Poll - What is your opinion on exotic races?

[SOC_Tessa]

That's exactly what I modeled, though?

If 2/4 is the rate of xp acquisition at level 2 for an ECL+2, they need 4/2 more xp than usual, or 4000 (2000x4/2).
If 3/5 is the rate of xp acquisition at level 3 for an ECL+2, they need 5/3 more xp than usual, or 5000 (3000x5/3).
If 4/6 is the rate of xp acquisition at level 4 for an ECL+2, they need 6/4 more xp than usual, or 6000 (4000x6/4).
And so on.

Effectively the way it is scripted is an ECL is "level shifted". Since the actual experience is not adjustable on a character-by-character basis, the scripted in "experience adjustment" is so you are effectively still earning the xp you would need were you actually that higher level.

It may say you need 2000 more xp to level at level 2, but you effectively need to earn 4000.

---

Interesting about the level 1 oddity, but wouldn't it have been 1/5 under the formula presented, not 1/16?

It would suck to get low experience from monster kills, but you are effectively level 5, after all? Probably an issue because of the xp scaling, but if you hunted the same monster as a "normal" level 5, wouldn't it give out the same "1 xp per kill".

[trylobyte]

This is more of a question to Edge, but, don't you think that instead of expanding the Standard Seven, CD might just be developing its own Standard Seven?  Instead of human, elf, half-elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, half-orc, we sort've have human, elf, half-elf, halfling (maybe), dragon-blood, fiend-blood, drow.   With dwarf occasionally becoming a flavor of the month then disappearing again.

[Edge]

Fire Wraith: Hey I'm not the one who complained about that. The one Kara-Turan weapon-using character I made was her own dang blacksmith.

This is more of a question to Edge, but, don't you think that instead of expanding the Standard Seven, CD might just be developing its own Standard Seven? Instead of human, elf, half-elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, half-orc, we sort've have human, elf, half-elf, halfling (maybe), dragon-blood, fiend-blood, drow. With dwarf occasionally becoming a flavor of the month then disappearing again.

Kind of like how 4E tried to shake it up by removing Gnome and Half-Orc and replacing them with Tiefling and 4E Dragonborn?

[ClockworkMayhem]

Sept 30, 2014 16:50:39 GMT -5 Edge said:

Yeah they can be pretty tricky.

A good way to get into their mindset is to read stories that star them. The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher - primarily Summer Knight, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, Small Favor, and Cold Days - stars several fey, both lowly and powerful, as major characters. And the October Daye series by Seanan McGuire is completely set in a fey-side view of modern North America from the perspective of a changeling woman.

I'm a hardcore Dresden Files fangirl, and loved, loved, LOVED the way fey were represented in the series. I take a little bit of that into account when playing my fey, but also use a lot of fey lore from various cultures. I play her not for the bonuses (there honestly aren't many), but more because I love fey and the concepts that can go into their creation and personalities.

And on an semi-unrelated note - I met Jim Butcher at Dragon*Con. Had my pic taken with him, and he signed my copy of Skin Game. I thought I was gonna pass out. Never been so happy to wait in line for two hours in my life.

[Fire Wraith]

No, it would be 1/16th, because you're trying to cram 16000xp into 1000xp, because you're not just going from 1+4=5 to 2+4=6, you're covering the entire span from 0 to 16,000, which is the xp that an ECL+4 character would need to earn 2nd level in a regular game.

And yes, if you hunted level 5 stuff, it would give you the regular level 5 xp... but also at 1/16th the normal rate, so you'd likely not see much difference. You're also going to have a very hard time killing it, because your stats do not make up for those 4 levels worth of hp, AB, feats, etc.

[Edge]

Sept 30, 2014 23:34:43 GMT -5 ClockworkMayhem said:

Sept 30, 2014 16:50:39 GMT -5 Edge said:

Yeah they can be pretty tricky.

A good way to get into their mindset is to read stories that star them. The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher - primarily Summer Knight, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, Small Favor, and Cold Days - stars several fey, both lowly and powerful, as major characters. And the October Daye series by Seanan McGuire is completely set in a fey-side view of modern North America from the perspective of a changeling woman.

I'm a hardcore Dresden Files fangirl, and loved, loved, LOVED the way fey were represented in the series. I take a little bit of that into account when playing my fey, but also use a lot of fey lore from various cultures. I play her not for the bonuses (there honestly aren't many), but more because I love fey and the concepts that can go into their creation and personalities.

Yeah Shezzarin is in a similar boat, with some adlibbing as Killoren aren't really drawn from any specific real-world faerie lore. I also pulled pretty liberally from Dresden for my Kingmaker game that I'm running right now for my PnP group; the game would be significantly different without that experience and perspective to draw on, I'm sure.

And on an semi-unrelated note - I met Jim Butcher at Dragon*Con. Had my pic taken with him, and he signed my copy of Skin Game. I thought I was gonna pass out. Never been so happy to wait in line for two hours in my life.

Envy!

[SOC_Tessa]

Oct 1, 2014 0:49:30 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

No, it would be 1/16th, because you're trying to cram 16000xp into 1000xp, because you're not just going from 1+4=5 to 2+4=6, you're covering the entire span from 0 to 16,000, which is the xp that an ECL+4 character would need to earn 2nd level in a regular game.

Okay, that makes sense. I hadn't taken into consideration the "back payment" of levels 1-4.

If you were going to just "hand wave" those levels, though, why the decision not to just stick to the formula and 1/5 model (and just ignoring the first four levels of experience)? Not that starting at level 2 was a horrible compromise or anything, I'm just curious.

