Let's talk about the Violet Flame and the Enclave

[The Red Mage]

I know we've had this discussion in the past, but I wanted to ressurect the topic to get fresh ideas and takes from new players and veterans alike. My issue with the Violet Flame, even though I think it is a great faction with potential, is the copy pasta done to the shop from the Enclave. I understand that this was originally done as an alternative to characters who would refuse to shop at the Enclave. However, this alternative has made many new players and old like never visit the Enclave or give the Red Wizard faction an approach to merchantiling or RP regarding a major facet of their organization. I've asked players to meet Marziima at the Enclave to discuss business before, and even though they were level 10-15, they didn't even know where it was. I find that a little shameful. The whole purpose of introducing a Red Wizard enclave into this setting is not only so people have the opportunity to play a Red Wizard, but it is to introduce a moral dilemma, one that has been neutered by the Violet Flame's identical and superior selection of magical goods. I believe it has minimized the potential for characters to have conflict, morally, or otherwise by eliminating the choices they would have to make to either avoid the Enclave or find their wares somewhere else, at a higher price or by scribe.

What I would suggest is that the Griffin Hill(and hopefully, soon to be, Marsember) and Violet Flame shops be adjusted to reflect these choices. Introducing a Red Wizard enclave into a setting should introduce an uncompetitive retail outlet for cheap magical wares. There are thousands of Red Wizards stations across the realm who do nothing but craft and ship wares around, especially in the current timeline of the server where the faction shifts focuses to more finacially minded goals. Merchandise travels in and out of countries to keep their presense and stock filled to maximize profits. Why is it that the local mom and pop shop has completely overran this force? Why is it that their wares are identical and their prices cheaper?

I suggest that the Red Wizard shops focus more on cheap magical goods, things that do not scale well into tiers. Their prices are lower than the shops in Cormyr, but their selection, beyond personal request, does not cater to more experienced or powerful wizards. This is where the Flame comes in. It operates as an Arcane college, of sorts. A learning institute. Why does the campus bookstore sell textbooks and paper cheaper than Walmart? I would rather consider the Enclaves as a general, cheap, and low item leveled novelty store where the majority of customers reside while the Violet Flame is where people go to find things to learn, study, and purchase to elevate them to the next level. Perhaps they could sell similiar items, but the prices shouldn't be equal or lower. I simply don't know how it is possible. It should be inflated.

Ideas? Opposing viewpoints?

[Valimar Dragonbane]

From a level standpoint, isn't Griffin Hill the place with the absurdly difficult mine/dungeon?  I seem to recall duerger there, and that they're extremely difficult but that's about it.  I seldom go out there, because there's nothing to do; or when I do go to Griffin Hill, it's simply to use it as a brief stopping off point before gallivanting to the Ogre Lord's Redoubt.  If I'm remembering the path correctly, that is.

From a shop standpoint, I thought that the two were virtually identical save one or two of the knowledge bonus books you can find in the misc. tab of the merchant's shop.  You mentioned Marsember - is there a Red Wizard Enclave there as well?  My lore of FR is pretty iffy, at best.

[The Red Mage]

Unless that mine in Griffin Hill has been recently updated, it's empty. A few worgs and bandits are outside of the city limits.

They are identical. The original Violet Flame shop was a copy paste from the Enclave. It even had Red Wizard items in it for a while until it was updated. Then it was updated to have a wider selection of things, and the cost of scrolls there are very often cheaper than you can get at the Enclave.

There may not be an enclave in Marsember, canonically, but through RP, Marziima managed to strike a deal with the Council and the Lady of Marsember to expand there when Black did his whole slaughter all Red Wizards RP. It's not concrete yet, but things were set in motion before the DM went on hiatus.

[aazonis]

I agree. The two factions represent two differing viewpoint on the role of magic and its uses. The same spells and items should not be available at each shop. One thing that has always seemed peculiar about this server is how every attempt is made to impose the consequences of playing an evil character but the consequences a good aligned character faces are conveniently forgotten. I'm not saying there should be an extreme difference between the two stores but there needs to be some reflection of the factions' moral attitudes.

[Vincent07]

I'm not opposed to shop updates, but each 'shop' is 4 separate merchant inventories. (one per tier)  So adjusting them is a LOT of work.

