Stuff That Went Down, Voss, and Moving Forward

[sinisteromnibus]

So, CD, I'm back. Voss is back. Some people are happy, some are very much not so, and I'd like to have an open discourse on just what seems to be troubling those who aren't and what can be done to make you feel more comfortable around me, the player.

Before I get started, please understand this isn't a rant or a condemnation of anyone. I'm not picking a fight, and I definitely am not trying to continue any of the drama or difficulties that were surrounding me before I left to take my break. This is an open request from me, the player, to those who are dissatisfied with my presence here to talk with me about what's wrong because to be honest...I have no idea, and I think a lot of those who dislike me OOC have some kind of image of me that I never intended to put out there and that I certainly don't want to continue to perpetrate.


In any case, before I left there was a lot going on. We lost our home in the flood here and most of our belongings. It was a high-stress situation, and I'll be the first to admit that I didn't do a good job of handling that stress. In fact, I brought a lot of it to the server with me, and it ruined a lot of my fun, but more importantly it ruined the fun of many others. To those of you who were hurt at that time, I'm truly and deeply sorry. You didn't deserve that - not from my characters and not from me.

Taking things back farther, though. I understand that many think that Dom101 who played Bass and I are close OOCly or that I was or am somehow connected to him. Sadly, this is not the case as that player and I had a falling out over many In-character grievances shortly after Voss and Bass had their big falling out in-game. I have not spoken with that player in more than 2 years, and neither he nor his character have had any effect on my roleplay in longer than that. I say this because I'm aware that some are quite upset over Voss' behavior in-game, and to those of you hurt or offended by that behavior - again - I am truly sorry. It was my choice to play him in that manner long after it became apparent that it was upsetting many on an OOC level, and it was a foolish, inconsiderate choice that I should've been more mature than to make. I made mistakes, many of them. I -thought- I was roleplaying his alignment and heritage appropriately, and thought, too, that his coarseness, crudeness, and general jerkish nature were something appropriate for the server. I was wrong. I thought the story that I was creating with Voss was edgy and deep, but in reality it wasn't coming through that way in the roleplay with the majority of the players here. Naturally, people reacted to the way he was rped by wanting to get away from him - and rightfully so. No sense spending time around someone so offensive.

I don't know when or how it happened, but at some point, though, it wasn't about Voss anymore. People here were getting hurt and very upset and being made to feel very uncomfortable on an OOC level by me. I won't say I haven't had my clashes with certain individuals in the past, but I like to think I've always been willing to talk about problems and try to find compromises and solutions. I grew frustrated, though, when I was told by friends, DMs, and admins about the things others were saying about me out-of-character. I somehow had become seen as a bully, a powergamer, a jerk, and just a person nobody really wanted to deal with in any form or fashion. I'm not playing dumb when I say that I have no idea how this could've become what was thought of me especially when it was so many people I rarely interacted with (in my mind). That said, whether I understand or not why the horrible things that were said and thought about me were I still have a responsibility to own up to the pain my actions and words caused these people.

And so that's what this is. I want to own up to what's upsetting so many people. I want to make it right, but you have to give me the chance. Some of you have talked to me already - whether it was because you wanted to or because you had to. I hope that those conversations brought you some peace and eased some of your concerns in my regard, and I thank you for giving me that chance to make things right. Some of you, though, have refused to engage me on any level - IC or OOC. For you, I ask you - I beg you - please do not shut me out and continue to feel uncomfortable and afraid. I don't care if you ignore my characters - all of them. But I -do- care about how you must feel, because if it's anywhere near as bad as I have felt and do feel then I have to make it right for you because this sucks.

So here it is, a public forum. I hope to keep things peaceful, and I'm asking all those who I've hurt in the past or who are uncomfortable OOCly with me to please come to the table and talk to me so that I can find the solution that will allow both you and I to create our stories here without this drama, without this fear and awkward uncomfortable distance, and without suspicion of who is saying or doing what. Also, as this is a public, ooc post those of you who are worried about any form of IC reaction or retribution for anything you say here need not worry as I'm sure the admins would never tolerate such blatantly disrespectful behavior.

