offensively, since that's not what I meant. More practical and realist than anything else, if particularly blunt. I'd rather someone find their variety of fun elsewhere than be frustrated with a system currently in place (people STILL complain leveling is too slow >.>). It's simply a matter of sometimes peoople/servers aren't perfect matches for each other and yeah, sometimes little things that bother you can be hard to ignore (I'm particularly stubborn and won't even really try other servers because I'm so set in my ways here).

I wasn't comparing people persuading the admins similar to the US Government, I was comparing it to people persuading other people. If you go to a coffee shop and have a debate about abortion, gay marriage, economics, etc., it's very, very rare you'll be able to convince the person you're debating with their opinions needs changing. Personally, I find these situations very frustrating and uncomfortable for that very reason. At times I'm not particularly great from separating debate-frustration with actual frustration in the friendship/relationship, so that's why I'm saying this is a dead horse, even if it's not. That's why I keep trying to "check out" (lolselfcontrol). We all have a lot more fun when we're not ranting along like this. We've all voiced our opinions and our experiences, and at this point it's just reiteration after reiteration (myself included, maybe I just suck at debating). Hell, I've even conceded and agree with the removal of 2 things now (Still think CRs and ListPCs levels should stay). Just because you don't use those resources, doesn't mean other people shouldn't have access to them.

(P.S. Let me know when you're actually done with Skin Game. Would love to talk about it more.)

[Arya]

Jun 1, 2014 8:01:05 GMT -5 Garage Trashcan said:

I wasn't comparing people persuading the admins similar to the US Government, I was comparing it to people persuading other people. If you go to a coffee shop and have a debate about abortion, gay marriage, economics, etc., it's very, very rare you'll be able to convince the person you're debating with their opinions needs changing. Personally, I find these situations very frustrating and uncomfortable for that very reason. At times I'm not particularly great from separating debate-frustration with actual frustration in the friendship/relationship, so that's why I'm saying this is a dead horse, even if it's not. That's why I keep trying to "check out" (lolselfcontrol). We all have a lot more fun when we're not ranting along like this. 

Pretty much summarises my thoughts on the topic right now.  I am glad it is not as heated as it was just twelve hours ago.  And while it could have been IRL stress on my part complicating matters, it just really started to feel like the thread became very, very aggressive.

There are a number of things that I would like to see on the server (and no, less ECL or elves or whatever is not amongst them).  But not all of the things I would like to see, would become implemented easily.  So, I try to look at the positives, if anything.  I have been on a number of servers, including social servers - so I can see just how 'bad' things can get on other servers.  While this place is certainly not perfect, and I will still butt heads with the admins at times (and I have met/known them IRL, so none of it is ill), I still consider this server my home.  And want to do all I can to make others feel welcomed.  If there is anything that I can do, as a player hoping to return to full-fledged staff soon, I am interested in knowing, even if the feedback might hurt a little. I know for myself that it is the attitude of the playerbase that generally makes the server its worthwhile more than the content (even if fluff is rather nice when faced with more PvP/CvC oriented characters/players).  Whenever I left here in the past, it was often due to the common and/or encouraged attitude that the community as a whole took (with exceptions).  Or having a group coming in who goes out of their way to be snooty to others they do not believe fit their fantasy of how things 'should be.'  

At this point, I am just hoping the summer will not bring too much of a nasty fall out.  It is prone to make some seasonal-affected sorts irritable or more anxious, and I notice a lot more fluctuation around that time. <.<  Some of it even starting in the spring, depending on the year.  I already notice some tension in the air.  Even stuff not in the forums.  

Sincerely,
Arya

[The Red Mage]

It's all in your head!

[Darvins]

A further reason not to remove CR's is I think actually it can be used to help a person get a feel for the person they are talking to, sure you won't know exactly what they can do, but there is going to be something about a character like say Aelie, who has gone up against the Shadow Dragon of Tilverton, faced some god thing from between the gaps of reality, and more, that you can just tell when you see them that frankly, this person is beyond you. Something about the way they carry them self, the easy confidence they have even when in the midst of the freaks of Arabel. That frankly Jim who got of the boat two months ago, and has faced a few Orcs in their time, simply won't have yet. No offence Jim.

That or said characters just have a rep, that you hear about as your walking down the street. 'That Crazy sorceress Aelie, I heard she blew up a small town yesterday!'

That small thing you can't quite place that lets you know when your facing someone that has frankly seen things you wouldn't believe.

