Milord and Milady in Cormyr - Breaking the Law?

[sinisteromnibus]

Okay, so in-character I've taken the objections to Nimuri's native custom of speaking and address in stride - as being in-character, but today things got a little ooc with it so I thought I'd seek some clarity - and attempt to grant it as well, since either I can't read (entirely possible) or there's a misconception about the laws of Cormyr and the differences in the nation and the one Nim is from.

So, first of all: as anyone who has rped with Nimuri at all knows, she addresses nearly everyone as 'milord' and 'milady' as a way of self-denigration and a recognition of another individual's superior social standing within the society of Cormyr. Nimuri is a foreigner (and has never claimed otherwise) and not only that she represents foreign interests, so it's very important for her to maintain her national pride (as in the merchant business a waning of this pride would be seen as weakness by both her employers and customers). In Amn there is no landed nobility like there is in Cormyr, so for her to claim a desire to maintain her nationality but then suddenly switch to Cormyr's social customs (particularly a social custom that Amn has no analog for) would both be a breach of character and just a tad unbelievable given how I've chosen to portray the character thus far. In Amn, the wealthiest merchant houses are the nobles, and because they change often it is not the houses themselves that are titled and respected but the wealth they represent. Thus, her culture recognizes anyone of higher social standing and demands that those of lowest social standing (which Nimuri is/was since she was a courtesan) address everyone as a superior who is not of lower social standing. Given that Nimuri is a foreigner in Cormyr her safest assumption is that any she meets is a social superior as in most cultures/societies it is better to err by attributing a higher social standing to someone than a lower one (better to call a peasant a lord than a lord a peasant, after all).

Now, all that stuff out of the way, here's my 2 issues that seem to keep popping up:

1. There is no Cormyrean law listed on the forums that prohibits this form of address in any way.

As I read it here: Laws

There are laws against impersonating nobles and royalty but there's nothing that even remotely suggests Nimuri is breaking the law in any way. Her address of another as a social superior cannot even be construed as "forced impersonation" by the fact that it is merely an address. She's not attempting to provide falsified evidence nor a disguise to prove that someone is or is not a lord. She's merely addressing someone based on the culture and customs in which she was raised (i.e. she's being true to her character). Naturally, in remaining true to her character I cannot fault others who take offense at her address since they're remaining true to their character...unless of course the offense their character perceives is based off an misinterpretation of the laws above - which is, in part, what I believe is going on. I'd like clarification on this, naturally, for the sake of convenience and comfort.

2. In-character differences of culture, opinion, belief, etc are going to happen. They should stay in-character.

This isn't really constrained to just Nimuri as I've had to deal with this on at least 3 different occasions already on the server. First, I want you all to know that I get it. You're as passionate about your characters as I am about mine, and therefore passionate about the effort you've put into making them believable. We're human. We make mistakes - sometimes we react a certain way with our character that others may think is a bit over the top, sometimes we don't react enough. We aren't perfect - none of us. If I make a mistake, I'd rather have it pointed out quickly so I can correct it, and for those who actually do that, thank you.

However, there is a very big difference in 'making a mistake in rp' and 'justifying my character's actions because I feel the need to' I will never do this - ever. If I am asked by a staff member or admin to justify why my character feels a certain way or does a certain thing, I will (just ask Korlash about the piles of text I've sent him about Nimuri's motivations). However, if you aren't a dm or admin (and that means logged onto the client) then I am not comfortable - nor willing to justify anything about my character oocly (whether that be why she greets people the way she does or how he thinks dragons will react will stack up to what they actually do) to you in tells, and I'd appreciate it if you not attempt to justify anything to me. That simple action takes in-character differences of opinion and makes them an ooc issue very quickly, and nobody wants that. Play your character how they'd react and leave it at that. If you need to send a tell ooc to justify what your character's doing or how they feel, then it's likely they're playing out a way that you're not comfortable with. If that's the case, though, that's still something you should deal with on your own. I cannot truly express how utterly uncomfortable I am when I get tells from players trying to justify/explain what their character does to me. It's completely immersion breaking and really takes me out of rp very quickly. Maybe I'm weird in this, I dunno.