The only other thing I'd ask for this thread for those who wish to participate is that you come and post here not as admins, dms, or players but as people who enjoy a game and a community and who recognize there's a problem in it. We're all people, and we're all part of what makes CD great so we should come together to make sure everyone can feel included and secure in this space that - over the years - has come to mean so much for so many.

Thank you all for your time, and I hope I can fix what's broken for everyone, not just myself.

TO be rather frank and honest, because apparently I've an issue with that, the most of what I felt was annoyance and boredom.  it wasn't hurt, or whatever, it was an inability to fully immerse myself because I felt I could hurt someone.  Honestly, I find that a lot with CD, and game servers as a whole, but I manage somehow.  And, since your the first to do this, I think, ever... I want to take this time and apologize for whatever I did, I really don't know what this might've been, but I've a tendency to get annoyed easy and make snap judgements.  I've flaws, this is one of them.  I also have the ability to think through it, if I care to, and manage a situation I could resolve, should I find a way to do so.  I don't often find these things.

In the moments where I have annoying rp, I just tough it out and get it over with, having learned things of others, good things and bad things, and then overall, I can become better?  Well, somewhat anyway.  So...  for me.  My characters, really only one, has certain conditions I must play into, otherwise, things would turn out much differently.  Though, sometimes I surprise myself and think, XXX totally would've done this, wow.  Anyway, staying on topic, I was a confused mess, and recently, with the death of my father, It's taken life into perspective.  Grief is something that's radically impacted my life and I can't think of the innumerable ways in which I'm not the man I was, somehow survived, largely parts of me are changing, but I feel I've more patience now than I used to.  Well, sort of.  Tragic news, yes, but I'm also sad to hear of your flood and if I had any idea it was going on, but I didn't.

I would've changed I imagine, but what happened, has happened, and I'm ready to move ahead.  Does this mean our chars can't get into tirades, well no.  Maybe more creative ones?  I dunno.  We'll see.

[Darvins]

So first I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't understand real life stresses making you a bit less than ideal to be around in game, I've been through times like that, and it's a damned easy trap to fall into. As at first they, our characters, can make a good outlet. Had a terrible day, log onto your bitchy/bastardy character and channel some of that frustration, but when the stress doesn't go away, it stops being a healthy outlet, and becomes something that gets folks backs up, and often we don't even notice when we've slipped past that line I think. So yeah not going to hold grudges over that, because been there done that.

Second okay this is I think what I always say about such things, and it's more because looking back it's what I should have done myself with Valar in her truely nastiest days, and one of the things that can lead to a IC issue going OOC, lack of communication. When Voss Mouse and Erliza started fighting, at no point did I as a player receive any explanation oocly, leaving me with the impression that was swiftly feeling like every single interaction I was getting in the square whenever those two where around was a nasty one, was down to Erliza winning a staring contest, which felt very unsatisfying, and down right bullying. I can accept happily that was not your intention but, it's what it became in my eyes, making me angry at the both of you, and then angry at the Admins who seemed to be happy to allow it. Now I'm not claiming perfection, I've made the same mistakes in the past as I said with Valar, and it's one that is easy to fix, there's not even a need to change Voss, just remember to send people ooc tells saying 'Hey is this getting too much, and it's just my character really, no offence' make sure to leave folks an out, don't make them feel if they head into Arabel Central then if they see one of your chars names then it's going to be a nasty experience for them.

As it is through, I really have no desire to keep old grudges going if I can avoid it, none of us where perfect, if I was starting to feel frustrated I should have spoken up first, oocly said 'Hey can we have a few days off from all this.' I am starting to suspect maybe if I'd done that you'd have given my character the space they needed. Also I think once it started to feel ooc to me, I started to make it worse, and so for that I apologise back, all this is to say, yeah I'm willing to try and move past things.