((no offence to Try hope they dinnay mind me stealing Aelie there))

[ClockworkMayhem]

To use your example, Aelie's reputation is well-enough known in character that a CR isn't going to tell anyone anything that square gossip (or Aelie herself) does not.

CR rating doesn't give you a feel for who you're talking to, at all - it just tells you whether or not they have a shot at kicking your ass (and even that isn't entirely accurate). Talking to people? That gives you a feel for who you're talking to. Adventuring with them and seeing the things they can do? That gives you a feel for who you're talking to, and it's all in character. Eliminates the need for something so artificial as a CR rating.

[Darvins]

Jun 1, 2014 16:49:35 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

To use your example, Aelie's reputation is well-enough known in character that a CR isn't going to tell anyone anything that square gossip (or Aelie herself) does not.

CR rating doesn't give you a feel for who you're talking to, at all - it just tells you whether or not they have a shot at kicking your ass (and even that isn't entirely accurate). Talking to people? That gives you a feel for who you're talking to. Adventuring with them and seeing the things they can do? That gives you a feel for who you're talking to, and it's all in character. Eliminates the need for something so artificial as a CR rating.

And I would disagree to an extent, you can tell something about someone like that, the way they carry themself. To give an example years ago, I and a friend lived in a area, went to the same places, had a similar routine. We walked the same streets, at the same times. i got mugged twice on those streets, he never was. The difference between me and him? He was on a national team for Martial Arts, and carried himself with a confidence that I couldn't. He Knew walking down those streets that no one would win out if they messed with him, and people could sense that. Couldn't even put it into words but they knew it.

[trylobyte]

If the CR rating isn't accurate (and it's not; a good level 10 HiPS Rog/SD can kill just about anybody in PvP) then why are we so worried about it?

[Not Batman]

Jun 1, 2014 17:17:48 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

If the CR rating isn't accurate (and it's not; a good level 10 HiPS Rog/SD can kill just about anybody in PvP) then why are we so worried about it?

THIS! +1!

CR and ECL are the biggest travesties of the 3.X system. Gods, I'd remove them from the damn game if I was allowed. Replace them with a system that actually bloody works. This topic is literally just going in circles. The dog is a hole in the ground now.

[ClockworkMayhem]

First, to address Darvins:

CR doesn't indicate how you carry yourself. RP does. Why? Well, someone five levels higher than you is rated impossible, correct? If that is the case, a level 6 is impossible to a level 1. That level 6 is still practically a baby in terms of the power of characters in the server...but somehow, in a few weeks, he just carries himself better than that level 1? Sorry, that doesn't jive.

Now for Trylo:
Because it influences people to metagame, anyway, consciously or unconsciously. I didn't walk into any trap, here - I've been aware the entire time that yes, CR rating doesn't always accurately portray a character's ability or lack of it to kick in your teeth. But it does influence the behavior of a character artificially, and I believe it shouldn't. The strength of your roleplay, the portrayal of your character as that kind of person who carries themselves that kind of way? That should influence it. If you roleplay your character as being incredibly intimidating, THAT should be the deterrent to PvP - not, "Oh, shit, he's impossible! I better not press his buttons."

[Darvins]

And yes to use your own example, there is a huge difference between a level 1 and a level 6. Or between a level 3 and a level 8 one that frankly would be noticable. Further want to know what the most common thing I've seen over the years, is new characters who come in and start poking the epics, knowing nothing can be done to them in return. Who will ignore the fact that as a level six they are cheeking and insulting the level 20+ and just don't care, because they feel immune to what that person could do to them in response. I've seen it far more often done that way, where the new character will come in and claim to have seen and done it all already, than anything that might be done in reverse. It has nothing to do with CR, and frankly my view is, if I don't believe something is a problem don't change it.

The powerful character's don't need to check the CR rating to feel confident they can beat most people up, they already know it.

To be frank PvP here is pointless anyway so don't worry about it, PvP achieves nothing for the most part.

[Garage Trashcan]

Jun 1, 2014 17:31:39 GMT -5 Not Batman said:

Jun 1, 2014 17:17:48 GMT -5 trylobyte said:

If the CR rating isn't accurate (and it's not; a good level 10 HiPS Rog/SD can kill just about anybody in PvP) then why are we so worried about it?

THIS! +1!

CR and ECL are the biggest travesties of the 3.X system. Gods, I'd remove them from the damn game if I was allowed. Replace them with a system that actually bloody works. This topic is literally just going in circles. The dog is a hole in the ground now.

Welcome to Pathfinder, where everyone is ECL0.

[dagesh]

My hin would love to appear effortless to everyone.