Edit: I actually thought it over and it was probably an adapted script from something already developed, so just skipping level 1 and all the exceptions was probably less hassle than reverse engineering?

[Vincent07]

Nope, Fire wrote the ECL adjustment himself, and we attached it into the PW XP system that I had previously tweaked for Myth Drannor.
It more or less works exactly as ECL does in PnP, but when starting at level 1, due to how the math works, as Fire pointed out, you mostly end up getting 1xp/kill.  Starting at level 2 was a compromise we made as having to slay 1000 rats just really sucks and is not fun (I did it more than once.)

But to otherwise clarify any other mechanical misunderstandings about ECL.  ALL parts of the xp system take your ECL into account, this includes xp gained from kills, the autofaery, DM rewards, scripted quest rewards, the soft RP cap at level 8, the ascension cap at level 20 and the hard cap at level 30.  
The merchant store tiers and custom ILR code also takes ECL into account.  
Really, the only thing that does not, is encounter spawns, as the default NWN encounter setup has no way of knowing you have an ECL.  Were I inclined to re-do all of our spawns with a custom system like NESS, perhaps that could change, but as I do not generally put in scaled encounters, this isn't really an issue anyway.
Loot ignores your level too, just to clarify that. The possible contents are based upon variables I set on the container, not upon who opens it.

[The Nameless Bard]

Oct 1, 2014 18:43:49 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

Were I inclined to re-do all of our spawns with a custom system like NESS

Someone's feeling ambitious.  It's actually a really good system once you learn what all the tags and switches can do.  

[SOC_Tessa]

Let me just sidetrack for a moment and say that I appreciate the systems in place being explained in detail. For those of us who hate being "in the dark", the transparency is refreshing (especially when I have played on servers where they closely guard any information about them like they're trade secrets or something).

[Fire Wraith]

My intent (as I originally scripted it) was they should have to go through and earn the same xp.  Unfortunately it doesn't work terribly well in practice...

Also, the 'spawning lower level stuff' mostly works against them, as it makes it harder to earn xp soloing (you spawn less/weaker stuff that doesn't earn as much as it would for a non-ECL), though groups help a lot with that. We've been trying to get away from dynamic NWN spawns, and sticking with static groups, since the treasure generated for an area is level agnostic, the spawns should be too.

Personally, I think the ECLs should all just start off at the same xp level relative to non-ECLs, quit whining, and get back to rat genocide. ^.^

[Edge]

I personally wouldn't have a major complaint if the higher-end ECLs started off at level 1 again. Most of them have something - DR, regen, etc. - that makes them near-impossible to kill for the few dungeons on CD intended for that level.

Granted, the monotony does get kind of boring. You pretty much have rats (and bandits), ants, and ghosts until you hit level 5 or 6 and can take on goblins. (And actually FINISHING the goblins tends to require a full party around level 8, due to the half-orcs in the latter half.) Dangit, now I'm considering making one or two lowbie dungeons to fill in that gap.

[dom101]

Oct 2, 2014 6:28:19 GMT -5 Edge said:

I personally wouldn't have a major complaint if the higher-end ECLs started off at level 1 again. Most of them have something - DR, regen, etc. - that makes them near-impossible to kill for the few dungeons on CD intended for that level.

Granted, the monotony does get kind of boring. You pretty much have rats (and bandits), ants, and ghosts until you hit level 5 or 6 and can take on goblins. (And actually FINISHING the goblins tends to require a full party around level 8, due to the half-orcs in the latter half.) Dangit, now I'm considering making one or two lowbie dungeons to fill in that gap.

Generally, someone that applies for and is accepted for an ECL has friends that they will inevitably fit in with IC'ly, which makes the level they start out at irrelevant.  In my opinion.  I wouldn't have minded starting out at 1 even when I was forced to level Bass for the most part, on his own.

[Garage Trashcan]

Oct 1, 2014 0:49:30 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

No, it would be 1/16th, because you're trying to cram 16000xp into 1000xp, because you're not just going from 1+4=5 to 2+4=6, you're covering the entire span from 0 to 16,000, which is the xp that an ECL+4 character would need to earn 2nd level in a regular game.

And yes, if you hunted level 5 stuff, it would give you the regular level 5 xp... but also at 1/16th the normal rate, so you'd likely not see much difference. You're also going to have a very hard time killing it, because your stats do not make up for those 4 levels worth of hp, AB, feats, etc.

So, just to clarify further, is there an explanation as to why ECLs still hit the soft cap at level 8 instead of X+ECL= 8? Sure, they get to 8 fairly slowly, but surprise, +4 is actually level 12 when they have to start earning RP XP.

[The Red Mage]

Please no lowbie dungeons. If your character manages to get into a run at the bandits or even Ogre Lord's out the gate with another group, you can pretty much just jump right to level 5-6.

We need more mid to epic level dungeons, imo. It's essentially this atm:

Sunken Keep
Bandits-> Maybe Ogre Cave
Wyvernspur Crypt
Ogre Lord's Redoubt
Frost Giants
Gnolls


The monotony may be broken by doing Bugbears or the Drow in the Semberholme or travelling to the Tower of Ruin or Lightning Peak, but I'd say those six definitely have a monopoly on dungeons right now for the majority of a character's lifespan while lower level dungeons are only ran a couple of times(aside from soloing goblins just for gold when a character can).

Edit: I have some notes in my DM log that have some insight into what players don't want to see more of in dungeons when I went around asking.