[sinisteromnibus]

Jul 30, 2016 1:42:00 GMT -5 sornduskryn said:

TO be rather frank and honest, because apparently I've an issue with that, the most of what I felt was annoyance and boredom.  it wasn't hurt, or whatever, it was an inability to fully immerse myself because I felt I could hurt someone.  Honestly, I find that a lot with CD, and game servers as a whole, but I manage somehow.  And, since your the first to do this, I think, ever... I want to take this time and apologize for whatever I did, I really don't know what this might've been, but I've a tendency to get annoyed easy and make snap judgements.  I've flaws, this is one of them.  I also have the ability to think through it, if I care to, and manage a situation I could resolve, should I find a way to do so.  I don't often find these things.

In the moments where I have annoying rp, I just tough it out and get it over with, having learned things of others, good things and bad things, and then overall, I can become better?  Well, somewhat anyway.  So...  for me.  My characters, really only one, has certain conditions I must play into, otherwise, things would turn out much differently.  Though, sometimes I surprise myself and think, XXX totally would've done this, wow.  Anyway, staying on topic, I was a confused mess, and recently, with the death of my father, It's taken life into perspective.  Grief is something that's radically impacted my life and I can't think of the innumerable ways in which I'm not the man I was, somehow survived, largely parts of me are changing, but I feel I've more patience now than I used to.  Well, sort of.  Tragic news, yes, but I'm also sad to hear of your flood and if I had any idea it was going on, but I didn't.

I would've changed I imagine, but what happened, has happened, and I'm ready to move ahead.  Does this mean our chars can't get into tirades, well no.  Maybe more creative ones?  I dunno.  We'll see.

First of all, thanks for coming here and getting this out. To be honest myself, I haven't really experienced anything on an OOC level from yourself, Sorn. Our characters have had their moments IC, but I haven't really ever felt any OOC animosity. I'm very sorry to hear about your father as well. My own father has severe COPD and it got really bad this summer. He can't even go outside and recently I had to help my mom order an oxygen tank for him. I don't intend to compare my situation to your own, but the doctors are talking like he may have lung cancer, and we're all very scared. The way that whole thing makes me feel pales in comparison to losing a loved one, but I fear losing him every day.

As for your rp, if it matters I haven't really found your rp to be annoying on an OOC level, either. Sophia is a unique character and one who has been through a lot (and the one I've interacted with the most). ICly, my characters have always found her to be volatile, but that doesn't bother me. I know people like that in real life. Sometimes that volatility has made things a little difficult to engage in from an IC standpoint, but I've never felt like I couldn't approach the rp from an OOC standpoint if my character could work past the IC uncomfortableness.

In any case, thank you again for posting. I look forward to seeing you in-game and trying to be more creative myself in how my characters interact with yours.

[sinisteromnibus]

Jul 30, 2016 8:26:12 GMT -5 Darvins said:

So first I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't understand real life stresses making you a bit less than ideal to be around in game, I've been through times like that, and it's a damned easy trap to fall into. As at first they, our characters, can make a good outlet. Had a terrible day, log onto your bitchy/bastardy character and channel some of that frustration, but when the stress doesn't go away, it stops being a healthy outlet, and becomes something that gets folks backs up, and often we don't even notice when we've slipped past that line I think. So yeah not going to hold grudges over that, because been there done that.

Second okay this is I think what I always say about such things, and it's more because looking back it's what I should have done myself with Valar in her truely nastiest days, and one of the things that can lead to a IC issue going OOC, lack of communication. When Voss Mouse and Erliza started fighting, at no point did I as a player receive any explanation oocly, leaving me with the impression that was swiftly feeling like every single interaction I was getting in the square whenever those two where around was a nasty one, was down to Erliza winning a staring contest, which felt very unsatisfying, and down right bullying. I can accept happily that was not your intention but, it's what it became in my eyes, making me angry at the both of you, and then angry at the Admins who seemed to be happy to allow it. Now I'm not claiming perfection, I've made the same mistakes in the past as I said with Valar, and it's one that is easy to fix, there's not even a need to change Voss, just remember to send people ooc tells saying 'Hey is this getting too much, and it's just my character really, no offence' make sure to leave folks an out, don't make them feel if they head into Arabel Central then if they see one of your chars names then it's going to be a nasty experience for them.