[Masque]

I would be happy to work on the Flame store. Although I am happy with a lot of the stock items and I think the two should share the 'essential' items and differ in other ways. Player input and goals is partly the reason the Flame stands as an alternative to the Enclave for the more 'moral' adventurer.

Potentially PM me with some ideas or post them here as to how the two can differ?

[The Red Mage]

Apr 4, 2014 20:58:12 GMT -5 Masque said:

The way that alternative was implemented though completely exiled the Enclave altogether. No one goes there. -I- don't even buy scrolls from there.


I have no idea why it keeps eating your quote.

The Red Mage wrote: I suggest that the Red Wizard shops focus more on cheap magical goods, things that do not scale well into tiers. Their prices are lower than the shops in Cormyr, but their selection, beyond personal request, does not cater to more experienced or powerful wizards. This is where the Flame comes in. It operates as an Arcane college, of sorts. A learning institute. Why does the campus bookstore sell textbooks and paper cheaper than Walmart? I would rather consider the Enclaves as a general, cheap, and low item leveled novelty store where the majority of customers reside while the Violet Flame is where people go to find things to learn, study, and purchase to elevate them to the next level. Perhaps they could sell similiar items, but the prices shouldn't be equal or lower. I simply don't know how it is possible. It should be inflated.

Both stores having all the "essential" items is what caused the problem in the first place. There's no reason for even the most amoral adventurers to pass up the selection and prices at the Flame.

[Masque]

Hmm. I see your point and I do very much sympathise with the Red Wizards role play it is a little shade of grey in an otherwise fairly black and white setting. They're like Nestle or Coca-Cola (to a much bigger extent) they are immoral individuals but their products are just too convenient.

My only objection is that a lot of the reason for the store was that a lot of players resented having to make that choice so took positive action against it. Now the Flame has waned over the years and potentially lost its source of cheap, cheap scrolls however I would object to it being relegated to novelty shop.

So is there a sufficient compromise? I have no real problem with the Flame being more expensive than the Enclave.

[The Red Mage]

That was great roleplay though. I could sit in the Enclave and RP with adventurers who came in and begrudingly bought scrolls from us. But that angle has pretty much gone away, and we have players giving away rare items and hordes of gold, so it's hard to take the personal merchant angle as well.

I'd rather the Enclave be a cheap, warehouse, buy in builk store with novelty items as well(since Thay is really far away from Cormyr).

The Violet Flame has a larger collection of high level mages than the Enclave in Cormyr does, so you could focus on more powerful stuff. Have your shops scale harder into higher tiers while the Enclave really only expands it's "novelty" collection. It keeps low level scrolls.

That and let the Enclave only sell Teleport Scrolls. That'll do it. Haha.

[Masque]

Sounds like a decent compromise.

Although we might get lynched by the adventuring mobs if we remove the teleport scrolls!

[dagesh]

The Violet Flame (VF) has a good number of staves and wands but I always find most of them either lacking or being overall unnecessary.  Perhaps remove enchanted items and shift them over to The Enclave (TE).  Let TE provide rings, staves, wands, rods, necklaces and the like while VF focuses on scrolls.

Consider this, there is a potion maker, a magic shop, and VF in the same city. Oh and don't forget the Raven's Plume.  RPly this makes complete sense.  A large city would have those things.  Can Suzail boast Arabel's magic shops?  Since Arabel is realistically a population of 20-30 active people (an estimate) or at least the hub for activity, perhaps the gnome and the magic shop are purchased and moved to TE.

Addition: Is there a way to find TE for brand new people?  Maybe a NPC Red Wizard acting as sign post outside VF?

[The Red Mage]

They would never let a NPC Red Wizard loiter outside the VF.

It's in Griffin Hill. You take the Caravan from North Arabel, enter the center, walk the path, go up the stairs, across the bridge, down the stairs, up the stairs, and there you are!

[dagesh]

Apr 5, 2014 10:07:02 GMT -5 The Red Mage said:

There would never let a NPC Red Wizard loiter outside the VF.

Good point.  Perhaps we could use a bulletin board in Arabel central with a few "to do"s and an ad for TE's wares.

Overall there's a whole lotta magic shops in Arabel.

[The Red Mage]

That's a good idea. We could pay the Eyes and Ears to put up a little advertisement on their bulletin board.

[dagesh]

I'm in what I think the place is now but there's no merchant, just a couple angry dudes next to a door.