Dungeon Level Lock Labels

[spamtastic1979]

Couldn't the Guild Charter item itself be made into an unlimited times a day usable item that has a simple listing of the dungeons with the level limits? I don't think that would be incredibly hard to create would it?

[Deleted]

That would require another script, I think.

I'd rather see the dungeon guide as something listing dungeons by tier for appropriate levels.

[trylobyte]

Nov 15, 2016 12:15:10 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

You're partially correct.  You can hold loot up to one tier higher than your current tier.  This really is problematic because we only allowed the level 12-15 group to hold T4s because of the off chance of finding one in the dungeons that are designed for those levels.  You should not be trying to have a full set of gear ready to go the moment you can equip it.  You're supposed to gain the gear during the levels which you can equip it.  Quite honestly, we are more inclined to instead remove the ability to hold a tier higher of gear than move the dungeon locks.

And don't even get me started with the giving away of gear/twinking of friends.  (A rant for another topic, I'm afraid.)

Nov 15, 2016 22:03:15 GMT -5 Fire Wraith said:

You're basically arguing against one of the core design tenets, that people aren't supposed to be geared to the hilt at crazy low levels. Would it be nice if we could just trust people not to? Sure, it would. But we don't want to have to be policing it, and experience has told us time and again that if we don't put in restrictions, they -will- be violated, which ruins the experience for everyone else.

Nov 15, 2016 22:26:22 GMT -5 Edge said:

Actually, we are quite aware. Because to be quite frank, those players were exactly the kind of people who made us put these systems in in the first place. The kinds of people who would run their super-low-level friends through high-level dungeons at near-zero risk to get them high-level items. And while yes, the swift leveling-up of brand-new characters via this method was somewhat annoying, the main problem of it was the tagging-along of these low-level characters into high-level areas where they are utterly incapable of contributing to the challenge of the dungeon, and the utter imbalance caused by allowing them access to high-level equipment.

As FW said, we tried the route of trusting players to follow the item guidelines and, long story short, we got burned for it. So we're doing things the hard way now, and using scripts and rules to force cooperation, since the playerbase - or at least the more troublesome members in it - have proven that they can't be trusted to obey the rules without automated enforcement in place.

I'll let you in on a little secret, a bit of a glimpse into the Admin conversations. We have, repeatedly considered removing the ability to carry items above your tier, making it so you can't even OWN an item until you can equip it. Because the problem of high-level players acquiring gear for their low-level friends and kitting them out multiple levels in advance of them reaching the appropriate tier as well as the former problem of high-level players carting their low-level friends through powerful dungeons to acquire said items has gotten so rampant and all our attempts to curtail it have repeatedly failed.

(Edit:  Quotes have been provided for context.  I'm aware this seems sort of off-topic otherwise.)

Okay...  Bit of a moment of honesty...  And we all hate those, especially when coming from me.

What I'm seeing here is a disconnect between the admins' reasons and the players' complaints.  The players don't like being restricted as to what content they can run and the admins don't like the result of people getting loot before they're ready.  The players want the restrictions loosened while the admins want to tighten them up, for completely different reasons.

This is going to end badly.

While it's good to see the admins are taking the loot problem seriously, because it is a problem, this is the wrong way to do it.  It took me two minutes of thinking to find multiple ways that level 16/20 characters can still kit themselves out in full purple/orange within hours of going over the threshold, and let's be honest, level 16s and 20s are what we're worried about here.  And none of these ways are against the rules.

Ultimately, the problem isn't the fact that higher-level characters can take lower-level characters into dungeons.  The problem is that loot is too common.  A party can waltz into gnolls, run it once, and come out with an orange or two and several pages of purples.  They'll sell most of them to the shop where other characters can buy them.  Or they can hang onto the good ones and sell or gift them to other players, like some of us already do.  For the aspiring character, it'd be as simple as asking them to hold onto a few good items for when they hit the appropriate level then buying them for a perfectly fair sum of gold because money is not and has never been a problem for the dedicated dungeon-runner on CD (except for solo-heavy UMD-reliant characters, because scrolls and potions are expensive).  And that's also because of how common loot is.  The average gnoll run returns half a million gold and takes a good group half an hour.  The King's Forest orcs are extremely profitable and can be farmed by a decent party in blue gear.  Restricting what dungeons people can go into isn't going to solve the problem, all it's going to do is hinder new players who don't have the connections vets do and won't have anyone to sell them stuff when they hit the threshold levels.

So what I'm seeing, unfortunately, is a solution that will upset players without actually solving the problem.  And that's a lose-lose.  If you want to attack the problem attack it at the root and either make loot less plentiful in the first place or restrict the ability to trade loot.