As it is through, I really have no desire to keep old grudges going if I can avoid it, none of us where perfect, if I was starting to feel frustrated I should have spoken up first, oocly said 'Hey can we have a few days off from all this.' I am starting to suspect maybe if I'd done that you'd have given my character the space they needed. Also I think once it started to feel ooc to me, I started to make it worse, and so for that I apologise back, all this is to say, yeah I'm willing to try and move past things.

Thanks for posting, Darvins, and I agree with you on both your points above. I feel that this whole situation is uncomfortable for everyone because of repeated lack of communication and miscommunication all around. It's why I wanted to open things up like this so we can all move forward.

To address the issue of Voss, Mouse, and Erliza's history I'm sorry you had no OOC warning or direction in that particular situation. In truth, I wanted to avoid it, but I felt a bit pigeon-holed into only that outcome because Voss kept trying to get Erliza to stop insulting Mouse (which she may or may not have been intending, but that's how it came off to him) and his threats were just escalating the situation instead of diffusing it. Unfortunately, at that time in Voss' career that was the kind of character he was. I have - and he has - taken steps with Erliza to try and mend that bridge, but I completely understand her mistrust of him after that happened. One thing about the situation that does bother me, though, is that somehow the story changed and I have heard people claiming Voss killed her in that altercation when in fact he dropped her to bleeding (not even KO'd due to nonlethal being toggled on) before he stopped, backed off, and got axed by Derrick. This is also the reason he wasn't executed/exiled for murder or more harshly punished, just so everyone is aware. Again, that seems another part of the miscommunication issue. Anyway, IC aside, it was a failure on my part not to engage that whole situation OOCly with you so that we'd all be on the same page. I'm sorry it and subsequent interactions with Voss and Mouse made you feel so uncomfortable. It was not my intent in the least. I should also mention that the situation with Erliza was actually a lead-up to a DM questline Voss was involved with that further decreased the amount of time Voss was to spend in jail as a nobleman freed him to press him into doing some dirty business for his family. Unfortunately, the DM doing the questline (DM Sidhe for those who know her) got very busy with rl and college and was never able to continue the quest. The DMs/Admins can verify this via Sidhe's logs on the DM forums if anyone requests it, I'm sure.

As for your last point, it honestly sounds like you and I reacted exactly the same way to things. Instead of approaching one another and talking about how we felt we just kinda bottled things up, internalized it, and it festered and made us both feel worse and act worse towards one another. I certainly cannot fault you for how you felt when I was doing the same things, so please don't be too harsh on yourself in that department.

Thank you for posting and putting all this out. I hope as you do above that we can move past things and both have fun playing our characters and creating our stories, and I would like your characters to be part of the ones I make. I still remember the run to that hole of demons that Voss and Rashan had. That was actually pretty cool and was the first time that Voss - as a character - started to look at Rashan in a different light. I really wish I'd had more of a chance to rp a follow-up to that excursion, but unfortunately it didn't happen. Still, even then it made me hopeful that our characters will have interactions that are more OOCly comfortable in the future.

Thanks again for posting and for working with me to get past the communication issues plaguing the server a bit.

[Ogre Time Yay]

None of my character have had any experience with Voss, but I know really well what it's like to get dragged into drama and malicious behavior unexpectedly while not really wanting any part of it, both IC and OOC. I can see how some players got really turned off by it, it sucks, I went through that kind of business for so long, non-stop, that I left the server for a bit over a year and didn't even want to -think- about CD. It dominated everything RP that my character use to focus on, and it got to the point where folks where pointlessly pointing fingers at each other for unknown reasons. So my opinion on the whole thing is that... Well... No one should probably do that...