To be clear here as well: I do not mind getting tells asking questions that do not relate to 'why does your character think/do this/that.' I enjoy ooc chat quite a bit, and I prefer to keep my character and myself separate in those realms. This is primarily because I'm actually a pretty social and friendly guy but I play some characters who are not. Worst of all: please do not send me tells about how to rp my character that drop all pretense that you're not attempting to force me into rping in a way that you personally feel is appropriate versus what I'm comfortable with. An example of this: "your character shouldn't do that because it's against the law." If my character is breaking the law, either they're aware of it and doing it anyway (perfectly valid rp) or they're not aware of it and should be informed in-character in such a way as leaves no doubt (a guard should tell them or they get locked up, etc). This kind of a tell from a player just comes off as snarky and snippy to me and is a quick way to get a similar response. If *I'm* not aware of it as a player, then isn't the onus on me to read the server rules and laws as I have shown I've done?

Anyway, not trying to be a jerk, but I thought I'd get this out there and see if anyone on the staff can chime in. I know different servers have different atmospheres, so this might be a good post to find out what the atmosphere is here. Maybe I'm the only one who hates being told how to play my character ooc or strongly dislikes others attempting to justify their characters to me ooc. Maybe I'm not. Chime in!

[daphne]

In general, IC things should be dealt with IC.  If someone does something you feel is 'wrong' you can almost always deal with it in an IC way.    

Arabel is a major trading cross-roads and there are going to be different customs, languages, terms and expressions used to a great extent.  It should not be surprising to encounter this in the adventurer population.  And it may well cause difficulties and conflict...in character.  That is very much like real-life situations that are similar.

As to the form of address, some characters on the server are very polite.  I've had some of my PC's 'miladied' numerous times, without any real basis in their actual heredity or social status.  Some of them protest in character ("Hey, I ain't no lady!"), others merely smile and nod. There is no law against addressing someone by any title whatsoever, to my knowledge. It is the actual -impersonation- of a noble that carries legal punishment.

[Arya]

Mmm.  One thing to keep in mind is that there are those who like to talk about what is going on in-game - so sometimes, they will inevitably seem like they are 'justifying' what their character is doing (myself included).  Just briefly mention that you do not like to talk about that stuff and most will obey.  Not everyone does this sort of thing, of course.  With that said, while everyone has their quirks, I would really hate to feel like I have to tread -super- carefully around people. It has drive me away from the server before when it felt like that.

Speaking of which...

There have been a few comments I have seen in the OOC room and in some tells I received that is starting to make me wary of that time coming up again.  And there are some people who are making condescending remarks enough to where they give a "my preferences/RP-is/are-better-than-thou" feel.  We are an RP server, but we are supposed to have fun, too.  And people should not feel like they are walking on egg shells.  

For the time, I have just tried to treat it as individuals not knowing how to be respectful when being direct and let it slide.  Something we all sometimes can work on. But I get annoyed when I am told how to RP things, myself. Or that my description is longer than 'it should be' or I feel talked down in tells because my character does not fit someone's OOC standards.    

So, if people are giving you crap OOCly for how your character acts, versus asking a question here or there when concerned, maybe that needs addressed to the admins as much as called out with the people doing it.   That is not cool at all.

Maybe the summer is making people more irritable.

~Arya

[sinisteromnibus]

May 25, 2014 17:25:42 GMT -5  @nonee said:

I am wondering if the situation with Nim is the one from earlier today, where she was addressing Alitha and Cinnia? If so - I guarantee nothing about that conversation was intended to be taken on an OOC level. If it was not about the conversation in the square with Alitha and Cinnia, then I apologize for butting into your thread.