[Arya]

I think people were initially discussing having items that can help people with dungeon crawls. If we want to discuss loot frequency and suggestions for that, maybe another thread for it?

Sincerely,
Arya

[trylobyte]

On the topic of an item telling us what the dungeons are and the level restrictions on such, I'd be supportive of having something like this ingame.  My only concern would be that the level bandings are somewhat arbitrary and may not reflect either the difficulty of the dungeon or the loot therein.  As an example, compare Wyvernspur Crypt (15-20) to Bloodfang Gnolls (20+) and most people I run with will tell you Wyvernspur is harder.  It's certainly a league above Ogre Lord's Redoubt (14-18) despite the two dungeons having similar loot and level banding.  We'd have to work together and collaborate to iron these kinks out before we start enforcing them as rules.

[lurkerabove]

Nov 15, 2016 22:48:29 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

What about an "Adventuring Guide" purchasable from the Eyes and Ears?  Something that breaks down by "what's appropriate for my skill?"

Yus, pls. Makes it a semi-IC resource.

[Vincent07]

Alright folks.  After giving all of this some thought, I have come up with an adjustment that the admins have agreed upon.

So, with my next update, the following changes are going to take place:

As a reference, the Dungeon List is: Here


Currently two groups on that list are locked down, the High and Epic dungeons. However, the level ranges, especially on the former tend to vary quite a bit, and there's just some inconsistencies throughout.
That in mind, as of my next update, the level lock for all dungeons in the High tier will be 12.  The level lock for all dungeons in the Epic tier will be 17.


Further, I am making some minor adjustments to the ILR code, specifically the carry limits, or level at which you can carry loot that is a tier above your current one.  Tier 4 (purple) items will now require level 14 to pick up.  Tier 5 (gold) items will require level 18.  


These two changes will allow more freedom in dungeon selection for mixed level groups, while also addressing the issue of lower levels building up kits of gear for the higher tiers.
As a final note, there is the possibility that one or two dungeons move around within that dungeon list, due to balance adjustments.  Any such changes will be reflected in my update logs as they occur.

[Arya]

Vince, I love your ideas. And it feels like a nice happy medium for some of the stuff brought up. Especially for addressing the concerns you wanted to address.

Initially I opposed item restrictions due to their inability to deal with DM story items. But as it seems that has been resolved, not an issue at all now!


Sincerely,
Arya

[Not Batman]

The presented solution is pretty much what I had suggested, but further streamlined. I like it.

[trylobyte]

I can get on board with this solution.  I've a few ideas on dungeons that could use a bump, and I'd like to get a group to try some others, but that's for another thread.

[Kymus]

Just to be sure...

My lvl 16 rogue has an orange belt (won it in an auction a long time ago mistaking the tiers). It's been sitting in his sack forever (because: ooops). I know he can't equip it, but will moving it in the inventory drop the item on the ground? I really don't have much need to move it; I just want to make sure it doesn't go kerlop on the ground

[Kymus]

More on topic, I like the changes that were decided on. While I tend to be way too introverted when I play (even when I try to play non-introverted characters), it's nice to have some more options when there is a bigger level imbalance between my level and a newer player that I may meet. I've never really had an issue with this in the past (because: introverted and need to be pushed a bit to talk to people) but I can understand why this is a bigger deal to others

[Vincent07]

Feb 8, 2017 16:59:46 GMT -5 Kymus said:

Just to be sure...

My lvl 16 rogue has an orange belt (won it in an auction a long time ago mistaking the tiers). It's been sitting in his sack forever (because: ooops). I know he can't equip it, but will moving it in the inventory drop the item on the ground? I really don't have much need to move it; I just want to make sure it doesn't go kerlop on the ground

If you are carrying gear currently and are then outside of pickup range on it after the next update, (18 for orange gear), that item will drop from your inventory on next login, unless I'm mistaken as to how the OnAccquire fires.

[Kymus]

Feb 8, 2017 17:16:58 GMT -5 Vincent07 said:

Feb 8, 2017 16:59:46 GMT -5 Kymus said:

Just to be sure...

My lvl 16 rogue has an orange belt (won it in an auction a long time ago mistaking the tiers). It's been sitting in his sack forever (because: ooops). I know he can't equip it, but will moving it in the inventory drop the item on the ground? I really don't have much need to move it; I just want to make sure it doesn't go kerlop on the ground

If you are carrying gear currently and are then outside of pickup range on it after the next update, (18 for orange gear), that item will drop from your inventory on next login, unless I'm mistaken as to how the OnAccquire fires.

Oooh ouch. Good to know. It's in a container, if that makes any difference at all.

Is there a way this can be removed from my inventory and given back later or otherwise some way that I can keep what I got or retrieve it when he hits the appropriate level?

[Deleted]

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