I mean some drama is fine, but when it gets to the point where that drama is making it so that no one is having fun with it, everyone could really do without it. Sure, we're RPing, sure we're all attempting to keep to character!
At the end of the day though, we're all playing a game, and we're playing it because we want to have fun, and not to be constantly reminded that "These two characters hate you for some reason, and are going to go out of their way to make sure others hate you as well, and eventually get to the point where there's a decent number of folks who don't even want to include you in anything anymore.", for example. It sucks... It really sucks,

There's a mindset that I heard another player present to me around the time I first started playing CD, and I've been aiming to follow it as much as I can. I won't say who it is unless that person wouldn't mind me saying it, simply out of respect, but he said in OOC something along the lines of "When players feel bad ass, everyone has fun." Basically, when players feel useful, feel included, feel like they aren't constantly being judged by some other character who is out to always find reasons to tell himself or herself that they are better than them, then everyone has fun. For example, the way I see how it should go down is that the Character and the Player should have two separate goals. If you're playing as a Neutral Evil character, that characters goal is to achieve an evil goal in the long run, but at the same time, the same player of that character will be (emphasis on the same time) aiming to make sure that whoever is tagging along with them, no matter who they are or what their alignment is, ends up taking a fun experience away from it all.

So for what it's worth, my suggestions are that you should give reasons to other players to find out what your character is like as a person, and to make them interested enough to dig deeper and find out more about their backstory, and lastly (but not least) try to include everyone who is wanting to be included.

Don't drive them away, don't make them think that they'll be head hunted and insulted the second they step into Arabel Central, hell it's why I've grown into the habit of avoiding Central sometimes, or Arabel altogether, or even attempting to start conversations with others without them starting it first.
Most players think their character is extremely interesting, but the trick is to prove to others that your character is as interesting as you see him or her. Just have fun with it man (and get others to have fun with it).

I have no issue with you, I wish I could say the same for some other folks I have had trouble with in the past, but things aren't always that simple. That said, the best thing you can do is what you did just now.

[sinisteromnibus]

Jul 30, 2016 10:03:28 GMT -5 sinisteromnibus said:

Thank you for posting and putting all this out. I hope as you do above that we can move past things and both have fun playing our characters and creating our stories, and I would like your characters to be part of the ones I make. I still remember the run to that hole of demons that Voss and Rashan had. That was actually pretty cool and was the first time that Voss - as a character - started to look at Rashan in a different light. I really wish I'd had more of a chance to rp a follow-up to that excursion, but unfortunately it didn't happen. Still, even then it made me hopeful that our characters will have interactions that are more OOCly comfortable in the future.

Thanks again for posting and for working with me to get past the communication issues plaguing the server a bit.

And just to clarify real quick here, because looking back I see now that the way I worded this might make it seem like I was implying Darvins and threeguesses are the same person (which to my knowledge they are not). I just wanted to provide the example with Rashan to illustrate how even when things appear to be going better there can still be a lot of OOC baggage that gets int he way of fun and how I hope Voss can have more interactions like that with others in the future.

[sinisteromnibus]

Jul 30, 2016 12:12:36 GMT -5 Ogre Time Yay said:

None of my character have had any experience with Voss, but I know really well what it's like to get dragged into drama and malicious behavior unexpectedly while not really wanting any part of it, both IC and OOC. I can see how some players got really turned off by it, it sucks, I went through that kind of business for so long, non-stop, that I left the server for a bit over a year and didn't even want to -think- about CD. It dominated everything RP that my character use to focus on, and it got to the point where folks where pointlessly pointing fingers at each other for unknown reasons. So my opinion on the whole thing is that... Well... No one should probably do that...

I mean some drama is fine, but when it gets to the point where that drama is making it so that no one is having fun with it, everyone could really do without it. Sure, we're RPing, sure we're all attempting to keep to character!
At the end of the day though, we're all playing a game, and we're playing it because we want to have fun, and not to be constantly reminded that "These two characters hate you for some reason, and are going to go out of their way to make sure others hate you as well, and eventually get to the point where there's a decent number of folks who don't even want to include you in anything anymore.", for example. It sucks... It really sucks,

There's a mindset that I heard another player present to me around the time I first started playing CD, and I've been aiming to follow it as much as I can. I won't say who it is unless that person wouldn't mind me saying it, simply out of respect, but he said in OOC something along the lines of "When players feel bad ass, everyone has fun." Basically, when players feel useful, feel included, feel like they aren't constantly being judged by some other character who is out to always find reasons to tell himself or herself that they are better than them, then everyone has fun. For example, the way I see how it should go down is that the Character and the Player should have two separate goals. If you're playing as a Neutral Evil character, that characters goal is to achieve an evil goal in the long run, but at the same time, the same player of that character will be (emphasis on the same time) aiming to make sure that whoever is tagging along with them, no matter who they are or what their alignment is, ends up taking a fun experience away from it all.