You're in the clear, nonee. For the sake of keeping things from becoming a "so-and-so did this or did that" let's not worry about what may or may not have happened today. This post was a little while in coming since it's really more about the fact that I'm noticing a recurring trend that I'd like to put a stop to before it gets out of hand for my part.

If it eases your conscience, though, I can say that you're one of the players I haven't had this kind of problem with since coming here. I always find you don't have any problem keeping IC where it belongs, playing a convicted, convincing character, and still being a super friendly couch drood ooc.

And for the record, this post is not intended to call anyone specifically out - heck, I may be guilty of this myself at times without realizing it, but I wanted to throw up a post to see if anyone else has experienced this stuff and if I'm the only one as bothered by it as I am.

[dagesh]

Hey! Stop telling me how to RL!

To be fair, and really, no one has come up to Sophia like this.  And I pick her because she's the most extreme of my characters.  Why does she do something?  No one wants to know?  I dunno why this has never come up.  People just roll with whatever she does, sometimes characters get angry at her.   That's how it works I suppose.  

[Not Batman]

It should be stated that "Milord and Milady" are common ways of addressing people in that time period, not just nobles. "Lord and Lady" are the proper ways of addressing those of noble blood. Calling these nobles a Lord was because of not only their legal titles, but also due to a belief that noble blood was more pure, closer to the gods and thus, their birthright destined them to rule.

[Fire Wraith]

*Takes off Admin hat, puts on Adaric Crowley, Esquire, Lawyer of Suzail, hat*

It is an interesting question indeed, and upon further review of the laws under King Azoun IV, and as continued under the regency of his grandson, Azoun V, I have selected several laws that might be construed as applicable to the situation.  I shall review each in turn, from the order of greater to lesser severity.

The most serious is from the First Plaint, and carries a penalty of Death.  This is Impersonation of a Lord, and would apply not to the caller, but the callee.  In my review of existant case law, however, far more is needed than a simple polite address.  Indeed, I would extrapolate from past cases that one would need to actively present oneself as a Lord or Lady of the Realm, and attempt to exert that privilege.  Thus, I do not believe this would apply in this particular case.

The next law of consideration is from the Second plaint, and is a much more minor offense.  This is Blasphemy against a Local Lord.  Again, based on my examination of past case law, I do not believe it would apply in this instance, as the burden of proof for such an offense has been held to require tying the blasphemy affirmatively to the Lord or Lady in question, such as by name, mimicry, or other specific example.  To put another way, unless a random passerby would know that the speech or action was intended to defame that Lord, no offense has been committed.

Thus, I would advise that generalized, polite forms of address such as milord or milady are perfectly acceptable in day to day affairs, and perhaps could be distinguished with the more formal "My Lord" and "My Lady" when speaking to one of known station, though likely this sort of specificity would not be expected.  Rather, I would suggest that it is also better to presume a higher form of address, than to make the mistake of failing to show such respect in the necessary situation, as the above laws might indicate.

*Switches hats back again*

Short version, being overly polite in general terms is perfectly fine.

[Goat]

Interesting fact!

There is a big difference at some points in history of saying "milord" and "milady" versus "my lord" and "my lady."

Saying "milord" was often considered a marker that you were low class and usually uneducated, as the word "my" is not properly enunciated in a crisp fashion.

Hey, wow, that linguistic anthropology class I took in college does come in handy every now and then!  Woo!  That's $3,000 that wasn't completely wasted!

[Arya]

That is a fact! *Loves on linguistic anthropology, herself.*

Also, if you do not learn about those things in a university, you can learn from Game of Thrones. <.< Tywin Lannister was able to pick up that Arya was not a commoner when she used the latter, versus the former.  

I also use this knowledge when playing Daeatria.  She almost never uses contractions because of her class background.  Even when adopted, the folk were not 'lowborn.'  

I do not know what the issue was with folks and Nimuri, really.  I thought what she did was very appropriate for a courtesan who may not have possessed a higher upbringing.

Sincerely,
Arya