So for what it's worth, my suggestions are that you should give reasons to other players to find out what your character is like as a person, and to make them interested enough to dig deeper and find out more about their backstory, and lastly (but not least) try to include everyone who is wanting to be included.

Don't drive them away, don't make them think that they'll be head hunted and insulted the second they step into Arabel Central, hell it's why I've grown into the habit of avoiding Central sometimes, or Arabel altogether, or even attempting to start conversations with others without them starting it first.
Most players think their character is extremely interesting, but the trick is to prove to others that your character is as interesting as you see him or her. Just have fun with it man (and get others to have fun with it).

I have no issue with you, I wish I could say the same for some other folks I have had trouble with in the past, but things aren't always that simple. That said, the best thing you can do is what you did just now.

I appreciate your words and the advice. I've attempted in the past to try and give people a reason to be interested in Voss, but I think I screwed up in just making him too unapproachable in many respects without really realizing it. In the past, I faulted other players for their inability and desire to get to know Voss, but in reality I just made it kinda impossible for some people to handle him. Now, that may happen sometimes and it's nobody's fault or a bad thing, but where I made the mistake is when I knew these people were upset and offended and I reacted by getting defensive and withdrawing from them. I realize now that that made things infinitely worse because it broke all communication and left things to just fester on both sides.

I'd like to include everyone that I can in my rp - including players I've had difficulties or disagreements with in the past - and as you noted, that's why I brought this all here out in the open. So far, I'm really happy with the response. I feel like for the first time in a long time some real progress is being made to make things better for everyone. I like what that player from a while ago told you about everyone feeling like a badass and being useful, and I think I can do better in that area as well.

So, thanks again for the advice and for posting here. I appreciate it.

[Deleted]

I debated long and hard about responding here.  Since you're asking for a "non-admin" response from an admin here goes.

For most people, as you're seeing, this kind of thing is exactly what is needed to begin rebuilding the trust you're looking for.

However.

There are those of us who, quite frankly, deserve better.  Those of us who put up with not one, not two, but repeated and consistent harassment, insults, passive-aggresive baiting, etc not from Voss but from you as a player.

Some of you, though, have refused to engage me on any level - IC or OOC. For you, I ask you - I beg you - please do not shut me out and continue to feel uncomfortable and afraid.

How can we not?  Prior attempts at resolution or mediation escalated the harassment and bullying behaviors to the point where almost everyone on the receiving end of this quit the server in some manner.  While I want to credit everyone with the ability to learn from prior mistakes and grow, rebuilding the level of trust required takes time.  It's not going to be easy, it's not going to be immediate, and it's not something you can force to happen.  In fact, for some of us, it may not happen.  That is, quite simply, a honest consequence to your prior actions.

I'm not playing dumb when I say that I have no idea how this could've become what was thought of me especially when it was so many people I rarely interacted with (in my mind). That said, whether I understand or not why the horrible things that were said and thought about me were I still have a responsibility to own up to the pain my actions and words caused these people.

To say that you don't understand is naive and self-deluding at best.  You acted aggressively toward multiple players, leveling accusations and insults in equal portions to the point where even attempting conversations was cause for mockery, doubt, and ridicule.  Your language and attitude in every instance was arrogant, with an outright refusal to acknowledge your own role in your situation.  These were not instances limited to the end of your playtime last time.  These instances began long before, and developed into a consistent pattern.  Other players took note when their friends were targeted and on the receiving end of your anger.  Those of us who attempted to intervene and mediate, often at your insistence, instead ended up in an unfair "us vs them" mindset that you created.  Either we were for you or against you, and damn anyone who didn't outright support your every action.

Those consistent negative interactions led to a toxic reputation.

It's going to take time, action, and patience before many of us will be able to consider moving past it.  That may hurt you, and it may not be what you want to hear, but after months of being on the receiving end of your anger myself... not to mention the incredibly insulting, derogatory manner you treated me at the end in spite of how much I was even then trying to help you... I am not willing to put myself through that again.  I cannot.  It dragged me into a very negative place mentally that I cannot afford to return to.  And I know, after multiple other conversations, that my experience is not isolated... and that I am not the only one who feels this way.

Now then, as an admin:  We try to give everyone a second chance.  I'm glad for your sake that you're attempting to move on and mend burned bridges.  In that, I wish you the best.

[Edge]

I really have nothing to add that Bella hasn't already said, so consider this just an echo of everything she posted from me.

[Not Batman]

I initially was going to leave this thread alone until I saw Bella's post.

I'm one of those people who gave you change after chance and each time was just met with more vitriol. The harassment I had seen from you was something I could never condone, or sit idly by while it happened. I knew a few players who would literally nigh vomit from anxiety when you had logged on due to the amount of abuse they had faced. At times, their treatment was looked at not only as unacceptable in a game, but unacceptable towards another human being. You admit to wanting to try and making things better, and that is fine, but I gave you one chance, two chances, three chances and every time I was felt feeling like the fool for telling people that you "want to change and be friendlier".

After an admin moderated discussion with you, I was prepared to give you yet another chance. I stayed clear because I wanted to let things settle and the flames die down, but the next thing I hear out of you is a rather spiteful bit of criticism on the forums and even more in other mediums. I hadn't talked to you since but had attempted to stick my neck out for you and defend you and got repaid with once again feeling like people don't change. I'm one of those people who are debating leaving over your return just in the hope that it might calm things, and in part I have left over you before.

In regards to wanting to make things better with others, the people you upset the most and acted the worst towards have yet to see any kind of attempt made to make them feel better about you being back. If you are really honest about wanting to fix your previous mistakes, you need to start with the people you upset the most. All I am seeing in this post is that you are claiming ignorance to your own wrong doings, and as Bella put it before me (kudos to her) it is not an excuse and frankly (pardon my french) it's bullshit. There are going to be people who don't want to talk to you, who don't want to make things better because we've tried before and are sick of trying and tired of handing you the rope to hang us with.

You spread a lot of very hurtful lies about people here, myself included. You've done harm to peoples reputations and made low blows that shouldn't have been thrown, but you did. So pardon my honesty, because I refuse to sit quiet anymore and just leave whenever problems come my way on this server, but I am one of those people who will not give you another chance to make me feel like shit. I will not sit around and let it happen to good people who are here to have fun. We, as a community, have been incredibly generous to you and Clockwork, and that generosity has been returned with harassment, insults, and having to stop playing a game we all love with our friends.

[Support]

Chiming in to remind people that NWN as a community is a very small, dying breed. As a newer player, it is already extremely hard to find people to do things with and most of the servers just aren't for me because either there is: a long catch up experience which is watered down by many hours of solo play(I still like to play other games for solo-enjoyment), groups that feel strongly toward one another one way or another, people who are very sensitive to change, or people who are very sensitive in general. I just don't have the time to learn a new setting, either, so, it's mostly FR servers for me. Hyper sensitivity is why I tend to avoid forums these days.

I say this because most servers are empty. CD is blessed enough to have the average player base it does after so long. These two players have been kind to me so far ICly and OOCly, and I appreciate that. It means nothing to any of you who may have experienced grief, but sometimes the more mature thing is to look passed personal grievances and look forward to the health of your community. Some people really just want the best for the server, and the best way they can offer that is either critique on the forums, looking out for others who are not comfortable voicing their opinion, or playing their character as they see best to bring vibrance to our pastime. How people act can offend someone or hurt their feelings, but it's best to be transparent about those feelings and speak with the person in a level-headed manner that's not brief; and I see that's what you have done in response to OP's request.

I look forward to RPing with each of you, I just hope that I don't see any of this bleed ICly. Fracturing an already small playerbase endangers more than just the setting. Please remain level-headed and kind is all I can ask. Seeing these kinds of threads as a newer player can be disheartening.

[Deleted]

Since it seems to have been missed, or maybe unclear:

I'm thankful for the maturity and willingness to have a discussion.  I am thankful for the beginning of mending things, and the willingness to do so.  I'm glad you (S.O.) are attempting to apologize and help contribute positively to the server.  I'm just not there yet, and not sure if/when I will be.  And that's okay.  Each person has to be accountable for their own fun and enjoyment to a degree.

We don't all have to like each other in order to play (respectfully) together.

[sinisteromnibus]

Jul 30, 2016 18:19:45 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

I debated long and hard about responding here.  Since you're asking for a "non-admin" response from an admin here goes.

For most people, as you're seeing, this kind of thing is exactly what is needed to begin rebuilding the trust you're looking for.

However.

There are those of us who, quite frankly, deserve better.  Those of us who put up with not one, not two, but repeated and consistent harassment, insults, passive-aggresive baiting, etc not from Voss but from you and Clockwork as players.

Some of you, though, have refused to engage me on any level - IC or OOC. For you, I ask you - I beg you - please do not shut me out and continue to feel uncomfortable and afraid.

How can we not?  Prior attempts at resolution or mediation escalated the harassment and bullying behaviors to the point where almost everyone on the receiving end of this quit the server in some manner.  While I want to credit everyone with the ability to learn from prior mistakes and grow, rebuilding the level of trust required takes time.  It's not going to be easy, it's not going to be immediate, and it's not something you can force to happen.  In fact, for some of us, it may not happen.  That is, quite simply, a honest consequence to your prior actions.

I'm not playing dumb when I say that I have no idea how this could've become what was thought of me especially when it was so many people I rarely interacted with (in my mind). That said, whether I understand or not why the horrible things that were said and thought about me were I still have a responsibility to own up to the pain my actions and words caused these people.

To say that you don't understand is naive and self-deluding at best.  You acted aggressively toward multiple players, leveling accusations and insults in equal portions to the point where even attempting conversations was cause for mockery, doubt, and ridicule.  Your language and attitude in every instance was arrogant, with an outright refusal to acknowledge your own role in your situation.  These were not instances limited to the end of your playtime last time.  These instances began long before, and developed into a consistent pattern.  Other players took note when their friends were targeted and on the receiving end of your anger.  Those of us who attempted to intervene and mediate, often at your insistence, instead ended up in an unfair "us vs them" mindset that you created.  Either we were for you or against you, and damn anyone who didn't outright support your every action.

Those consistent negative interactions led to a toxic reputation.

It's going to take time, action, and patience before many of us will be able to consider moving past it.  That may hurt you, and it may not be what you want to hear, but after months of being on the receiving end of your anger myself... not to mention the incredibly insulting, derogatory manner you treated me at the end in spite of how much I was even then trying to help you... I am not willing to put myself through that again.  I cannot.  It dragged me into a very negative place mentally that I cannot afford to return to.  And I know, after multiple other conversations, that my experience is not isolated... and that I am not the only one who feels this way.

Now then, as an admin:  We try to give everyone a second chance.  I'm glad for your sake that you're attempting to move on and mend burned bridges.  In that, I wish you the best.

I typed up a very long-worded response to the above, but I will not post it.

I appreciate you coming to this open forum to post your grievance, Bella.

Thank you for your time.

[sinisteromnibus]

Jul 30, 2016 21:02:03 GMT -5  @belladonna said:

Since it seems to have been missed, or maybe unclear:

I'm thankful for the maturity and willingness to have a discussion.  I am thankful for the beginning of mending things, and the willingness to do so.  I'm glad you (S.O.) are attempting to apologize and help contribute positively to the server.  I'm just not there yet, and not sure if/when I will be.  And that's okay.  Each person has to be accountable for their own fun and enjoyment to a degree.

We don't all have to like each other in order to play (respectfully) together.

This is a very true sentiment, and I'm glad you clarified. I did not read this in your original post.